Hope for green power as grid chief admits charges unfair
THE head of the National Grid has called for a fresh look at the laws governing charges for entry to the energy network in the new age of renewables.
Steve Holliday yesterday met First Minister Alex Salmond, who has been a vocal critic of the existing charging regime which makes it more expensive to put power into the grid in the very northern climes where renewables such as a wave and offshore wind will be generated.
Mr Holliday also came to Scotland with a firm commitment to two major undersea power cables off the west and east coasts as a way of linking future renewables to a European sub-sea grid.
Mr Holliday, chief executive of National Grid, argued that current charges were wrong, but were not the primary issue. He highlighted that Scotland already had more than half of the UK's approved alternative energy sites but fewer than a fifth of these had been given planning permission. He also pointed to the way current rules force a queueing system for some projects which did not permit a judgment on viability.
Mr Holliday is pushing the idea of two undersea cables, one from Peterhead to Tyneside and the other from Scotland's West Coast to Wales, which fit into the idea of interconnectors with Ireland and with Europe.
This must be decided soon, he says, before another wave of offshore applications are approved on the basis of localised connections rather than this bigger picture.
He emphasised that the current charging regime was based on Westminster statute. After his meeting with Mr Holliday yesterday the First Minister said: "Today the National Grid told us that they accepted the whole system was due for fundamental review.
"There is no justification for charging a power station in Longannet £33m when it would pay - not charge - an equivalent power station in London £13m. Similarly, Peterhead would be charged £30m while a power station in Seabank, in the South West of England, would be paid £3.05m.
"Yesterday I met with council leaders from the Highlands and Islands - the areas most discriminated against under this intolerable regime. They told me that charges of up to £80 per kilowatt have been quoted to developers in Orkney.
"Such extremes of charging can have no justification and similar examples were put to me from Shetlands and the Western Isles."
Mr Salmond added: "Scotland is the most energy rich nation in Europe, with an unrivalled array of potentially cheap, renewable and low-carbon energy sources.
"We have the ability and skills to develop clean coal and carbon capture and storage technologies. UK and Europe need Scotland to help meet renewable and carbon reduction targets. Yet the existing transmission charging regime is nonsensical and counter-productive, working against the development of these resources."
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Posted by: billkdy, kirkcaldy on 11:12pm Thu 17 Apr 08
A sub-sea European grid could help avoid the endless controversy about pylons straddling accross tourist-attracting lanscapes, and even out the erratic supply from local wind/wave generators.
A sub-sea European grid could help avoid the endless controversy about pylons straddling accross tourist-attracting lanscapes, and even out the erratic supply from local wind/wave generators.
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 11:53pm Thu 17 Apr 08
So even if red wendy gets her way and hand power back to w/minster, enabling them to build nuclear stations in Scotland. Then they would have been uncompetitive due to the w/minster price fix.
What we are seeing here is reality biting, and realisation that without the power Scotland can generate England will freeze or pay through the nose
So even if red wendy gets her way and hand power back to w/minster, enabling them to build nuclear stations in Scotland. Then they would have been uncompetitive due to the w/minster price fix.
What we are seeing here is reality biting, and realisation that without the power Scotland can generate England will freeze or pay through the nose
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 12:56am Fri 18 Apr 08
There is as much hope for green power in scotland as there is of the messiah signing for the gers tommorow being eligible to play against fiorentina and scoring the winning goal in the final. The chances of any of this sort of thing happening without somebody sorting out the joke that is planning permission. There are too many people with too many contrasting ideas about what is needed. The RSPCA is guily of being the least green charity on the planet if a spotted warty falcons morning dip could be affected by a wind turbine they are up in arms blocking construction. Scotland beware the global green energy jamboree is passing you by there is more hope of building a new nuclear bomb than a large obtrusive wind plant taking shape in our countryside or tidal generators cloggings our rivers and beaches.
There is as much hope for green power in scotland as there is of the messiah signing for the gers tommorow being eligible to play against fiorentina and scoring the winning goal in the final. The chances of any of this sort of thing happening without somebody sorting out the joke that is planning permission. There are too many people with too many contrasting ideas about what is needed. The RSPCA is guily of being the least green charity on the planet if a spotted warty falcons morning dip could be affected by a wind turbine they are up in arms blocking construction. Scotland beware the global green energy jamboree is passing you by there is more hope of building a new nuclear bomb than a large obtrusive wind plant taking shape in our countryside or tidal generators cloggings our rivers and beaches.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 5:30am Fri 18 Apr 08
Scotland supplies power to England and NI at a rate cheaper than here. No wonder Bendy is quiet about that then. She is happy to see Scotland powerless and under the control of her Electrical Commission.
