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[quote]There are still plenty obstacles and disputes down the independence road.[/quote] Preferable to the pot holes and dead end of the defunct UK.

[quote]There are still plenty obstacles and disputes down the independence road.[/quote] But it is still the Independence road we are traveling, for a' that.

Scottish Politics[quote]But it is still the Independence road we are traveling, for a' that.[/quote] Aye, an insightful comment. And that's what the haters of Scotland fear - the know in their hearts there's no turning back no matter how many suicide Unionists blow themselves up in an effort to stop it.

this forces labour to come up with a plan. clever. if they say no to salmond's idea they must have an alternative. obviously independence would not win a sof today, but if 40% support independence and another 11% say they would prefer it as a secondary option to increased powers that got say 35% then it is essentially a democratic decision. the line that the majority of people are against increased powers is a hard road to justify. and the yes campvcan be enlarged to everyone who wants more powers going to edinburgh instead of treating those that want increased powers as being in the "no" camp.

[bold]I want to vote. I AM A DEMOCRAT[/bold]

I think this shows up oor Douglas as an instinctive unionist. You couldn't possibly put a more negative slant on the independence arguement. What about the majority of the population who want an independence referendum Douglas? Are the unionists representing their votes? Ask some real questions fella..

Pretty interesting! Alex salmond setting the parameters for the 'commission', independence, or more devolved power, or status quo. He's just too good for these half-wits in opposition. And, as far as 'independence by the back door' is concerned, there's nothing more transparent and front door than saying in your 2007 manifesto that your party is a nationalist, independence seeking party. All-in-all, that is what the people of Scotland voted for in the first past the post may 2007 election. Bluff and bluster form the opposition. To me, the real issue is how can Alex Salmond tie David Cameron into securing a referendum in the tory manifesto for 2010?

I hope the unionist leaders keep on enraging the Scottish electorate by insisting that they dont trust them to make the right decision for Scotland!What on earth are they afraid off if their 25% claim holds water?Political Cowards every last one of them.The unionists are fast running out of places to hide!

2010 Westminster Election? Indeed, Brown is more of a "man of straw" than Callaghan ever was. Both have denied the will of the people of Scotland. Brown will achieve the same acclamation as Callaghan. 1/2 a term in office.

The only obstacles in the way of independence are the bodies of those who have rolled over for the Union.

Douglas Fraser ; The Nations Shame !

Ronald, he helped pen the powerful rebuke to the potato heads who claimed Scotland was a subsidy junkie. Admittedly, his search for truth seems to waver in its consistency and moral ground - he does not have the clarity of MacWhirter - but he did the cause a great favour. Calling irate bloggers "vermin" was a serious error of journalistic judgment but then he started his blog and opened it to all-comers. Anyhow, this forum is about the unstoppable march towards self-determination ...

Independence is on its way. Its coming yet for a' that and the unionists cannot stop it

If the SNPs timing of the referendum is just before the next election and the three other parties don't bring forward any ideas for more powers, (or if they do have some proposals but they decline a referendum), then surely the SNP must be in a pretty strong position either way for being re-elected with a bigger majority when they go to the polls in 2011. This implies that the three opposition parties will be forced to agree to a referendum.

While Conservatives and LibDems are against referendums, unless they are on Europe then why not a Scottish consultive referendum on the Lisbon Treaty ? Surely they will support the SG and canvass for a NO vote ?

It is clear from this article and the main one on the news section that Douglas Fraser is not a 'journalist' who is willing to be objective over this issue. The slant on his reporting has been very one sided, I expect better from The Herald

[quote][bold]MrC[/bold] wrote: It is clear from this article and the main one on the news section that Douglas Fraser is not a 'journalist' who is willing to be objective over this issue. The slant on his reporting has been very one sided, I expect better from The Herald[/quote] I respect the herald a lot of the time however some journalists are lacking as much objectivity as the Scotsman lacks any credibility as a news paper. I hope the editor takes note and bablances out the reporting as the vast majority of views here would reflect that the journalists may be stuck in the past and the public are way ahead of them and mistrust their views. I sincerely hope this paper carries the flag for Scotland unlike the Scotsman which is becoming increasingly irrelevant and unrepresentative of the general consensus of the Scottish people.

