Scotland now ‘like US colonies in 1770s’
Alex Salmond went to the home of one of America's most revered founding fathers yesterday to invoke the spirit of revolution against rule from London.
The First Minister visited Monticello, where Thomas Jefferson lived, and delivered a speech at Virginia University, which compared Scotland's position now with that of the 13 American colonies in 1776.
"Where you chose independence, we have yet to follow," he said, adding "the moral and practical case is overwhelming".
The main thrust of this second of Mr Salmond's American trilogy of speeches, during his week-long visit to the US, was to make the case for an independence referendum.
He said some in the UK did not want to consider independence for Scotland: "And most extraordinary of all, there are politicians who consider that it is they, not the people, who should arbitrate and determine the nature of change."
Citing the example of Jefferson, the First Minister went on: "What I absolutely demand is that the decision is made with the clear direction of the people expressed in a referendum."
The case for more powers being transferred to Scotland was boosted yesterday by a poll showing English opinion is behind Scots deciding their own tax levels. Increasing numbers feel Scotland gets too large a share of UK public spending.
© All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without
permission is prohibited.
Posted by: Archie, Argyll on 9:45pm Tue 1 Apr 08
"The case for more powers being transferred to Scotland was boosted yesterday by a poll showing English opinion is behind Scots deciding their own tax levels. Increasing numbers feel Scotland gets too large a share of UK public spending."
It seems you can't print a story without this sort of add on.
Well it's actually the people of SCOTLAND who decide on this, is it not?
Programmed sycophantic ranters, are you not?
I'm sure you just can't help yourselves,
On second thought, , , ,
"The case for more powers being transferred to Scotland was boosted yesterday by a poll showing English opinion is behind Scots deciding their own tax levels. Increasing numbers feel Scotland gets too large a share of UK public spending."
It seems you can't print a story without this sort of add on.
Well it's actually the people of SCOTLAND who decide on this, is it not?
Programmed sycophantic ranters, are you not?
I'm sure you just can't help yourselves,
On second thought, , , ,
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:47pm Tue 1 Apr 08
[quote]The First Minister visited Monticello, where Thomas Jefferson lived, and delivered a speech at Virginia University, which compared Scotland's position now with that of the 13 American colonies in 1776.[/quote] Been there, done that.
Filled with pride to see the first books discussing the new republic and its theory written by the Founding Fathers, encased in glass, an with the inside page stating:
[bold]"Printed by Chambers and published in Edinburgh."[/bold]
So there.
The First Minister visited Monticello, where Thomas Jefferson lived, and delivered a speech at Virginia University, which compared Scotland's position now with that of the 13 American colonies in 1776.
Been there, done that.
Filled with pride to see the first books discussing the new republic and its theory written by the Founding Fathers, encased in glass, an with the inside page stating:
"Printed by Chambers and published in Edinburgh."
So there.
Posted by: Hamish McKropotkin, Bannockburn on 9:57pm Tue 1 Apr 08
Alex,
Since when has democracy meant that an unrepresentative minority (about a quarter according you) can insist on a referendum of their choice and at the time of their choosing?
Earth calling Alex, earth calling Alex...........fenni
e!
Alex,
Since when has democracy meant that an unrepresentative minority (about a quarter according you) can insist on a referendum of their choice and at the time of their choosing?
Earth calling Alex, earth calling Alex...........fenni
e!
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 10:07pm Tue 1 Apr 08
Hamish McCrap
How old are you ?
Hamish McCrap
How old are you ?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 10:17pm Tue 1 Apr 08
[bold]WARNING - TROLL ALERT - MORONIC SPECIES[/bold] [quote]Chairman Hamish McTumshie Crapology[/quote]
WARNING - TROLL ALERT - MORONIC SPECIES Chairman Hamish McTumshie Crapology
Posted by: Old Tam, Glasgow on 10:20pm Tue 1 Apr 08
Come on Douglas, wake up and smell the coffee.
Come on Douglas, wake up and smell the coffee.
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 10:50pm Tue 1 Apr 08
What would it take for us to have our equivalent of the Tea Party?
What would it take for us to have our equivalent of the Tea Party?
Posted by: Tam, Glasgow on 11:05pm Tue 1 Apr 08
You could have added........
Mr Salmond said:
"Tartan Day was inaugurated 10 years ago because the Senate recognised the influence of Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath on America's Declaration of Independence. However, the connecting theme is not just clarion calls for liberty and independence, but the recognition of the sovereignty of the people first suggested in European history in the Arbroath Declaration and taken to its logical conclusion by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence.
"Today I call on politicians on all sides of the debate to recognise the sovereignty of the people. This is the basis on which the United States first asserted its right to self-government. And it is the guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future - a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.
"When the people of Scotland consider their place in the world and debate our constitutional future, the proper means to exercise this sovereignty is through a referendum.
