NOT SINCE the summer of ‘96 has the Scottish Labour Party been in such disarray over constitutional tactics. In many ways these were the best of times for Labour, with the Tories facing a parliamentary wipe-out North of the Border and Michael Forsyth staging a personal re-enactment of Custer’s last stand.
But still Labour got itself in a terrible fankle. In June of that year Tony Blair, the PM in waiting, announced that when his party came to power, as they would within a year, they would hold a referendum on Scottish devolution. Two questions would be asked, one on the broad principle and the other on whether tax-varying powers should be included.
Two months later his party’s Scottish executive rebelled against Blair and overturned the plans, eventually reaching a compromise in which there would be not a two-question referendum, but two referendums with three questions, the second referendum being being triggered if the tax power was ever to be invoked. Quite a thought, eh? What price Gordon Brown’s abolition of the 10p tax rate having to go to a plebiscite?
Anyway such was the ridicule heaped on the party at that time that George Robertson, shadow Scottish Secretary, was forced to overrule the executive’s decision just a week later. Within six months a ruthless New Labour purge of the executive ensured it would never embarrass the Great Leader again.
But Labour’s summer of ‘96 seems an oasis of calm by comparison with the chaos of ‘08. The first anniversary the SNP coming to power at Holyrood appears to have caused a rush of blood to Wendy Alexander’s head, and with it yesterday’s u-turn on holding a referendum.
Refusing any truck with another referendum on Scotland’s future if independence is an option on the ballot paper has been an article of faith for the Unionist coalition Labour has tried to construct with the Tories and LibDems.
Their chosen vehicle of change, the Scottish Constitutional Commission, was so purged of independent thought that George Reid was blackballed for membership. Gordon Brown didn’t even want it to called a commission. And when it finally convened last week both Westminster and Holyrood both wanted to run the show.
Still, Sir Kenneth Calman came across well on launch day and said he was determined to come up with a set of proposals by summer of next year. But then what? Is there any set of proposals that could conceivably satisfy all six clients? That is to say the three signed up political party groups at both Holyrood and Westminster?
And could anything conceivably come out of that which could be distilled into a White Paper that could serve as a referendum question? As they say about a horse designed by a committee, this all sounds like a bit of a camel and they’re now asking it to complete a steeplechase.
Perhaps the following scenario could just about be possible. I doubt it but let’s imagine a referendum in 2010. Even the uber-Unionists have agreed that the status quo is no longer tenable, but they have Calman’s “devolution-max” plan for fiscal autonomy and more devolved powers to rally around.
You therefore get a referendum ballot paper as follows:
Select one of the following:
“I agree that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the UK so that Scotland becomes an independent state.”
OR
“I agree that the powers of the Scottish Parliament should be extended in line with the the Calman Report.”
As I said above, I think there are simply too many hurdles to this. But whichever way you look at it, Wendy Alexander’s referendum u-turn means we are all dancing to Alex Salmond’s jig now.
[quote]Wendy Alexander’s referendum u-turn means we are all dancing to Alex Salmond’s jig now.[/quote]
And is this a bad thing?
For the first time in modern politics Scotland is being governed by a party who's sole aim is to act in the best interests of Scotland and its people, whether it is independent or not. The SNP have shown over the last 12 months what itis like to live in such a positive atmosphere, amidst the backdrop of a Labour party being shown to have taken Scotland for granted over the ast 50 years so they can prop up their westminster seats.
This apparent U-turn should be looked at with an UK eye IMO, Labour has lost their support in England, Wales and losing in Scotland, if they can take out the SNP in Scotland by means of a quick referendum they might just be able to squeeze through the next General Election, I have no doubt, given Labours history in Scotland, that this is what is driving Wendy Alexander and her colleagues.
Wendy Alexander’s referendum u-turn means we are all dancing to Alex Salmond’s jig now.
And is this a bad thing?
For the first time in modern politics Scotland is being governed by a party who's sole aim is to act in the best interests of Scotland and its people, whether it is independent or not. The SNP have shown over the last 12 months what itis like to live in such a positive atmosphere, amidst the backdrop of a Labour party being shown to have taken Scotland for granted over the ast 50 years so they can prop up their westminster seats.
