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Horrified parents who don't know where and what their young children are doing on Friday and Saturday nights? Irresponsible is a more suitable adjective.

When the middle class widely accepted alcohol consumption 20-30 years ago, it was down the tubes for the UK. Before, the middle class stood up for what was right and tried to make society better. Then the middle class got too comfortable, too bored, and too immoral. Drinking alcohol became acceptable and the boredom turned into debauchery and veiled alcoholism, influencing all of British society. Alcohol has ZERO positive impact for any society. The NHS is the herald on this front because the NHS is at the fore of social trends. The NHS sees how much carnage and destruction alcohol has wrecked on British culture and economy. The NHS will lead the way to a new culture: perhaps even a prohibitionist culture. The middle class created the mess, and the middle class needs to fix it. Stop drinking so much. Stop condoning it. Alcohol is ruining your individuals, families and society.

It is the parents' fault. Parents should not have to be watching their children 24 hours a day as the new age weirdo parenting gurus say. Look what has come of that: 30 and 40 year old adults who have the maturity and responsibility of 10 year olds. Children should have a lot of freedom. What they need, however, is discipline. Parents who teach their children to do what is right--to avoid alcohol and other dangerous drugs--are the best parents.

One day people will realize what I have been saying on these forums is correct. THE MIDDLE CLASS DESTROYED BRITISH CULTURE THE MOMENT THE MIDDLE CLASS ACCEPTED "SOCIAL DRINKING" AS A SOCIAL NORM. It's time for the middle class to rise up and save British civilization.

Children do what their parents do. It's child psychology. They see others do. They themselves want to mimic. How can adults themselves drink and tell their children not to drink? That is called hypocrisy. Adults need to stop drinking the drug known as alcohol. It's a far more dangerous drug than marijuana. Because it is socially acceptable now does not mean you should accept it. It's time to change what is acceptable. It's time for you to fix your society by giving up on the drug many are addicted to. Now is the time. The problem will only grow exponentially if you wait.

[quote][bold]Alkie[/bold] wrote: When the middle class widely accepted alcohol consumption 20-30 years ago, it was down the tubes for the UK. Before, the middle class stood up for what was right and tried to make society better. Then the middle class got too comfortable, too bored, and too immoral. Drinking alcohol became acceptable and the boredom turned into debauchery and veiled alcoholism, influencing all of British society. Alcohol has ZERO positive impact for any society. The NHS is the herald on this front because the NHS is at the fore of social trends. The NHS sees how much carnage and destruction alcohol has wrecked on British culture and economy. The NHS will lead the way to a new culture: perhaps even a prohibitionist culture. The middle class created the mess, and the middle class needs to fix it. Stop drinking so much. Stop condoning it. Alcohol is ruining your individuals, families and society.[/quote] Over indulgence in alcohol at any level of society is unacceptable. Lord Watson's antics at Prestonfield Hotel a couple of years ago is testament to that. I would agree that there are a lot of middle class professionals who drink too much which can cause health problems and of course cause them to act in ways they never usually would. I would stop short though of blaming them for a culture of alcohol abuse throughout Britain. I would humbly refer to myself as middle class. I stay in a private house in a small town, drive a nice car and have a well paid professional job. I like a bottle of beer as much as the next guy, but I know when to draw the line and I look after my health. I don't have kids yet, but when I do I won't drink in front of them or be drunk in front of them. What problems am I causing to society? There is a 'drinking class' emerging in Britain. This includes teenagers/young adults who drink in the street or in friends houses and become involved in disorder and violence.... students - a vast majority of students blow thousands of pounds throughout their education on the social life....... pub/nightclub 'revelers' who binge drink, and can become involved in street disorder or end up in hospital..... brain dead underclass who can't/don't/won't work and spend their free cash at their local offsales at 8:01am on a daily basis.... the list goes on of those who abuse alcohol. Those who abuse alcohol need to check themselves. The TV shows which glamourise excessive alcohol intake and portray it as a necessity in life have a lot to answer for. If publicans raised prices of alcohol, they would be able to afford to tell customers "NO MORE". That would cut down binge drinking too. If the government gave people food/clothing vouchers redeemable at supermarkets and certain other stores, instead of cash to spend on what they please, the unemployed benefit culture types would not be able to spend it on luxuries like alcohol therefore cutting out a large part of the problem. It's a sad state the country is in, but I fail to see how you can blame the middle class. Those like me who drink but do not abuse it are causing no harm to society, so I ask you this : How can my behaviour have a negative influence on society when I am promoting responsibility?