"Thomas Jefferson wrote that 'Every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will.'
"Scotland, sooner rather than later, is entitled to have the right to choose our constitutional future. That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future - a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.
"And it is the words of Thomas Jefferson that will inspire us - today and in the years ahead: "We are a people capable of self-government, and worthy of it."
You could have added........
Mr Salmond said:
"Tartan Day was inaugurated 10 years ago because the Senate recognised the influence of Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath on America's Declaration of Independence. However, the connecting theme is not just clarion calls for liberty and independence, but the recognition of the sovereignty of the people first suggested in European history in the Arbroath Declaration and taken to its logical conclusion by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence.
"Today I call on politicians on all sides of the debate to recognise the sovereignty of the people. This is the basis on which the United States first asserted its right to self-government. And it is the guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future - a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.
"When the people of Scotland consider their place in the world and debate our constitutional future, the proper means to exercise this sovereignty is through a referendum.
"Thomas Jefferson wrote that 'Every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will.'
"Scotland, sooner rather than later, is entitled to have the right to choose our constitutional future. That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future - a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.
"And it is the words of Thomas Jefferson that will inspire us - today and in the years ahead: "We are a people capable of self-government, and worthy of it."
Posted by: Tam, Glasgow on 11:14pm Tue 1 Apr 08
Speech in full.........
http://tinyurl.com/2
spbxt
Speech in full.........
http://tinyurl.com/2
spbxt
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 11:14pm Tue 1 Apr 08
Curley Bill.
A big boat and a number of tea bags? ;-)
Curley Bill.
A big boat and a number of tea bags? ;-)
Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 11:59pm Tue 1 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Curley Bill[/bold] wrote:
What would it take for us to have our equivalent of the Tea Party? [/quote] With only 1.3 million males in full time and part time employment in scotland, not much.
Curley Bill wrote:
What would it take for us to have our equivalent of the Tea Party?
With only 1.3 million males in full time and part time employment in scotland, not much.
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 12:02am Wed 2 Apr 08
Aye, well done Frank - very droll!
You know what I mean, do we have to wait for Broon to attempt an Annexation before we show a bit of spine?
I support the SNP and the independence cause, but I watched Mr Swinney on Newsnicht and I swear, he's just too [italic]nice.[/italic]
He should have been more forceful in his arguments to Brewer. It's like Salmond at FMQs - if he snarled at Windy the way he snarls at the LIbDems - remember the 'Happy Christmas' line - he'd break her, because she just can't adapt.
The SNP are doing a good job, but they need to advertise it more to counteract all the Unionist lies.
Aye, well done Frank - very droll!
You know what I mean, do we have to wait for Broon to attempt an Annexation before we show a bit of spine?
I support the SNP and the independence cause, but I watched Mr Swinney on Newsnicht and I swear, he's just too
nice.
He should have been more forceful in his arguments to Brewer. It's like Salmond at FMQs - if he snarled at Windy the way he snarls at the LIbDems - remember the 'Happy Christmas' line - he'd break her, because she just can't adapt.
The SNP are doing a good job, but they need to advertise it more to counteract all the Unionist lies.
Posted by: Colin B, Bearsden on 12:09am Wed 2 Apr 08
Taxation without representation is tyranny! As Swinney said to Cooper
Lets dress up as Indians and throw some English tea off the Kingston Bridge ( sorry can't due to 20 years of roadworks at Charing Cross Off ramp), lets try the squinty bridge -can't its closed due to more incompetence, well how about at Hampden, sorry mate you can't get in hopless incompetence here as well y' know we're training for the Comonwealth games- the Millenium Bridge on The Thames is hopefully fixed now.
Paul Revere made it to Lexington quicker than a drive or a train journey in Scotland or a flight via Terminal 5 due to lack fo progress since 1776.
Public sector mentality and interference in Scotland holds us all back- no wonder the yankees told us to stuff it.
We don't have the Royal Navy to burn down Washington as it did in 1815 ( nearly 40 years after the tea party ya' all when the Navy had finished with the French and Spanish ) but John Reid, Des Browne, Hordon Brown and Alistair Darling have seen to that with defence cuts to fund more sniveeling serpents = bribe to vote Labour.
Taxation without representation is tyranny! As Swinney said to Cooper
Lets dress up as Indians and throw some English tea off the Kingston Bridge ( sorry can't due to 20 years of roadworks at Charing Cross Off ramp), lets try the squinty bridge -can't its closed due to more incompetence, well how about at Hampden, sorry mate you can't get in hopless incompetence here as well y' know we're training for the Comonwealth games- the Millenium Bridge on The Thames is hopefully fixed now.
Paul Revere made it to Lexington quicker than a drive or a train journey in Scotland or a flight via Terminal 5 due to lack fo progress since 1776.
Public sector mentality and interference in Scotland holds us all back- no wonder the yankees told us to stuff it.