Scotland supplies power to England and NI at a rate cheaper than here. No wonder Bendy is quiet about that then. She is happy to see Scotland powerless and under the control of her Electrical Commission.
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 6:35am Fri 18 Apr 08
Interesting article from Dinwoodie, I am pleased that the charging system has been acknowledged as unfair.
Scotland renewables potential is the way forward, investment in this area should be huge. We should be seeing ewn University graduates swarming all ovr this fledgling industry.
If I was a Westminster politician I would certainly fight tooth and nail to hang onto an energy rich Scotland.
Interesting article from Dinwoodie, I am pleased that the charging system has been acknowledged as unfair.
Scotland renewables potential is the way forward, investment in this area should be huge. We should be seeing ewn University graduates swarming all ovr this fledgling industry.
If I was a Westminster politician I would certainly fight tooth and nail to hang onto an energy rich Scotland.
Posted by: Kerr Out!, East Kilbride on 8:53am Fri 18 Apr 08
A bit of direct action is required here. If they don't give Scottish power producers parity in connection charges then maybe it's time for a few peak interval power cuts. They want our excess power on the cheap to cuver their capacity shortfalls.
Some planned interruptions will focus some political minds as to who is in control of the generating capacity.
A bit of direct action is required here. If they don't give Scottish power producers parity in connection charges then maybe it's time for a few peak interval power cuts. They want our excess power on the cheap to cuver their capacity shortfalls.
Some planned interruptions will focus some political minds as to who is in control of the generating capacity.
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 9:50am Fri 18 Apr 08
[italic]Kerr Out!, East Kilbride on 8:53am today[/italic]
They are not putting all their eggs in one basket.
With the interconnecter between France (nuclear) and S England there is no chance that power supply can be used as a political weapon. Except against Scotland in the form of excess transmission charges which would make the whole thing unviable.
Kerr Out!, East Kilbride on 8:53am today
They are not putting all their eggs in one basket.
With the interconnecter between France (nuclear) and S England there is no chance that power supply can be used as a political weapon. Except against Scotland in the form of excess transmission charges which would make the whole thing unviable.
Posted by: The West Awake, Argyll on 10:25am Fri 18 Apr 08
What must also happen is that the price of ROCs (Renewable Obligation Certificates) must be differentiated in favour of small and renewable suppliers.
Without this the financial incentives to renewable suppliers of energy will not be sufficient to stimulate enough investment.
Another aspect of energy policy where the UK is failing Scotland.
Does anyone seriously doubt that UK control of our energy policies is anything other than detrimental to Scotland and should be ended?
What must also happen is that the price of ROCs (Renewable Obligation Certificates) must be differentiated in favour of small and renewable suppliers.
Without this the financial incentives to renewable suppliers of energy will not be sufficient to stimulate enough investment.
Another aspect of energy policy where the UK is failing Scotland.
Does anyone seriously doubt that UK control of our energy policies is anything other than detrimental to Scotland and should be ended?
Posted by: spagan, heisker, scotland on 11:28am Fri 18 Apr 08
See you're wide awake across the Minch!
Absolutely right.
It took pretty well a decade of Dithery Donal, Hands up Henry and Jumpin Jackto make zero progress on this one.
At least now the boss has forced out an admission that the system is unfair and due for review.
Someone wrote a poem once - not sure if its about New Labour, the Lib Dems or just their various leaders:
[bold][italic]You're as useless as a sheet with no bed
You're as useless as a pencil with no lead
You're as useless as a watch with no time
You're as useless as a poem with no rhyme
You're as useless as a book with no words
You're as useless as a a birdbath with no birds
You're as useless as an orchestra with no sound
You're as useless as a football that's not round
You're as useless as a runner with no legs
You're as useless as a clothes line without pegs
Did I mention that you're USELESS?[/italic] [/bold]
Slainte Mhor
See you're wide awake across the Minch!
Absolutely right.
