SNP hails increased support for Scottish independence
SNP leaders today hailed a poll which showed support for independence had increased, with two fifths of Scots now in favour of ending the Union.
The survey found 41% of those questioned approved of Scotland becoming independent - only slightly less than the 43% who disapproved of such a move.
Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the poll put support for independence and the status quo at "neck and neck"
Progressive Scottish Opinion carried out the survey, questioning 1,112 people between April 2 and 8.
The results showed a rise in support for independence compared to a survey carried out by the same firm in August last year.
Then 31% said they backed independence, while 49% were against.
This latest poll suggested support for independence was greatest amongst younger adults and lower earners, with 47% of both 25 to 34 year olds and the C2 socio-economic group giving it their support.
Those in the oldest and youngest age groups were least in favour, with 50% of those aged 65 and over against independence and 48% of those in the 18 to 24 age range also opposed.
And men are marginally more in favour of Scotland becoming independent than women, with 42% of males surveyed supporting this compared to 40% of females.
Ms Sturgeon, also the SNP depute leader, commented: "The poll shows a surge in support for independence of 10 points since last summer, and is now running neck and neck with the status quo.
"It clearly demonstrates that support for equality for Scotland is on the increase, along with the SNP's poll ratings, and is being boosted by our solid record of delivery in office - including freezing the council tax, cutting business rates, abolishing prescription charges, and restoring free education in Scotland.
"As the SNP administration delivers good government in the devolved areas, so we will build the case for Scotland to be governed equally well in all areas."
She also claimed that the "negative attitude" of the UK Government to the Scottish administration was helping increase support for independence.
There have been rows between Holyrood and Westminster over issues such as whether Scotland would keep the money it currently receives in council tax benefit if a local income tax was introduced.
But Ms Sturgeon said: "The more the London Treasury tries to lay down the law to Scotland, the greater the support there will be for independence and equality for Scotland."
She added: "The Unionist parties are running scared of the right of the people to decide Scotland's future in a democratic referendum - and no wonder, on the basis of these figures."
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Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 9:57am Thu 10 Apr 08
Looks good, but it IS only a poll, so a large pinch of salt is needed.....
Roll on the election!!
Looks good, but it IS only a poll, so a large pinch of salt is needed.....
Roll on the election!!
Posted by: TheGlaswegian, Edinburgh on 10:09am Thu 10 Apr 08
And just last week we were being told that support for independence was at it's lowest ever...
And just last week we were being told that support for independence was at it's lowest ever...
Posted by: Craig H, Cathcart on 10:09am Thu 10 Apr 08
These polls go up and down, up and down depending upon who is doing the asking and how they word the question - personally I find it hard to believe any of them. The only real test will be a referendum.
These polls go up and down, up and down depending upon who is doing the asking and how they word the question - personally I find it hard to believe any of them. The only real test will be a referendum.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 10:10am Thu 10 Apr 08
I'm not surprised by this.
The SNP government puts the interests of Scots first.
The SNP government actually listen to Scots.
The SNP government actually seek to turn Scottish aspirations into reality.
This SNP government has shown itself to be competent, and gets the job done.
The Unionist notion that Scots are too stupid, too poor, too feart and that Scotland is to small has been turned on it's head by this SNP government.
It is the Scottish Unionists that are too stupid, poor, feart and now diminished.
This increase in support for independence is a hammer blow to Unionists and the Unionist media, who for the last 18 months have conducted a concerted dirty tricks campaign against the SNP. That has failed miserably.
Now, lets have that referendum on independence.
I'm not surprised by this.
The SNP government puts the interests of Scots first.
The SNP government actually listen to Scots.
The SNP government actually seek to turn Scottish aspirations into reality.
This SNP government has shown itself to be competent, and gets the job done.
The Unionist notion that Scots are too stupid, too poor, too feart and that Scotland is to small has been turned on it's head by this SNP government.
It is the Scottish Unionists that are too stupid, poor, feart and now diminished.
This increase in support for independence is a hammer blow to Unionists and the Unionist media, who for the last 18 months have conducted a concerted dirty tricks campaign against the SNP. That has failed miserably.
Now, lets have that referendum on independence.
Posted by: Macuistean, Isle of Tiree on 10:11am Thu 10 Apr 08
Comments please from AM2, Des Browne, Gordon (Maggie) Brown, Darling, Alexander and all the other great britons.
Comments please from AM2, Des Browne, Gordon (Maggie) Brown, Darling, Alexander and all the other great britons.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 10:15am Thu 10 Apr 08
Support for the Union will be tied to how well the SNP can govern. Knowing that, Labour will do all it can to derail it, by harrassment, by undemocractic means, by mendacity.
But, and it's critical ...
The numbers in support of independence will get boosted by how much the voter judges the opposition unneccesarily confrontational and undemocratic in its attacks on the government of Scotland.
Support for the Union will be tied to how well the SNP can govern. Knowing that, Labour will do all it can to derail it, by harrassment, by undemocractic means, by mendacity.
But, and it's critical ...
The numbers in support of independence will get boosted by how much the voter judges the opposition unneccesarily confrontational and undemocratic in its attacks on the government of Scotland.
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 10:17am Thu 10 Apr 08
Craig
[italic]These polls go up and down, up and down depending upon who is doing the asking and how they word the question - personally
I find it hard to believe any of them. The only real test will be a referendum[/italic]
That is true. Everyone wants to make political capital. But the people who have been banging on incessantly about only 25% of the electrorate wanting independence (especially Labourites, Liberals, and Journalists) will have to put a sock in it now.
It may also make the Treasury have a rethink about their anti-Scottish stance.
Craig
These polls go up and down, up and down depending upon who is doing the asking and how they word the question - personally
I find it hard to believe any of them. The only real test will be a referendum
That is true. Everyone wants to make political capital. But the people who have been banging on incessantly about only 25% of the electrorate wanting independence (especially Labourites, Liberals, and Journalists) will have to put a sock in it now.
It may also make the Treasury have a rethink about their anti-Scottish stance.
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 10:21am Thu 10 Apr 08
Perhaps it's now time for the opposition parties at Holyrood to re- group and to get in place, proper relevant policies that will represent their followers in an independant Scotland.
I take it that if the current leaders of these parties are not planning for the future, then new people will emerge that will want to offer the people alternative outlooks for how the country should be run.
I suppose that the SNP has representation of right wing, liberal and left wing views, so I am sure that when the SNP has to eventually disband then there will be many strong candidates to lead opposition parties within our independant Scotland.
Perhaps it's now time for the opposition parties at Holyrood to re- group and to get in place, proper relevant policies that will represent their followers in an independant Scotland.
I take it that if the current leaders of these parties are not planning for the future, then new people will emerge that will want to offer the people alternative outlooks for how the country should be run.