We don't have the Royal Navy to burn down Washington as it did in 1815 ( nearly 40 years after the tea party ya' all when the Navy had finished with the French and Spanish ) but John Reid, Des Browne, Hordon Brown and Alistair Darling have seen to that with defence cuts to fund more sniveeling serpents = bribe to vote Labour.
Posted by: Archie, Argyll on 12:19am Wed 2 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Curley Bill[/bold] wrote:
What would it take for us to have our equivalent of the Tea Party? [/quote] £950 worth of Whisky.
£950 worth of Vodka.
£950 worth of Rum
£950 worth of Coke
£950 worth of Tia Maria
£950 worth of Gin
£950 worth of McEwans Export
£950 worth of Mick Jagger
£950 worth of Asti Spumante
£950 worth of Mateus Rose
And a tea chest or three full o skunk would mibbe help get things going a bit.
Eh Whit?
Curley Bill wrote:
What would it take for us to have our equivalent of the Tea Party?
£950 worth of Whisky.
£950 worth of Vodka.
£950 worth of Rum
£950 worth of Coke
£950 worth of Tia Maria
£950 worth of Gin
£950 worth of McEwans Export
£950 worth of Mick Jagger
£950 worth of Asti Spumante
£950 worth of Mateus Rose
And a tea chest or three full o skunk would mibbe help get things going a bit.
Eh Whit?
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:40am Wed 2 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Hamish McKropotkin[/bold] wrote:
Alex, Since when has democracy meant that an unrepresentative minority (about a quarter according you) can insist on a referendum of their choice and at the time of their choosing? Earth calling Alex, earth calling Alex...........fenni e![/quote] so you were also against the civil rights movement then?
or the womens lib movement for equal pay?
its called democracy
did you ever think that perhaps people who dont want indepenedence but do want further powers might like to vote. in fact some people might want to vote no.
do you understand this voting politics thing or are you a member of the labour party and thats the problem?
Hamish McKropotkin wrote:
Alex, Since when has democracy meant that an unrepresentative minority (about a quarter according you) can insist on a referendum of their choice and at the time of their choosing? Earth calling Alex, earth calling Alex...........fenni e!
so you were also against the civil rights movement then?
or the womens lib movement for equal pay?
its called democracy
did you ever think that perhaps people who dont want indepenedence but do want further powers might like to vote. in fact some people might want to vote no.
do you understand this voting politics thing or are you a member of the labour party and thats the problem?
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:43am Wed 2 Apr 08
colin the skye bridge?
Posted by: HenMcStoorie, Port William on 1:06am Wed 2 Apr 08
ARCHIE- I'm you on that one. But what do we do for the rest o the nicht!
ARCHIE- I'm you on that one. But what do we do for the rest o the nicht!
Posted by: Dave, Away on 1:36am Wed 2 Apr 08
I like Alex, but there is a massive difference between the level of support for the American revolution and Scottish independence. The Americans were ready to bleed and die and risk their children's lives and freedom for an uncertain future, just to be free. Only a quarter to a third of Scots are ready to accept independence and I don't see them arming themselves in vast numbers and willing to forgo oil revenues....
Maybe it is time for a referendum. No weasel questions about increased powers, just Independence Yea/Nay.
I like Alex, but there is a massive difference between the level of support for the American revolution and Scottish independence. The Americans were ready to bleed and die and risk their children's lives and freedom for an uncertain future, just to be free. Only a quarter to a third of Scots are ready to accept independence and I don't see them arming themselves in vast numbers and willing to forgo oil revenues....
Maybe it is time for a referendum. No weasel questions about increased powers, just Independence Yea/Nay.
Posted by: Cyber Nat, Edinborg on 1:56am Wed 2 Apr 08
Eckshally Dave only a third of Americans fully supported independence but were in positions of influence and power in the colonial assemblies. Another third were neutral or went with the prevailing wind (or presence of opposing forces) and another third became Canadians...who went on to become independent.
I actually don;t see where Alex Salmond said Scotland now ‘like US colonies in 1770s’ in the actual report so it could be some mischief making by the headline writers to suggest something that isn't happening.
Eckshally Dave only a third of Americans fully supported independence but were in positions of influence and power in the colonial assemblies. Another third were neutral or went with the prevailing wind (or presence of opposing forces) and another third became Canadians...who went on to become independent.
I actually don;t see where Alex Salmond said Scotland now ‘like US colonies in 1770s’ in the actual report so it could be some mischief making by the headline writers to suggest something that isn't happening.
Posted by: Dave, Away on 2:05am Wed 2 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Cyber Nat[/bold] wrote:
Eckshally Dave only a third of Americans fully supported independence but were in positions of influence and power in the colonial assemblies. Another third were neutral or went with the prevailing wind (or presence of opposing forces) and another third became Canadians...who went on to become independent. I actually don;t see where Alex Salmond said Scotland now ‘like US colonies in 1770s’ in the actual report so it could be some mischief making by the headline writers to suggest something that isn't happening. [/quote] Close ,CN but no cigar...while there were many, many UEL's the vast majority of Americans supported independence with weapons, men and cash.