[bold]PARENTS![/bold]

Alkie My grandfather's childhood was ruined by drunk parents. He was a teetotaller, presumably as a result of this. My father, [italic]any psychoanalysts reading will not be surprised to hear this[/italic] , drank too much. My brother, [italic]guess what's coming next[/italic] , is a teetotaller. Personally, I am trying to stop this pendulum of sadly predictable over-reaction from swinging through any more generations. If middle class adults drinking alcohol resulted in the end of civilisation, then France would be a huge forest. inhabited by a few cave dwellers. As for drunk kids running amok out of their parents' sight, my observation is that it is quite prevalent in two job, two car, newish house commuter districts (eg East Kilbride, Livingston, Portlethen). It is not just in Possil and its ilk that this is going on. I can give you a provisional theory on this - there's enough money in the house that getting hold of some drink is not an issue; the kids are used to coming home themselves, feeding themselves and generally live 'semi-detached' from their parents at an early age; when the parents get back from their commute they are tired, eat some microwaved food, have a drink (or even a 'student cigarette') and watch the TV, happy for the kids to continue to do their own thing whether upstairs on the computer or out in their 'quiet' neighborhood with their pals....you can see where the 'horrified' bit comes in when they are found dead drunk.

Its the drink culture in this country that is the problem. We go out/drink to get drunk. In France I would have one small glass of wine pretty much every day with my lunch, but going out to get smashed on a Fri/Sat just doesn't happen over there. In my line of work, I see the results of this binge culture first hand with people in their early 30's developing cirrhosis of the liver through their excessive drinking from an early age. And the worst case I know of is a female. I was never denied a small, watered down glass of wine on special occasions when I was young, drink was always available in my house and none of my siblings have a drink problem either - as a result? I think so. And it is the way I will introduce my kids to drink.

Children normally drink if they're thirsty, so it could be that their thirst is connected to the consumption of junk food. Just a thought. Anyhow there is a reason why they do it.

God a rare thing a Herald thread we can all agree on - but how to deal with it? In many cases, the parents of these kids aren't fit to keep goldfish, and drink is now so easily available. And it is getting worse - and there's the other cheap drugs as well. I confess i don't know, but worse, i see no solutions coming from those who are supposed to know.

The socialist Welfare State has produced a civil Warfare State in our urban and rural communities. Reduction of sport, apart from those who excel, disciplinary/correct ive action misunderstood as 'bullying', oppressive H&S regulation obliterating many outdoor pursuits, groups and pastimes, over-protective parents, 'couldn't care less parent(s), absence of respect for institutions (family, education, police), idolatry of youth and (gawd help us) 'celebrities', the all-conquering PC/ "choice", 'Human Rights'(?) leagues of small-minded twerps, etc. have produced a degenerate section in our population whose behaviour costs the rest a disproportionate amount of grief - - but who has stood back and either voted for the above or let it happen - us! Perhaps when natural selection has killed off enough through liver disease and associated disorders, sadly taking some innocents with them, then perhaps that hour of execution might concentrate our minds to innovate a sense of self-respect and consideration for others which is missing today. Rights, privileges and monetary stability, whether in the home or in society, must be earned and not continue as an automatic act of 'benefit' literally earned by others for those who will not take part in decent society or contribute to it.

Alkie has been on the raw mince again. How does Alkie explain why Scotland has been a booze bag nation long before a so called middle class emerged. Does Alkie not know that the Clan Chiefs and the British supplied the foot soldiers with alcohol to fight their wars. Why do you think we are called poisoned dwarfs. What about the temperance movements of the 18/19 century. Hardly any middle class kicking about then. The fact is the Scots live in an irresponsible social work ridden blame culture.[bold]bold[/bold]

And I don't think the problem is restricted to ones social class. It is society wide. Although I now live in a working class area of Aberdeen and have never seen kids hanging round street corners drinking( although some of the adults round here make up for it!), I used to live in a suburb, Westhill, and some of the kids there would hang round the shopping centre at night with their bottles of vodka and alcopops and generally being a nuisance.

For Mums and Dads, I found "the cool spot"' for parents to see with your children. It's about Biology and Chemistry that will keep them from becoming History. Yes, alcohol can kill them. Lesson 1: How much alcohol is in a drink? Is a drink a drink or a drink? Compare drinks and find out exactly how much alcohol equals a single drink. Come back for more lessons. Check - the cool spot.gov/ facts. asp - with your child and do the quiz together.

Jail the parent for neglect and put the children into care. They couldn't get any worse a life than with parents who don't know how to look after them, adn more importanly don't care how to look after them

When they changed the opening hours in pubs it was meant to be the start of the sensible drinking culture. I'm afraid it has gone the opposite way and taught people they can swally 'til they drop. The price of drink in (some) pubs is far too cheap and in off licences and supermarkets they are almost giving it away. Its sad to see people with their weekly shopping trolley filled with booze with the odd loaf and packet of cornflakes hiding on the bottom.

Underage drinkers tend to congregate in large numbers, and communities know where. Often the communities know where the drink is obtained but are powerless to stop the sales to underage drinkers. On the other hand there are lots of young people who meet their friends outdoors, without causing any problem, and they are treated as a nuisance. Other countries expect people to socialise outdoors, in our the adults stay inside glued to the telly, and complain that young people need to be taken off the streets. There isn't a lot else for young people to do, they ought to have a range of options.