I suppose that the SNP has representation of right wing, liberal and left wing views, so I am sure that when the SNP has to eventually disband then there will be many strong candidates to lead opposition parties within our independant Scotland.
Posted by: talorthane on 10:22am Thu 10 Apr 08
When does a non-issue become an issue?
This puts the Calman group / Wendy Commission / Brown Review under a very harsh light.
Kenneth Calman declared that they would not include independence within their remit was that it was supported by only 23% of the population (on the basis of one poll).
Now we have another poll, a more recent poll, and one that continues a trend, rather than being at odds with it.
I'm sure they didn't expect such a surge of support for independence in such a short space of time. But how do they justify the ommission of independence from their considerations now?
Then again, perhaps this refusal has some influence on those interviewed in this poll.
When does a non-issue become an issue?
This puts the Calman group / Wendy Commission / Brown Review under a very harsh light.
Kenneth Calman declared that they would not include independence within their remit was that it was supported by only 23% of the population (on the basis of one poll).
Now we have another poll, a more recent poll, and one that continues a trend, rather than being at odds with it.
I'm sure they didn't expect such a surge of support for independence in such a short space of time. But how do they justify the ommission of independence from their considerations now?
Then again, perhaps this refusal has some influence on those interviewed in this poll.
Posted by: sam, greenock on 10:26am Thu 10 Apr 08
The best laugh is that the unionist parties, especially the lieboor lot are the greatest asset the independence movement has, not only that they don't even realise it............
The best laugh is that the unionist parties, especially the lieboor lot are the greatest asset the independence movement has, not only that they don't even realise it............
Posted by: Malkster, Scotland on 10:28am Thu 10 Apr 08
A very succesful poll for the SNP but until they get to about 55% I don't think they will push for a referendum. It is a massive decision and undoubtedly some people will vote no in private.
A very succesful poll for the SNP but until they get to about 55% I don't think they will push for a referendum. It is a massive decision and undoubtedly some people will vote no in private.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 10:32am Thu 10 Apr 08
[bold]If the rantings of Kerr over the Budget debate are anything to go by, Labour are in for many more years as an opposition party.
He must think the voter completely dim and gullible, unable to discern reasoned debate from envy and vitriol.[/bold]
Frothing at the mouth from a debating chamber desk does not confer statesmanship on a rabid baboon.
If the rantings of Kerr over the Budget debate are anything to go by, Labour are in for many more years as an opposition party.
He must think the voter completely dim and gullible, unable to discern reasoned debate from envy and vitriol.
Frothing at the mouth from a debating chamber desk does not confer statesmanship on a rabid baboon.
Posted by: The Voice of Reason, Blairgowrie on 10:32am Thu 10 Apr 08
[italic]Jwil writes: - It may also make the Treasury have a rethink about their anti-Scottish stance[/italic] .
I hope not. In the interests of this wonderful auld Scotia - long live Catch 22: there's nothing more damaging to the Union than the London Scots portraying themselves in the tabloids as putting British interests first and Scottish ones in the low key meltwaters to protect their wallets and egos from the wrath of the Great British voter.
It's better than beautiful.
VoR
Jwil writes: - It may also make the Treasury have a rethink about their anti-Scottish stance .
I hope not. In the interests of this wonderful auld Scotia - long live Catch 22: there's nothing more damaging to the Union than the London Scots portraying themselves in the tabloids as putting British interests first and Scottish ones in the low key meltwaters to protect their wallets and egos from the wrath of the Great British voter.
It's better than beautiful.
VoR
Posted by: John Leven, Leven Fife on 10:34am Thu 10 Apr 08
[bold]"As the SNP administration delivers good government in the devolved areas, so we will build the case for Scotland to be governed equally well in all areas."[/bold]
That statement from Nicola Sturgeon says it it. You can just see the next election campaign, and I am including Westminster as well as Holyrood, this what we have achieved so far, but this is what we could have achieved if it was not for Westminster interference. The only vote to move Scotland forward is independence
Soloman Stirling.
Why would the SNP have to disband? Do you think that once we get rid of all the self seeking numpties who have dragged Scotland down, we should suddenly let them back into power so they can start to run Scotland down again?
New Labour is finished for good in Scotland, thanks to Broon, Browne, Cairns and co. The only way for Labour to save themselves is for a Scottish Labour party to break away before they are thrown out of office, and prove that they can provide coherent worthwhile opposition to a democratically elected government. Once they are voted out it will be too late.
"As the SNP administration delivers good government in the devolved areas, so we will build the case for Scotland to be governed equally well in all areas."
That statement from Nicola Sturgeon says it it. You can just see the next election campaign, and I am including Westminster as well as Holyrood, this what we have achieved so far, but this is what we could have achieved if it was not for Westminster interference. The only vote to move Scotland forward is independence
Soloman Stirling.
Why would the SNP have to disband? Do you think that once we get rid of all the self seeking numpties who have dragged Scotland down, we should suddenly let them back into power so they can start to run Scotland down again?
New Labour is finished for good in Scotland, thanks to Broon, Browne, Cairns and co. The only way for Labour to save themselves is for a Scottish Labour party to break away before they are thrown out of office, and prove that they can provide coherent worthwhile opposition to a democratically elected government. Once they are voted out it will be too late.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 10:34am Thu 10 Apr 08
Malkster Malky[quote]A very succesful poll for the SNP but until they get to about 55% I don't think they will push for a referendum.[/quote] And next month you'll have that at 65%, the month after 75%, and logically next year, at 150%.
Malkster Malky
A very succesful poll for the SNP but until they get to about 55% I don't think they will push for a referendum.
And next month you'll have that at 65%, the month after 75%, and logically next year, at 150%.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 10:34am Thu 10 Apr 08
I'm not surprised by this.
The SNP government puts the interests of Scots first.
The SNP government actually listen to Scots.
The SNP government actually seek to turn Scottish aspirations into reality.
This SNP government has shown itself to be competent, and gets the job done.
The Unionist notion that Scots are too stupid, too poor, too feart and that Scotland is to small has been turned on it's head by this SNP government.
It is the Scottish Unionists that are too stupid, poor, feart and now diminished.
This increase in support for independence is a hammer blow to Unionists and the Unionist media, who for the last 18 months have conducted a concerted dirty tricks campaign against the SNP. That has failed miserably.
Now, lets have that referendum on independence.
I'm not surprised by this.
The SNP government puts the interests of Scots first.
The SNP government actually listen to Scots.
The SNP government actually seek to turn Scottish aspirations into reality.
This SNP government has shown itself to be competent, and gets the job done.
The Unionist notion that Scots are too stupid, too poor, too feart and that Scotland is to small has been turned on it's head by this SNP government.
It is the Scottish Unionists that are too stupid, poor, feart and now diminished.