Canadians are not independent. Legally, Queen Elizabeth the II owns every square inch of Canada and has to sign every bill into law (Canada is not Australia).
They do have more devolved powers :-)
Cyber Nat wrote:
Eckshally Dave only a third of Americans fully supported independence but were in positions of influence and power in the colonial assemblies. Another third were neutral or went with the prevailing wind (or presence of opposing forces) and another third became Canadians...who went on to become independent. I actually don;t see where Alex Salmond said Scotland now ‘like US colonies in 1770s’ in the actual report so it could be some mischief making by the headline writers to suggest something that isn't happening.
Close ,CN but no cigar...while there were many, many UEL's the vast majority of Americans supported independence with weapons, men and cash.
Canadians are not independent. Legally, Queen Elizabeth the II owns every square inch of Canada and has to sign every bill into law (Canada is not Australia).
They do have more devolved powers :-)
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 5:23am Wed 2 Apr 08
Let's dress up as Heilan tribesmen and throw the Labour Cooncillors in the Clyde.
Let's dress up as Heilan tribesmen and throw the Labour Cooncillors in the Clyde.
Posted by: CRAGman, Edinburgh on 9:02am Wed 2 Apr 08
Scotland - a land of colonialists par excellence.
Scotland - a land of colonialists par excellence.
Posted by: James Wilkie on 9:18am Wed 2 Apr 08
The First Minister's speech in Virginia was brilliant, and factually impeccable. I suggest commentators read it in full before putting finger to keyboard:
http://www.scotland.
gov.uk/News/This-Wee
k/Speeches/First-Min
ister/Virginia.
It is time that we stopped being UK-parochial and started looking at Scotland within its global environment. Indeed, even Europe is too parochial nowadays. As Alex Salmond points out, recent developments towards globalisation have changed the whole situation, and the nature of the political game, for smaller countries. We have to stop looking at ourselves only within the context of a small group of islands off the coast of Eurasian continent.
The First Minister's speech in Virginia was brilliant, and factually impeccable. I suggest commentators read it in full before putting finger to keyboard:
http://www.scotland.
gov.uk/News/This-Wee
k/Speeches/First-Min
ister/Virginia.
It is time that we stopped being UK-parochial and started looking at Scotland within its global environment. Indeed, even Europe is too parochial nowadays. As Alex Salmond points out, recent developments towards globalisation have changed the whole situation, and the nature of the political game, for smaller countries. We have to stop looking at ourselves only within the context of a small group of islands off the coast of Eurasian continent.
Posted by: subrosa on 11:09am Wed 2 Apr 08
[italic]Posted by: Dave, Away on 1:36am today[/italic]
Lots of work has to be done before we have a referendum. Not enough facts in the public domain. We need to know about our oil for a start...
Once details are made public then we shall notice the rise in the desire for independence.
Posted by: Dave, Away on 1:36am today
Lots of work has to be done before we have a referendum. Not enough facts in the public domain. We need to know about our oil for a start...
Once details are made public then we shall notice the rise in the desire for independence.
Posted by: Dave, Away on 12:10pm Wed 2 Apr 08
"However since then a new, open and more benign international environment has emerged" - This is the kind of "factually impeccable" stuff our Alex was spewing, James?
This is utter BS. The world is more armed and unstable than ever. Power is still flowing right out of the power of nuclear weapons (if you're not in that club bow down, because those are the *only* people the big powers will back down from).
Thanks James for the link. The speech is an atrocious misrepresentation so many times it is sad. The formation of the Union at the time was the best thing for Scotland in the face of the evil that is the Church of Rome and any true Scot favoured it (there were many false brethern who spit on the Arbroath Declaration - which was a gauntlet thrown straight in Rome's tyrannical teeth - at the time of Union, but there are always evil men). There is no Global Society...just competing power blocks regionally based.....
I was beginning to like AS, but this speech when read fully is a major step backwards.
"However since then a new, open and more benign international environment has emerged" - This is the kind of "factually impeccable" stuff our Alex was spewing, James?
This is utter BS. The world is more armed and unstable than ever. Power is still flowing right out of the power of nuclear weapons (if you're not in that club bow down, because those are the *only* people the big powers will back down from).
Thanks James for the link. The speech is an atrocious misrepresentation so many times it is sad. The formation of the Union at the time was the best thing for Scotland in the face of the evil that is the Church of Rome and any true Scot favoured it (there were many false brethern who spit on the Arbroath Declaration - which was a gauntlet thrown straight in Rome's tyrannical teeth - at the time of Union, but there are always evil men). There is no Global Society...just competing power blocks regionally based.....