It took pretty well a decade of Dithery Donal, Hands up Henry and Jumpin Jackto make zero progress on this one.
At least now the boss has forced out an admission that the system is unfair and due for review.
Someone wrote a poem once - not sure if its about New Labour, the Lib Dems or just their various leaders:
You're as useless as a sheet with no bed
You're as useless as a pencil with no lead
You're as useless as a watch with no time
You're as useless as a poem with no rhyme
You're as useless as a book with no words
You're as useless as a a birdbath with no birds
You're as useless as an orchestra with no sound
You're as useless as a football that's not round
You're as useless as a runner with no legs
You're as useless as a clothes line without pegs
Did I mention that you're USELESS?
Slainte Mhor
Posted by: nabodican, Rural Scotland on 11:30am Fri 18 Apr 08
Actually they are fair and encourage power generation to be located where it is required.
All of the grid strengthening proposals are purely at the instigation of the wind industry to bolster their hugely subsidised profits.
We will end up paying even more for our electricity if his wishes are granted.
Actually they are fair and encourage power generation to be located where it is required.
All of the grid strengthening proposals are purely at the instigation of the wind industry to bolster their hugely subsidised profits.
We will end up paying even more for our electricity if his wishes are granted.
Posted by: spagan, heisker, scotland on 12:08pm Fri 18 Apr 08
What on earth is FAIR about:
[quote] ..........Peterhead would be charged £30m while a power station in Seabank, in the South West of England, would be paid £3.05m.[/quote]
And I think that you'll find that's irrespective of wind or gas or whatever.
If Sutherland gets 1% of its surface area dressed with attractive turbines, it means ther is still 99% of wilderness for the wildlife.
Slainte Mhor
What on earth is FAIR about:
..........Peterhead would be charged £30m while a power station in Seabank, in the South West of England, would be paid £3.05m.
And I think that you'll find that's irrespective of wind or gas or whatever.
If Sutherland gets 1% of its surface area dressed with attractive turbines, it means ther is still 99% of wilderness for the wildlife.
Slainte Mhor
Posted by: Big Boy Did It, And Ran Away on 12:47pm Fri 18 Apr 08
[quote]Actually they are fair and encourage power generation to be located where it is required.[/quote]
Eh? Skewed view of fairness there I think. Also somewhat misses the point of moving to sustainable renewables - the generation capability is not necessarily on the doorstep of the consumer.
Or would you rather the SE be peppered with Nuclear Stations? I wouldn't. As the Liebour party keep pointing out, there is no local solution to global warming / climate change.
[quote]We will end up paying even more for our electricity if his wishes are granted.[/quote]
Oh no! Heaven forbid we have to pay more for a more sustainable future. Initial outlay yes, but running / waste costs somewhat lower no? Ah, remember when nuclear power was going to make electricity too cheap to bother to meter? And they're 10 a penny to set up of course.
I agree with Jonny Bond re. all the objectors that come crawling out whenever a proposal is tabled. Gies a break, NIMBYism, the poor wee birdies etc. Let the planning process be streamlined to let this important issue get moving.
BTW, Any news on the 180 turbine wind farm? I for one, reckon it would be a good thing to get the go ahead.
Actually they are fair and encourage power generation to be located where it is required.
Eh? Skewed view of fairness there I think. Also somewhat misses the point of moving to sustainable renewables - the generation capability is not necessarily on the doorstep of the consumer.
Or would you rather the SE be peppered with Nuclear Stations? I wouldn't. As the Liebour party keep pointing out, there is no local solution to global warming / climate change.
We will end up paying even more for our electricity if his wishes are granted.
Oh no! Heaven forbid we have to pay more for a more sustainable future. Initial outlay yes, but running / waste costs somewhat lower no? Ah, remember when nuclear power was going to make electricity too cheap to bother to meter? And they're 10 a penny to set up of course.
I agree with Jonny Bond re. all the objectors that come crawling out whenever a proposal is tabled. Gies a break, NIMBYism, the poor wee birdies etc. Let the planning process be streamlined to let this important issue get moving.
BTW, Any news on the 180 turbine wind farm? I for one, reckon it would be a good thing to get the go ahead.
Posted by: JBlackley, Florida on 2:02pm Fri 18 Apr 08
I think the principle of charging more for power generators (who are far from the users of that power) more to join the grid than for local generators is sound. The numbers, however, seem pretty extreme.