This increase in support for independence is a hammer blow to Unionists and the Unionist media, who for the last 18 months have conducted a concerted dirty tricks campaign against the SNP. That has failed miserably.
Now, lets have that referendum on independence.
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 10:37am Thu 10 Apr 08
Brown & co should start looking out for the people of England, Wales And N/Ireland, he and his Scottish mafia are paying too much notice to helping the peolpe of Scotland and meanwhile the world is falling in around the rest of the population who I'm sure would like to see more input from their PM who seems to be giving Scotland ALL his attention, as for Mr Browne aka Dennis the menace (he looks a bit like him) he should be dealing with more important matters in his second job or is it his first job, anyway rather than committing all his valuable time to Scotland he should be looking at damage limitation elsewhere.
Brown & co should start looking out for the people of England, Wales And N/Ireland, he and his Scottish mafia are paying too much notice to helping the peolpe of Scotland and meanwhile the world is falling in around the rest of the population who I'm sure would like to see more input from their PM who seems to be giving Scotland ALL his attention, as for Mr Browne aka Dennis the menace (he looks a bit like him) he should be dealing with more important matters in his second job or is it his first job, anyway rather than committing all his valuable time to Scotland he should be looking at damage limitation elsewhere.
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 10:38am Thu 10 Apr 08
Voice of Reason.
I agree with you sentiment, but John Swinney has to move on with his LIT. At the moment that seems impossible, but it would be nice if he could just press on against all the odds and without the help of Westminster. He would be even more of a hero for it. I hope he has some rabbits in the hat!
Voice of Reason.
I agree with you sentiment, but John Swinney has to move on with his LIT. At the moment that seems impossible, but it would be nice if he could just press on against all the odds and without the help of Westminster. He would be even more of a hero for it. I hope he has some rabbits in the hat!
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 10:42am Thu 10 Apr 08
John Leven.
I thought that after Independence that the SNP as it stands will be finished, only because their job to seek independence for Scotland will be over, and therefore new parties will have to stand up and be counted. Perhaps I'm wrong.
John Leven.
I thought that after Independence that the SNP as it stands will be finished, only because their job to seek independence for Scotland will be over, and therefore new parties will have to stand up and be counted. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Posted by: Mike SE, Stockholm on 10:45am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]The Voice of Reason[/bold] wrote:
[italic]Jwil writes: - It may also make the Treasury have a rethink about their anti-Scottish stance[/italic] .
I hope not. In the interests of this wonderful auld Scotia - long live Catch 22: there's nothing more damaging to the Union than the London Scots portraying themselves in the tabloids as putting British interests first and Scottish ones in the low key meltwaters to protect their wallets and egos from the wrath of the Great British voter.
It's better than beautiful.
VoR[/quote] I agree totally. They can't be seen to be pandering to Scotland, but at the same time they have to pander.
It can be clearly seen in the negativity to the Local Income Tax - trying to withhold fund related to those with low incomes, and now suggestions that Holyrood maynot set the form of local finance. The UK government could have made it an non-issue, but thats not what they are about.
The easiest answer is that if Scotland was fiscally (or fully) then where funds are to be shifted about is a matter for the finance minister. Recent events have just showed the flaws in the current "Classic English" compromise arrangement - it has major flaws.
The Voice of Reason wrote:
Jwil writes: - It may also make the Treasury have a rethink about their anti-Scottish stance .
I hope not. In the interests of this wonderful auld Scotia - long live Catch 22: there's nothing more damaging to the Union than the London Scots portraying themselves in the tabloids as putting British interests first and Scottish ones in the low key meltwaters to protect their wallets and egos from the wrath of the Great British voter.
It's better than beautiful.
VoR
I agree totally. They can't be seen to be pandering to Scotland, but at the same time they have to pander.
It can be clearly seen in the negativity to the Local Income Tax - trying to withhold fund related to those with low incomes, and now suggestions that Holyrood maynot set the form of local finance. The UK government could have made it an non-issue, but thats not what they are about.
The easiest answer is that if Scotland was fiscally (or fully) then where funds are to be shifted about is a matter for the finance minister. Recent events have just showed the flaws in the current "Classic English" compromise arrangement - it has major flaws.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:51am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
Support for the Union will be tied to how well the SNP can govern. Knowing that, Labour will do all it can to derail it, by harrassment, by undemocractic means, by mendacity. But, and it's critical ... The numbers in support of independence will get boosted by how much the voter judges the opposition unneccesarily confrontational and undemocratic in its attacks on the government of Scotland. [/quote] Every nationalist should print this comment and keep it in front of them at all times. It is the only antidote to contrived, concerted attacks such as the local councils story today.
Don't campaign on opinion polls. Campaign on who puts Scotland's interest to the forefront.
Los Angeles wrote:
Support for the Union will be tied to how well the SNP can govern. Knowing that, Labour will do all it can to derail it, by harrassment, by undemocractic means, by mendacity. But, and it's critical ... The numbers in support of independence will get boosted by how much the voter judges the opposition unneccesarily confrontational and undemocratic in its attacks on the government of Scotland.
Every nationalist should print this comment and keep it in front of them at all times. It is the only antidote to contrived, concerted attacks such as the local councils story today.
Don't campaign on opinion polls. Campaign on who puts Scotland's interest to the forefront.
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 10:52am Thu 10 Apr 08
Soloman, the SNP policy is to continue as a party post independence, and to stand for election on the basis of their record.
It may be that the diversity of opinion within the party will eventually lead to splits, or that the party will be seen as irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland, but I wouldn't expect either of these events to happen immediately, if at all.
Soloman, the SNP policy is to continue as a party post independence, and to stand for election on the basis of their record.
It may be that the diversity of opinion within the party will eventually lead to splits, or that the party will be seen as irrelevant in the context of an independent Scotland, but I wouldn't expect either of these events to happen immediately, if at all.
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 10:52am Thu 10 Apr 08
Just another opinion poll of fickle voters - take it with a pinch of salt. At least the usual liebour trolls will shut up (for a while) with their selected figures and claims that nobody wants independence.
A real significant, histroric event will be when the SNP membership overtakes Scottish Labour. I'm not sure what the present figures are, but a few months ago, the SNP membership was 11,000 (mostly under 40 years old) and rising steadily whilst the Scottish Labour membership was about 17,000 (mostly over 50 years old) and falling fast. The way things are going It's only a matter of time before the SNP become the largest party in Scotland (in every way)!
I would hope that this milestone is covered appropriately by the Scottish media, but I doubt it will be. Like the 300th aniversary of the beloved union, it will be hardly mentioned. Future historians may see it differently, however.
Just another opinion poll of fickle voters - take it with a pinch of salt. At least the usual liebour trolls will shut up (for a while) with their selected figures and claims that nobody wants independence.
