Standard Grade ‘to be axed by Scots ministers’
The Scottish Government
is planning to abolish Standard Grade and Intermediate qualifications as part of
continuing reform of the
curriculum, it was claimed
yesterday.
According to reports, ministers have decided to replace Standard Grades at General and Credit levels as well as Intermediate 1 and 2 following a long-running review of
the qualifications system,
started by the former Scottish Executive.
The Times Higher Education Supplement Scotland said Standard Grades would be replaced by a qualification aimed at those who cannot, or do not wish to, take a given subject at Higher.
There will also be exams in literacy and numeracy for all pupils in the December of S4, the paper reported.
However, a spokeswoman for the Scottish Government described the reports as "premature" and said no suggestions had been discussed by the cabinet.
And Fiona Hyslop, the Education Secretary, said yesterday that any proposals would be unveiled in the near future.
She said: "I am currently considering what changes are needed to the Standard Grade and Intermediate 1 and 2 qualifications, and I will announce further details of our plans in the next few weeks."
She added: "Higher qualifications will continue to
be the gold standard of Scottish education, and we will look at how we can influence the system to ensure that
the two-term dash is not the only route to Highers for our young people. Flexibility will be key."
Speculation about the future of Standard Grade has been a hot topic in education circles for the past few years with some councils, such as East Renfrewshire, already dropping the qualification completely.
The exam has its supporters, but opposition was bolstered by an international report which called for the scrap-
ping of Standard Grades as part of a reform of Scottish education.
The study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development said the qualification should be phased out because of the
lack of status it carries "at the lower level of grades" and because it hinders the development of vocational education in schools.
Meanwhile, Scottish teachers are being lured away to a life in Australia by the promise of "big blue skies, amazing scenery and an enviable lifestyle".
The claim is made in advertising material for a new recruitment drive by the government of Western Australia, which is facing shortages of school staff.
In particular, officials there want to attract teachers to remote rural schools and are offering subsidised rent, extra salary inducements and even allowances for fridges, freezers and air-conditioning.
The government held a seminar in Glasgow last week that attracted 70 teachers and plans future visits to follow up interest and hold interviews. Twenty interviews have already taken place.
Mark McGowan, Educa-tion Minister for Western Australia, said: "This is a fantastic opportunity for teachers across Scotland to experience the Australian way of life while working at a government school."
The recruitment drive comes at a time when hundreds of newly qualified teachers are unable to find a permanent job in Scottish schools.
Hundreds of additional teachers have been trained to meet government class-size commitments and ministers have also run an overseas recruitment campaign that has resulted in the arrival of record numbers of teachers from abroad.
However, most newly qualified teachers want to live in urban areas such as Glasgow, Edinburgh and the central belt rather than in rural parts of Scotland.
© All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without
permission is prohibited.
Posted by: subrosa on 1:51am Sat 22 Mar 08
Hopefully the new qualifications will be better presented. In the past I've had youngsters come to me for a job saying they had an E or an F in a subject and they thought they'd passed!
It wasn't easy to convince them they had not.
Hopefully the new qualifications will be better presented. In the past I've had youngsters come to me for a job saying they had an E or an F in a subject and they thought they'd passed!
It wasn't easy to convince them they had not.
Posted by: col, seattle on 2:28am Sat 22 Mar 08
continuing reform? more like continuous reform of the curriculum. I can't help but feel angry about the way thousands of pupils (like my niece) have been treated like guinea-pigs by taking Intermediate exams. Employers were adamant they wouldn't accept these new qualifications, but the puppet-masters in Edinburgh knew better than mere employers. Next disaster-in-waiting is the modification of the "two-term dash" for Highers. This "gold standard" ain't broke so it must be fixed, and the little puppets will be tangled in knots. I'm sure the next brilliant idea excreted from Edinburgh will be along the lines of 50% of school-leavers achieving 5 Highers at grade A. Watch the tests become diluted and devoid of significance. If the goal is to have all school-leavers have a piece of paper to prove to employers they are worthwhile candidates, then employers need to be brought onboard (this is where a high school diploma could work to confirm the basics have been mastered). If kids aren't gifted or interested in uni, then that is ok - trade-schools must have a more prominent place in Scotland as a stepping-stone to a good job, as is the case here. Listen to employers and do not even think of "improving" Highers; the "two-term dash may be stressful, but it's necessary to gauge ability.
continuing reform? more like continuous reform of the curriculum. I can't help but feel angry about the way thousands of pupils (like my niece) have been treated like guinea-pigs by taking Intermediate exams. Employers were adamant they wouldn't accept these new qualifications, but the puppet-masters in Edinburgh knew better than mere employers. Next disaster-in-waiting is the modification of the "two-term dash" for Highers. This "gold standard" ain't broke so it must be fixed, and the little puppets will be tangled in knots. I'm sure the next brilliant idea excreted from Edinburgh will be along the lines of 50% of school-leavers achieving 5 Highers at grade A. Watch the tests become diluted and devoid of significance. If the goal is to have all school-leavers have a piece of paper to prove to employers they are worthwhile candidates, then employers need to be brought onboard (this is where a high school diploma could work to confirm the basics have been mastered). If kids aren't gifted or interested in uni, then that is ok - trade-schools must have a more prominent place in Scotland as a stepping-stone to a good job, as is the case here. Listen to employers and do not even think of "improving" Highers; the "two-term dash may be stressful, but it's necessary to gauge ability.
Posted by: subrosa on 3:07am Sat 22 Mar 08
The high school diploma is just an American term for the old Scottish Leaving Certificate which was a highly prized qualification in its day.
The high school diploma is just an American term for the old Scottish Leaving Certificate which was a highly prized qualification in its day.
Posted by: Vincent-W on 8:02am Sat 22 Mar 08
They come to high school shiny faced and desperate to learn at S1 - then spend 2 years marking time because secondary school teachers can't or won't read the primary school reports, at last in S3 they start working towards useless standard grades which most of them could have got in S2. By this time they are totally bored and unchallenged.
Then highers come as shock because they cannot be passed without some effort. (they are still only marginally more difficult than the GCE O levels I did 30 odd years ago.)
The whole academic system is dumbed down to a very low level. There should be a 10% quota for grade A, 20% for B and 30% for grade C - the rest fail. The number of kids getting straight A's is ridiculous and gives no differentiation between the moderately bright and the exceptionally bright.
The biggest problem is that we don't value non academic work.
