Alexander backs independence referendum in shock U-turn
Robbie Dinwoodie: "Scottish Labour is in its worst constitutional mess for a decade"
Douglas Fraser: "Why did Wendy perform an acrobatic U-turn?"
Labour leader Wendy Alexander yesterday backed a referendum on Scottish independence, in a major U-turn intended to call Alex Salmond's "bluff".
Her move represents a sharp change in Labour's response to the SNP poll surge, and its timing was a surprise to colleagues.
It came as Gordon Brown yesterday sought to stabilise his battered authority at Westminster, following poor Labour results in council elections across England and Wales. In TV interviews, the Prime Minister admitted mistakes and said he understood people's concerns about rising food and petrol prices: "I feel the hurt they feel," he said. He hinted the planned fuel tax rise this autumn will be shelved.
Ms Alexander's abrupt shift from opposing to supporting a referendum follows what she called "tactical discussions" within the party about putting the SNP administration under pressure on its referendum proposal.
Declaring support for a poll during this parliamentary session, she drew criticism of "panic" from her unionist allies as well as Nationalists.
Having previously argued a referendum would be a distraction and that it played to the SNP's "obsession", the U-turn has been discussed with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, though not agreed with him.
An insider at Holyrood suggested the abrupt move resulted from Ms Alexander's frustration that the Prime Minister has been slow to commit himself to a strategy on responding to the SNP.
Other MSPs were not aware the U-turn was to be announced yesterday. This came in a BBC interview, after Ms Alexander accused Mr Salmond of running scared of bringing his referendum plan before parliament.
LibDems rounded on their Labour allies on the constitution, saying Ms Alexander was
panicking after Thursday's bad election results south of the border, with her new position based "on tactics not principle".
Mr Salmond said that the parties were "starting to crack", warning that if unionist parties did not support a referendum,
he would make it "a dominant, transcending issue in the 2011 election campaign".
© All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without
permission is prohibited.
Posted by: democrate, central Scotland on 11:51pm Sun 4 May 08
am i hallucinating?
Posted by: Kadok, West End on 11:53pm Sun 4 May 08
Alexander gave Glenn Campbell a huge exclusive and he didn't notice. Poor Glenn.
Alexander has lost the plot. Labour will start fighting like rabid ferrets.
Yes Wendy, bring it on.
Alexander gave Glenn Campbell a huge exclusive and he didn't notice. Poor Glenn.
Alexander has lost the plot. Labour will start fighting like rabid ferrets.
Yes Wendy, bring it on.
Posted by: David on 12:02am Mon 5 May 08
[bold]Mugabe she ain't. Wots her game?[/bold]
Mugabe she ain't. Wots her game? Posted by: Astonished, Inverclyde on 12:03am Mon 5 May 08
There will be a lot Unionist folk asking why did they unquestioningly defend the " no need for a referendum" position ? The "there will never be a referendum" in Scotland position.
Ms. Alexander has just made complete fools of you all, I feel so sorry for you that I won't mention you by name.
Such loyalty (And although I disagree with you, the Labour posters have shown extreme loyalty) deserves some acknowledgement, possibly an indication that things have changed - However Wendy has just kicked you all in the teeth.
Of course, some of you may decide that you have had enough. This is the best example I have ever seen of how much Labour takes Scotland for granted.
The referendum now looks likely - Ms Alexander will remain unpopular.
There will be a lot Unionist folk asking why did they unquestioningly defend the " no need for a referendum" position ? The "there will never be a referendum" in Scotland position.
Ms. Alexander has just made complete fools of you all, I feel so sorry for you that I won't mention you by name.
Such loyalty (And although I disagree with you, the Labour posters have shown extreme loyalty) deserves some acknowledgement, possibly an indication that things have changed - However Wendy has just kicked you all in the teeth.
Of course, some of you may decide that you have had enough. This is the best example I have ever seen of how much Labour takes Scotland for granted.
The referendum now looks likely - Ms Alexander will remain unpopular.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly, Scotland on 12:11am Mon 5 May 08
There won't be a referendum soon as they would have to concede a referendum on Europe and that is not what Brown wants to do before the next UK election. It would cause more problems for Labour.
There won't be a referendum soon as they would have to concede a referendum on Europe and that is not what Brown wants to do before the next UK election. It would cause more problems for Labour.
Posted by: Proud to be Scottish, Glasgow on 12:12am Mon 5 May 08
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse.
Now is the time to shoot the nationalist fox. It has taken longer than some of us had hoped for the leadsership to get the nats into the cross-sights.
Go on Alex call a referndum now, that won't happen though will it?
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse.
Now is the time to shoot the nationalist fox. It has taken longer than some of us had hoped for the leadsership to get the nats into the cross-sights.
Go on Alex call a referndum now, that won't happen though will it?
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 12:14am Mon 5 May 08
I think Ms Alexander will be getting guided by her brother, he will be advising her that she can still suceed in an indepenedent Scotland and perhaps maybe get him and Ms Cairns in through the back door.
So it looks like she is out for Glory!
I think Ms Alexander will be getting guided by her brother, he will be advising her that she can still suceed in an indepenedent Scotland and perhaps maybe get him and Ms Cairns in through the back door.
So it looks like she is out for Glory!
Posted by: ratzo on 12:15am Mon 5 May 08
It'll be interesting to hear what Calman will say now that his big job on the wendy commission is officially redundant.
It'll be interesting to hear what Calman will say now that his big job on the wendy commission is officially redundant.
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 12:15am Mon 5 May 08
Sorry Ms Cairns should have read Mr Cairns.
I think.
Sorry Ms Cairns should have read Mr Cairns.
I think.
Posted by: redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 12:16am Mon 5 May 08
polls matter. the snp at 45% is a tipping point. england has spoken and said labour is on the nose, at least with 35% voting it means they have a hardcore of 8 or 9% of the WHOLE POPULATION prepared to vote for them. which is truly pathetic.
labour needs their old core vote who do not want independence but who want further powers back on board. this is about 10% of scotland in my view. i think this change if pitched as concern based on growing calmouring for greater independence / powers will fool record readers / bbc viewers who they are aiming for.
being negative the whole time is and has been a recipe for disaster, the nagging whining b... approach did not work, along with perceived corruption in london and edinburgh and locally, so a change was needed. that it was the basis of their party means it is a panic brought about by fear of total annihilation. labour has lost england, and softened markedly in wales, so it needs to get scotland back and then go for england again.
i also think the diddy committe on devolution said it is impossible to discuss the future without looking at the big bear in the corner of the room, independence, although that then means the brief is similar to salmond's. rendering a separate committe useless.
salmond should say now that their brief is the same they are welcom eon the overall conversation, assuming they willa ccept some snp people so it can have a truly national approach. how can they refuse based on this u-turn? they either wish to look at independence as an option or they do not. this is from a labour perspective only of course.
what the tory and libs think now is hard to judge. can we assume that the comission brief will be extended to match alexander's brave new vision? or will the tories continue to clamour for a 70's approach to devolution, i.e. try and scupper it by engaging in a talkfest.
polls matter. the snp at 45% is a tipping point. england has spoken and said labour is on the nose, at least with 35% voting it means they have a hardcore of 8 or 9% of the WHOLE POPULATION prepared to vote for them. which is truly pathetic.
labour needs their old core vote who do not want independence but who want further powers back on board. this is about 10% of scotland in my view. i think this change if pitched as concern based on growing calmouring for greater independence / powers will fool record readers / bbc viewers who they are aiming for.
being negative the whole time is and has been a recipe for disaster, the nagging whining b... approach did not work, along with perceived corruption in london and edinburgh and locally, so a change was needed. that it was the basis of their party means it is a panic brought about by fear of total annihilation. labour has lost england, and softened markedly in wales, so it needs to get scotland back and then go for england again.
i also think the diddy committe on devolution said it is impossible to discuss the future without looking at the big bear in the corner of the room, independence, although that then means the brief is similar to salmond's. rendering a separate committe useless.
salmond should say now that their brief is the same they are welcom eon the overall conversation, assuming they willa ccept some snp people so it can have a truly national approach. how can they refuse based on this u-turn? they either wish to look at independence as an option or they do not. this is from a labour perspective only of course.
what the tory and libs think now is hard to judge. can we assume that the comission brief will be extended to match alexander's brave new vision? or will the tories continue to clamour for a 70's approach to devolution, i.e. try and scupper it by engaging in a talkfest.