I was beginning to like AS, but this speech when read fully is a major step backwards.
Posted by: JC on 2:43pm Wed 2 Apr 08
The First Minister visited Monticello, where Thomas Jefferson lived, and delivered a speech at Virginia University, which compared Scotland's position now with that of the 13 American colonies in 1776.
So Scotland is populated by a bunch of upper class slave -owners who don't like paying taxes?
The First Minister visited Monticello, where Thomas Jefferson lived, and delivered a speech at Virginia University, which compared Scotland's position now with that of the 13 American colonies in 1776.
So Scotland is populated by a bunch of upper class slave -owners who don't like paying taxes?
Posted by: JC on 2:45pm Wed 2 Apr 08
PS - the other comparison is with George Washington who famously could not tell a lie. salmond on the other hand.......
PS - the other comparison is with George Washington who famously could not tell a lie. salmond on the other hand.......
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:52pm Wed 2 Apr 08
JC with a load of B[quote]So Scotland is populated by a bunch of upper class slave -owners who don't like paying taxes?[/quote] That's some contrived hook especially for a dumb troll like you.
JC with a load of B
So Scotland is populated by a bunch of upper class slave -owners who don't like paying taxes?
That's some contrived hook especially for a dumb troll like you.
Posted by: Ramsay, Hamburg on 3:25pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Evidently the admirable Mr Salmond is taking well-justified advantage of his opportunities as First Minister of Scotland.
In Scotland Week (or Tartan Week as it used to be) it was always possible for whoever held that office to communicate with the American public in terms of values which they understand and relate to. Unionist first ministers, however, would have had no interest in doing so, and so did not do so. What could the Labour Party's dependency culture and public-sector dominance of the economy have to commend themselves to Americans? How could Americans relate to subservience to a government in London, having themselves decisively rejected that?
As Americans are proud of their history, they cannot be averse to advocacy of independence. They are a self-respecting people, who respect those who are self-respecting too. Mr Salmond is the first Scottish first minister who will command their attention and their respect, as will Scotland if it chooses independence.
Evidently the admirable Mr Salmond is taking well-justified advantage of his opportunities as First Minister of Scotland.
In Scotland Week (or Tartan Week as it used to be) it was always possible for whoever held that office to communicate with the American public in terms of values which they understand and relate to. Unionist first ministers, however, would have had no interest in doing so, and so did not do so. What could the Labour Party's dependency culture and public-sector dominance of the economy have to commend themselves to Americans? How could Americans relate to subservience to a government in London, having themselves decisively rejected that?
As Americans are proud of their history, they cannot be averse to advocacy of independence. They are a self-respecting people, who respect those who are self-respecting too. Mr Salmond is the first Scottish first minister who will command their attention and their respect, as will Scotland if it chooses independence.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:36pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Ramsay Hamburg[quote]Mr Salmond is the first Scottish first minister who will command their attention and their respect, as will Scotland if it chooses independence.[/quote] A commendable post, Ramsay.
And you are correct - the Americans invited Salmond to talk about Scotland, a courtesy his predecessors were never given, nor, as you suggest, would welcome. USA political figures regarded the others are deputies of Westminster allocated to Scotland.
And that, of course, is the chief aim of Scottish Week - raising political awareness of Scotland's ambitions, and to kindle a strong political lobby in the USA, as pronounced as the Irish.
The sentiment I encounter by Americans for Scottish nationhood is two-fold, great sympathy, and often surprise to learn we are not, as they assumed, a separate country from the "Brits."
Ramsay Hamburg
Mr Salmond is the first Scottish first minister who will command their attention and their respect, as will Scotland if it chooses independence.
A commendable post, Ramsay.
And you are correct - the Americans invited Salmond to talk about Scotland, a courtesy his predecessors were never given, nor, as you suggest, would welcome. USA political figures regarded the others are deputies of Westminster allocated to Scotland.
And that, of course, is the chief aim of Scottish Week - raising political awareness of Scotland's ambitions, and to kindle a strong political lobby in the USA, as pronounced as the Irish.
The sentiment I encounter by Americans for Scottish nationhood is two-fold, great sympathy, and often surprise to learn we are not, as they assumed, a separate country from the "Brits."
Posted by: Lachlan, Stirling on 3:38pm Wed 2 Apr 08
No matter how much they love their ancestry, the last thing the United States want is an independent Scotland?
Scotland is a strategic part of UK NATO defences on the North-West rim of Europe with the Royal Navy Trident submarine base at Faslane, and vital RAF air bases at Kinloss and Leuchars.
Another small, independent neutral nation off Europe's shores is no good to the Yanks. Unless of course an indpendent Scotland follows Denmark and Norway's lead?
No matter how much they love their ancestry, the last thing the United States want is an independent Scotland?