They come to high school shiny faced and desperate to learn at S1 - then spend 2 years marking time because secondary school teachers can't or won't read the primary school reports, at last in S3 they start working towards useless standard grades which most of them could have got in S2. By this time they are totally bored and unchallenged.
Then highers come as shock because they cannot be passed without some effort. (they are still only marginally more difficult than the GCE O levels I did 30 odd years ago.)
The whole academic system is dumbed down to a very low level. There should be a 10% quota for grade A, 20% for B and 30% for grade C - the rest fail. The number of kids getting straight A's is ridiculous and gives no differentiation between the moderately bright and the exceptionally bright.
The biggest problem is that we don't value non academic work.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 8:22am Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote:
They come to high school shiny faced and desperate to learn at S1 - then spend 2 years marking time because secondary school teachers can't or won't read the primary school reports, at last in S3 they start working towards useless standard grades which most of them could have got in S2. By this time they are totally bored and unchallenged.
Then highers come as shock because they cannot be passed without some effort. (they are still only marginally more difficult than the GCE O levels I did 30 odd years ago.)
The whole academic system is dumbed down to a very low level. There should be a 10% quota for grade A, 20% for B and 30% for grade C - the rest fail. The number of kids getting straight A's is ridiculous and gives no differentiation between the moderately bright and the exceptionally bright.
The biggest problem is that we don't value non academic work.[/quote]
QUOTA's are definitely NOT what is needed.
No need to punish children for the failings of successive governments just start teaching properly them earlier and in more depth....
It's not rocket science.
Less Targets more learning.
Vincent-W wrote:
They come to high school shiny faced and desperate to learn at S1 - then spend 2 years marking time because secondary school teachers can't or won't read the primary school reports, at last in S3 they start working towards useless standard grades which most of them could have got in S2. By this time they are totally bored and unchallenged.
Then highers come as shock because they cannot be passed without some effort. (they are still only marginally more difficult than the GCE O levels I did 30 odd years ago.)
The whole academic system is dumbed down to a very low level. There should be a 10% quota for grade A, 20% for B and 30% for grade C - the rest fail. The number of kids getting straight A's is ridiculous and gives no differentiation between the moderately bright and the exceptionally bright.
The biggest problem is that we don't value non academic work.
QUOTA's are definitely NOT what is needed.
No need to punish children for the failings of successive governments just start teaching properly them earlier and in more depth....
It's not rocket science.
Less Targets more learning.
Posted by: Vincent-W, Fife on 8:38am Sat 22 Mar 08
Wardog,
It's not punishing children for govt failings - it's rewarding children for working hard! Also it helps to differentiate. Currently employers/universiti
es etc cannot differentiate.
Your proposal crates a situation where kids don't need to learn much to gain decent 'grades' and actually discourages learning.
They're not quotas - but they would create youngsters capable of understanding rocket science. Your grasp is tenuous - but then again you probably got an 'A' at standard grade.
Wardog,
It's not punishing children for govt failings - it's rewarding children for working hard! Also it helps to differentiate. Currently employers/universiti
es etc cannot differentiate.
Your proposal crates a situation where kids don't need to learn much to gain decent 'grades' and actually discourages learning.
They're not quotas - but they would create youngsters capable of understanding rocket science. Your grasp is tenuous - but then again you probably got an 'A' at standard grade.
Posted by: IAH on 8:48am Sat 22 Mar 08
So we can carry on producing illiterates then if theres no standard grade to pass. Brilliant!
So we can carry on producing illiterates then if theres no standard grade to pass. Brilliant!
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:42am Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote:
Wardog,
It's not punishing children for govt failings - it's rewarding children for working hard! Also it helps to differentiate. Currently employers/universiti
es etc cannot differentiate.
Your proposal crates a situation where kids don't need to learn much to gain decent 'grades' and actually discourages learning.
They're not quotas - but they would create youngsters capable of understanding rocket science. Your grasp is tenuous - but then again you probably got an 'A' at standard grade.[/quote]
Dear oh Dear
Your are one of these lunatics that annually berate kids achieving high grades and that it was 'tougher when i did it'
Aye right!
My proposal is to remove S grades and start teaching for the love of learning in S1, to avoid putting the kids into stasis for 2-3 years before they 'need' to learn for their highers.... all to achieve grades.
Your proposals of a 'moving quota system' doesn't take into any account whatsoever individual talents between generations, indeed it would neutralise that which is plainly insane, something you seem to agree with by your reference to 30 year old O grades.
Physics and indeed 'rocket science' has moved on massively from when you sat the tests, the whole of scientific theory has been fundamentally changed with moves in information technology, scope of history, scope for art & literature, biology, theoretical & laboratry physics....not to mention modern studies!
How can you possibly equate what you sat back in the 1970's with what today's kids have to learn?
Apologies if I sound a little infuriated, but I'm sick of older generations berating kids these days, you should maybe take a leaf out of Tony Ben's comments at the Scottish parliament this week.
[italic]
"Young people today are the first generation to know more than their parents."[/italic]
The day's of simply book studying to get a grade are over.
If you subscribe to any notion of the 'knowledge economy' you will know that 'book clever isn't clever enough' - children must be equipped with a thirst for learning, the tools for accessing information and the skills for problem solving and this must be sustained whatever grade they achieve in school.
[bold]PS[/bold]
Vince, please tell us what the 40% that [bold]'fail'[/bold] under your 'quota system' will be doing?
Life doesn't end with a C Grade does it!?!
[bold]PPS[/bold]
[italic]And yes Vince, thanks for speculating, I did get good grades in school and at university and have since pursued a number of career paths in the last twenty years...... can't recall O grades or indeed standard grades being very important at university, seem to recall the hunger for knowledge and a good work ethic being paramount to both getting in, succeeding and then working well.[/italic]
Can we assume that you are indeed a rocket scientist who is moonlighting as an S2 Assistant Teacher?
Vincent-W wrote:
Wardog,
It's not punishing children for govt failings - it's rewarding children for working hard! Also it helps to differentiate. Currently employers/universiti
es etc cannot differentiate.
Your proposal crates a situation where kids don't need to learn much to gain decent 'grades' and actually discourages learning.
They're not quotas - but they would create youngsters capable of understanding rocket science. Your grasp is tenuous - but then again you probably got an 'A' at standard grade.
Dear oh Dear
Your are one of these lunatics that annually berate kids achieving high grades and that it was 'tougher when i did it'
Aye right!
My proposal is to remove S grades and start teaching for the love of learning in S1, to avoid putting the kids into stasis for 2-3 years before they 'need' to learn for their highers.... all to achieve grades.