Posted by: Awaab Raja, EDINBURGH on 12:17am Mon 5 May 08
We do not have to wait until 2010 to have a referendum as envisaged by the SNP. We can have a referendum within a few months.
Wendy Alexander and the Labour Party should propose an immediate referendum and challenge the SNP MSPs to support such a move.
Just watch the SNP refuse to give the Scots a referendum thereby denying Scots a say on their constitutional future.
Scots demand an immediate referendum. [italic]italic[/italic]
We do not have to wait until 2010 to have a referendum as envisaged by the SNP. We can have a referendum within a few months.
Wendy Alexander and the Labour Party should propose an immediate referendum and challenge the SNP MSPs to support such a move.
Just watch the SNP refuse to give the Scots a referendum thereby denying Scots a say on their constitutional future.
Scots demand an immediate referendum.
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 12:18am Mon 5 May 08
Now it's Sir Ek's turn to delay Bendy Wendy. He will call a referendum when HE decides. Prior to the election win he said they would first prove they could govern Scotland well and then call for a referendum in 2010.
You can bet Bendy Wendy and all the Unionists will be demanding a referendum immediately. Tough - LET THEM WAIT, and let them watch the SNP rise to new records in the Opinion Polls.
Now it's Sir Ek's turn to delay Bendy Wendy. He will call a referendum when HE decides. Prior to the election win he said they would first prove they could govern Scotland well and then call for a referendum in 2010.
You can bet Bendy Wendy and all the Unionists will be demanding a referendum immediately. Tough - LET THEM WAIT, and let them watch the SNP rise to new records in the Opinion Polls.
Posted by: doonhamer on 12:20am Mon 5 May 08
Panic move by a panicked party leader.
Someone explain to me how Wendy will force a referendum on her timetable. Can she propose legislation? NO! Will the Tories work with her to let Labour off the hook? NOT LIKELY!
The SNP manifesto promised a referendum in 2010 after proving to the Scottish electorate their mettle. The Scottish electorate agreed and voted in the SNP as the government.
Labour's manifesto opposed a referendum. So here we have a bwoken pwomith from wee Wendy.
Alex should introduce a referendum bill in the Parliament with a vote date of 2010 and with only two options. He should then indicate that the vote is a matter of confidence.
Wendy can then agree with Alex or force an election. I am sure that both the SNP and the Tories would be happy to have a Scottish election right now.
Panic move by a panicked party leader.
Someone explain to me how Wendy will force a referendum on her timetable. Can she propose legislation? NO! Will the Tories work with her to let Labour off the hook? NOT LIKELY!
The SNP manifesto promised a referendum in 2010 after proving to the Scottish electorate their mettle. The Scottish electorate agreed and voted in the SNP as the government.
Labour's manifesto opposed a referendum. So here we have a bwoken pwomith from wee Wendy.
Alex should introduce a referendum bill in the Parliament with a vote date of 2010 and with only two options. He should then indicate that the vote is a matter of confidence.
Wendy can then agree with Alex or force an election. I am sure that both the SNP and the Tories would be happy to have a Scottish election right now.
Posted by: DougtheDug on 12:21am Mon 5 May 08
[quote]...the U-turn has been discussed with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, though not agreed with him.[/quote]
Not agreed with him? Gordon Brown is so weak and despised that even Ms. Alexander is cutting the puppet strings on something so fundamental to the British nationalist Labour party as the union.
I wonder if she agreed this move with the rank and, well, rank in the rest of the Scottish Parliamentary Labour group or with the rest of the Labour Party in Scotland.
I never thought the day would come when we'd get a referendum but it's gettin close.
Thanks Wendy, but Nicol (Tantrums) Stephen is going to be beeling and Head Girl Goldie will be most disappointed.
...the U-turn has been discussed with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, though not agreed with him.
Not agreed with him? Gordon Brown is so weak and despised that even Ms. Alexander is cutting the puppet strings on something so fundamental to the British nationalist Labour party as the union.
I wonder if she agreed this move with the rank and, well, rank in the rest of the Scottish Parliamentary Labour group or with the rest of the Labour Party in Scotland.
I never thought the day would come when we'd get a referendum but it's gettin close.
Thanks Wendy, but Nicol (Tantrums) Stephen is going to be beeling and Head Girl Goldie will be most disappointed.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:24am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Proud to be Scottish[/bold] wrote:
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse.
Now is the time to shoot the nationalist fox. It has taken longer than some of us had hoped for the leadsership to get the nats into the cross-sights.
Go on Alex call a referndum now, that won't happen though will it?[/quote] ha ha ha ha ha - anymore cliches for us PtBS?
Shooting Unionist Elephants?
Finger on the Button? [bold]Kaboom![/bold] - Metldown process initiated
ha ha ha ha ha
This has to be the ultimate desperation from Wendy, nothing more to grasp at, very likely that brown won't be in power in 3-6 months time after the 10p rebels get him, the 42 days rebels get him, a by-election failure and ongoing 'communication' problems.......
Let's wait this one out, a referendum in 2011 will be just fine.....
Proud to be Scottish wrote:
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse.
Now is the time to shoot the nationalist fox. It has taken longer than some of us had hoped for the leadsership to get the nats into the cross-sights.
Go on Alex call a referndum now, that won't happen though will it?
ha ha ha ha ha - anymore cliches for us PtBS?
Shooting Unionist Elephants?
Finger on the Button?
Kaboom! - Metldown process initiated
ha ha ha ha ha
This has to be the ultimate desperation from Wendy, nothing more to grasp at, very likely that brown won't be in power in 3-6 months time after the 10p rebels get him, the 42 days rebels get him, a by-election failure and ongoing 'communication' problems.......
Let's wait this one out, a referendum in 2011 will be just fine.....
Posted by: redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 12:25am Mon 5 May 08
with oil at 120 usd a barrel, even the labour party can see that the returns from that windfall for taxation are greater than even the monies gained in the 70's.
an accurate report on monies going to london now , a mini mccrone report, is needed, so people can **** whether the oil is worth having for the next 20 yeras as absis to improve scotland, or leave as consolidated revenue to pay for bad decision making in english banks and the london olympics.
salmond has been an oil economist; i think he knows the figures and can show his hand if and when necessary.
if people will be better off in an independent scotland, they need to have facts and figures, not merely propaganda from both sides. although the median line in the water does seem to be drawn since 1998 in a way to favour england, following an english mp majority in westminster who voted for it, which we can assume is no accident.
with oil at 120 usd a barrel, even the labour party can see that the returns from that windfall for taxation are greater than even the monies gained in the 70's.
an accurate report on monies going to london now , a mini mccrone report, is needed, so people can **** whether the oil is worth having for the next 20 yeras as absis to improve scotland, or leave as consolidated revenue to pay for bad decision making in english banks and the london olympics.
salmond has been an oil economist; i think he knows the figures and can show his hand if and when necessary.
if people will be better off in an independent scotland, they need to have facts and figures, not merely propaganda from both sides. although the median line in the water does seem to be drawn since 1998 in a way to favour england, following an english mp majority in westminster who voted for it, which we can assume is no accident.