Scotland is a strategic part of UK NATO defences on the North-West rim of Europe with the Royal Navy Trident submarine base at Faslane, and vital RAF air bases at Kinloss and Leuchars.
Another small, independent neutral nation off Europe's shores is no good to the Yanks. Unless of course an indpendent Scotland follows Denmark and Norway's lead?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:56pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Lachlan stirling[quote]Another small, independent neutral nation off Europe's shores is no good to the Yanks.[/quote] Too much of a generalisation - it is more accurate to say it is too much for the Bush administration and their need for a rendition flight refueling station, and forallied defence reasons.
There is clear evidence Democrats take a more generous view of Scoltland's hopes for nationhood.
Lachlan stirling
Another small, independent neutral nation off Europe's shores is no good to the Yanks.
Too much of a generalisation - it is more accurate to say it is too much for the Bush administration and their need for a rendition flight refueling station, and forallied defence reasons.
There is clear evidence Democrats take a more generous view of Scoltland's hopes for nationhood.
Posted by: Roderick Louis, Vancouver, BC, Canada on 4:26pm Wed 2 Apr 08
[italic]"Scotland in 2008 is like the American colonies of the late 1700's..."..[/italic]
... proof that delusional politicians are not only confined to fiction....
American colonists could not participate in UK elections and despite this were taxed from Westminster...
People living in Scotland can participate in UK elections...
Without being part of the UK throughout the last 3 centuries, people living in Scotland would not have had a metaphorical soap box and a 'commanding heights' pedestal from which to 'go out into the world and become successes at business, industry and social -construction projects'...
Without being part of the UK during the last 3 centuries, Scotland would have suffered the fate of a very small- inconsequential- European nation such as Lithuania or Estonia... and remained a comparatively backward land of 'unknowns' populated largely by illiterate peasants...
Scotland/people living in Scotland would have been condemned to remain largely invisible-on-the-wor
ld-stage- an entity without prospects and bereft of opportunity for its residents...
Comparing Scotland of today with the entities that became the late 1700's United States makes thrilling reading at first glance... but the differences could not be more stark....
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada
ceo@patientempowerme
ntsociety.com
"Scotland in 2008 is like the American colonies of the late 1700's..."..
... proof that delusional politicians are not only confined to fiction....
American colonists could not participate in UK elections and despite this were taxed from Westminster...
People living in Scotland can participate in UK elections...
Without being part of the UK throughout the last 3 centuries, people living in Scotland would not have had a metaphorical soap box and a 'commanding heights' pedestal from which to 'go out into the world and become successes at business, industry and social -construction projects'...
Without being part of the UK during the last 3 centuries, Scotland would have suffered the fate of a very small- inconsequential- European nation such as Lithuania or Estonia... and remained a comparatively backward land of 'unknowns' populated largely by illiterate peasants...
Scotland/people living in Scotland would have been condemned to remain largely invisible-on-the-wor
ld-stage- an entity without prospects and bereft of opportunity for its residents...
Comparing Scotland of today with the entities that became the late 1700's United States makes thrilling reading at first glance... but the differences could not be more stark....
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada
ceo@patientempowerme
ntsociety.com
Posted by: JC on 5:21pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Lets see, we've got one minister in Houston having business meetings, at least that sounds like he's doing the job he's paid for. We've got Linda Fabiani floating about- not sure what she's doing there, but probably she isn't either, and then there's salmond.....
delivering his homilies to audiences of academics with his shaky grasp of history - part sightseeing, ego trip part party political trip and the joke is we're paying for it.
Lets see, we've got one minister in Houston having business meetings, at least that sounds like he's doing the job he's paid for. We've got Linda Fabiani floating about- not sure what she's doing there, but probably she isn't either, and then there's salmond.....
delivering his homilies to audiences of academics with his shaky grasp of history - part sightseeing, ego trip part party political trip and the joke is we're paying for it.
Posted by: puskas, East Kilbride on 5:37pm Wed 2 Apr 08
[quote][bold]JC[/bold] wrote:
Lets see, we've got one minister in Houston having business meetings, at least that sounds like he's doing the job he's paid for. We've got Linda Fabiani floating about- not sure what she's doing there, but probably she isn't either, and then there's salmond..... delivering his homilies to audiences of academics with his shaky grasp of history - part sightseeing, ego trip part party political trip and the joke is we're paying for it.[/quote] JC.
What would your voting intentions be ;
1) Holyrood election
2) General Election
JC wrote:
Lets see, we've got one minister in Houston having business meetings, at least that sounds like he's doing the job he's paid for. We've got Linda Fabiani floating about- not sure what she's doing there, but probably she isn't either, and then there's salmond..... delivering his homilies to audiences of academics with his shaky grasp of history - part sightseeing, ego trip part party political trip and the joke is we're paying for it.
JC.