A real significant, histroric event will be when the SNP membership overtakes Scottish Labour. I'm not sure what the present figures are, but a few months ago, the SNP membership was 11,000 (mostly under 40 years old) and rising steadily whilst the Scottish Labour membership was about 17,000 (mostly over 50 years old) and falling fast. The way things are going It's only a matter of time before the SNP become the largest party in Scotland (in every way)!
I would hope that this milestone is covered appropriately by the Scottish media, but I doubt it will be. Like the 300th aniversary of the beloved union, it will be hardly mentioned. Future historians may see it differently, however.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 10:52am Thu 10 Apr 08
The next step is to develop the discussion on independence to emphasise what aspects of Scotland's interests should and will remain a patnership with England and Wales.
Opponents attempting to cheapen Scotland's sovereignty by calling nationalists "separatists" need to be shown as idiotic. (Currently, that covers most of the Scottish Labour party.)
The next step is to develop the discussion on independence to emphasise what aspects of Scotland's interests should and will remain a patnership with England and Wales.
Opponents attempting to cheapen Scotland's sovereignty by calling nationalists "separatists" need to be shown as idiotic. (Currently, that covers most of the Scottish Labour party.)
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 10:54am Thu 10 Apr 08
Stop Labour causing strikes!
Here is the link to a petition. Pass this on to everyone you know and ask them to sign!
http://tinyurl.com/5
bt766
Stop Labour causing strikes!
Here is the link to a petition. Pass this on to everyone you know and ask them to sign!
http://tinyurl.com/5
bt766
Posted by: Solymar, Alicante on 10:59am Thu 10 Apr 08
The population of Iceland is some 300,000 souls; about the size of Edinburgh.
According to 'El Pais' at the week-end, the tiny population is healthy and prosperous.
Perhaps Edinburgh should be Independent?
The population of Iceland is some 300,000 souls; about the size of Edinburgh.
According to 'El Pais' at the week-end, the tiny population is healthy and prosperous.
Perhaps Edinburgh should be Independent?
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 11:02am Thu 10 Apr 08
Morag : Sounds good ! Thanks for that.
Morag : Sounds good ! Thanks for that.
Posted by: talorthane, Glasgow on 11:03am Thu 10 Apr 08
Luigi
SNP membership reached over 14,000 just last week.
I don't know what the most recent figure is for Labour, but I'm sure it's falling.
Luigi
SNP membership reached over 14,000 just last week.
I don't know what the most recent figure is for Labour, but I'm sure it's falling.
Posted by: Malkster, Scotland on 11:06am Thu 10 Apr 08
14000 seperatists dragging 5 million people with them. celtic and rangers have 3 times as many season ticket holders.
14000 seperatists dragging 5 million people with them. celtic and rangers have 3 times as many season ticket holders.
Posted by: Jim, Glasgow on 11:07am Thu 10 Apr 08
So long as Labour (old, new or whatever) and their dwindling Trades Union support continue with a policy of negative politics then the growth in numbers supporting nationalism will continue.
I find it incredible that anyone can continue to support a Labour party that expends all its efforts trying to tell the general public about SNP policy. The SNP does not need a publicity budget the labour spin machine does it all for them. Although it seems that labour are finding it more and more difficult to put anyone forward for interview that can handle joined up speaking.
We have no idea what Labour policy is all we are told by labour is SNP policy and why they think it won't work, whatever that opinion is based on.
Support for independence will unfortunately continue to grow so long as the good ship labour remains rudderless, powerless and clueless. If they would only listen rather than always thinking they know better then we might get needed, credible opposition. If labour continue as they are they are unelectable in Scotland and independence will result. If Scotland becomes independent it will not be as a result of the good arguments put forward by the SNP it will be as a result of the Labour leadership being incapable of gaining the respect of the electorate because of their constant negativity and keeping their heads buried in the sand in glorious isolation within fortress labour.
So long as Labour (old, new or whatever) and their dwindling Trades Union support continue with a policy of negative politics then the growth in numbers supporting nationalism will continue.
I find it incredible that anyone can continue to support a Labour party that expends all its efforts trying to tell the general public about SNP policy. The SNP does not need a publicity budget the labour spin machine does it all for them. Although it seems that labour are finding it more and more difficult to put anyone forward for interview that can handle joined up speaking.
We have no idea what Labour policy is all we are told by labour is SNP policy and why they think it won't work, whatever that opinion is based on.
Support for independence will unfortunately continue to grow so long as the good ship labour remains rudderless, powerless and clueless. If they would only listen rather than always thinking they know better then we might get needed, credible opposition. If labour continue as they are they are unelectable in Scotland and independence will result. If Scotland becomes independent it will not be as a result of the good arguments put forward by the SNP it will be as a result of the Labour leadership being incapable of gaining the respect of the electorate because of their constant negativity and keeping their heads buried in the sand in glorious isolation within fortress labour.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:08am Thu 10 Apr 08
Malkster the Joker[quote]14000 [bold]seperatists[/bold] dragging 5 million people with them[/quote]Using a word in print to demean is useless if you can't spell it, you balloon.
Malkster the Joker
14000 seperatists dragging 5 million people with them
Using a word in print to demean is useless if you can't spell it, you balloon.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 11:13am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]soloman[/bold] wrote:
John Leven. I thought that after Independence that the SNP as it stands will be finished, only because their job to seek independence for Scotland will be over, and therefore new parties will have to stand up and be counted. Perhaps I'm wrong.[/quote] This had been a suggestion put forward by SNP members in the 60s and it has hung around. As I recall it was an attempt to get members of other parties with seemingly unbreakable loyalties, but a very strong affection for Scotland as a nation, to buy into independence.
It failed because:
1. It's like saying to a girl, "Marry me, but you can still do all the things you do now, like have boyfriends, spending lots on make-up, etc."
2. It presumed that old party loyalties are unbreakable.
3. It gave the (false) impression that the SNP had no policies and were a one-issue party.
All of that has changed. What hasn't happened (yet) is the formation of a Scottish-based right wing party (opportunity for both Labour and Tories there) and a Scottish-based left-wing party. Tagging the word "Scottish" onto a London-based party does not qualify.
Annabel Goldie is an extremely sincere and moderately intelligent woman but she is the Greyfriars Bobby of Scottish politics, slumped on the grave of the Conservative & Unionist Party wimpering, "[italic]Yer no deid, yer no deid, ah cannae believe it.[/italic] "
The left wing in Scotland is as suceptible to the cult of personality as anywhere in the left-wing world so the Sillars and Sheridans are hailed when they have their brief moments of blazing passion but burn out and become smouldering embers.
Among the membership of the three Unionist parties in Holyrood are people who believe in Scottish independence. When they view the rise of the SNP as an opportunity rather than a problem, then they will have the courage to form truly Scottish parties. What are they waiting for?