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 12:26am Mon 5 May 08
[quote]Proud to be Scottish, Glasgow on 12:12am
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse.[/quote] Ha Ha Ha, that has got to be the funniest thing I've read in weeks.
No you won't get an immediate referendum. Before May 2007, the SNP said they would hold the referendum in 2010. Don't like it? Tough!! It's not Wendy's or HP Sauces call.
Tell you what! Lets hold a referendum on Europe first since your so keen on them.
Proud to be Scottish, Glasgow on 12:12am
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse.
Ha Ha Ha, that has got to be the funniest thing I've read in weeks.
No you won't get an immediate referendum. Before May 2007, the SNP said they would hold the referendum in 2010. Don't like it? Tough!! It's not Wendy's or HP Sauces call.
Tell you what! Lets hold a referendum on Europe first since your so keen on them.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:27am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Awaab Raja[/bold] wrote:
We do not have to wait until 2010 to have a referendum as envisaged by the SNP. We can have a referendum within a few months.
Wendy Alexander and the Labour Party should propose an immediate referendum and challenge the SNP MSPs to support such a move.
Just watch the SNP refuse to give the Scots a referendum thereby denying Scots a say on their constitutional future.
Scots demand an immediate referendum. [italic]italic[/italic] [/quote]
How can she do that after commissioning a constitutional commission ya diddy, boxed in once again by the SNP.....
Your unionist kabal could easily vote through a referendum, unfortunately to date they have been staunchly opposed to it, now let's see, what has changed?
Could it be that Wendy puts Labour Party tactics before the people of Scotland? - shurly not.... oor wendy.... you betcha!
Awaab Raja wrote:
We do not have to wait until 2010 to have a referendum as envisaged by the SNP. We can have a referendum within a few months.
Wendy Alexander and the Labour Party should propose an immediate referendum and challenge the SNP MSPs to support such a move.
Just watch the SNP refuse to give the Scots a referendum thereby denying Scots a say on their constitutional future.
Scots demand an immediate referendum.
How can she do that after commissioning a constitutional commission ya diddy, boxed in once again by the SNP.....
Your unionist kabal could easily vote through a referendum, unfortunately to date they have been staunchly opposed to it, now let's see, what has changed?
Could it be that Wendy puts Labour Party tactics before the people of Scotland? - shurly not.... oor wendy.... you betcha!
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 12:30am Mon 5 May 08
Starting to dance to the tune of the highland fling!
Starting to dance to the tune of the highland fling!
Posted by: Davy, Erskine on 12:32am Mon 5 May 08
Keep taking the pills Wendy.
Keep taking the pills Wendy.
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 12:32am Mon 5 May 08
Go on one more Paddy Ba.
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 12:33am Mon 5 May 08
Well said Doonhammer. Does this u-turn constitute another broken promise by Wendy that she has failed to keep.
Also good point. With this call by Wendy, the stakes have been raised. The Status Quo is no longer an option. Only options are max dev with a Federal UK, or total Independance.
Well said Doonhammer. Does this u-turn constitute another broken promise by Wendy that she has failed to keep.
Also good point. With this call by Wendy, the stakes have been raised. The Status Quo is no longer an option. Only options are max dev with a Federal UK, or total Independance.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:37am Mon 5 May 08
What does Wendy propose in her referendum, the status quo has consistently polled lower than any other option.
Is she now ready to define what 'greater powers' mean?
We're all ears
What does Wendy propose in her referendum, the status quo has consistently polled lower than any other option.
Is she now ready to define what 'greater powers' mean?
We're all ears
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:37am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]soloman[/bold] wrote:
Starting to dance to the tune of the highland fling![/quote] ha ha ha ha ha - yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaccccc
ch!
soloman wrote:
Starting to dance to the tune of the highland fling!
ha ha ha ha ha - yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaccccc
ch!
Posted by: doonhamer on 12:38am Mon 5 May 08
[[quote]bold]Proud to be Scottish wrote:[/bold]
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse[/quote]
I can just hear her counting now.
1,,,,,,2,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,3,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
4,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,5,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,
CODE BLUE
CODE BLUE
CODE BLUE
Proud to be Scottish wrote:
Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse
I can just hear her counting now.
1,,,,,,2,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,3,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
4,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,5,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,
CODE BLUE
CODE BLUE
CODE BLUE
Posted by: Awaab Raja, EDINBURGH on 12:39am Mon 5 May 08
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010?[italic]italic[/italic]
Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW.
What is Alex Salmond frightened of?
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010?
Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW.
What is Alex Salmond frightened of?
Posted by: Vespa, Clacks on 12:41am Mon 5 May 08
Lets have a referendum now, rather than having 2 more years of phoney war.
Lets have a referendum now, rather than having 2 more years of phoney war.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 12:42am Mon 5 May 08
Interestingly the Sunday Mail scooped this story yesterday - they
must have some interesting inside sources.
"Brown To Call SNP Bluff Over Independence Vote
see - tinyurl.com/3w7uw8
Also interesting to see they say "Brown To Call" where as
this article emphasizes " discussed with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, though not agreed with him."
Aye sure - they must think we are all eejits.
Don't they even realize that everybody can see the
strings of puppet master Brown to marionette Wendy ?
The ventriloquist act is not any better - time for
Scots to get their money back this act has had it :)
Interestingly the Sunday Mail scooped this story yesterday - they
must have some interesting inside sources.
"Brown To Call SNP Bluff Over Independence Vote
see - tinyurl.com/3w7uw8
Also interesting to see they say "Brown To Call" where as
this article emphasizes " discussed with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, though not agreed with him."
Aye sure - they must think we are all eejits.
Don't they even realize that everybody can see the
strings of puppet master Brown to marionette Wendy ?
The ventriloquist act is not any better - time for
Scots to get their money back this act has had it :)
Posted by: Kadok, West End on 12:43am Mon 5 May 08
Yes Awaab, NOW! Right now! Gloic.
Yes Awaab, NOW! Right now! Gloic.
Posted by: doonhamer on 12:43am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Awaab Raja[/bold] wrote:
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010?[italic]italic[/italic] Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW. What is Alex Salmond frightened of?[/quote] You Labour numpties just don't it. You no longer set the agenda for Scotland. Your opinion is no longer the be all and end all of Scottish politics.
The government will propose the legislation on its own timetable and at the time of ITS choosing.
You can either accept that or not.
Either way, you are no longer in charge.
Awaab Raja wrote:
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010? Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW. What is Alex Salmond frightened of?
You Labour numpties just don't it. You no longer set the agenda for Scotland. Your opinion is no longer the be all and end all of Scottish politics.
The government will propose the legislation on its own timetable and at the time of ITS choosing.
You can either accept that or not.
Either way, you are no longer in charge.
Posted by: DougtheDug on 12:48am Mon 5 May 08
Traquir, Alba on 12:42am today
No that's only the headline. The article says:
[quote]Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander are both [bold]considering[/bold] giving Labour's support to a referendum on Scotland's future in the Union.[/quote]
It doesn't say that Brown has given it the green light.