This apparent U-turn should be looked at with an UK eye IMO, Labour has lost their support in England, Wales and losing in Scotland, if they can take out the SNP in Scotland by means of a quick referendum they might just be able to squeeze through the next General Election, I have no doubt, given Labours history in Scotland, that this is what is driving Wendy Alexander and her colleagues.
Alexander trying to trip up Mr Salmond is like the losing football team saying, "[italic]If we crock their captain, we'll win[/italic] ."
The dependence parties forget they are not taking on a political party, they are taking on a whole national movement - it's unstoppable, so they should start digging escape tunnels and post-independence alibis now.
Alexander trying to trip up Mr Salmond is like the losing football team saying, "If we crock their captain, we'll win ."
The dependence parties forget they are not taking on a political party, they are taking on a whole national movement - it's unstoppable, so they should start digging escape tunnels and post-independence alibis now.
Posted by: Grassy Knollington at 11:07am on Mon 5 May 08
I thought we were meant to be protecting "The Legend of Wendy's Brain". Now it's been exposed for the over- promoted, pea-sized, panicking piece of gristle it actually is. Let's dance.....
I thought we were meant to be protecting "The Legend of Wendy's Brain". Now it's been exposed for the over- promoted, pea-sized, panicking piece of gristle it actually is. Let's dance.....
So how dumb does Nicol Stephen look now?
His party are tombstoning in the polls and now he's being forced by Wendy Alexander into the very referendum he said was an [bold]absolute barrier[/bold] to a power-sharing coalition with the SNP. In his words about Salmond at that time:
"I made it clear to him that unless and until the SNP removes the fundamental barrier of a referendum on independence during the next four years, there can be no coalition."
The lib dems could have been in power from the start, but now they'll have to spend the next two years explaining why, as lib dems, they still insist on denying the scottish people their democratic rights - and that this is also a fundamental point of lib dem principle.
So how dumb does Nicol Stephen look now?
His party are tombstoning in the polls and now he's being forced by Wendy Alexander into the very referendum he said was an absolute barrier to a power-sharing coalition with the SNP. In his words about Salmond at that time:
"I made it clear to him that unless and until the SNP removes the fundamental barrier of a referendum on independence during the next four years, there can be no coalition."
The lib dems could have been in power from the start, but now they'll have to spend the next two years explaining why, as lib dems, they still insist on denying the scottish people their democratic rights - and that this is also a fundamental point of lib dem principle.
Posted by: Grassy Knollington at 11:25am on Mon 5 May 08
very good point Ratzo, Nicol and Annabel must be apoplectic this morning. Like the rest of Scotland they have been cynically used to try and save a few Labour skins.
It is becoming increasingly apparent that Labour in Scotland and indeed UK wide are blundering from crisis to disaster.
This U turn on independence is a huge gamble but they are backed up against a wall. They're actually willing to risk the Union to save a few of their own careers. From a Unionist Party that is real desperation.
Wendy's career prospects are so inextricably linked to Gordon's that you can see why she's lost the plot. When he crashes and burns , she goes down with him.
very good point Ratzo, Nicol and Annabel must be apoplectic this morning. Like the rest of Scotland they have been cynically used to try and save a few Labour skins.
It is becoming increasingly apparent that Labour in Scotland and indeed UK wide are blundering from crisis to disaster.
This U turn on independence is a huge gamble but they are backed up against a wall. They're actually willing to risk the Union to save a few of their own careers. From a Unionist Party that is real desperation.
Wendy's career prospects are so inextricably linked to Gordon's that you can see why she's lost the plot. When he crashes and burns , she goes down with him.
Ratzo
Absolutely right.
I just wonder who "briefed" Calman - before Nicol or Annabel. Although Dr Kenneth may not carry a Labour Party Card, its clear that his 'circle of friends' orbits Wendy and Gordon "GB" Brown.
Slainte Mhor
Ratzo
Absolutely right.
I just wonder who "briefed" Calman - before Nicol or Annabel. Although Dr Kenneth may not carry a Labour Party Card, its clear that his 'circle of friends' orbits Wendy and Gordon "GB" Brown.