[quote][bold]MrC[/bold] wrote: It is clear from this article and the main one on the news section that Douglas Fraser is not a 'journalist' who is willing to be objective over this issue. The slant on his reporting has been very one sided, I expect better from The Herald[/quote] I respect the herald a lot of the time however some journalists are lacking as much objectivity as the Scotsman lacks any credibility as a news paper. I hope the editor takes note and bablances out the reporting as the vast majority of views here would reflect that the journalists may be stuck in the past and the public are way ahead of them and mistrust their views. I sincerely hope this paper carries the flag for Scotland unlike the Scotsman which is becoming increasingly irrelevant and unrepresentative of the general consensus of the Scottish people.

[bold]http://www.pledgeban k.com/binthescotsman[/bold]

http://tinyurl.com/y vn48s BIN THE SCOTSMAN.

not always a yes no question. in '79 i would have voted no to that devolution bill passed by a small margin, but would have supported independence or a max form of devolution. the point therefore that only 33% supported devolution [italic]per se[/italic] at that time is a misnomer. 33% supported that particular suggestion. that is not the same thing. (i was 17 so not able to vote.)

...and there were the unionists happily thinking they could decide things behind closed doors in Westminster, like they always have done - and then that wicked Salmond man wants a referendum on what they decide.... how undemocratic!

Plenty of obstacles on Tory Alliance twisting road against independence

I've said all along, we need to get these bl@@dy roads fixed

"The idea of asking Scots to list their priorities for Scotland's constitutional future was floated by Alex Salmond, Asking voters to set their priorities can be seen as a sensible option to handle such a choice." Asking the Scottish people to set their priorities for their constitutional future is in no doubt the most sensible option. To ridicule this option is to ridicule the intelligence of the Scottish people. Please be aware, politicians, journalists etc, we are a proud race.

Roadbuilders or Roadblockers ? Let Scotland choose those it wants to lead the country. Mr Fraser please just report the facts.

If there is a referendum and the vote goes against indepedence, will the nationalists here accept that as the settled will of the Scottish people? For how long?

[quote]If there is a referendum and the vote goes against indepedence, will the nationalists here accept that as the settled will of the Scottish people? [/quote] As Mr Salmond said on Newsnight last night, "Yes, of course".

[quote]The reason the commission and conversation remain separate is that Mr Salmond has all the levers of government, and the political wiles to keep his opponents divided.[/quote] Sorry Douglas but this is complete and utter revisionist pish. The reason they are apart is because the unionists waltzed off in an almighty huff and set up their own wee committee which specifically excludes certain options. Contrast this with the all inclusive approach of the Government and it is like chalk and cheese. The Government welcomes the wee commission, the wee commission welcomes nothing which exists outside it's own restricted world. Any cub reporter could have told you that Douglas.

"The pro-devolution majority could put their plan through Holyrood as a mandate for Westminster to enact it with an amendment of the 1998 Scotland Act. That is if they can agree on a plan." basically what you are saying, mr jounalist, is that the unionist allience can just let westmonster decide what we will be allowed to take control of ourselves but instead of a referendum to change the powers that were given in a referendum they will just tell us rebellious scots/naughty children what we will be ALLOWED to do? role on the next elections[bold]bold[/bold]

[italic]One scornful Labour voice yesterday suggested Scotland was being asked to decide its future in the same way it might decide an entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.[/italic] You read it with your own eyes. This anonymous anti-democrat thinks it is ok for people to vote for in a song contest, but [bold]scorns the idea that people may be asked to vote on the future of their country.[/bold] I really wonder sometimes what has happened to the Labour party.

Scottish Politics, Scotland 12:06am today [quote][quote]There are still plenty obstacles and disputes down the independence road.[/quote] But it is still the Independence road we are traveling, for a' that. [/quote] :-)

[bold]GML, right here on 10:03am[/bold] [bold]QUITE![/bold] Presumably he thinks it more democratic to [bold]NOT ASK[/bold] and just do what Westminster says we should do? We know where to look if anybody reports a village idiot missing then, dont we! The Numpty party.