[quote][bold]Anne[/bold] wrote: Children normally drink if they're thirsty, so it could be that their thirst is connected to the consumption of junk food. Just a thought. Anyhow there is a reason why they do it.[/quote] Yeah, but your average 8 year old doesn't drink a bottle of lager. I agree that this is a classless problem, the only difference is in what they drink. The 'middle class' kids drinks spirits and alcopops and the 'working class' drink cheap fortified wine. In South Ayrshire thay have introduced a scheme where Off-Licences stamp their bottles to allow the Police to trace where the kids are getting their drink from, from the reports in the local press it seems to be effective. As someone who goes into a local housing estate with a mobile youth club I know that many parents don't seem to be aware of where their offsping are. That being said, when I was 10 - 12 years old my parents may have thought they knew where I was but lots of times when I told them I was at my friends I was off roaming the town with him, the only difference was we weren't off drinking and fighting.

No shortage of opinions here, I can agree with most and all well meaning. however I must worder at the solutions for seemingly all social problems is meet me down at the Rovers or the wooly or the Old Vic etc What an example to the masses or am I missing something. At the end of the day we are what we were brought up to be I believe it is called a value system. So it looks like community behaviour needs changing and that could require a club (not social).

This story is more symptomatic of the ills of society than it is a problem in itself. I wonder why these children feel safe in drinking alchohol so young or in drinking the amount that they do. I'd expect and element of 'like father, like son' to be present (or, as my father said, "Monkey see, monkey do.") I'd also expect that the normal societal restraints - such as shame and approbation - are absent. So what does that say about Scotland's society? Too much laissez-faire, too little penalty. Too much easy money, too little responsibility. Does our society really need cataclysmic events such as another war or a period of desperate poverty before it returns to habits that are good for it? Perhaps.

FM question time briefly covered this. Alex was missing but Nicola (very) competently dealt with the "biggest brain in Scotland". She adeptly twisted her sword (metaphorically speaking) after Wendy tried to create some panic and outrage about terrible - 'weally weally tewibble' - doings in Paisley, which Nicola unveiled as a totally cooked Labour/Pia sham. Ms Goldie raised the issue of alcohol and (very) young people. Nicola has suggested some radical proposals in the new Alcohol policy proposals. About time. The prevarication over the last decade by Labour and the LibDems has worsened a situation already left in a poor state by the Tories. Looks like another piece of pragmatic government by the SNP. Slainte Mhor

Never thought I'd be saying this, but I agree with 'Graham'. Even as far back as the 11th century Glasgow had 5 breweries churning out ale, heavy, lager etc. There's a fascinating story to the 80' beer, though it seems to have dropped of the planet now. The smaller towns dabbled in 'cottage' breweries, so it is obvious that Scotland has had a love affair with booze for over a thousand years; before feudal, class, and socialite cultures. 'Jack', "brain dead underclass who can't/don't/won't work and spend their free cash at their local offsales at 8:01am on a daily basis" and " I stay in a private house in a small town, drive a nice car and have a well paid professional job." These two quotes of yours seem to be more telling than the article! Has anyone ever considered that children drinking alcohol is a facet of UK government approved bad parenting, or as it has been more and more noticed now, that single mothers have a 'reduced legal capacity' as a responsible parent in society now? The way the propaganda coming out of the crown office in Scotland would let everyone believe that men are to blame for everything. The point here is that this is not cause and effect, it's prevarication of cause due to the effect. I know that my wife gave/allowed my 8 year olds to drink alcohol. But trying to get a judge to take this seriously is very difficult. May-be the 'middle-class' need an 'under-class' as to keep them (the middle-class), in their cushy jobs? if this is in-deed what is happening then it's hardly surprising, becuase it is representative of how the middle-class oppress the under-class in many other spheres of social being, divorce, criminalising, sentencing, custody, maintenance. It really is representative of the middle-class feudal machine using the underclass as fuel fodder to operate its machinations. Maybe?

allymax: Oh my! Another oppression! I tell you, reading these and The Scotsman's comment pages, I'm surprised Scotland doesn't start exporting oppression. It seems to have so much of it. "Oppressed by the English", "Oppressed by Westminster", "Oppressed by the middle-class" (that one's particularly precious). What on earth would certain people blame if the word had never been invented?

[quote][bold]Alkie[/bold] wrote: One day people will realize what I have been saying on these forums is correct. THE MIDDLE CLASS DESTROYED BRITISH CULTURE THE MOMENT THE MIDDLE CLASS ACCEPTED "SOCIAL DRINKING" AS A SOCIAL NORM. It's time for the middle class to rise up and save British civilization.[/quote] ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Hi JBlackley, lions tigers and bears, Oh my! What about subjugation? Tryanny? Inequality? But what a great idea, Scotland can start exporting our famously held oppressions. I'm gonna write a book on how engerland has purposely oppressed the Scots for hundreds of years, the same they did to America, india, etc. Thanks for the idea sir.

allymax, thank you for responding to my comment. As a matter of interest, do you consider yourself a member of the 'underclass' (a term I wouldn't coin myself) and, if so, how exactly have you been 'oppressed' by the middle class?