Slainte Mhor
here robbie is douglas's aversion to horror flicks the reason you got to write this blog?
I have the feeling that douglas is the person in the horror movie who is saying lets go outside and see whats happening?
here robbie is douglas's aversion to horror flicks the reason you got to write this blog?
I have the feeling that douglas is the person in the horror movie who is saying lets go outside and see whats happening?
[quote][bold]Karin[/bold] wrote:
here robbie is douglas's aversion to horror flicks the reason you got to write this blog? I have the feeling that douglas is the person in the horror movie who is saying lets go outside and see whats happening?[/quote] Aye, reminds me of that American picture, "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes"
Karin wrote:
here robbie is douglas's aversion to horror flicks the reason you got to write this blog? I have the feeling that douglas is the person in the horror movie who is saying lets go outside and see whats happening?
Aye, reminds me of that American picture, "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes"
Jig - more like a highland fling...... Labour are in an absolute headpin...
From The Times Online, oh dear Wendy
[quote]
Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, said: [bold]“The Labour Party is cracking under pressure on the referendum question, and is being forced to consider supporting the right of the people to choose Scotland's future.”[/bold]
The Liberal Demcorats and the Conservatives were also sceptical of Ms Alexander's new approach to the constitutional question.
A Tory spokesman said: [bold]“Scotland's future should be decided by calm and mature debate, not by a knee jerk and panicky reaction to Labour's election meltdown.”[/bold]
Robert Brown, the Liberal Democrat chief whip, also described Ms Alexander's suggestion as a [bold]“panic response”[/bold] , adding that [bold]“politicians should not support referendums on policies which they do not back”[/bold] .
[/quote]
Jig - more like a highland fling...... Labour are in an absolute headpin...
From The Times Online, oh dear Wendy
Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, said: “The Labour Party is cracking under pressure on the referendum question, and is being forced to consider supporting the right of the people to choose Scotland's future.”
The Liberal Demcorats and the Conservatives were also sceptical of Ms Alexander's new approach to the constitutional question.
A Tory spokesman said: “Scotland's future should be decided by calm and mature debate, not by a knee jerk and panicky reaction to Labour's election meltdown.”
Robert Brown, the Liberal Democrat chief whip, also described Ms Alexander's suggestion as a “panic response” , adding that “politicians should not support referendums on policies which they do not back” .
I never saw wendy on TV, so could somebody tell me please, did she say, or was she even asked, in the event of yes (for independence) vote winning even by just one vote, that she and her cronies would accept the verdict?
I never saw wendy on TV, so could somebody tell me please, did she say, or was she even asked, in the event of yes (for independence) vote winning even by just one vote, that she and her cronies would accept the verdict?
[quote][bold]jim mitchell[/bold] wrote:
I never saw wendy on TV, so could somebody tell me please, did she say, or was she even asked, in the event of yes (for independence) vote winning even by just one vote, that she and her cronies would accept the verdict?[/quote] Wendy Alexander v Alec Salomnd - Politics Show 4th may 2008
[bold]tinyurl.com/4cnt66[/bold]
[italic]Wendy is on the last five minutes.....[/italic]
jim mitchell wrote:
I never saw wendy on TV, so could somebody tell me please, did she say, or was she even asked, in the event of yes (for independence) vote winning even by just one vote, that she and her cronies would accept the verdict?
Wendy Alexander v Alec Salomnd - Politics Show 4th may 2008 tinyurl.com/4cnt66
[quote][bold]Grassy Knollington[/bold] wrote:
I thought we were meant to be protecting "The Legend of Wendy's Brain". Now it's been exposed for the over- promoted, pea-sized, panicking piece of gristle it actually is. Let's dance.....[/quote] ... in the streets of Raith!
Grassy Knollington wrote:
I thought we were meant to be protecting "The Legend of Wendy's Brain". Now it's been exposed for the over- promoted, pea-sized, panicking piece of gristle it actually is. Let's dance.....
Posted by: Jock Politicaljunkie at 3:09pm on Mon 5 May 08
Great post Robbie and interesting to look back at the events of '96 & '97. Loved the image of Micheal Forsyth as General Custer.