What would your voting intentions be ;
1) Holyrood election
2) General Election
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 5:55pm Wed 2 Apr 08
JC Plus A Load of B[quote]Lets see, we've got one[/quote] pain in the a*ss orange troll posting drivel in the hope he somebody and not a nonentity.
JC Plus A Load of B
Lets see, we've got one
pain in the a*ss orange troll posting drivel in the hope he somebody and not a nonentity.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 5:58pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Roderick Shmoderick BC says[quote]Scotland/people living in Scotland would have been condemned to remain largely invisible on theworld stage[/quote] thus giving the exact reason why Scotland should regain its nationhood and NOT be cap-in-hand to another nation.
Roderick Shmoderick BC says
Scotland/people living in Scotland would have been condemned to remain largely invisible on theworld stage
thus giving the exact reason why Scotland should regain its nationhood and NOT be cap-in-hand to another nation.
Posted by: sam, greenock on 6:16pm Wed 2 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Roderick Louis[/bold] wrote:
[italic]"Scotland in 2008 is like the American colonies of the late 1700's..."..[/italic] ... proof that delusional politicians are not only confined to fiction.... American colonists could not participate in UK elections and despite this were taxed from Westminster... People living in Scotland can participate in UK elections... Without being part of the UK throughout the last 3 centuries, people living in Scotland would not have had a metaphorical soap box and a 'commanding heights' pedestal from which to 'go out into the world and become successes at business, industry and social -construction projects'... Without being part of the UK during the last 3 centuries, Scotland would have suffered the fate of a very small- inconsequential- European nation such as Lithuania or Estonia... and remained a comparatively backward land of 'unknowns' populated largely by illiterate peasants... Scotland/people living in Scotland would have been condemned to remain largely invisible-on-the-wor ld-stage- an entity without prospects and bereft of opportunity for its residents... Comparing Scotland of today with the entities that became the late 1700's United States makes thrilling reading at first glance... but the differences could not be more stark.... Roderick V. Louis, Vancouver, BC, Canada ceo@patientempowerme ntsociety.com [/quote] You forgot the stuff about the Type45 destroyers
Roderick Louis wrote:
"Scotland in 2008 is like the American colonies of the late 1700's...".. ... proof that delusional politicians are not only confined to fiction.... American colonists could not participate in UK elections and despite this were taxed from Westminster... People living in Scotland can participate in UK elections... Without being part of the UK throughout the last 3 centuries, people living in Scotland would not have had a metaphorical soap box and a 'commanding heights' pedestal from which to 'go out into the world and become successes at business, industry and social -construction projects'... Without being part of the UK during the last 3 centuries, Scotland would have suffered the fate of a very small- inconsequential- European nation such as Lithuania or Estonia... and remained a comparatively backward land of 'unknowns' populated largely by illiterate peasants... Scotland/people living in Scotland would have been condemned to remain largely invisible-on-the-wor ld-stage- an entity without prospects and bereft of opportunity for its residents... Comparing Scotland of today with the entities that became the late 1700's United States makes thrilling reading at first glance... but the differences could not be more stark.... Roderick V. Louis, Vancouver, BC, Canada ceo@patientempowerme ntsociety.com
You forgot the stuff about the Type45 destroyers
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 6:41pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Hey, Alex Salmond stole my book headline! Nevermind, I'll call it 'The Last Man in Europe'.
The establishment are really caking it now!
Hey, Alex Salmond stole my book headline! Nevermind, I'll call it 'The Last Man in Europe'.
The establishment are really caking it now!
Posted by: puskas, East Kilbride on 6:42pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Robert Louis,
With due respect .
Scotland is awakening slowly but for sure is heading to Independence.
Democracy based on being able to vote only, is a fallacy.
Democracy cannot be truly that when money controls elections either by corrupt politicions and the media. Screwing the electorate by bias untruths for a political particular party ( NuLiebour ) in Scotlands case.
I know Vancouver is a lovely city although I prefer areas surrounding Toronto myself. Ajax for example.
It seems you have pro-unionist views from a distance that conflict on what is happening at this moment in time in Scotland.
We Scots have been screwed by centuries of lies and decete , corruption from quislings that madam quillotine would have taken the boke with.
The Victorian era when Glasgow was called the 2nd city of the British Empire poverty, disease was rife. Business and the Westminster Government made plenty dosh as the working population earned poverty driven wages and lived in hovels. No sanitation, high percentage of childbirths and adults dying young.
Well you may say, but that was yesteryear . Well I would say to you things are not much better as we look around the Central belt in Scotland. Sewage has improved but much hasn't .
Education has been a failure for many in modern day Scotland.
Proper education is probably the most important call for our youth to progress my nation. Self esteem that is missing with many of my countrymen/women will increase to knew levels that will take my country independent and into a modern world..
Take orangeism out of western and Central Scotland and in my opinion bigotry would die a thousand deaths. I say that as a COS lapsed member and have no wish to promote any religion.