Is National Grid a publicly-held company? If it is, then its books ought to be open to inspection and, if it is making a disproportionate amount of profit from these charges then it can be pressured to ease them.
As for the 'renewables' and Mr. Salmond's claim that Scotland is the most energy-rich country in Europe, when will the word 'potentially' be removed from all of these conversations?
I think the principle of charging more for power generators (who are far from the users of that power) more to join the grid than for local generators is sound. The numbers, however, seem pretty extreme.
Is National Grid a publicly-held company? If it is, then its books ought to be open to inspection and, if it is making a disproportionate amount of profit from these charges then it can be pressured to ease them.
As for the 'renewables' and Mr. Salmond's claim that Scotland is the most energy-rich country in Europe, when will the word 'potentially' be removed from all of these conversations?
Posted by: Jimmiethe1, Doonthe Watter on 2:11pm Fri 18 Apr 08
Much as I hate to put facts in the way of wild surmise, advocates of windpower in northern Scotland (never mind offshore) have to face up to the economic fact that windpower up here is worth an awful lot less than nuclear power down there. And it will stay that way unless someone (aka us customers) is willing to pay for lots more transmission capacity from here to there (oops, did someone mention the Beauly-Denny line?). Putting the cicruits offshore (North Sea or Western Approaches) is just a pipe dream (and a wet one at that). If you think £30/kW transmission charge is expensive, wait till you see the bill for an offshore HVDC link!
Much as I hate to put facts in the way of wild surmise, advocates of windpower in northern Scotland (never mind offshore) have to face up to the economic fact that windpower up here is worth an awful lot less than nuclear power down there. And it will stay that way unless someone (aka us customers) is willing to pay for lots more transmission capacity from here to there (oops, did someone mention the Beauly-Denny line?). Putting the cicruits offshore (North Sea or Western Approaches) is just a pipe dream (and a wet one at that). If you think £30/kW transmission charge is expensive, wait till you see the bill for an offshore HVDC link!
Posted by: Maxgen, Glasgow on 12:49pm Sat 19 Apr 08
This article makes me laugh! Did the SNP pressroom write it? NGC have issued no press releases regarding this meeting, so presumably we are only hearing SNP's spin on the meeting.
If a generator wants to connect to the grid, in an area that has very little grid infrastructure, due to the lack of local demand, then it is entirely fair that the generator pays for the cost of extending the grid. After all it is the generator who recieves the economic benefits and should bear all the economic costs as well. It is the classic resource extraction problem.
There is a problem with renewables projects that they are small in scale, even the large ones, relative to the costs of extending the grid. One project could not bear these costs on it's own but many projects potentially could. These projects developed by many different companies so there is no co-ordination of effort. Each company picks the best site in terms of wind resources, regardless of how difficult/expensive it is to connect to the Grid.
There is nothing unfair about the way renewables generators are being charged. The renewables industry needs to respond to the issues of scale. Nothing gets done quickly if only small scale projects are considered.
In comparission building a nuclear power station is a much simplier process, usually they can be built close to the existing grid, but since they are of a much greater scale, any grid extension can be included in the economics of one project, and less companies to deal with.
This article makes me laugh! Did the SNP pressroom write it? NGC have issued no press releases regarding this meeting, so presumably we are only hearing SNP's spin on the meeting.
If a generator wants to connect to the grid, in an area that has very little grid infrastructure, due to the lack of local demand, then it is entirely fair that the generator pays for the cost of extending the grid. After all it is the generator who recieves the economic benefits and should bear all the economic costs as well. It is the classic resource extraction problem.
There is a problem with renewables projects that they are small in scale, even the large ones, relative to the costs of extending the grid. One project could not bear these costs on it's own but many projects potentially could. These projects developed by many different companies so there is no co-ordination of effort. Each company picks the best site in terms of wind resources, regardless of how difficult/expensive it is to connect to the Grid.
There is nothing unfair about the way renewables generators are being charged. The renewables industry needs to respond to the issues of scale. Nothing gets done quickly if only small scale projects are considered.
In comparission building a nuclear power station is a much simplier process, usually they can be built close to the existing grid, but since they are of a much greater scale, any grid extension can be included in the economics of one project, and less companies to deal with.
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