Your assertion that this U-turn by Wendy was caused by a rush of blood to the brain may be true. Irrational decisions are often made by people under pressure - and boy is she under pressure. If Gordon goes then so does she. Her only hope is that the Tories are now so certain to win in 2010 that no one will challenge Gordon this side of inevitable defeat!
Would love to be a fly on the wall the next time Wendy meets Annabel Goldie and Nicol Stephen. Political waves?!? I think Wendy has just whipped up a Storm Force 10 out of 10.
Getting back to Michael Forsyth - he may have been little more than our Colonial Governor General, but he did acheive one thing for Scotland. He had the Stone of Destiny returned from London - that's if it is the real stone that is! (Wouldn't it be such a laugh if, after Independence, the real Stone of Destiny was produced along with evidential scroll from some hiding place!!!!)
What have Des Browne and Dave McChattering Cairns done for Scotland?? Other than insulting our intelligence,...........I can't think of anything.
Great post Robbie and interesting to look back at the events of '96 & '97. Loved the image of Micheal Forsyth as General Custer.
Your assertion that this U-turn by Wendy was caused by a rush of blood to the brain may be true. Irrational decisions are often made by people under pressure - and boy is she under pressure. If Gordon goes then so does she. Her only hope is that the Tories are now so certain to win in 2010 that no one will challenge Gordon this side of inevitable defeat!
Would love to be a fly on the wall the next time Wendy meets Annabel Goldie and Nicol Stephen. Political waves?!? I think Wendy has just whipped up a Storm Force 10 out of 10.
Getting back to Michael Forsyth - he may have been little more than our Colonial Governor General, but he did acheive one thing for Scotland. He had the Stone of Destiny returned from London - that's if it is the real stone that is! (Wouldn't it be such a laugh if, after Independence, the real Stone of Destiny was produced along with evidential scroll from some hiding place!!!!)
What have Des Browne and Dave McChattering Cairns done for Scotland?? Other than insulting our intelligence,...........I can't think of anything.
Posted by: David Alexander at 3:27pm on Mon 5 May 08
[quote]What have Des Browne and Dave McChattering Cairns done for Scotland?[/quote]
That funny noise you hear coming from Westminster is the erm, McClattering @rses.
What have Des Browne and Dave McChattering Cairns done for Scotland?
That funny noise you hear coming from Westminster is the erm, McClattering @rses.
Brillant post Robbie. Spot on.
Brown and Alexander are acting like some drunken rancher in a Wild West movie, betting their ranch on the next hand of cards.
Brillant post Robbie. Spot on.
Brown and Alexander are acting like some drunken rancher in a Wild West movie, betting their ranch on the next hand of cards.
jock the return of the stone of destiny had nothing to do with forsyth it was a decision by unesco that led to the return of the stone due to the work of the scotland un committee. The tories back then just did the same as labour did with devolution and claimed it was their idea.
when they actually wanted nothing to do with it.
jock the return of the stone of destiny had nothing to do with forsyth it was a decision by unesco that led to the return of the stone due to the work of the scotland un committee. The tories back then just did the same as labour did with devolution and claimed it was their idea.
Wendy's bizarre little surprise, an overt attempt to embarrass Alex Salmond, could rebound badly on her. She has just spent time and trouble arranging the Calman committee whose terms of reference specifically excluded consideration of independence. This was signed up to (unwisely in my view) by Annabel and Nicol as a pro-UK alliance. Now Wendy's in left field firing off randomly with a "referendum" challenge. If your were in Tory and Liberal shoes what are you going to think about the political acumen of your Labour partner in this deal? I know what I'd do and Wendy may have unintentionally wrecked the devolution commission as well as now embarking a high-risk (for her) ego project.
Wendy's bizarre little surprise, an overt attempt to embarrass Alex Salmond, could rebound badly on her. She has just spent time and trouble arranging the Calman committee whose terms of reference specifically excluded consideration of independence. This was signed up to (unwisely in my view) by Annabel and Nicol as a pro-UK alliance. Now Wendy's in left field firing off randomly with a "referendum" challenge. If your were in Tory and Liberal shoes what are you going to think about the political acumen of your Labour partner in this deal? I know what I'd do and Wendy may have unintentionally wrecked the devolution commission as well as now embarking a high-risk (for her) ego project.