P.S. Greyfriars Bobby's master never did rise from the grave - there is a lesson there for Ms Goldie (and Gazza Broon).
soloman wrote:
John Leven. I thought that after Independence that the SNP as it stands will be finished, only because their job to seek independence for Scotland will be over, and therefore new parties will have to stand up and be counted. Perhaps I'm wrong.
This had been a suggestion put forward by SNP members in the 60s and it has hung around. As I recall it was an attempt to get members of other parties with seemingly unbreakable loyalties, but a very strong affection for Scotland as a nation, to buy into independence.
It failed because:
1. It's like saying to a girl, "Marry me, but you can still do all the things you do now, like have boyfriends, spending lots on make-up, etc."
2. It presumed that old party loyalties are unbreakable.
3. It gave the (false) impression that the SNP had no policies and were a one-issue party.
All of that has changed. What hasn't happened (yet) is the formation of a Scottish-based right wing party (opportunity for both Labour and Tories there) and a Scottish-based left-wing party. Tagging the word "Scottish" onto a London-based party does not qualify.
Annabel Goldie is an extremely sincere and moderately intelligent woman but she is the Greyfriars Bobby of Scottish politics, slumped on the grave of the Conservative & Unionist Party wimpering, "
Yer no deid, yer no deid, ah cannae believe it. "
The left wing in Scotland is as suceptible to the cult of personality as anywhere in the left-wing world so the Sillars and Sheridans are hailed when they have their brief moments of blazing passion but burn out and become smouldering embers.
Among the membership of the three Unionist parties in Holyrood are people who believe in Scottish independence. When they view the rise of the SNP as an opportunity rather than a problem, then they will have the courage to form truly Scottish parties. What are they waiting for?
P.S. Greyfriars Bobby's master never did rise from the grave - there is a lesson there for Ms Goldie (and Gazza Broon).
Posted by: Grassy Knollington on 11:22am Thu 10 Apr 08
"Annabel Goldie is an extremely sincere and moderately intelligent woman but she is the Greyfriars Bobby of Scottish politics, slumped on the grave of the Conservative & Unionist Party wimpering, "Yer no deid, yer no deid, ah cannae believe it. "
Lol, well said Duns
"Annabel Goldie is an extremely sincere and moderately intelligent woman but she is the Greyfriars Bobby of Scottish politics, slumped on the grave of the Conservative & Unionist Party wimpering, "Yer no deid, yer no deid, ah cannae believe it. "
Lol, well said Duns
Posted by: talorthane on 11:25am Thu 10 Apr 08
Jim
[quote]"If Scotland becomes independent it will not be as a result of the good arguments put forward by the SNP it will be as a result of the Labour leadership being incapable of gaining the respect of the electorate because of their constant negativity and keeping their heads buried in the sand in glorious isolation within fortress labour."[/quote]
I think the two are one and the same.
The reason that Labour (as the main opposition) cannot mount any substantial attack is preceisely because the SNP have won the arguments over independence.
Independence is no longer viewed by the public as a pipe dream that would have catastrophic consequences for the country. Where the onus was on the SNP alone had their proposals scrutinised.
We are now moving to a position where independence is viewed as a viable option that may well offer a great deal of benefits to the country, but where the uncertainties have to be explored before some people will support it. Others support it already.
The SNP still have work to do, and by engaging people in that process, I think they will achieve it.
However, the cat is now out of the bag.
The arguments are no longer only about whether Scotland should be independent. They are now also about the why should Scotland remain in the union.
The shoe is well and truly on the other foot. The scrutiny of proposals now fall onto the unionist parties as well. And the indications are that they do not have the answers. The constant negativity from Labour (and other unionists) is surely because there are few positives for them to put forward.
Jim
"If Scotland becomes independent it will not be as a result of the good arguments put forward by the SNP it will be as a result of the Labour leadership being incapable of gaining the respect of the electorate because of their constant negativity and keeping their heads buried in the sand in glorious isolation within fortress labour."
I think the two are one and the same.
The reason that Labour (as the main opposition) cannot mount any substantial attack is preceisely because the SNP have won the arguments over independence.
Independence is no longer viewed by the public as a pipe dream that would have catastrophic consequences for the country. Where the onus was on the SNP alone had their proposals scrutinised.
We are now moving to a position where independence is viewed as a viable option that may well offer a great deal of benefits to the country, but where the uncertainties have to be explored before some people will support it. Others support it already.
The SNP still have work to do, and by engaging people in that process, I think they will achieve it.
However, the cat is now out of the bag.
The arguments are no longer only about whether Scotland should be independent. They are now also about the why should Scotland remain in the union.
The shoe is well and truly on the other foot. The scrutiny of proposals now fall onto the unionist parties as well. And the indications are that they do not have the answers. The constant negativity from Labour (and other unionists) is surely because there are few positives for them to put forward.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 11:27am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]talorthane[/bold] wrote:
Luigi SNP membership reached over 14,000 just last week. I don't know what the most recent figure is for Labour, but I'm sure it's falling.[/quote] [bold]Don't rely on membership figures.[/bold]
Back in the 60s the SNP proclaimed itself as the fastest-growing political party in the UK. Membership had doubled every year for 4 or 5 years. If that process had continued for another 7 or 8 years, membership would have exceeded the population of Scotland! we were unstoppable - aye right.
[bold]Don't rely on opinion polls.[/bold]
Like stocks and shares and lifts and stairs, they can go down as well as up.
[bold]Don't rely on posters (paper and bloggers)[/bold]
If having the greatest number of posters mattered, Donald Dewar would never have won the Garscadden by-election. I know, I was there. Look how SNP members dominate these boards. That does not accurately reflect the political mix of the paper's readership.
[bold]Rely on solid political achievement[/bold]
That is what the SNP government is delivering. Then the next step - (LA @ 1052 am)
[quote]The next step is to develop the discussion on independence to emphasise what aspects of Scotland's interests should and will remain a patnership with England and Wales.
Opponents attempting to cheapen Scotland's sovereignty by calling nationalists "separatists" need to be shown as idiotic. (Currently, that covers most of the Scottish Labour party.)[/quote]
talorthane wrote:
Luigi SNP membership reached over 14,000 just last week. I don't know what the most recent figure is for Labour, but I'm sure it's falling.
Don't rely on membership figures.
Back in the 60s the SNP proclaimed itself as the fastest-growing political party in the UK. Membership had doubled every year for 4 or 5 years. If that process had continued for another 7 or 8 years, membership would have exceeded the population of Scotland! we were unstoppable - aye right.
Don't rely on opinion polls.
Like stocks and shares and lifts and stairs, they can go down as well as up.
Don't rely on posters (paper and bloggers)
If having the greatest number of posters mattered, Donald Dewar would never have won the Garscadden by-election. I know, I was there. Look how SNP members dominate these boards. That does not accurately reflect the political mix of the paper's readership.