Typical SNP - ramming their view down everyone's throats. Why can't they just accept that the people of Scotland are sick and tired about hearing about this non-starter. Do the SNP have a country they are supposed to be running?

[quote][bold]Proud to be Scottish[/bold] wrote: Typical SNP - ramming their view down everyone's throats. Why can't they just accept that the people of Scotland are sick and tired about hearing about this non-starter. Do the SNP have a country they are supposed to be running?[/quote] Haw Haw Haw Proud to be a Fennie talks pish again! [quote]Why can't you just accept that the people of Scotland are sick and tired about hearing your pish.[/quote] Also your grammar is still pish too, you'll find that the apostrophy in everyones' comes after the "s" not before. Divorced yet?

The bloke who posts under the heavily ironic PTBS is perhaps correct with his grammar as he appears to be in splendid isolation in this blog. His everyONE seems to be singular.

Douglas, Pity you did not name the numpty who said, One scornful Labour voice yesterday suggested Scotland was being asked to decide its future in the same way it might decide an entry to the Eurovision Song Contest. Is he the same numpty who said Scotland would be thrown out of the Eurovision Song Contest if Scotland was independent? Salmond has outmaneuvered the opposition again, the question today now is how do you want to vote in THE referendum. The old sales assumed close, i.e. the old classic, your place or mine.

having had candidates in oz lose to people in third place let alone second in the transferable vote system the suggestion of alex is a poor one. it will howbevr head off the idea at scottish elections where a lib lab pact would destroy everyone else. assuming they got near 50% combined, not so likely as it used to be. option needs include tory and labour option, so between increased powers and independence. the status quo has gone as an option one feels. if the opposition agree of course!

PTBS wrote: [quote]Typical SNP - ramming their view down everyone's throats.[/quote] Really?, so offering a referendum is 'ramming their view down everyones throat'? Didn't you realise how utterly stupid that statement is? Why the hell are you taking the time to type stuff that can only serve to make you look foolish? The 'Iraq War' thread demonstrated how your blind devotion to the Union warps your logic. This leads to poor performance in debates and results in you foregoing credibility. Thankfully, like those people participating in sectarian marches, you represent a weird and distastefull minority and are not representative of the vast majority of Scots, independence supporting or otherwise.

If unionists want a clear answer then they must include independence as an option for a referendum. It's interesting that many of those objecting to a referendum, saying the voting system is undemocratic, do not even support a referendum. I don't think that the unionist parties, business, or the churches speak for me. I want my vote.

[quote][bold]Ian Johnston[/bold] wrote: If there is a referendum and the vote goes against indepedence, will the nationalists here accept that as the settled will of the Scottish people? For how long?[/quote] If there is a referendum and Independence is the option, will the Uniosist acept this as the settled will of the people?????

Of course it has to be remembered independence supporters don't need a referendum, all we need to do is gain roughly 40% of the vote at the next Westminster general election and independence is ours!

[quote][bold]Scottish Politics[/bold] wrote: [quote]There are still plenty obstacles and disputes down the independence road.[/quote] But it is still the Independence road we are traveling, for a' that. [/quote] Quote of the day - short, clear and to the point. A reply that makes a nonsense of Douglas Fraser's biased commentary.

[quote]There are still plenty obstacles and disputes down the independence road.[/quote] At least we still have four wheels on the wagon. Wendy is on the hard shoulder, blawing steam.

PtbS - I thought Gordon told you never to use this moniker again ? What have you got against Ptb British ? PtbB - Your country needs you !

[quote][bold]juankerr[/bold] wrote: http://tinyurl.com/y vn48s BIN THE SCOTSMAN. [/quote] [bold]AGREE. UNLESS YOU CAN'T AFFORD TOILET ROLLS[/bold] .

Only two Douglas - Westminster and apathy.

[quote][bold]Duns Scotus[/bold] wrote: [quote]There are still plenty obstacles and disputes down the independence road.[/quote] Preferable to the pot holes and dead end of the defunct UK. [/quote] Scottish Labour had a stranglehold over Scottish politics for over 50 years. Likewise for over fifty years the A82 linking the West Highlands with Glasgow and the Central Belt has been totally ignored. We in the West Highlands are fed up with a road not fit for purpose. We are fed up with the pot holes, the dangers and the hold-ups. It's time to move on don't you think.