Your proposals of a 'moving quota system' doesn't take into any account whatsoever individual talents between generations, indeed it would neutralise that which is plainly insane, something you seem to agree with by your reference to 30 year old O grades.
Physics and indeed 'rocket science' has moved on massively from when you sat the tests, the whole of scientific theory has been fundamentally changed with moves in information technology, scope of history, scope for art & literature, biology, theoretical & laboratry physics....not to mention modern studies!
How can you possibly equate what you sat back in the 1970's with what today's kids have to learn?
Apologies if I sound a little infuriated, but I'm sick of older generations berating kids these days, you should maybe take a leaf out of Tony Ben's comments at the Scottish parliament this week.
"Young people today are the first generation to know more than their parents."
The day's of simply book studying to get a grade are over.
If you subscribe to any notion of the 'knowledge economy' you will know that 'book clever isn't clever enough' - children must be equipped with a thirst for learning, the tools for accessing information and the skills for problem solving and this must be sustained whatever grade they achieve in school.
PS
Vince, please tell us what the 40% that
'fail' under your 'quota system' will be doing?
Life doesn't end with a C Grade does it!?!
PPS
And yes Vince, thanks for speculating, I did get good grades in school and at university and have since pursued a number of career paths in the last twenty years...... can't recall O grades or indeed standard grades being very important at university, seem to recall the hunger for knowledge and a good work ethic being paramount to both getting in, succeeding and then working well.
Can we assume that you are indeed a rocket scientist who is moonlighting as an S2 Assistant Teacher?
Posted by: turpie, clydesdale on 10:24am Sat 22 Mar 08
Away back before we formally accepted there was such a thing as spin, the population, poor trusting souls, were encouraged to believe the Educational System was safe in the hands of good teachers promoted to become poor administrators, and chosen from among them the ambition-led administrators (long removed from the classroom) who offered a strange New System, (accepted to the wonderment of all, trusting souls included), which promised that no child would leave school without a qualification. The New System artfully concealed that A, B, C Grades were above the old weel-kent 50% and that E, and F were below it and used to be called failures. The educator's inspiration had to be Lewis Carroll.
There were some who said it was a con, and for a generation we've been encouraged to believe "Everybody qualifies"..."Nobody dies"... Now, please, educationist/politic
ians, you have your chance. Get rid of it. Design for us a simple system that satisfies Scottish 21'st century needs . There are commercial needs, industrial needs and cultural needs that must be met (not an easy task, but the present system will provide a manual of much to avoid ) and hopefully you will replace the false illusion we used to have (that our system was a world leader) with one of genuine value.
Away back before we formally accepted there was such a thing as spin, the population, poor trusting souls, were encouraged to believe the Educational System was safe in the hands of good teachers promoted to become poor administrators, and chosen from among them the ambition-led administrators (long removed from the classroom) who offered a strange New System, (accepted to the wonderment of all, trusting souls included), which promised that no child would leave school without a qualification. The New System artfully concealed that A, B, C Grades were above the old weel-kent 50% and that E, and F were below it and used to be called failures. The educator's inspiration had to be Lewis Carroll.
There were some who said it was a con, and for a generation we've been encouraged to believe "Everybody qualifies"..."Nobody dies"... Now, please, educationist/politic
ians, you have your chance. Get rid of it. Design for us a simple system that satisfies Scottish 21'st century needs . There are commercial needs, industrial needs and cultural needs that must be met (not an easy task, but the present system will provide a manual of much to avoid ) and hopefully you will replace the false illusion we used to have (that our system was a world leader) with one of genuine value.
Posted by: davieboy on 10:42am Sat 22 Mar 08
Who is going to pay for the additional teachers. Across the country Local Authorities are cutting the number of teachers on permanent contract in order to meet the financial constraints placed on them by the freeze on council tax.
If there is going to be flexibility then you need more slack / capacity in the system and i don't see any. If you dont believe me, speak to the EIS in Renfrewshire & Aberdeen.
Who is going to pay for the additional teachers. Across the country Local Authorities are cutting the number of teachers on permanent contract in order to meet the financial constraints placed on them by the freeze on council tax.
If there is going to be flexibility then you need more slack / capacity in the system and i don't see any. If you dont believe me, speak to the EIS in Renfrewshire & Aberdeen.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 1:11pm Sat 22 Mar 08
so when we actually read the article we find that even though the headline says standard grades are to be axed we find no decision has been taken as yet. Accurate reporting i think not.
so when we actually read the article we find that even though the headline says standard grades are to be axed we find no decision has been taken as yet. Accurate reporting i think not.
Posted by: Takamine2002, NJ via East Kilbride on 1:11pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote]QUOTA's are definitely NOT what is needed..... Less Targets more learning.[/quote]
ok Wardog - just to put your perspective in perspective.. you should have said "QUOTAs" (no apostrophe) and "Fewer Targets" (not "Less")
Sorry - but you illustrate the problem. Scottish education is suffering because its recipients are not being taught little niceties such as the difference between possessive and plural forms. Nor are their teachers. It is time that literacy was restored. This is especially important in an age when our kids learn "internet speak" very early. As a Nation, we should want children and adults who can express themselves as articulately as they are able in writing and speech. I'm not advocating a return to pre-war grammar, just a maintenance of basic literacy in English and arithmetic. Please.
QUOTA's are definitely NOT what is needed..... Less Targets more learning.
ok Wardog - just to put your perspective in perspective.. you should have said "QUOTAs" (no apostrophe) and "Fewer Targets" (not "Less")
Sorry - but you illustrate the problem. Scottish education is suffering because its recipients are not being taught little niceties such as the difference between possessive and plural forms. Nor are their teachers. It is time that literacy was restored. This is especially important in an age when our kids learn "internet speak" very early. As a Nation, we should want children and adults who can express themselves as articulately as they are able in writing and speech. I'm not advocating a return to pre-war grammar, just a maintenance of basic literacy in English and arithmetic. Please.
Posted by: Neil, Aberdeenshire on 1:33pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Two stories for the price of one, and neither matches the headline. So that's a headline and two separate stories all rolled up together.
Who says the Herald isn't good value?
Two stories for the price of one, and neither matches the headline. So that's a headline and two separate stories all rolled up together.
Who says the Herald isn't good value?