Rely on solid political achievement
That is what the SNP government is delivering. Then the next step - (LA @ 1052 am)
The next step is to develop the discussion on independence to emphasise what aspects of Scotland's interests should and will remain a patnership with England and Wales.
Opponents attempting to cheapen Scotland's sovereignty by calling nationalists "separatists" need to be shown as idiotic. (Currently, that covers most of the Scottish Labour party.)
Posted by: Scamp on 11:30am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Malkster[/bold] wrote:
A very succesful poll for the SNP but until they get to about 55% I don't think they will push for a referendum. It is a massive decision and undoubtedly some people will vote no in private. [/quote]
I also think a lot more people will vote "yes" in private.
Malkster wrote:
A very succesful poll for the SNP but until they get to about 55% I don't think they will push for a referendum. It is a massive decision and undoubtedly some people will vote no in private.
I also think a lot more people will vote "yes" in private.
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 11:35am Thu 10 Apr 08
Luigi,
I was about to say that SNP membership has past 14,000 in the last weeks, but it has also been stated that 41,000 individuals have donated to the cause. (none of them from Jersey)
Also from todays Guardian blab mwps are now starting to put forward names to stand against brown.
The've move on from just talking about doing it
It seems they are sick of browns lack of direction, of having to read his 14 page reports on this that and the other, none of which draws a conclusion
Luigi,
I was about to say that SNP membership has past 14,000 in the last weeks, but it has also been stated that 41,000 individuals have donated to the cause. (none of them from Jersey)
Also from todays Guardian blab mwps are now starting to put forward names to stand against brown.
The've move on from just talking about doing it
It seems they are sick of browns lack of direction, of having to read his 14 page reports on this that and the other, none of which draws a conclusion
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 11:46am Thu 10 Apr 08
Duns Scotus @ 11;27,
Good and timely advice, re Garscadden I was there too
Duns Scotus @ 11;27,
Good and timely advice, re Garscadden I was there too
Posted by: Jim, Glasgow on 11:47am Thu 10 Apr 08
talorthane on 11:25am today
You make a number of good and valid points.
I suppose my disappointment is that how can the labour party, that was once a great institution fighting for the needs and the basic human rights of a great industrial nation (Scotland), be usurped by a leadership that has become incapable of listening and so full of their own ego's to the point where they have made themselves unelectable.
I am not in favor of independence or of breaking up the union but I can never again vote labour so long as the current egos lead and speak for the party.
talorthane on 11:25am today
You make a number of good and valid points.
I suppose my disappointment is that how can the labour party, that was once a great institution fighting for the needs and the basic human rights of a great industrial nation (Scotland), be usurped by a leadership that has become incapable of listening and so full of their own ego's to the point where they have made themselves unelectable.
I am not in favor of independence or of breaking up the union but I can never again vote labour so long as the current egos lead and speak for the party.
Posted by: daveymac, web on 11:54am Thu 10 Apr 08
The bbc website > Scotland > politics section has opened up questions for an interview With Alex as per Wendy on their site.
So fire away your questions!
The bbc website > Scotland > politics section has opened up questions for an interview With Alex as per Wendy on their site.
So fire away your questions!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:55am Thu 10 Apr 08
Pehman[quote] (none of them from Jersey)[/quote] And who now will want to visit that blighted land?
Pehman
(none of them from Jersey)
And who now will want to visit that blighted land?
Posted by: The Voice of Reason, Blairgowrie on 11:57am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Malkster[/bold] wrote:
14000 seperatists dragging 5 million people with them. celtic and rangers have 3 times as many season ticket holders.[/quote] "dragging"? My huge pumpkin ****. It's called democracy Malkster, if the people want it who the 'ell are you to slag them off? In the same way, if they don't, then who am I to criticise? All you and I can do is to express an opinion, but be careful in dumbplaying down your people's ability to choose as they see fit. You can never win that debate.
The solution to it all is called A Referendum.
Anything else is the politics of China/Zim/N Lanarkshire.
VoR
Malkster wrote:
14000 seperatists dragging 5 million people with them. celtic and rangers have 3 times as many season ticket holders.
"dragging"? My huge pumpkin ****. It's called democracy Malkster, if the people want it who the 'ell are you to slag them off? In the same way, if they don't, then who am I to criticise? All you and I can do is to express an opinion, but be careful in dumbplaying down your people's ability to choose as they see fit. You can never win that debate.
The solution to it all is called A Referendum.
Anything else is the politics of China/Zim/N Lanarkshire.
VoR
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 11:57am Thu 10 Apr 08
The daily record has an on line vote, for or against the SNPs LIT
The daily record has an on line vote, for or against the SNPs LIT
Posted by: Exiled Aussie, Banff on 11:57am Thu 10 Apr 08
Then why dont the [bold]TARTAN TORIES[/bold] hold an immediate referendum and Little Fish can put her money where her usually wide open wide mouth is ?
Then why dont the
TARTAN TORIES hold an immediate referendum and Little Fish can put her money where her usually wide open wide mouth is ?
Posted by: Truscot, Over Here on 12:03pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Independence the only option for Scotland
Independence the only option for Scotland
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 12:03pm Thu 10 Apr 08
LA,
I've nothing against Jersey, I'm sure Jersey will back Scotland, Wales, N.I. in our "talks" with maggie
LA,
I've nothing against Jersey, I'm sure Jersey will back Scotland, Wales, N.I. in our "talks" with maggie
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 12:13pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Exiled,
The SNP promised a referendum in 2010.
However if you wish for an earlier vote the you should write, e-mail wendy alexander, A goldie, N stephens telling them to get on with it
Although I should point out that at the recent slab conference red wendy, when asked on air with bbc's b taylor, why she was against a
referendum, replied "because I don't want Independence"
Exiled,
The SNP promised a referendum in 2010.
However if you wish for an earlier vote the you should write, e-mail wendy alexander, A goldie, N stephens telling them to get on with it
Although I should point out that at the recent slab conference red wendy, when asked on air with bbc's b taylor, why she was against a
referendum, replied "because I don't want Independence"
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:16pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Exiled Brain[quote]Then why dont[/quote] you stop acting like street thug?
Exiled Brain
Then why dont
you stop acting like street thug?
Posted by: TheGlaswegian, Edinburgh on 12:25pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Exiled Aussie, when are you actually going to try to understand what is happening in Scotland? IT is obvious that you live in cloud cuckoo land in an era long gone...
1) A referendum on independence: This can't happen right now as it is not up to the SNP. It is up to the Scottish Parliament and the unionist parties have declared that will never agree to it. Plus, it is not in the SNPs interest to have one so early on in their reign.
2) Tartan Tories: you know as well as I do that the SNP are more socialist than nulabour.