However if Wendy's acting independently (pun intended) then Brown's authority in the Labour Party is finished.
Traquir, Alba on 12:42am today
No that's only the headline. The article says:
Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander are both considering giving Labour's support to a referendum on Scotland's future in the Union.
It doesn't say that Brown has given it the green light.
However if Wendy's acting independently (pun intended) then Brown's authority in the Labour Party is finished.
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 12:50am Mon 5 May 08
Hmmmm. Can Wendy call a referendum? No, she can't. She'd never get Tory or even Lib Dem support. She might try introducing a bill and daring the SNP to vote it down, but I can't see why Alex Salmond would have any problem making sure that at the very least the SNP's original timetable, so often laid out, was adhered to.
What sort of a bill would she introduce? She can hardly put "more powers for a devolved Holyrood" on the ballot paper without defining them. So she can hardly jump in there without a lot of discussion as to what these powers should be. What an ill-thought-out move! Or is she just wanting a two-way referendum on the status quo or independence? I would hardly have thought so, and if she tried that it would be so blatantly manipulative that even the Labour press would have her for breakfast.
This is just nuts.
Now there is the possibility of Labour at Westminster introducing a bill there, and running the referendum themselves, with a loaded question I imagine. But Wendy isn't even an MP so she can't introduce any such thing, and I really don't see the English Labour MPs going for it no matter what sort of a panic they're in.
The more I try to make tactical sense of this, the less sense it makes. Does Wendy- brain- the-size-of- a-planet actually have any competent tactical advisors?
Hmmmm. Can Wendy call a referendum? No, she can't. She'd never get Tory or even Lib Dem support. She might try introducing a bill and daring the SNP to vote it down, but I can't see why Alex Salmond would have any problem making sure that at the very least the SNP's original timetable, so often laid out, was adhered to.
What sort of a bill would she introduce? She can hardly put "more powers for a devolved Holyrood" on the ballot paper without defining them. So she can hardly jump in there without a lot of discussion as to what these powers should be. What an ill-thought-out move! Or is she just wanting a two-way referendum on the status quo or independence? I would hardly have thought so, and if she tried that it would be so blatantly manipulative that even the Labour press would have her for breakfast.
This is just nuts.
Now there is the possibility of Labour at Westminster introducing a bill there, and running the referendum themselves, with a loaded question I imagine. But Wendy isn't even an MP so she can't introduce any such thing, and I really don't see the English Labour MPs going for it no matter what sort of a panic they're in.
The more I try to make tactical sense of this, the less sense it makes. Does Wendy- brain- the-size-of- a-planet actually have any competent tactical advisors?
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 12:54am Mon 5 May 08
I think its time ! Time, not just to hug a "hoody", but NEW -LABOUR
and their last remaining funky's and sycophants ( like proud to be a
north-englander! ). Because lets face it, without their mindblowing
inepitude, sleaze, and ilegal, amoral behaviour the cause of
Independence would not be in quite the Turbo - Charged
mode that it is at present. Really, gifted accademics should be
dispatched to undertake studies of just how a Party of "All The
Talents" ( Tongue Firmly In Cheek ! ) can manage the not
inconsiderable feat of p*ssing off an entire Nation in such a short
space of time. Gordon, Wendy, Baron Foulkes, Friar Cairns, etc etc
I salute you all. !!!
I think its time ! Time, not just to hug a "hoody", but NEW -LABOUR
and their last remaining funky's and sycophants ( like proud to be a
north-englander! ). Because lets face it, without their mindblowing
inepitude, sleaze, and ilegal, amoral behaviour the cause of
Independence would not be in quite the Turbo - Charged
mode that it is at present. Really, gifted accademics should be
dispatched to undertake studies of just how a Party of "All The
Talents" ( Tongue Firmly In Cheek ! ) can manage the not
inconsiderable feat of p*ssing off an entire Nation in such a short
space of time. Gordon, Wendy, Baron Foulkes, Friar Cairns, etc etc
I salute you all. !!!
Posted by: Big Boy Did It, And Ran Away on 12:56am Mon 5 May 08
Getting a lot of practice at U-ies the Labour party aren't they.
Showing oodles of integrity there Wendy, you just keep showing it don't you...
Getting a lot of practice at U-ies the Labour party aren't they.
Showing oodles of integrity there Wendy, you just keep showing it don't you...
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 12:56am Mon 5 May 08
In fact, the one thing I can see coming out of this is that here is one more piece of SNP legislation that the party would "never manage to get through", which is looking even more likely now.
If Wendy and Toom Tabard (I like it!) come out in favour of a referendum, then how are they going to stop the SNP when the bill is introduced in 2010? How are they going to prevent any attempt they might make at railroading an earier vote simply adding weight to the SNP's original proposal? They can hardly move on a much faster timetable, not from a back-foot position following a blatant U-turn.
The woman has all the common sense (and good looks) of a goldfish.
In fact, the one thing I can see coming out of this is that here is one more piece of SNP legislation that the party would "never manage to get through", which is looking even more likely now.
If Wendy and Toom Tabard (I like it!) come out in favour of a referendum, then how are they going to stop the SNP when the bill is introduced in 2010? How are they going to prevent any attempt they might make at railroading an earier vote simply adding weight to the SNP's original proposal? They can hardly move on a much faster timetable, not from a back-foot position following a blatant U-turn.
The woman has all the common sense (and good looks) of a goldfish.
Posted by: Vivas, Embra on 12:56am Mon 5 May 08
Broon - via the Wendy glove-puppet - is going for the scorched earth policy.
As a believer in independence mysel, I would never take the outcome of such a referndum for granted. Where it's 2009, 2010 , 20whenever.
But at least the purpose of such a referendum was purely to determine whether Scots wish to be independent or not.
However very suddenly, very expediently, SLAB/UK Labour seeks to use it as a way to "slay the SNP dragon", get a bounce at the polls and save 10, 20 or however many vital Labour seats it can at the next UK election. THAT is their only motivation for coming round to the referendum.
Toom tabard and Wendy are lower than a snakes belly. They'll happily play the referendum PURELY for UK party advantage. They'd rather crash and burn Scottish politics to save a few erse-wipe Labour numpts in the central-belt, all this to[italic] just maybe[/italic] squeak a result in the UK election in 2 years.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are dealing here with the political scum class to end all political scum classes. And should they achieve their aim here, and the Tories take power regardless, this country of ours will become a very very bitter place, all as a result of SLABS moral and political bankruptcy.
Broon - via the Wendy glove-puppet - is going for the scorched earth policy.
As a believer in independence mysel, I would never take the outcome of such a referndum for granted. Where it's 2009, 2010 , 20whenever.
But at least the purpose of such a referendum was purely to determine whether Scots wish to be independent or not.
However very suddenly, very expediently, SLAB/UK Labour seeks to use it as a way to "slay the SNP dragon", get a bounce at the polls and save 10, 20 or however many vital Labour seats it can at the next UK election. THAT is their only motivation for coming round to the referendum.
Toom tabard and Wendy are lower than a snakes belly. They'll happily play the referendum PURELY for UK party advantage. They'd rather crash and burn Scottish politics to save a few erse-wipe Labour numpts in the central-belt, all this to
just maybe squeak a result in the UK election in 2 years.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are dealing here with the political scum class to end all political scum classes. And should they achieve their aim here, and the Tories take power regardless, this country of ours will become a very very bitter place, all as a result of SLABS moral and political bankruptcy.