I've just had a look at Brian Taylor's most recent blog and noticed something peculiar. Where once there was an absence of the troll like comments that aim at getting a 'reaction' from independence supporters there has suddenly appeared a handfull of such posts. The blog is moderated to the extent that every post is scrutinised. Therefore I have to wonder why all of a sudden the 'provocative' comments have suddenly slipped through the net. Like the earlier days of The Herald comments the posts are well constructed and without abuse, they are also overwhelmingly pro-independence. Take a look please and see for yourself.

As the juan-man says, 'BIN THE SCOTSMAN'. It is a crap establishment viewspaper. I'm of the mind the owner, andrew neill is a turncoat, he is always 'lunching' with Bean-Broon at #10. And, he's one of Bean-Broons 'let's have lunch in China this week' pals. As a turncoat is easy to turn to what benefits him/her, I expect to see andrew neill being oh-so Scottish when the nation is independent. He's one of the variety that when you can't win in a fair manner, cheat and use the engerlish establishment, (angiolini and the keystone cops), to oppress the rebelious Scots. As far as the Sheridans are concerned, the judge will find them not guilty. After-all when the judge said someone was lying, he found the Sheridans innocent! The public favour and support the Sheridans have in Scotland now is all more the result of this bully-boy tactic the establishment uses. Scots recognise the establishment at work now, and they don't like it, want it, and they see it has been the opression of their-selves and nation over the last 300+ years. We need to get the establishment out. Vote SNP and get independence. That way we get rid of angiolini, and all the NuNaziLab's and everything the engerlish establisment stands for. I've noticed the cops have stopped releasing all their bully-boy views to the media! Maybe they've realised that their establishemnt bully-boy tactics and politics of fear are turning the Scottish people against them! Maybe that's why Kenny MacAskill is wooing them in the knowledge they're about to 'turn'. The establishment in Scotland is a sinking ship. And with the 'national conversation' about to provide us with operational audits of all the national public institutions, the public institutions that were told (by the establishment), to institutionalize the public are beginning to change their tact; turncoats, but none-the-less, they are welcome to come aboard the train for independence. Once a sinner has repented, all sins are forgiven.

It is obvious that Alex Salmond and the SNP have clear logic and have thought out the answers to their policies. A case in point was Alex Salmond's suggestion, of what is the doomsday scenario for him, that if the Scottish people reject independence in a referendum, the matter would be closed for a generation. If you then look at the Labour Party; they are totally directionless. We never hear any straight answers from them or any coherent arguments of what they want to do for Scotland. Their spokespersons are always hedging their bets in case they inadvertently go against (indistinct) Westminster policy. They are totally hog-tied.

Allymax wrote: [quote]NuNaziLab's[/quote] Allymax, We don't have to resort to this type of language in order to put forward a positive and constructive argument for independence.

If a referendum for independence failed this would mean, for me, the end of the project - for about ten seconds. The only way a referendum could fail is if Dougie Alexander or a clone was in charge of the process.

George Alexander, as a long term supporter of independence I agree with you. It's time for some nationalists on these boards to raise their games and get away from petty mud-slinging. The same point might also be made of some of the unionists present.