Your posts are drivel.
Exiled Aussie, when are you actually going to try to understand what is happening in Scotland? IT is obvious that you live in cloud cuckoo land in an era long gone...
1) A referendum on independence: This can't happen right now as it is not up to the SNP. It is up to the Scottish Parliament and the unionist parties have declared that will never agree to it. Plus, it is not in the SNPs interest to have one so early on in their reign.
2) Tartan Tories: you know as well as I do that the SNP are more socialist than nulabour.
Your posts are drivel.
Posted by: snecked, Argyll on 12:30pm Thu 10 Apr 08
It is worth noting that on the day that the "Scottish " Daily Mail headlines this poll the BBC Online Scotland page allows access only to the English edition of the Mail with no mention of this poll whatsover. It carries the Scottish edition of the Dailly Express and all the other Scottish papers.Check it out - then ask Mark Coyle at BBC Scotland what's going on. mark.coyle@bbc.co.uk
It is worth noting that on the day that the "Scottish " Daily Mail headlines this poll the BBC Online Scotland page allows access only to the English edition of the Mail with no mention of this poll whatsover. It carries the Scottish edition of the Dailly Express and all the other Scottish papers.Check it out - then ask Mark Coyle at BBC Scotland what's going on. mark.coyle@bbc.co.uk
Posted by: DJ, Glasgow on 12:31pm Thu 10 Apr 08
"Independence the only option for Scotland"
How can there be an option with no alternative outcome?
Your not pals with Mugabe are you? Sounds like his electoral strategy.
"Independence the only option for Scotland"
How can there be an option with no alternative outcome?
Your not pals with Mugabe are you? Sounds like his electoral strategy.
Posted by: bob mckay, glasgow on 12:32pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Some especially good debate on this thread today especially from LA........but natty people......bottom line..............3 out of 5 dont want independance DESPITE the incredibly positive start to the SNP government. I Agree with scamp that some people will say "yes" as to say "no" to a pollster is uncool and labels you a "unionist" a label many are not comfortable with. So calm the celebrations; you are a long way from a majority vote and might never get there. Still its fun seeing more hot air on the issue daily than is in all the bagpipes in the country.
Some especially good debate on this thread today especially from LA........but natty people......bottom line..............3 out of 5 dont want independance DESPITE the incredibly positive start to the SNP government. I Agree with scamp that some people will say "yes" as to say "no" to a pollster is uncool and labels you a "unionist" a label many are not comfortable with. So calm the celebrations; you are a long way from a majority vote and might never get there. Still its fun seeing more hot air on the issue daily than is in all the bagpipes in the country.
Posted by: Pedro, Kilmarnock on 12:43pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]pehman[/bold] wrote:
The daily record has an on line vote, for or against the SNPs LIT[/quote] What a wonderful sample of Scottish opinon it is too!
I have just recorded a vote and changed the percentage in favour by over 5%. No doubt the result will be front-page headline in tomorrow's edition.
pehman wrote:
The daily record has an on line vote, for or against the SNPs LIT
What a wonderful sample of Scottish opinon it is too!
I have just recorded a vote and changed the percentage in favour by over 5%. No doubt the result will be front-page headline in tomorrow's edition.
Posted by: Ann Allan, Dundee on 12:46pm Thu 10 Apr 08
I cannot believe that people think the SNP will disband when we get our Independences, after all the hard work that has been done so far they don't live on this plant or are Unionist. It's about time London stop bulling the Scottish Government and let then Govern Scotland as it should be caring for the people of Scotland. Watch this space as in spite of them we will be free sooner rather than later for the sake of our Nation and those who line in it.
I cannot believe that people think the SNP will disband when we get our Independences, after all the hard work that has been done so far they don't live on this plant or are Unionist. It's about time London stop bulling the Scottish Government and let then Govern Scotland as it should be caring for the people of Scotland. Watch this space as in spite of them we will be free sooner rather than later for the sake of our Nation and those who line in it.
Posted by: charlesn on 1:03pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Can someone please give me the URL for the SCOTTISH Daily Mail? I want to read the poll details there.
"The Daily Mail" site tries to keep interest centred on the English edition. And in the same vein The Herald moderator seems to be determined to delete any post referring to other newspaper sites ...
Can someone please give me the URL for the SCOTTISH Daily Mail? I want to read the poll details there.
"The Daily Mail" site tries to keep interest centred on the English edition. And in the same vein The Herald moderator seems to be determined to delete any post referring to other newspaper sites ...
Posted by: John, Glasgow on 1:03pm Thu 10 Apr 08
I have posted comments on this issue before.
My business trades in 50 countries and I am trying to do business in another 108 countries. This allows me to travel all around the world including some very remote places. I am absolutly amazed to find SCOTS working everywhere I go including these remote places in Siberia and Africa etc.
[bold]I honestly belive that our people can indeed become a CELTIC tiger economy if the SNP instill confidence back into our people.[/bold]
The English government have done nothing for me, I got up off my backside and went for it, [bold]so please fellow scots, leave Englands breasts and propa[bold]bold[/bold] ganda and become a proud and independent nation again.[/bold]
I have posted comments on this issue before.
My business trades in 50 countries and I am trying to do business in another 108 countries. This allows me to travel all around the world including some very remote places. I am absolutly amazed to find SCOTS working everywhere I go including these remote places in Siberia and Africa etc.
I honestly belive that our people can indeed become a CELTIC tiger economy if the SNP instill confidence back into our people.
The English government have done nothing for me, I got up off my backside and went for it,
so please fellow scots, leave Englands breasts and propa ganda and become a proud and independent nation again. Posted by: Oscar on 1:07pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Interesting poll here folks, make it so....
http://tinyurl.com/4
nxtlj
Interesting poll here folks, make it so....
http://tinyurl.com/4
nxtlj
Posted by: subrosa on 1:07pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[italic]Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 10:42am today[/italic]
Soloman, the SNP membership is a broad church. The party name will continue for some time but the membership will break up into their relative 'natural' homes. Only common sense really.
Mind you I can see new parties coming to the fore as no SNP member would want to jump ship and join a rehash of the present unionist ones.
Posted by: soloman, Stirling on 10:42am today
Soloman, the SNP membership is a broad church. The party name will continue for some time but the membership will break up into their relative 'natural' homes. Only common sense really.
Mind you I can see new parties coming to the fore as no SNP member would want to jump ship and join a rehash of the present unionist ones.
Posted by: arg1272, Glasgow on 1:13pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Macuistean[/bold] wrote:
Comments please from AM2, Des Browne, Gordon (Maggie) Brown, Darling, Alexander and all the other great britons.[/quote] I'll give you a comment from this Great Briton, you supporters of the SNP are leading Scotland into a National Socialist nightmare with only horror at the end of it.