Posted by: Big Boy Did It, And Ran Away on 12:58am Mon 5 May 08
10 out of 10, bring it on, goddamit.
10 out of 10, bring it on, goddamit.
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 1:00am Mon 5 May 08
Vivas, you have nailed it in one.
Vivas, you have nailed it in one.
Posted by: DougtheDug on 1:01am Mon 5 May 08
Morag, Peeblesshire on 12:50am today
[quote]Does Wendy- brain- the-size-of- a-planet actually have any competent tactical advisors?[/quote]
We'll just have to see what comes out in the wash.
Has she got Brown's backing for this move and more importantly has she got the backing of the Labour MSP's [bold]and[/bold] the rest of the Labour party in Scotland?
How's this going to play with the other dependence parties? I bet Goldie and Stephen are not happy bunnies just now. They've just got their unionist commission set up and running and Wendy's just pulled the rug out from under it.
And going back to the tactics, what's it all about? Why the sudden change now? The rise of the SNP and the catastrophe of the English local elections must have pushed the Labour party, or more specifically Brown, over some tipping point and it may not be rational decisions that we're seeing from the party anymore.
It's going to be interesting to see what Wendy's game plan is, if she has one that is.
Morag, Peeblesshire on 12:50am today
Does Wendy- brain- the-size-of- a-planet actually have any competent tactical advisors?
We'll just have to see what comes out in the wash.
Has she got Brown's backing for this move and more importantly has she got the backing of the Labour MSP's
and the rest of the Labour party in Scotland?
How's this going to play with the other dependence parties? I bet Goldie and Stephen are not happy bunnies just now. They've just got their unionist commission set up and running and Wendy's just pulled the rug out from under it.
And going back to the tactics, what's it all about? Why the sudden change now? The rise of the SNP and the catastrophe of the English local elections must have pushed the Labour party, or more specifically Brown, over some tipping point and it may not be rational decisions that we're seeing from the party anymore.
It's going to be interesting to see what Wendy's game plan is, if she has one that is.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 1:05am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Awaab Raja[/bold] wrote:
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010?[italic]italic[/italic] Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW. What is Alex Salmond frightened of?[/quote] Awaab, the SNP didn't promise an immediate referendum. Alex Salmond made that clear again in his interview today. He gave a very good reason for doing so: he said people were entitled to judge the SNP on their performance in government first. I think that makes perfect sense.
Salmond's performance today was relaxed and he was clearly very comfortable throughout the interview, unlike Alexander, who is the one obviously experiencing great fear right now. She dodged questions, was generally obnoxious and even more arrogant than usual. Her rage, her contempt for Salmond was quite entertaining. It proves how inadequate he makes her feel. Even Campbell seemed exasperated by her whole approach. Wendy doesn't want a referendum now! No one in Labour does. Its just another tactic in an attempt to wrong-foot the SNP. As always it backfired. I hear some in Labour are anything but pleased she made this announcement as none of them knew much about it. Guess why? Because it wasn't serious.
Awaab Raja wrote:
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010? Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW. What is Alex Salmond frightened of?
Awaab, the SNP didn't promise an immediate referendum. Alex Salmond made that clear again in his interview today. He gave a very good reason for doing so: he said people were entitled to judge the SNP on their performance in government first. I think that makes perfect sense.
Salmond's performance today was relaxed and he was clearly very comfortable throughout the interview, unlike Alexander, who is the one obviously experiencing great fear right now. She dodged questions, was generally obnoxious and even more arrogant than usual. Her rage, her contempt for Salmond was quite entertaining. It proves how inadequate he makes her feel. Even Campbell seemed exasperated by her whole approach. Wendy doesn't want a referendum now! No one in Labour does. Its just another tactic in an attempt to wrong-foot the SNP. As always it backfired. I hear some in Labour are anything but pleased she made this announcement as none of them knew much about it. Guess why? Because it wasn't serious.
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 1:11am Mon 5 May 08
Aye, I can just see Wendy, the brain that it is the size of planet with the intellect of the moon, standing up at FMQ’s with her hand on her hip and nodding like a demented dug asking ‘who’s Scotland going to support, me and my trough feeding comrades or a free and prosperous Scotland.
An intellect indeed.
Aye, I can just see Wendy, the brain that it is the size of planet with the intellect of the moon, standing up at FMQ’s with her hand on her hip and nodding like a demented dug asking ‘who’s Scotland going to support, me and my trough feeding comrades or a free and prosperous Scotland.
An intellect indeed.
Posted by: Kadok, West End on 1:11am Mon 5 May 08
Brown did say on the AM Show that he is making an announcement on the consitution next week - one of the 'flurry' of initiatives in his fightback. Maybe this is Wendy flying a kite but has forgotten to hold on to the string.
Brown did say on the AM Show that he is making an announcement on the consitution next week - one of the 'flurry' of initiatives in his fightback. Maybe this is Wendy flying a kite but has forgotten to hold on to the string.
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 1:14am Mon 5 May 08
Can Brown even make a decision? Push-me pull-me. Ditherer.
Can Brown even make a decision? Push-me pull-me. Ditherer.
Posted by: gavin48, Glasgow on 1:17am Mon 5 May 08
Wow what turn around from Labour in Scotland.
As usual the devil will be in the detail. Is she proposing a single issue referendum? with the only option Independence or not? In which case the wording will be very interesting.
Is she proposing a multi choice referendum? In which case what will be the options, will it be a simple 1,2 3 option, will it be preferential. Once again the wording will be all important. But can we have this multi option referendum until her review has reported, otherwise what will be the basis for the options.
What will be the effect of this referendum on the options being considered for enhancing Holyrood powers, if a single issue referendum on independence, and the option of Independence is rejected does this become something that diminishes the increasing of Holyrood powers.
Does seem to smack of panic, and perhaps not very well thought out by her or her advisers.
I await details of her proposal, before judging if this is a smart move or not.
Wow what turn around from Labour in Scotland.
As usual the devil will be in the detail. Is she proposing a single issue referendum? with the only option Independence or not? In which case the wording will be very interesting.
Is she proposing a multi choice referendum? In which case what will be the options, will it be a simple 1,2 3 option, will it be preferential. Once again the wording will be all important. But can we have this multi option referendum until her review has reported, otherwise what will be the basis for the options.
What will be the effect of this referendum on the options being considered for enhancing Holyrood powers, if a single issue referendum on independence, and the option of Independence is rejected does this become something that diminishes the increasing of Holyrood powers.
Does seem to smack of panic, and perhaps not very well thought out by her or her advisers.
I await details of her proposal, before judging if this is a smart move or not.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 1:17am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Awaab Raja[/bold] wrote:
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010?[italic]italic[/italic]
Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW.
What is Alex Salmond frightened of?[/quote] Alex will call the election in his own good time. Unlike Wendy
he is not a puppet that will just jump on command.
I guess it will take some people time to get
used to Scotland taking decisions for herself, but
it is actually a really good thing don't be scared of
the responsibility we can do it :)
Awaab Raja wrote:
The SNP do not believe they would win a referendum. Otherwise why wait until 2010?
Wendy Alexander is supporting a referendum so let us have it NOW.
What is Alex Salmond frightened of?
Alex will call the election in his own good time. Unlike Wendy
he is not a puppet that will just jump on command.