[quote][bold]JohnM[/bold] wrote:
Wendy's bizarre little surprise, an overt attempt to embarrass Alex Salmond, could rebound badly on her. She has just spent time and trouble arranging the Calman committee whose terms of reference specifically excluded consideration of independence. This was signed up to (unwisely in my view) by Annabel and Nicol as a pro-UK alliance. Now Wendy's in left field firing off randomly with a "referendum" challenge. If your were in Tory and Liberal shoes what are you going to think about the political acumen of your Labour partner in this deal? I know what I'd do and Wendy may have unintentionally wrecked the devolution commission as well as now embarking a high-risk (for her) ego project.[/quote] John M, not just the Tories and the Libdems, even her own colleagues didn't know she was going to announce this.
I think she's bluffing personally. Salmond was interviewed first and he made it clear he isn't looking for a referendum right now. He said the SNP should be judged in government by the Scottish people first. Wendy seemed to be trying to make out that by calling for a referendum right now which the SNP don't want she can then accuse them of running scared. She definitely implied this in her interview. There is no way Labour want a referendum on independence and that's why I'm convinced she's bluffing.
I thought she looked a bag of nerves throughout the interview and was even more obnoxious than usual. I think she will have wound a lot of people up. In contrast Salmond was relaxed, confident and clearly very comfortable. It said it all.
JohnM wrote:
Wendy's bizarre little surprise, an overt attempt to embarrass Alex Salmond, could rebound badly on her. She has just spent time and trouble arranging the Calman committee whose terms of reference specifically excluded consideration of independence. This was signed up to (unwisely in my view) by Annabel and Nicol as a pro-UK alliance. Now Wendy's in left field firing off randomly with a "referendum" challenge. If your were in Tory and Liberal shoes what are you going to think about the political acumen of your Labour partner in this deal? I know what I'd do and Wendy may have unintentionally wrecked the devolution commission as well as now embarking a high-risk (for her) ego project.
John M, not just the Tories and the Libdems, even her own colleagues didn't know she was going to announce this.
I think she's bluffing personally. Salmond was interviewed first and he made it clear he isn't looking for a referendum right now. He said the SNP should be judged in government by the Scottish people first. Wendy seemed to be trying to make out that by calling for a referendum right now which the SNP don't want she can then accuse them of running scared. She definitely implied this in her interview. There is no way Labour want a referendum on independence and that's why I'm convinced she's bluffing.
I thought she looked a bag of nerves throughout the interview and was even more obnoxious than usual. I think she will have wound a lot of people up. In contrast Salmond was relaxed, confident and clearly very comfortable. It said it all.
Hopefully the press will start probing Wendy to find otu exactly what it is that she supports.
A. Multi-option referendum containing Calman Recommendations
B. Straight out Independence v Status Quo
Salmond would be as well introducing his bill as he promised in 2010, with full consideration of the Calman recommendations and consensus in the Scottish parliament.
Hopefully the press will start probing Wendy to find otu exactly what it is that she supports.
A. Multi-option referendum containing Calman Recommendations
B. Straight out Independence v Status Quo
Salmond would be as well introducing his bill as he promised in 2010, with full consideration of the Calman recommendations and consensus in the Scottish parliament.
JohnM at 4:40pm today[quote]Wendy may have unintentionally wrecked the devolution commission as well as now embarking a high-risk (for her) ego project.[/quote] Before this announcement by Wendy the Calman Commission was all about how to keep Scotland in the Union by tinkering with devolution and not talking about independence. Now its sole purpose will be to provide the third option on the independence referendum ballot paper.
By continuing to support the Calman Commission Nicol Stephen and Annabel Goldie will be supporting its role as the generator of the third option in the he independence referendum and implicitly supporting the referendum. I think the commission is going to go belly-up very shortly.
JohnM at 4:40pm today
Wendy may have unintentionally wrecked the devolution commission as well as now embarking a high-risk (for her) ego project.