Posted by: sam, greenock on 3:58pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Wardog[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote: Wardog, It's not punishing children for govt failings - it's rewarding children for working hard! Also it helps to differentiate. Currently employers/universiti es etc cannot differentiate. Your proposal crates a situation where kids don't need to learn much to gain decent 'grades' and actually discourages learning. They're not quotas - but they would create youngsters capable of understanding rocket science. Your grasp is tenuous - but then again you probably got an 'A' at standard grade.[/quote] Dear oh Dear Your are one of these lunatics that annually berate kids achieving high grades and that it was 'tougher when i did it' Aye right! My proposal is to remove S grades and start teaching for the love of learning in S1, to avoid putting the kids into stasis for 2-3 years before they 'need' to learn for their highers.... all to achieve grades. Your proposals of a 'moving quota system' doesn't take into any account whatsoever individual talents between generations, indeed it would neutralise that which is plainly insane, something you seem to agree with by your reference to 30 year old O grades. Physics and indeed 'rocket science' has moved on massively from when you sat the tests, the whole of scientific theory has been fundamentally changed with moves in information technology, scope of history, scope for art & literature, biology, theoretical & laboratry physics....not to mention modern studies! How can you possibly equate what you sat back in the 1970's with what today's kids have to learn? Apologies if I sound a little infuriated, but I'm sick of older generations berating kids these days, you should maybe take a leaf out of Tony Ben's comments at the Scottish parliament this week. [italic] "Young people today are the first generation to know more than their parents."[/italic] The day's of simply book studying to get a grade are over. If you subscribe to any notion of the 'knowledge economy' you will know that 'book clever isn't clever enough' - children must be equipped with a thirst for learning, the tools for accessing information and the skills for problem solving and this must be sustained whatever grade they achieve in school. [bold]PS[/bold] Vince, please tell us what the 40% that [bold]'fail'[/bold] under your 'quota system' will be doing? Life doesn't end with a C Grade does it!?! [bold]PPS[/bold] [italic]And yes Vince, thanks for speculating, I did get good grades in school and at university and have since pursued a number of career paths in the last twenty years...... can't recall O grades or indeed standard grades being very important at university, seem to recall the hunger for knowledge and a good work ethic being paramount to both getting in, succeeding and then working well.[/italic] Can we assume that you are indeed a rocket scientist who is moonlighting as an S2 Assistant Teacher? [/quote] [quote]PS
Vince, please tell us what the 40% that 'fail' under your 'quota system' will be doing?
Life doesn't end with a C Grade does it!?![/quote]
They'll be off to fight in Iraq, which to a ceratin extent answers the second point.
[quote]PPS
....................
..........seem to recall the hunger for knowledge and a good work ethic being paramount to both getting in, succeeding and then working well.[/quote]
This will never catch on noo'adays
Wardog wrote:
Vincent-W wrote: Wardog, It's not punishing children for govt failings - it's rewarding children for working hard! Also it helps to differentiate. Currently employers/universiti es etc cannot differentiate. Your proposal crates a situation where kids don't need to learn much to gain decent 'grades' and actually discourages learning. They're not quotas - but they would create youngsters capable of understanding rocket science. Your grasp is tenuous - but then again you probably got an 'A' at standard grade.
Dear oh Dear Your are one of these lunatics that annually berate kids achieving high grades and that it was 'tougher when i did it' Aye right! My proposal is to remove S grades and start teaching for the love of learning in S1, to avoid putting the kids into stasis for 2-3 years before they 'need' to learn for their highers.... all to achieve grades. Your proposals of a 'moving quota system' doesn't take into any account whatsoever individual talents between generations, indeed it would neutralise that which is plainly insane, something you seem to agree with by your reference to 30 year old O grades. Physics and indeed 'rocket science' has moved on massively from when you sat the tests, the whole of scientific theory has been fundamentally changed with moves in information technology, scope of history, scope for art & literature, biology, theoretical & laboratry physics....not to mention modern studies! How can you possibly equate what you sat back in the 1970's with what today's kids have to learn? Apologies if I sound a little infuriated, but I'm sick of older generations berating kids these days, you should maybe take a leaf out of Tony Ben's comments at the Scottish parliament this week. "Young people today are the first generation to know more than their parents." The day's of simply book studying to get a grade are over. If you subscribe to any notion of the 'knowledge economy' you will know that 'book clever isn't clever enough' - children must be equipped with a thirst for learning, the tools for accessing information and the skills for problem solving and this must be sustained whatever grade they achieve in school. PS Vince, please tell us what the 40% that 'fail' under your 'quota system' will be doing? Life doesn't end with a C Grade does it!?! PPS And yes Vince, thanks for speculating, I did get good grades in school and at university and have since pursued a number of career paths in the last twenty years...... can't recall O grades or indeed standard grades being very important at university, seem to recall the hunger for knowledge and a good work ethic being paramount to both getting in, succeeding and then working well. Can we assume that you are indeed a rocket scientist who is moonlighting as an S2 Assistant Teacher?
PS
Vince, please tell us what the 40% that 'fail' under your 'quota system' will be doing?
Life doesn't end with a C Grade does it!?!
They'll be off to fight in Iraq, which to a ceratin extent answers the second point.
PPS
....................
..........seem to recall the hunger for knowledge and a good work ethic being paramount to both getting in, succeeding and then working well.
This will never catch on noo'adays
Posted by: Vincent-W on 3:58pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Wardog - read carefully:-
Firstly I do not berate kids and I don't make crass assumptions like you do. Kids are great, they are just ill served by idiots who don't give them what they need. Kids know that these 'qualifications' are pointless ask them - I do. I berate a system that tries to kid us on by giving a grade C kid a grade A - who are they trying to fool? No-one is taken in, because sooner or later that kid will get caught out. Better to give accurate grade that reflect ability then spend time looking for other areas of aptitude.
The underlying problem is that we only recognise academic success. There is no way of rewarding sporting, mechanical, problem solving, practical or any other skills or aptitudes. Therefore the system is designed to force non academic kids to get grades, which are dumbed down and meaningless.
A thirst for learning is crucial and the biggest issue is that our society now dubs those who thirst as 'nerds' - it's got b*gger all to do with the examination system. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's pr@ts like you with the 'everyone must pass' ideology that have corroded this desire for learning.
PS - being able to get a A at standard grade with little work is not encouraging a work ethic. Being told that unless you put some effort in you will fail does!
Davieboy - where's the evidence that we need more teachers? Many of teh teachers we have are quite capable of teaching to a high standard with classes of 25+. If the system would allow them to teach and not expect them to be clerks, disciplinarians, social workers and a dozen other non teaching requirements.