I guess it will take some people time to get
used to Scotland taking decisions for herself, but
it is actually a really good thing don't be scared of
the responsibility we can do it :)
Posted by: Alex on 1:17am Mon 5 May 08
This is really the nuclear option for Scottish Labour: “If we’re going to go down we will go down in a blaze of glory”.
If as planned by Salmond, the referendum issue is put before the parliament at the end of a (hopefully) successful SNP period of government; if agreed, then there is a high probability of success on to two option referendum. If refused, then Salmond can go to the country with the cry that the ‘other party’s’ are denying Scotland a democratic choice. It’s a win-win situation for the SNP.
By calling for an early referendum Wendy hopes to catch the Scottish electorate in an indecisive phase and to muddy the waters further by introducing a multiple choice question; in the hope that the electorate will go for the middle and less extreme option of undefined greater powers.
This is really a last ditch defence by a discredited party – all three – Labour LibDum and Tory – to deny the Scottish Nation their birthright. We will not let it happen!!
It is disgraceful that the once proud Socialist movement that started in Scotland will be led into oblivion by this harridan who is not fit to claim the mantle of men such as Hardie, Maxton or Shinwell.
This is really the nuclear option for Scottish Labour: “If we’re going to go down we will go down in a blaze of glory”.
If as planned by Salmond, the referendum issue is put before the parliament at the end of a (hopefully) successful SNP period of government; if agreed, then there is a high probability of success on to two option referendum. If refused, then Salmond can go to the country with the cry that the ‘other party’s’ are denying Scotland a democratic choice. It’s a win-win situation for the SNP.
By calling for an early referendum Wendy hopes to catch the Scottish electorate in an indecisive phase and to muddy the waters further by introducing a multiple choice question; in the hope that the electorate will go for the middle and less extreme option of undefined greater powers.
This is really a last ditch defence by a discredited party – all three – Labour LibDum and Tory – to deny the Scottish Nation their birthright. We will not let it happen!!
It is disgraceful that the once proud Socialist movement that started in Scotland will be led into oblivion by this harridan who is not fit to claim the mantle of men such as Hardie, Maxton or Shinwell.
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 1:17am Mon 5 May 08
Well, let's see.
2009, European elections. Another chance to kick Labour, do we really think the English electorate will pass up on that? And, hopefully, a good showing for the SNP in Scotland, the party has always tended to do well in European elections.
2010, Westminster general election. Do we really think this is going to be anything but 1997 in reverse? Maybe the SNP will get its 20 seats and maybe it won't, but what's for sure, Scotland is going to get the Tories whether it likes them or not. Even if every single adult on the electoral register in Scotland voted Labour, the Tories are still going to get in.
2011, Holyrood general election.
So where, in this scenario, would an independence referendum fit? If Alex Salmond has any sense (and he seems to have plenty), fairly soon after the Westminster election, when the full horror is sinking in. Looks as if that's probably more or less what he has pencilled in. Labour was going to block this, and could probably have counted on Tory and Lib Dem support, which would have necessitated Salmond going to the country in 2011 to get a bigger mandate to reintroduce the bill.
If you go on this long, it's possible the wheels might come off the SNP bandwagon. Events get less predictable the further ahead you look. (I still have a tape of a [italic]Money Programme[/italic] edition on Scottish independence from 1992, which predicted Portillo as PM in 1997 or 2001, following a one-term Labour administration!) But it's clear that the current Labour party now realises that support for independence is much more likely to increase than to fade. So rather than go for the delay and hope for salvation in the form of "events", they'd like to wrong-foot the SNP and the electorate by stampeding an early poll.
Quite apart from the sheer blatant dishonesty of it all, as eloquently pointed out by Vivas, and the very real difficulty of actually getting a referendum underway in a short time-scale, where exactly would they like to put it in that timetable?
And don't say "next week", please try to be realistic.
{Shakes head and wonders again whether Wendy has even a single person with a single functioning neurone advising her....}
Well, let's see.
2009, European elections. Another chance to kick Labour, do we really think the English electorate will pass up on that? And, hopefully, a good showing for the SNP in Scotland, the party has always tended to do well in European elections.
2010, Westminster general election. Do we really think this is going to be anything but 1997 in reverse? Maybe the SNP will get its 20 seats and maybe it won't, but what's for sure, Scotland is going to get the Tories whether it likes them or not. Even if every single adult on the electoral register in Scotland voted Labour, the Tories are still going to get in.
2011, Holyrood general election.
So where, in this scenario, would an independence referendum fit? If Alex Salmond has any sense (and he seems to have plenty), fairly soon after the Westminster election, when the full horror is sinking in. Looks as if that's probably more or less what he has pencilled in. Labour was going to block this, and could probably have counted on Tory and Lib Dem support, which would have necessitated Salmond going to the country in 2011 to get a bigger mandate to reintroduce the bill.
If you go on this long, it's possible the wheels might come off the SNP bandwagon. Events get less predictable the further ahead you look. (I still have a tape of a
Money Programme edition on Scottish independence from 1992, which predicted Portillo as PM in 1997 or 2001, following a one-term Labour administration!) But it's clear that the current Labour party now realises that support for independence is much more likely to increase than to fade. So rather than go for the delay and hope for salvation in the form of "events", they'd like to wrong-foot the SNP and the electorate by stampeding an early poll.
Quite apart from the sheer blatant dishonesty of it all, as eloquently pointed out by Vivas, and the very real difficulty of actually getting a referendum underway in a short time-scale, where exactly would they like to put it in that timetable?
And don't say "next week", please try to be realistic.
{Shakes head and wonders again whether Wendy has even a single person with a single functioning neurone advising her....}
Posted by: Vivas, Embra on 1:20am Mon 5 May 08
Toom tabard is fecked.
UK labour is fecked.
Wendy is fecked.
SLAB is fecked.
I estimate that however they think they can "strategise" to outflank the SNP and to play the referendum for purely UK election advantage, theres about a 70% chance that they'll feck it up at every step along the way.
They couldn't run the proverbial whelk-stall at this point, let alone have the ingenuity to conduct a killer move on the SNP !!!
[italic]PS apologies for the fecking language ![/italic]
Toom tabard is fecked.
UK labour is fecked.
Wendy is fecked.
SLAB is fecked.
I estimate that however they think they can "strategise" to outflank the SNP and to play the referendum for purely UK election advantage, theres about a 70% chance that they'll feck it up at every step along the way.
They couldn't run the proverbial whelk-stall at this point, let alone have the ingenuity to conduct a killer move on the SNP !!!
PS apologies for the fecking language ! Posted by: Dave, Away on 1:21am Mon 5 May 08
As a definite Wendy-lover, I would like to see one thing on this referendum:
Only 2 questions.
Independence Yay/Nay.
I'm concerned that there seems to be too much talk of multiple choice and that's just not a good idea.
Let it be clear, so that the issue will be settled one way or tother (at least for the this generation).....
I just really don't want to see the political tactic of vote splitting to have any effect on the referendum whether it's this year or in 9 (using Alex's 2017).
Or to phrase it another way,
Alex Salmond for President or
[bold][italic]WENDY FOR QUEEN!![/italic] [/bold]
As a definite Wendy-lover, I would like to see one thing on this referendum:
Only 2 questions.
Independence Yay/Nay.
I'm concerned that there seems to be too much talk of multiple choice and that's just not a good idea.
Let it be clear, so that the issue will be settled one way or tother (at least for the this generation).....
I just really don't want to see the political tactic of vote splitting to have any effect on the referendum whether it's this year or in 9 (using Alex's 2017).