Brown by changing the law so that a Roman Catholic could sit on the throne would be a good move to pacify the flock. Of course Charles and his known personality would maybe decide to become muslim.
Scotland and independence goes hand in hand with education . Not anti-English but pro-Scotland. We would always be their to help in times of famine...
I shall finish by saying these are interesting times as Wales and Northern Ireland are in very deep thought on their futures.
Scotland go, and the dominoes will fall and just maybe we will have a UK with 4 Independent nations with equal say and democratic right between us.
Westminster doesn't give any of the 4 nations democracy.
Robert Louis,
With due respect .
Scotland is awakening slowly but for sure is heading to Independence.
Democracy based on being able to vote only, is a fallacy.
Democracy cannot be truly that when money controls elections either by corrupt politicions and the media. Screwing the electorate by bias untruths for a political particular party ( NuLiebour ) in Scotlands case.
I know Vancouver is a lovely city although I prefer areas surrounding Toronto myself. Ajax for example.
It seems you have pro-unionist views from a distance that conflict on what is happening at this moment in time in Scotland.
We Scots have been screwed by centuries of lies and decete , corruption from quislings that madam quillotine would have taken the boke with.
The Victorian era when Glasgow was called the 2nd city of the British Empire poverty, disease was rife. Business and the Westminster Government made plenty dosh as the working population earned poverty driven wages and lived in hovels. No sanitation, high percentage of childbirths and adults dying young.
Well you may say, but that was yesteryear . Well I would say to you things are not much better as we look around the Central belt in Scotland. Sewage has improved but much hasn't .
Education has been a failure for many in modern day Scotland.
Proper education is probably the most important call for our youth to progress my nation. Self esteem that is missing with many of my countrymen/women will increase to knew levels that will take my country independent and into a modern world..
Take orangeism out of western and Central Scotland and in my opinion bigotry would die a thousand deaths. I say that as a COS lapsed member and have no wish to promote any religion.
Brown by changing the law so that a Roman Catholic could sit on the throne would be a good move to pacify the flock. Of course Charles and his known personality would maybe decide to become muslim.
Scotland and independence goes hand in hand with education . Not anti-English but pro-Scotland. We would always be their to help in times of famine...
I shall finish by saying these are interesting times as Wales and Northern Ireland are in very deep thought on their futures.
Scotland go, and the dominoes will fall and just maybe we will have a UK with 4 Independent nations with equal say and democratic right between us.
Westminster doesn't give any of the 4 nations democracy.
Posted by: Archie, Argyll on 7:23pm Wed 2 Apr 08
Well said Puskas.
Scotland has been pillaged time and time again by those preaching false doctrines.
The reformation was probably necessary due to this, however it did not go far enough as the churches remain to this day preaching nonsense sectarianism to all who have been caught in the net.
Indoctrinated from birth by "superior" beings, thus being part of the cause of all the crap that has happened for thousands of years.
They will deny this of course, but you would have to be pretty stupid to not have noticed this abomination on the lives of people on Planet Earth.
And we are supposed to be clever eh?
Well said Puskas.
Scotland has been pillaged time and time again by those preaching false doctrines.
The reformation was probably necessary due to this, however it did not go far enough as the churches remain to this day preaching nonsense sectarianism to all who have been caught in the net.
Indoctrinated from birth by "superior" beings, thus being part of the cause of all the crap that has happened for thousands of years.
They will deny this of course, but you would have to be pretty stupid to not have noticed this abomination on the lives of people on Planet Earth.
And we are supposed to be clever eh?
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 1:17am Thu 3 Apr 08
'Puskas 6.42 pm',
"Brown by changing the law so that a Roman Catholic could sit on the throne would be a good move to pacify the flock."
This, even I find hard to understand.
I've saids it many times now, it's like Bean-Broon is forcing Scotland to independence. I've never seen such stupid tactics from a politician; maybe he's not a lawyer!
Regardless, I bet 'Lizzie' is already planning his place on the Guillotine.
Gaahhne yersel Broon, we'el love ya if it **** aff!
'Puskas 6.42 pm',
"Brown by changing the law so that a Roman Catholic could sit on the throne would be a good move to pacify the flock."
This, even I find hard to understand.
I've saids it many times now, it's like Bean-Broon is forcing Scotland to independence. I've never seen such stupid tactics from a politician; maybe he's not a lawyer!
Regardless, I bet 'Lizzie' is already planning his place on the Guillotine.
Gaahhne yersel Broon, we'el love ya if it **** aff!
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 1:20am Thu 3 Apr 08
Looks like the text editor at the 'Herald' has a sense of humour;
I wrote, " Gaahhne yersel Broon, we'el love ya for it.'
allymax.
Looks like the text editor at the 'Herald' has a sense of humour;
I wrote, " Gaahhne yersel Broon, we'el love ya for it.'
allymax.
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