Wardog - read carefully:-
Firstly I do not berate kids and I don't make crass assumptions like you do. Kids are great, they are just ill served by idiots who don't give them what they need. Kids know that these 'qualifications' are pointless ask them - I do. I berate a system that tries to kid us on by giving a grade C kid a grade A - who are they trying to fool? No-one is taken in, because sooner or later that kid will get caught out. Better to give accurate grade that reflect ability then spend time looking for other areas of aptitude.
The underlying problem is that we only recognise academic success. There is no way of rewarding sporting, mechanical, problem solving, practical or any other skills or aptitudes. Therefore the system is designed to force non academic kids to get grades, which are dumbed down and meaningless.
A thirst for learning is crucial and the biggest issue is that our society now dubs those who thirst as 'nerds' - it's got b*gger all to do with the examination system. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's pr@ts like you with the 'everyone must pass' ideology that have corroded this desire for learning.
PS - being able to get a A at standard grade with little work is not encouraging a work ethic. Being told that unless you put some effort in you will fail does!
Davieboy - where's the evidence that we need more teachers? Many of teh teachers we have are quite capable of teaching to a high standard with classes of 25+. If the system would allow them to teach and not expect them to be clerks, disciplinarians, social workers and a dozen other non teaching requirements.
Posted by: Vincent-W on 4:01pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Wardog - what I had to learn for passing French and German 'O' should not have changed.
Wardog - what I had to learn for passing French and German 'O' should not have changed.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 4:40pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]subrosa[/bold] wrote:
Hopefully the new qualifications will be better presented. In the past I've had youngsters come to me for a job saying they had an E or an F in a subject and they thought they'd passed! It wasn't easy to convince them they had not.[/quote] Yes I agree, no one knows what these things really mean, and if indeed they mean anything very much.
I've seen applications where a lad has written that he has a "C" in "Inglush" (no joke) and one who had a "B" in French who didn't have a clue what "comment allez-vous" meant......even after I repeated it very slowly three times.
subrosa wrote:
Hopefully the new qualifications will be better presented. In the past I've had youngsters come to me for a job saying they had an E or an F in a subject and they thought they'd passed! It wasn't easy to convince them they had not.
Yes I agree, no one knows what these things really mean, and if indeed they mean anything very much.
I've seen applications where a lad has written that he has a "C" in "Inglush" (no joke) and one who had a "B" in French who didn't have a clue what "comment allez-vous" meant......even after I repeated it very slowly three times.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 4:42pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[bold]Less Targets more learning.[/bold] Wardog
Music to my ears.... not just about education either.
Less Targets more learning. Wardog
Music to my ears.... not just about education either.
Posted by: davieboy on 4:46pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Vincent,
I don't know in which local authority you work but I know for a fact that education budgets are being slashed across the country to pay for the freeze in council tax. It is well known that in many areas, retiring teachers are not being backfilled but are to be replaced annually by centrally funded NQT's.
The EIS in both Aberdeen & Renfrewshire have publically condemed the cuts. The EIS in Glasgow & Lanarkshire is thought to be considering the same.
In my school they are cutting number of classes next year in popular subjects because that would leave teachers in other subject areas with little to do. That way they (the LA) have less teachers in the popular subjects and fully utilise the teachers in the less popular subjects.
It makes sense to an accountant but to the pupils who lose out in their S3/S4 option choices it is horrendous.
Therefore, in order to put more slack / capacity into the system you need more teachers which costs more money which LA's cant afford because they've all signed up to the freeze on council tax.
If you think the situation is bad now, just wait till the powers that be try to introduce A Curriculm for Excellence & flexible learning.
I can hear it now "Sorry son you can't study ICT right now, were fully booked for the next 2 years, fancy trying Home Economics to tide you over?"
Vincent,
I don't know in which local authority you work but I know for a fact that education budgets are being slashed across the country to pay for the freeze in council tax. It is well known that in many areas, retiring teachers are not being backfilled but are to be replaced annually by centrally funded NQT's.
The EIS in both Aberdeen & Renfrewshire have publically condemed the cuts. The EIS in Glasgow & Lanarkshire is thought to be considering the same.
In my school they are cutting number of classes next year in popular subjects because that would leave teachers in other subject areas with little to do. That way they (the LA) have less teachers in the popular subjects and fully utilise the teachers in the less popular subjects.
It makes sense to an accountant but to the pupils who lose out in their S3/S4 option choices it is horrendous.
Therefore, in order to put more slack / capacity into the system you need more teachers which costs more money which LA's cant afford because they've all signed up to the freeze on council tax.
If you think the situation is bad now, just wait till the powers that be try to introduce A Curriculm for Excellence & flexible learning.
I can hear it now "Sorry son you can't study ICT right now, were fully booked for the next 2 years, fancy trying Home Economics to tide you over?"
Posted by: Vincent-W on 5:03pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Davie - believe or not some people don't work in th public sector!!!!!!!!
The EIS have been calling wolf for so long now it's unreal. They have little credibility. Many teachers I know have left the EIS because they feel that the EIS is unrepresentative of teachers views or else they only remain because of the protection offered against nutty parents.
The mismanagement of education is unbelieveable - middle managers seem to promoted on the basis that if they teach, and we can't sack 'em then we'd better promote them.
More and more cash is spent on education for less and less return.
The EIS harp on about small class sizes being the answer- where's the evidence?
Davie - believe or not some people don't work in th public sector!!!!!!!!
The EIS have been calling wolf for so long now it's unreal. They have little credibility. Many teachers I know have left the EIS because they feel that the EIS is unrepresentative of teachers views or else they only remain because of the protection offered against nutty parents.
The mismanagement of education is unbelieveable - middle managers seem to promoted on the basis that if they teach, and we can't sack 'em then we'd better promote them.
More and more cash is spent on education for less and less return.
The EIS harp on about small class sizes being the answer- where's the evidence?
Posted by: davieboy on 5:30pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Vincent (5.03),
I agree with everything that you say with regard to waste & the public sector, but I feel that you are missing my point.
The fact is that there has to be a certain amount of slack or excess capacity in order to cope with fluctuation in demand. It is like a hospital that has budgeted for an average of 20 patients beds to be available on any given day however there are circumstances when 20 beds will not be sufficient due to extentuatng circumstances such as in wintertime. Similarly in one year, many kids may want ot take History instead of Music, when the following year many will want to take Technical.
What is happening just now is that schools are budgeting to teach 20 in one subject, 40 in another subject & 30 another subject and if you cant get the subject you want tough because the LA will not fund extra teachers to meet the fluctuating demands of the pupils.