Dear Douglas “Analysis”. Try opinion Douglas, you are offering an opinion, nothing more. “The road to Scottish independence was never going to be straight”. When you are an occupied country and the people are denied their own right of sovereignty the road to freedom is never straight. “Yesterday, it took a new twist. The idea of asking Scots to list their priorities for Scotland's constitutional future was floated by Alex Salmond, as a means of drawing in support from those opposed to his independence plans”. If you ask the ordinary person if they are British or Scottish, 4 to 1 come back and say Scottish, 50, 60 years ago it was the other way round. The tide has turned forever. “He had already suggested a multi-option referendum, including independence, devolution-plus and the status quo. He spelled out yesterday how it might work. Asking voters to set their priorities can be seen as a sensible option to handle such a choice. By contrast, first-past-the-post could possibly have won independence on little more than a third of the vote, with 65% split between the non- independence options”. Is this not much better than Wendy Alexander’s campaign to try and be popular called the “Commission”? “But as a new development, it opened the SNP leader to various lines of attack; making up the rules as he goes along, cooking up a recipe for confusion, allowing independence by the back door, lacking the confidence to win a majority of votes by more conventional means, and deciding Scotland's future on the basis that it gets the least unpopular option”. Whatever road gets you there Douglas. “One scornful Labour voice yesterday suggested Scotland was being asked to decide its future in the same way it might decide an entry to the Eurovision Song Contest”. The Eurovision Song Contest made up of independent country were each year an English act is put forward as “British”. “At least Mr Salmond had succeeded in getting people to take part in his National Conversation. That was his main aim when he convened the leaders of civic Scotland's institutions in Edinburgh University yesterday, from academia, business, unions, voluntary groups, many of which cold-shouldered the SNP in opposition”. Now they are waking up to where their bread is buttered, this new found interest is probably based on self interest. “He had reason to feel chipper that Conservatives, Labour and LibDems have responded since its first launch, last August, by moving on to his constitutional turf and all agreeing Holyrood needs more powers”. What a kicking Salmond has given all three parties who are out of step with the people. “He could also contrast the slick arguments and presentation behind the launch yesterday of his conversation's second phase with the faltering steps his anti-independence opponents took towards announcing on Tuesday that academic and medic Sir Kenneth Calman will chair their Scottish Parliament Commission”. I sent Calman an email Douglas, the boy will not be happy with the contents, the medic doctors who cover up for other doctors never are! More on that possibly later! “The reason the commission and conversation remain separate is that Mr Salmond has all the levers of government, and the political wiles to keep his opponents divided on most issues, but on his independence plan, they are united against him”. The Wendy Commission is just a smokescreen, pure window dressing, if the Parliament get more powers, Salmond wins, if they take powers away, Salmond wins and if nothing happens then Salmond wins. “Without their 78 votes, he cannot get the referendum he says he wants in 2010”. The historic duty of the SNP is to free the central belt of Labour so that people can move forward. “The pro-devolution majority could put their plan through Holyrood as a mandate for Westminster to enact it with an amendment of the 1998 Scotland Act. That is if they can agree on a plan”. A plan, would that be a plan that doesn’t allow Alexander to try and teal the credit? “The First Minister is appealing to the public to back him in saying the electorate should decide in a referendum”. I agree! “While Conservatives and LibDems are against referendums, unless they are on Europe, Labour's Wendy Alexander says it is "highly unlikely" she will change her mind and back one”. As Gordon Brown’s proxy in Scotland, she will do as London Labour instructs her! “That possibly means she could do so if confident that Alex Salmond would lose”. Alexander has no support among the people and any referendum could be turned into a vote against her illegal donation scandal. “The argument is over the precedent set in 1997, when a referendum was seen as an essential test of public opinion for the setting up of the Scottish Parliament. Some say any significant constitutional change would require the same: others say the changes they have in mind are not sufficiently significant”. If Calman just tinkers with the edges which I am sure is on the cards then all three will want to avoid a vote. “And yesterday's strongly-worded exchanges did not even start on the question of testing public opinion once a split from the UK has been negotiated. The SNP plan is currently to have one referendum, to mandate those negotiations before the costs, downsides and compromises with London are clear. There are still plenty obstacles and disputes down the independence road”. Better to be the master of your own country with potential rather than the dog of the English empire getting thrown scraps (grant). Independence now! Finally well done for stating on the news that Alexander and her cabal are only doing this to respond to the SNP and the will of the people. Yours sincerely George Laird The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

[quote][bold]richard[/bold] wrote: Of course it has to be remembered independence supporters don't need a referendum, all we need to do is gain roughly 40% of the vote at the next Westminster general election and independence is ours! [/quote] Well of course that was the SNP campaign for many years. "Give us a majority of Scottish seats in Westminster and we will immediately negotiate independence and then, when that is done, call a new general election and abolish ourselves." Which makes an interesting contrast with "Give us a majority of seats at Holyrood and we will initiate a conversation leading to a possible white paper and in due course a referendum of some sort." Perhaps the cheques from the House of Commons expenses office are just too attractive to give up? Still, perhaps that nice Mr Trump will help out...