Or to phrase it another way,
Alex Salmond for President or
WENDY FOR QUEEN!!
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 1:21am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Morag[/bold] wrote:
Well, let's see.
2009, European elections. Another chance to kick Labour, do we really think the English electorate will pass up on that? And, hopefully, a good showing for the SNP in Scotland, the party has always tended to do well in European elections.
2010, Westminster general election. Do we really think this is going to be anything but 1997 in reverse? Maybe the SNP will get its 20 seats and maybe it won't, but what's for sure, Scotland is going to get the Tories whether it likes them or not. Even if every single adult on the electoral register in Scotland voted Labour, the Tories are still going to get in.
2011, Holyrood general election.
So where, in this scenario, would an independence referendum fit? If Alex Salmond has any sense (and he seems to have plenty), fairly soon after the Westminster election, when the full horror is sinking in. Looks as if that's probably more or less what he has pencilled in. Labour was going to block this, and could probably have counted on Tory and Lib Dem support, which would have necessitated Salmond going to the country in 2011 to get a bigger mandate to reintroduce the bill.
If you go on this long, it's possible the wheels might come off the SNP bandwagon. Events get less predictable the further ahead you look. (I still have a tape of a [italic]Money Programme[/italic] edition on Scottish independence from 1992, which predicted Portillo as PM in 1997 or 2001, following a one-term Labour administration!) But it's clear that the current Labour party now realises that support for independence is much more likely to increase than to fade. So rather than go for the delay and hope for salvation in the form of "events", they'd like to wrong-foot the SNP and the electorate by stampeding an early poll.
Quite apart from the sheer blatant dishonesty of it all, as eloquently pointed out by Vivas, and the very real difficulty of actually getting a referendum underway in a short time-scale, where exactly would they like to put it in that timetable?
And don't say "next week", please try to be realistic.
{Shakes head and wonders again whether Wendy has even a single person with a single functioning neurone advising her....}
[/quote] Excellent post - sums up the situation perfectly.
Morag wrote:
Well, let's see.
2009, European elections. Another chance to kick Labour, do we really think the English electorate will pass up on that? And, hopefully, a good showing for the SNP in Scotland, the party has always tended to do well in European elections.
2010, Westminster general election. Do we really think this is going to be anything but 1997 in reverse? Maybe the SNP will get its 20 seats and maybe it won't, but what's for sure, Scotland is going to get the Tories whether it likes them or not. Even if every single adult on the electoral register in Scotland voted Labour, the Tories are still going to get in.
2011, Holyrood general election.
So where, in this scenario, would an independence referendum fit? If Alex Salmond has any sense (and he seems to have plenty), fairly soon after the Westminster election, when the full horror is sinking in. Looks as if that's probably more or less what he has pencilled in. Labour was going to block this, and could probably have counted on Tory and Lib Dem support, which would have necessitated Salmond going to the country in 2011 to get a bigger mandate to reintroduce the bill.
If you go on this long, it's possible the wheels might come off the SNP bandwagon. Events get less predictable the further ahead you look. (I still have a tape of a Money Programme edition on Scottish independence from 1992, which predicted Portillo as PM in 1997 or 2001, following a one-term Labour administration!) But it's clear that the current Labour party now realises that support for independence is much more likely to increase than to fade. So rather than go for the delay and hope for salvation in the form of "events", they'd like to wrong-foot the SNP and the electorate by stampeding an early poll.
Quite apart from the sheer blatant dishonesty of it all, as eloquently pointed out by Vivas, and the very real difficulty of actually getting a referendum underway in a short time-scale, where exactly would they like to put it in that timetable?
And don't say "next week", please try to be realistic.
{Shakes head and wonders again whether Wendy has even a single person with a single functioning neurone advising her....}
Excellent post - sums up the situation perfectly.
Posted by: Seargent Fury, south of the river, down Tradeston way on 1:31am Mon 5 May 08
urr ye quite sure about that, scooter-boy fae Clacks? Werr is Clacks byrawey? Sumhin tells me you urnae a native...
And what would ones proposed wording on this referendum, you suddenly think is such a spiffing idea that its got to happen right now?
Gies peace, colonist
urr ye quite sure about that, scooter-boy fae Clacks? Werr is Clacks byrawey? Sumhin tells me you urnae a native...
And what would ones proposed wording on this referendum, you suddenly think is such a spiffing idea that its got to happen right now?
Gies peace, colonist
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 1:38am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Mrs I P Knightly[/bold] wrote:
There won't be a referendum soon as they would have to concede a referendum on Europe and that is not what Brown wants to do before the next UK election. It would cause more problems for Labour. [/quote] Actually, that's quite a telling point.
Mrs I P Knightly wrote:
There won't be a referendum soon as they would have to concede a referendum on Europe and that is not what Brown wants to do before the next UK election. It would cause more problems for Labour.
Actually, that's quite a telling point.
Posted by: Jimbo on 1:40am Mon 5 May 08
No need to rush into a referendum right now. There's still plenty of Labour sleaze to be trickled out bit by bit to the press to take us up to 2010.
Holding a referendum right now would mean having to release it all at once and the deluge could confuse the voters as to who did what and when.
It would also have the effect of too quickly becoming last weeks news as per wee Dougie's vote rigging or Wendy's donor scandal. Just exactly what Labour would want before they start they're scare-mongering in the lead up to a general Election.
No need to rush into a referendum right now. There's still plenty of Labour sleaze to be trickled out bit by bit to the press to take us up to 2010.
Holding a referendum right now would mean having to release it all at once and the deluge could confuse the voters as to who did what and when.
It would also have the effect of too quickly becoming last weeks news as per wee Dougie's vote rigging or Wendy's donor scandal. Just exactly what Labour would want before they start they're scare-mongering in the lead up to a general Election.
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 1:41am Mon 5 May 08
[quote]salmond should say now that their brief is the same they are welcom eon the overall conversation, assuming they willa ccept some snp people so it can have a truly national approach. how can they refuse based on this u-turn? they either wish to look at independence as an option or they do not. this is from a labour perspective only of course.[/quote] And there's another one.
salmond should say now that their brief is the same they are welcom eon the overall conversation, assuming they willa ccept some snp people so it can have a truly national approach. how can they refuse based on this u-turn? they either wish to look at independence as an option or they do not. this is from a labour perspective only of course.
And there's another one.
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 1:48am Mon 5 May 08
[quote]However very suddenly, very expediently, SLAB/UK Labour seeks to use it as a way to "slay the SNP dragon", get a bounce at the polls and save 10, 20 or however many vital Labour seats it can at the next UK election. THAT is their only motivation for coming round to the referendum.
Toom tabard and Wendy are lower than a snakes belly. They'll happily play the referendum PURELY for UK party advantage.[/quote]This thread is simply [italic]stuffed[/italic] with killer positions for Alex to take when discussing this issue. I hope (actually I know) he has people reading it for him....
However very suddenly, very expediently, SLAB/UK Labour seeks to use it as a way to "slay the SNP dragon", get a bounce at the polls and save 10, 20 or however many vital Labour seats it can at the next UK election. THAT is their only motivation for coming round to the referendum.
Toom tabard and Wendy are lower than a snakes belly. They'll happily play the referendum PURELY for UK party advantage.
This thread is simply
stuffed with killer positions for Alex to take when discussing this issue. I hope (actually I know) he has people reading it for him....