I was at a meeting last August when the subject of ACfE came up. I highlighted my concerns about kids being forced to take subjects they do not want to take. His words were "it is accepted that some pupils will have to be herded into certain subjects"
I was not the only one to be disappointed that pupils were being compared to farm animals.
Vincent (5.03),
I agree with everything that you say with regard to waste & the public sector, but I feel that you are missing my point.
The fact is that there has to be a certain amount of slack or excess capacity in order to cope with fluctuation in demand. It is like a hospital that has budgeted for an average of 20 patients beds to be available on any given day however there are circumstances when 20 beds will not be sufficient due to extentuatng circumstances such as in wintertime. Similarly in one year, many kids may want ot take History instead of Music, when the following year many will want to take Technical.
What is happening just now is that schools are budgeting to teach 20 in one subject, 40 in another subject & 30 another subject and if you cant get the subject you want tough because the LA will not fund extra teachers to meet the fluctuating demands of the pupils.
I was at a meeting last August when the subject of ACfE came up. I highlighted my concerns about kids being forced to take subjects they do not want to take. His words were "it is accepted that some pupils will have to be herded into certain subjects"
I was not the only one to be disappointed that pupils were being compared to farm animals.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 11:01pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote:
Wardog - read carefully:-
Firstly I do not berate kids and I don't make crass assumptions like you do. Kids are great, they are just ill served by idiots who don't give them what they need. Kids know that these 'qualifications' are pointless ask them - I do. I berate a system that tries to kid us on by giving a grade C kid a grade A - who are they trying to fool? No-one is taken in, because sooner or later that kid will get caught out. Better to give accurate grade that reflect ability then spend time looking for other areas of aptitude.
The underlying problem is that we only recognise academic success. There is no way of rewarding sporting, mechanical, problem solving, practical or any other skills or aptitudes. Therefore the system is designed to force non academic kids to get grades, which are dumbed down and meaningless.
A thirst for learning is crucial and the biggest issue is that our society now dubs those who thirst as 'nerds' - it's got b*gger all to do with the examination system. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's pr@ts like you with the 'everyone must pass' ideology that have corroded this desire for learning.
PS - being able to get a A at standard grade with little work is not encouraging a work ethic. Being told that unless you put some effort in you will fail does!
Davieboy - where's the evidence that we need more teachers? Many of teh teachers we have are quite capable of teaching to a high standard with classes of 25+. If the system would allow them to teach and not expect them to be clerks, disciplinarians, social workers and a dozen other non teaching requirements.[/quote]
Vincent your a bit of buffoon aren't you
Who are these kids getting 'caught out'?
[quote]There is no way of rewarding sporting, mechanical, problem solving, practical or any other skills or aptitudes[/quote]
Have you even looked at today's exam papers and the continual coursework submissions that kids need to do?
[quote]A thirst for learning is crucial and the biggest issue is that our society now dubs those who thirst as 'nerds'[/quote]
The above quote is better indication of your own experience than of any kids I know and teach, the bigger problem is that they have so many exams that's all they think about, they simply do stuff to 'pass' - not to learn.
[quote]In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's pr@ts like you with the 'everyone must pass' ideology that have corroded this desire for learning.[/quote]
Nowhere above have I used a phrase saying 'everyone must pass' - now your making things up to cover for your incredibly distorted view on this whole subject.
The rest of your post is utter nonsense, but then again so was the first part as seen above.
[bold]PS[/bold] 'prat' nice - are you a disgruntled university don?
Vincent-W wrote:
Wardog - read carefully:-
Firstly I do not berate kids and I don't make crass assumptions like you do. Kids are great, they are just ill served by idiots who don't give them what they need. Kids know that these 'qualifications' are pointless ask them - I do. I berate a system that tries to kid us on by giving a grade C kid a grade A - who are they trying to fool? No-one is taken in, because sooner or later that kid will get caught out. Better to give accurate grade that reflect ability then spend time looking for other areas of aptitude.
The underlying problem is that we only recognise academic success. There is no way of rewarding sporting, mechanical, problem solving, practical or any other skills or aptitudes. Therefore the system is designed to force non academic kids to get grades, which are dumbed down and meaningless.
A thirst for learning is crucial and the biggest issue is that our society now dubs those who thirst as 'nerds' - it's got b*gger all to do with the examination system. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's pr@ts like you with the 'everyone must pass' ideology that have corroded this desire for learning.
PS - being able to get a A at standard grade with little work is not encouraging a work ethic. Being told that unless you put some effort in you will fail does!
Davieboy - where's the evidence that we need more teachers? Many of teh teachers we have are quite capable of teaching to a high standard with classes of 25+. If the system would allow them to teach and not expect them to be clerks, disciplinarians, social workers and a dozen other non teaching requirements.
Vincent your a bit of buffoon aren't you
Who are these kids getting 'caught out'?
There is no way of rewarding sporting, mechanical, problem solving, practical or any other skills or aptitudes
Have you even looked at today's exam papers and the continual coursework submissions that kids need to do?
A thirst for learning is crucial and the biggest issue is that our society now dubs those who thirst as 'nerds'
The above quote is better indication of your own experience than of any kids I know and teach, the bigger problem is that they have so many exams that's all they think about, they simply do stuff to 'pass' - not to learn.
In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's pr@ts like you with the 'everyone must pass' ideology that have corroded this desire for learning.
Nowhere above have I used a phrase saying 'everyone must pass' - now your making things up to cover for your incredibly distorted view on this whole subject.
The rest of your post is utter nonsense, but then again so was the first part as seen above.
PS 'prat' nice - are you a disgruntled university don?
Posted by: Vincent-W on 12:15am Sun 23 Mar 08
Wardog - standard grades are an insult to everyone.
What subject do you teach?
BTW do you ever read PS reports?
Wardog - standard grades are an insult to everyone.
What subject do you teach?
BTW do you ever read PS reports?
Posted by: Vincent-W on 12:48am Sun 23 Mar 08
Wardog - clearly not English or any Science Subject - what do you teach? Hopefully not my kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!
Wardog - clearly not English or any Science Subject - what do you teach? Hopefully not my kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!
Posted by: Scott2006, Outside Glasgow on 1:04am Sun 23 Mar 08
The problem with qualifications in High School education is that a basic qualification in Reading, Writing & Arithmetic which should be treated as one subject that EVERY student should have to gain before moving on to a course of education which interested them.
Without a basic grounding perhaps established at S3 level.