Am I suppose to fund every penny ante review/commission/en quiry that comes along from the money I've saved from the freeze on council tax,if there is a majority in parliament to give it the green light?I don't think so.Let's all screw the nut,please,and have one commission on one subject at a time funded by my legal representatives in Edinburgh ie the government and parliament in unison. I don't mind politicians taking the petted lip but resent this ganging up to mug this government using my money.The 3 unionist parties between them and their Westminster equivalents should be paying for this academic exercise themselves from their own funds. I daresay it was OK to experiment on Scotland by imposing 18 years of Maggie T on us without us voting for it,as well as bringing in the poll tax ahead of the rest of the UK.If the Unionists think it will be that much of a disaster why don't we have another little experiment using Scotland as a test bed for 20 years of independence.If it does turn out to be that much of a disaster we can always get back together again.Let's see some creative thinking from Wendy,Annabel and Nicol to campaign for a yes vote in an immediate referendum and call Mr Salmond's bluff!

[quote]Posted by: David Alexander on 12:41pm today "Wendy is on the hard shoulder, blawing steam."[/quote] If it's a cold night she's usually peeing steam.

George, I hope you reported AllyMax! I wouldn't want it to be said that you were a hypocrite for only reporting me for my "saltired jackboot" comment, stamping repeatedly on the heads of borderers! We are peripheral now, we would be even more peripheral in an independent scotland and our brethren on the other side the same in an independent england. Borderers unite!

George/Gregor; you fools, you've done it now. You've shown we can be divided and conquered simply by the relevance of language! You two aren't police officers by any chance?

nurse bill, you would be confident of getting the No to independence vote then? Some people vote for labour regardless of what they do or what policies they decide they'll implement. For these people, independence doesn't come into it and even though 16% of Scots voted for labour at last years elections, you cannot expect they'll all come out and vote for the union. Alex Salmond and his cabinet have been nothing but impressive in their reign so far. Compare this to Wendy Alexander and Labour. Both who've been ousted for corruption time and time again (from John Lindsay from East Lothian who manufactured his own redundancy 2 months before he was due to retire to swindle £150,000 from the people he was elected to represent right up to Wendy herself who really should have been prosecuted twice) and who have no direction at all. Same goes for the lib dems. They have failed to make an impact. Both parties failed their voters in their childish attempts in sniping at the Scottish budget without making any real effort to amend it. Even though they have the clout! They proved themselves inept and useless. Add that to the fact that the polls suggest that people who were scared off from voting for the SNP have found a new confidence. You will never remove this. I know of plenty who have turned their back on labour, myself included. Labour bled parts of Glasgow dry. They ride roughshod over Glasgow still. If you look at the traditional labour heartlands - they are all deprived areas and are some of the worst in Europe. It is no wonder only 16% of Scots voted for them and I'd bet my house that they will not achieve double figures at the next election. Call Alex Salmond's bluff? LOL None have the bottle because they simply don’t have the talent!

The Glaswegian @ 5:07 pm said, [quote]corruption time and time again (from John Lindsay from East Lothian who manufactured his own redundancy 2 months before he was due to retire to swindle £150,000 from the people he was elected to represent right up to Wendy herself who really should have been prosecuted twice)[/quote] A Labour councillor is under investigation in South Ayrshire for allegedly forging the signature of another Labour councillor. This is the Council from which the Leader, the appalling Andy Hill resigned without warning in 2006. Pigs - snouts - troughs Thank goodness they are being flushed out.

[quote][bold]allymax[/bold] wrote: George/Gregor; you fools, you've done it now. You've shown we can be divided and conquered simply by the relevance of language! You two aren't police officers by any chance?[/quote] On the contrary, no-one has been conquered and no-one is divided. You may or may not genuinely support independence, however like the 'chuckle head' called Martin, phrases that suggest any connection wi