Posted by: gavin48, Glasgow on 2:07am Mon 5 May 08
Have just watched the Politics show on the BBC iPlayer, Wendy Alexander was on and directly asked about the Sunday MAil exclusive on calling SNPs bluff by having a referendum on independence. Her answer was very revealing as she did not say yes rather it was answered by saying that if the SNP were serious they should bring forward the bill to the Scottish parliament for the referendum. She repeated this point several times.
So is she really for a referendum or is this another bit of gesture politics or is she trailing an announcement she will make in the parliament this week?
Have just watched the Politics show on the BBC iPlayer, Wendy Alexander was on and directly asked about the Sunday MAil exclusive on calling SNPs bluff by having a referendum on independence. Her answer was very revealing as she did not say yes rather it was answered by saying that if the SNP were serious they should bring forward the bill to the Scottish parliament for the referendum. She repeated this point several times.
So is she really for a referendum or is this another bit of gesture politics or is she trailing an announcement she will make in the parliament this week?
Posted by: bluenose, Glasgow on 2:19am Mon 5 May 08
Let us be realistic here , this sudden U Turn of giagnturian proportions is not been done to agree to the democratic rights of the Scottish nation .
Nor is it been done to merely spike the SNP guns it is being done purely and simply for Labour Party good that and that alone .
Understand this ,the referendum will be run from Westminster not Holyrood , they will set the time ,the question and the agenda .
The tactic is simple the question will be as confusing as possible.
The money thrown at the "Scotland is British" campaign will be immense.
Every dirty tactic you have ever seen double it by 10 and wait for more.
The lib and Tory Uncle Toms might wail initially but they will fall in line like all well behaved Uncle Toms do.
We will be assailed with every lie ,con ,trick mistruth you can imagine .
This will make Mugabes elections look the most impartial you have ever seen .
IT is ALL about Oil folks in Iraq send in the troops in Scotland send in the media same tactic shock and awe.
Simply put by Labour declaring a referendum they have removed the issue ,the rules and the question from the SNP giving it to the whore of parliaments in Westminster to manipulate and keep control of Scotland.
Let us be realistic here , this sudden U Turn of giagnturian proportions is not been done to agree to the democratic rights of the Scottish nation .
Nor is it been done to merely spike the SNP guns it is being done purely and simply for Labour Party good that and that alone .
Understand this ,the referendum will be run from Westminster not Holyrood , they will set the time ,the question and the agenda .
The tactic is simple the question will be as confusing as possible.
The money thrown at the "Scotland is British" campaign will be immense.
Every dirty tactic you have ever seen double it by 10 and wait for more.
The lib and Tory Uncle Toms might wail initially but they will fall in line like all well behaved Uncle Toms do.
We will be assailed with every lie ,con ,trick mistruth you can imagine .
This will make Mugabes elections look the most impartial you have ever seen .
IT is ALL about Oil folks in Iraq send in the troops in Scotland send in the media same tactic shock and awe.
Simply put by Labour declaring a referendum they have removed the issue ,the rules and the question from the SNP giving it to the whore of parliaments in Westminster to manipulate and keep control of Scotland.
Posted by: Proud to be Scottish, Glasgow on 3:47am Mon 5 May 08
[quote][bold]Wardog[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Proud to be Scottish[/bold] wrote: Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse. Now is the time to shoot the nationalist fox. It has taken longer than some of us had hoped for the leadsership to get the nats into the cross-sights. Go on Alex call a referndum now, that won't happen though will it?[/quote] ha ha ha ha ha - anymore cliches for us PtBS? Shooting Unionist Elephants? Finger on the Button? [bold]Kaboom![/bold] - Metldown process initiated ha ha ha ha ha This has to be the ultimate desperation from Wendy, nothing more to grasp at, very likely that brown won't be in power in 3-6 months time after the 10p rebels get him, the 42 days rebels get him, a by-election failure and ongoing 'communication' problems....... Let's wait this one out, a referendum in 2011 will be just fine..... [/quote] Wardog - the subtlties of the political process obviously escape you.
Wendy's timing is perfect, the pressure is on the SNP to put up or shut up. You can't bleat on about democratic will and then not ask the question of the people.
The nats have been out-foxed. You will witness the slowing down of the wind in your nat-boat's sail.
Every time you have a bleat now we can, and will, say:- 'ask the people'
GRRR, dosen't democracy stink!
LOL
LOL
LOL
Wardog wrote:
Proud to be Scottish wrote: Wendy's timing is showing that she has her finger on the pulse. Now is the time to shoot the nationalist fox. It has taken longer than some of us had hoped for the leadsership to get the nats into the cross-sights. Go on Alex call a referndum now, that won't happen though will it?
ha ha ha ha ha - anymore cliches for us PtBS? Shooting Unionist Elephants? Finger on the Button? Kaboom! - Metldown process initiated ha ha ha ha ha This has to be the ultimate desperation from Wendy, nothing more to grasp at, very likely that brown won't be in power in 3-6 months time after the 10p rebels get him, the 42 days rebels get him, a by-election failure and ongoing 'communication' problems....... Let's wait this one out, a referendum in 2011 will be just fine.....
Wardog - the subtlties of the political process obviously escape you.
Wendy's timing is perfect, the pressure is on the SNP to put up or shut up. You can't bleat on about democratic will and then not ask the question of the people.
The nats have been out-foxed. You will witness the slowing down of the wind in your nat-boat's sail.
Every time you have a bleat now we can, and will, say:- 'ask the people'
GRRR, dosen't democracy stink!
LOL
LOL
LOL
Posted by: pints, capital on 4:12am Mon 5 May 08
bluenose, Glasgow on 2:19am today
good points raised in ur post. if things get nasty who will be ready for the fight. interesting they have sent overseas the highest level of Scots troops fighting abroad since the ww 11. always wondered why the scottish regiments were filled with english officers.
bluenose, Glasgow on 2:19am today
good points raised in ur post. if things get nasty who will be ready for the fight. interesting they have sent overseas the highest level of Scots troops fighting abroad since the ww 11. always wondered why the scottish regiments were filled with english officers.
Posted by: redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 4:13am Mon 5 May 08
morag, there is method to her madness.
most labour people want additional powers, not independence. the fact that she can say she will clearly define what her powers will be in tandem with the unionist cabal is no bad thing, and should have been the position 12 months ago, prior to the election.
now that the snp arenot seen as a party of ogres, whilst hers is senn as a buch of lying scoundrels, she needs to get some of the waverers back to the giro party of old.
as i said before, there is a flatlining in the great unwashed of 26% who will never vote any other way except labour in scotland, it is the next 10 to 15 % that are the most interesting. they will go back to labour in a flash, as the record and the bbc will tell them the tales of woe, doom and gloom and the disaster that being separate would mean.
we all have brains, some however choose to use them sparingly.
if slamin' slamond can show that there is 500 billion dollars worth of oil in the sea in scottish pre 1998 or post 1998 waters, and that it should go to scotland to pay for schools and future pensions rather than olympics, english banking woes and wars we did not need to have then i think the case will be compelling, even with a negative media.
offer a free beer and fags with every vote and lanarkshire would swing back over in an instant.
do not imagine that alexander despite her ineptitude and dishonesy will give up, fear campaigns work, and almost did a year ago. had the election happened a week later then labour would have won as the fear merchants plied their trade in late april 2007.
remember blair's deceitful lies and hallucogenic comments about scotland if the snp had a say. expect more of the same, and people fall for it, particularly the unwashed and
Search This Site
INDEX
Comment | Read Comments (321)