The government has a responsibility to society and to pupils and their families to eradicate illiteracy and innumeracy. A qualification should be a true indicator of what comprehension the young person has of the subject in relation to what society has to gain from a raising of the basic standards in essential knowledge that every person should demand from a universal education system.
Some parts of secondary education fail as they leave the teacher following a curriculum that sees the curriculum as an end in itself. The schools that get higher number of pupils with a greater number of better grades are in essence teaching their subjects as preparation along various stages to getting an understanding that is close to a first year at university in terms of intellectual rigour.
Some young people have very limited horizons in certain parts of our cities and towns and would prefer to drop some subjects and be treated as young adults with a degree of respect and follow courses in City & Guilds level of real life vocational qualifications and not sociologically stratified misunderstood Standard Grades that stream ability groups and avoid challenging all but the top group. School is not a glorified child minding service.
The problem with qualifications in High School education is that a basic qualification in Reading, Writing & Arithmetic which should be treated as one subject that EVERY student should have to gain before moving on to a course of education which interested them.
Without a basic grounding perhaps established at S3 level.
The government has a responsibility to society and to pupils and their families to eradicate illiteracy and innumeracy. A qualification should be a true indicator of what comprehension the young person has of the subject in relation to what society has to gain from a raising of the basic standards in essential knowledge that every person should demand from a universal education system.
Some parts of secondary education fail as they leave the teacher following a curriculum that sees the curriculum as an end in itself. The schools that get higher number of pupils with a greater number of better grades are in essence teaching their subjects as preparation along various stages to getting an understanding that is close to a first year at university in terms of intellectual rigour.
Some young people have very limited horizons in certain parts of our cities and towns and would prefer to drop some subjects and be treated as young adults with a degree of respect and follow courses in City & Guilds level of real life vocational qualifications and not sociologically stratified misunderstood Standard Grades that stream ability groups and avoid challenging all but the top group. School is not a glorified child minding service.
Posted by: Vincent-W on 1:25am Sun 23 Mar 08
Scott20006 - got it in one - the current system is totally academic biased - lots of teachers (eg - Wardog) don't geddit.
Scott20006 - got it in one - the current system is totally academic biased - lots of teachers (eg - Wardog) don't geddit.
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 1:40am Sun 23 Mar 08
Another change for the better. Mein Gott whits happening to my taxes. Any clever teachers oot there to explain! Please!![bold]bold[/bold]
Another change for the better. Mein Gott whits happening to my taxes. Any clever teachers oot there to explain! Please!!
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 8:57am Sun 23 Mar 08
It does not really matter what you call the exams they will continue to be inappropriate until the whole ethos behind the education system has changed.
PC has dictates that “all are equal” therefore all should be given the same opportunities and follow the same path. This philosophy is flawed as we are not all the same, we all have different abilities and talents and the education system should be structured to discover what these are and to foster them rather than forcing everyone into a “one-size-fits-all” academically orientated “sausage factory”.
You cannot expect someone with a below average intelligence to shine academically but that is what is demanded by the current philosophy. This is the root cause behind the apparent “dumbing-down” of academic standards.
PC dictates that we are all capable of becoming “rocket scientists” when the reality is that a significant section of society are born with below average intelligence and cannot cope with a system that is solely focused on academic achievement.
That is non-PC but it is still fact.
It does not really matter what you call the exams they will continue to be inappropriate until the whole ethos behind the education system has changed.
PC has dictates that “all are equal” therefore all should be given the same opportunities and follow the same path. This philosophy is flawed as we are not all the same, we all have different abilities and talents and the education system should be structured to discover what these are and to foster them rather than forcing everyone into a “one-size-fits-all” academically orientated “sausage factory”.
You cannot expect someone with a below average intelligence to shine academically but that is what is demanded by the current philosophy. This is the root cause behind the apparent “dumbing-down” of academic standards.
PC dictates that we are all capable of becoming “rocket scientists” when the reality is that a significant section of society are born with below average intelligence and cannot cope with a system that is solely focused on academic achievement.
That is non-PC but it is still fact.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:41am Sun 23 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote:
Wardog - clearly not English or any Science Subject - what do you teach? Hopefully not my kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!![/quote]
You best calm down Vincey, I don't want you getting yourself worked up into a lather over your inane rantings.
I didn't say that I taught secondary school pupils.
Your bitter rantings seem to stem from some misplaced personal opinion that you were somehow better taught than today's kids.... from you attitudes displayed on these boards that seems unlikely......
As I've already mentioned above, I'm certainly not defending Standard Grades, but your 'back to basics' call is ludicrous.....
[bold]Your proposal was for 'quotas' and you haven't yet specified what the 40% who don't achieve your 'cut' do?[/bold]
[bold]You haven't told us all who are these kids getting 'caught out'?[/bold]
[bold]Where is your proof that standard grades don't cover problem solving?[/bold]
Can I suggest that you maybe start to get more involved with your local school, over your 'helpful' advice to try and change things, maybe setup and run a night school for internet posters to help them avoid the predicament you find yourself in.......
It would beat carping from the sidelines.
For info, the current standard grades offered by the SQA are listed below, the old Scotvec which was more vocational were re-badged as National Units and are still available.
[bold]Current SQA Standard Grades[/bold]
Accounting and Finance
Administration
Art and Design
Biology
Business Management
Chemistry
Classical Greek
Classical Studies
Computing Studies
Contemporary Social Studies
Craft and Design
Drama
Economics
English
French
Gaelic (Learners)
Gàidhlig
Geography
German
Graphic Communication
History
Home Economics
Italian
Latin
Mathematics
Modern Studies
Music
Physical Education
Physics
Religious Studies
Russian
Science
Social and Vocational Skills
Spanish
Technological Studies
Urdu
PS I've got it, your an ex English Teacher aren't you.....
[italic]Did I have you in S2?[/italic]
Vincent-W wrote:
Wardog - clearly not English or any Science Subject - what do you teach? Hopefully not my kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!
You best calm down Vincey, I don't want you getting yourself worked up into a lather over your inane rantings.
I didn't say that I taught secondary school pupils.
Your bitter rantings seem to stem from some misplaced personal opinion that you were somehow better taught than today's kids.... from you attitudes displayed on these boards that seems unlikely......
As I've already mentioned above, I'm certainly not defending Standard Grades, but your 'back to basics' call is ludicrous.....
Your proposal was for 'quotas' and you haven't yet specified what the 40% who don't achieve your 'cut' do?
You haven't told us all who are these kids getting 'caught out'?
Where is your proof that standard grades don't cover problem solving?