Macuistean wrote:
Comments please from AM2, Des Browne, Gordon (Maggie) Brown, Darling, Alexander and all the other great britons.
I'll give you a comment from this Great Briton, you supporters of the SNP are leading Scotland into a National Socialist nightmare with only horror at the end of it.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 1:17pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Exiled Drongo, if you can't contribute anything to the debates on these threads, then don't bother. Incidentally, just what exactly were you exiled for? It wasn't anything illegal to do with sheep, was it?
With regard to your childish repetition of the phrase Tartan Tories applied to the SNP - the real Tartan Tories, namely your beloved Labour lot, don't want a referendum, nor do their Tartan Tory pals behind Annabel and Stephen!
Exiled Drongo, if you can't contribute anything to the debates on these threads, then don't bother. Incidentally, just what exactly were you exiled for? It wasn't anything illegal to do with sheep, was it?
With regard to your childish repetition of the phrase Tartan Tories applied to the SNP - the real Tartan Tories, namely your beloved Labour lot, don't want a referendum, nor do their Tartan Tory pals behind Annabel and Stephen!
Posted by: Malkster, Scotland on 1:17pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote]Malkster wrote:
14000 seperatists dragging 5 million people with them. celtic and rangers have 3 times as many season ticket holders.
"dragging"? My huge pumpkin ****. It's called democracy Malkster, if the people want it who the 'ell are you to slag them off? In the same way, if they don't, then who am I to criticise? All you and I can do is to express an opinion, but be careful in dumbplaying down your people's ability to choose as they see fit. You can never win that debate.
The solution to it all is called A Referendum.
Anything else is the politics of China/Zim/N Lanarkshire
I was making a bit of a joke but no it is called democracy, get enough votes in parliament and you can have as many referendums as you want. DEMOCRACY.
Malkster wrote:
14000 seperatists dragging 5 million people with them. celtic and rangers have 3 times as many season ticket holders.
"dragging"? My huge pumpkin ****. It's called democracy Malkster, if the people want it who the 'ell are you to slag them off? In the same way, if they don't, then who am I to criticise? All you and I can do is to express an opinion, but be careful in dumbplaying down your people's ability to choose as they see fit. You can never win that debate.
The solution to it all is called A Referendum.
Anything else is the politics of China/Zim/N Lanarkshire
I was making a bit of a joke but no it is called democracy, get enough votes in parliament and you can have as many referendums as you want. DEMOCRACY.
Posted by: charlesn on 1:21pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote]I'll give you a comment from this Great Briton, you supporters of the SNP are leading Scotland into a National Socialist nightmare with only horror at the end of it.[/quote]
What rubbish!
Is Denmark National Socialist? Is The Netherlands National Socialist? Is Norway National Socialist? Ditto Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Ireland et al.
No, they're all independent countries.
I'll give you a comment from this Great Briton, you supporters of the SNP are leading Scotland into a National Socialist nightmare with only horror at the end of it.
What rubbish!
Is Denmark National Socialist? Is The Netherlands National Socialist? Is Norway National Socialist? Ditto Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Ireland et al.
No, they're all independent countries.
Posted by: sam, greenock on 1:25pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Duns Scotus[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]talorthane[/bold] wrote: Luigi SNP membership reached over 14,000 just last week. I don't know what the most recent figure is for Labour, but I'm sure it's falling.[/quote] [bold]Don't rely on membership figures.[/bold] Back in the 60s the SNP proclaimed itself as the fastest-growing political party in the UK. Membership had doubled every year for 4 or 5 years. If that process had continued for another 7 or 8 years, membership would have exceeded the population of Scotland! we were unstoppable - aye right. [bold]Don't rely on opinion polls.[/bold] Like stocks and shares and lifts and stairs, they can go down as well as up. [bold]Don't rely on posters (paper and bloggers)[/bold] If having the greatest number of posters mattered, Donald Dewar would never have won the Garscadden by-election. I know, I was there. Look how SNP members dominate these boards. That does not accurately reflect the political mix of the paper's readership. [bold]Rely on solid political achievement[/bold] That is what the SNP government is delivering. Then the next step - (LA @ 1052 am) [quote]The next step is to develop the discussion on independence to emphasise what aspects of Scotland's interests should and will remain a patnership with England and Wales. Opponents attempting to cheapen Scotland's sovereignty by calling nationalists "separatists" need to be shown as idiotic. (Currently, that covers most of the Scottish Labour party.)[/quote] [/quote] [quote]Don't rely on opinion polls.
Like stocks and shares and lifts and stairs, they can go down as well as up.[/quote]
But pens, pencils, papers and envelopes will remain stationary
Duns Scotus wrote:
talorthane wrote: Luigi SNP membership reached over 14,000 just last week. I don't know what the most recent figure is for Labour, but I'm sure it's falling.
Don't rely on membership figures. Back in the 60s the SNP proclaimed itself as the fastest-growing political party in the UK. Membership had doubled every year for 4 or 5 years. If that process had continued for another 7 or 8 years, membership would have exceeded the population of Scotland! we were unstoppable - aye right. Don't rely on opinion polls. Like stocks and shares and lifts and stairs, they can go down as well as up. Don't rely on posters (paper and bloggers) If having the greatest number of posters mattered, Donald Dewar would never have won the Garscadden by-election. I know, I was there. Look how SNP members dominate these boards. That does not accurately reflect the political mix of the paper's readership. Rely on solid political achievement That is what the SNP government is delivering. Then the next step - (LA @ 1052 am) The next step is to develop the discussion on independence to emphasise what aspects of Scotland's interests should and will remain a patnership with England and Wales. Opponents attempting to cheapen Scotland's sovereignty by calling nationalists "separatists" need to be shown as idiotic. (Currently, that covers most of the Scottish Labour party.)
Don't rely on opinion polls.
Like stocks and shares and lifts and stairs, they can go down as well as up.
But pens, pencils, papers and envelopes will remain stationary
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:27pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Malkster Glaikit[quote]you supporters of the SNP are leading Scotland into a National Socialist nightmare with only horror at the end of it.[/quote] And you are determined to be the "horror at the end of it."
Malkster Glaikit
you supporters of the SNP are leading Scotland into a National Socialist nightmare with only horror at the end of it.
And you are determined to be the "horror at the end of it."
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh on 1:29pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Hopefully this will stop the unionists trumpetting their flawed statistic of 23% support for independence that they tried to use to justify excluding independence from their discussions of future political options for Scotland.
When an independence referendum is eventually held I believe the independence option will win simply because the case for normal powers is a lot more positive than the regular scaremongering that the unionists use against it.
Hopefully this will stop the unionists trumpetting their flawed statistic of 23% support for independence that they tried to use to justify excluding independence from their discussions of future political options for Scotland.
When an independence referendum is eventually held I believe the independence option will win simp
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