Before this announcement by Wendy the Calman Commission was all about how to keep Scotland in the Union by tinkering with devolution and not talking about independence. Now its sole purpose will be to provide the third option on the independence referendum ballot paper.
By continuing to support the Calman Commission Nicol Stephen and Annabel Goldie will be supporting its role as the generator of the third option in the he independence referendum and implicitly supporting the referendum. I think the commission is going to go belly-up very shortly.
has anyone asked callman or any members of the constipation commision what they think. I mean i imagine they will be very concerned? given that callman said he was a unionist.
has anyone asked callman or any members of the constipation commision what they think. I mean i imagine they will be very concerned? given that callman said he was a unionist.
[quote][bold]Strathturret[/bold] wrote:
Brillant post Robbie. Spot on.
Brown and Alexander are acting like some drunken rancher in a Wild West movie, betting their ranch on the next hand of cards.[/quote] Time for a labour re-branding?
Strathturret wrote:
Brillant post Robbie. Spot on.
Brown and Alexander are acting like some drunken rancher in a Wild West movie, betting their ranch on the next hand of cards.
[quote][bold]Melanthios[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Strathturret[/bold] wrote: Brillant post Robbie. Spot on. Brown and Alexander are acting like some drunken rancher in a Wild West movie, betting their ranch on the next hand of cards.[/quote] Time for a labour re-branding?[/quote] Brokeback Party
Melanthios wrote:
Strathturret wrote: Brillant post Robbie. Spot on. Brown and Alexander are acting like some drunken rancher in a Wild West movie, betting their ranch on the next hand of cards.
I wonder how mega brain will get on at the next FMQ's since she was only capable of ranting garbage against the government over bwoken pwomithes and, yep, u-turns.
I wonder how mega brain will get on at the next FMQ's since she was only capable of ranting garbage against the government over bwoken pwomithes and, yep, u-turns.
A Highland Jig alright,
Maybe now , just now the people of this nation will not receive the daily journalistic a*rse-licking of the Scottish Labour Party that is so all prevailing.
A Highland Jig alright,
Maybe now , just now the people of this nation will not receive the daily journalistic a*rse-licking of the Scottish Labour Party that is so all prevailing.
Posted by: Martin McDonald at 7:44pm on Tue 6 May 08
Gordon Brown. Wendy Alexander. Labour.
They STILL haven't got it. They honestly have no idea just how loathed and detested they are.
Watching the agonising death of the New Labour project is an absolute delight.
Isn't it Robbie?
Gordon Brown. Wendy Alexander. Labour.
They STILL haven't got it. They honestly have no idea just how loathed and detested they are.
Watching the agonising death of the New Labour project is an absolute delight.
remind me again, how many signatures do you need to have someone sectioned?? I honestly think that labour have gone completely mad. It is so much better than reality tv and more brilliantly painful to watch. Pity we can't comment on the stories but we are not allowed to say anything about the untouchable u-turning unionista. This has got to be the slowest most agonising death of a party ever!
remind me again, how many signatures do you need to have someone sectioned?? I honestly think that labour have gone completely mad. It is so much better than reality tv and more brilliantly painful to watch. Pity we can't comment on the stories but we are not allowed to say anything about the untouchable u-turning unionista. This has got to be the slowest most agonising death of a party ever!
Robbie.
I think you need to do a piece seriously bringing into question Wendy Alexander's suitability for leading the opposition in Scotland.
These last few days have shown that she is incapable of leadership and consistently fails under detailed scrutiny in interviews.
Her grasp of detailed holyrood procedures seems to be extremely loose and dare i say it 'cavalier'
Robbie.
I think you need to do a piece seriously bringing into question Wendy Alexander's suitability for leading the opposition in Scotland.
These last few days have shown that she is incapable of leadership and consistently fails under detailed scrutiny in interviews.
Her grasp of detailed holyrood procedures seems to be extremely loose and dare i say it 'cavalier'
Hey Robbie and the Scottish Patriots. I would like to refer you to my post on the politics thread. It answers a few questions on why Wendy, Wendied Bigtime.
Hey Robbie and the Scottish Patriots. I would like to refer you to my post on the politics thread. It answers a few questions on why Wendy, Wendied Bigtime.