Can I suggest that you maybe start to get more involved with your local school, over your 'helpful' advice to try and change things, maybe setup and run a night school for internet posters to help them avoid the predicament you find yourself in.......
It would beat carping from the sidelines.
For info, the current standard grades offered by the SQA are listed below, the old Scotvec which was more vocational were re-badged as National Units and are still available.
Current SQA Standard Grades
Accounting and Finance
Administration
Art and Design
Biology
Business Management
Chemistry
Classical Greek
Classical Studies
Computing Studies
Contemporary Social Studies
Craft and Design
Drama
Economics
English
French
Gaelic (Learners)
Gàidhlig
Geography
German
Graphic Communication
History
Home Economics
Italian
Latin
Mathematics
Modern Studies
Music
Physical Education
Physics
Religious Studies
Russian
Science
Social and Vocational Skills
Spanish
Technological Studies
Urdu
PS I've got it, your an ex English Teacher aren't you.....
Did I have you in S2?
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:44am Sun 23 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote:
Scott20006 - got it in one - the current system is totally academic biased - lots of teachers (eg - Wardog) don't geddit.[/quote]
Funny that because I also whole heartedly agree with what Scot20006 says in his eloquent post......
That's not however what you were saying Vincent, reread your initial posts and try engaging your brain before you post in future.
Vincent-W wrote:
Scott20006 - got it in one - the current system is totally academic biased - lots of teachers (eg - Wardog) don't geddit.
Funny that because I also whole heartedly agree with what Scot20006 says in his eloquent post......
That's not however what you were saying Vincent, reread your initial posts and try engaging your brain before you post in future.
Posted by: Vincent-W on 5:08pm Sun 23 Mar 08
Wardog - I've 4 children, 40% of my friends are teachers, I run after school clubs, coach sport to children, I'm chair of the school association and organise and run out of school teaching. What more can I do? I don't think I can be classed as 'carping from the sidelines'.
You make far too many assumptions - and I'm still glad you don't teach my kids.
Wardog - I've 4 children, 40% of my friends are teachers, I run after school clubs, coach sport to children, I'm chair of the school association and organise and run out of school teaching. What more can I do? I don't think I can be classed as 'carping from the sidelines'.
You make far too many assumptions - and I'm still glad you don't teach my kids.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 8:17pm Sun 23 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote:
Wardog - I've 4 children, 40% of my friends are teachers, I run after school clubs, coach sport to children, I'm chair of the school association and organise and run out of school teaching. What more can I do? I don't think I can be classed as 'carping from the sidelines'.
You make far too many assumptions - and I'm still glad you don't teach my kids.[/quote]
Vincent, that's good to hear that your very involved with you local community and specifically the youth activities.
Say hello to your 4 out of 10 friends that are teachers.
I think we actually agree on much
My main objection to your earlier post was simply the [bold]quota[/bold] idea that you started of with. You have to accept that this is a abd idea, limiting the difference between generations/years is a bad move and stifles talent by refusing excellence to those that might be on the borderline of being exceptional.
Vocational Training does need to be enhanced but it really isn't a national crisis as often portrayed. The vast majority of kids are going on to University and/or good skilled jobs from High School.
The sky hasn't fallen in and indeed Scotland has the highest employment levels since records began.
There will always be a number who you rightly note won't shine academically but we need to be careful there, there are very few jobs these days that do not require some element of intellectual application....... and more importantly a willingness to learn for learning's sake and to cretaiuvely approach life long leanring, not just meet targets/exams in order to pass go and collect their pay.
Moaning about standard grades isn't going to solve anything unless a wholesale review of the education system is undertaken and the testing for targets philosophy is moved on to one which really looks at relative achievement and not competition between children.
Universities and Employers are well aware of the difference in calibre amongst young people and often grades go nowhere near telling the full story of how good an employee/candidate a person will be.
There is a 'target culture' that has came about because of testing that is actually damaging in so far as the kids know they only need to pass without taking the time to really explore and learn.
It is this aspect that should be focussed on, not wasted time tweaking the exam system to create more grade C's.
Vincent-W wrote:
Wardog - I've 4 children, 40% of my friends are teachers, I run after school clubs, coach sport to children, I'm chair of the school association and organise and run out of school teaching. What more can I do? I don't think I can be classed as 'carping from the sidelines'.
You make far too many assumptions - and I'm still glad you don't teach my kids.
Vincent, that's good to hear that your very involved with you local community and specifically the youth activities.
Say hello to your 4 out of 10 friends that are teachers.
I think we actually agree on much
My main objection to your earlier post was simply the
quota idea that you started of with. You have to accept that this is a abd idea, limiting the difference between generations/years is a bad move and stifles talent by refusing excellence to those that might be on the borderline of being exceptional.
Vocational Training does need to be enhanced but it really isn't a national crisis as often portrayed. The vast majority of kids are going on to University and/or good skilled jobs from High School.
The sky hasn't fallen in and indeed Scotland has the highest employment levels since records began.
There will always be a number who you rightly note won't shine academically but we need to be careful there, there are very few jobs these days that do not require some element of intellectual application....... and more importantly a willingness to learn for learning's sake and to cretaiuvely approach life long leanring, not just meet targets/exams in order to pass go and collect their pay.
Moaning about standard grades isn't going to solve anything unless a wholesale review of the education system is undertaken and the testing for targets philosophy is moved on to one which really looks at relative achievement and not competition between children.
Universities and Employers are well aware of the difference in calibre amongst young people and often grades go nowhere near telling the full story of how good an employee/candidate a person will be.
There is a 'target culture' that has came about because of testing that is actually damaging in so far as the kids know they only need to pass without taking the time to really explore and learn.
It is this aspect that should be focussed on, not wasted time tweaking the exam system to create more grade C's.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 8:19pm Sun 23 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vincent-W[/bold] wrote:
Wardog - I've 4 children, 40% of my friends are teachers, I run after school clubs, coach sport to children, I'm chair of the school association and organise and run out of school teaching. What more can I do? I don't think I can be classed as 'carping from the sidelines'.
You make far too many assumptions - and I'm still glad you don't teach my kids.[/quote]
[bold]PS[/bold] Don't worry I won't be teaching yer kids
[italic]I'm sure your filling their heads with lots of useful information[/italic]
Vincent-W wrote:
Wardog - I've 4 children, 40% of my friends are teachers, I run after school clubs, coach sport to children, I'm chair of the school association and organise and run out of school teaching. What more can I do? I don't think I can be classed as 'carping from the sidelines'.
You make far too many assumptions - and I'm still glad you don't teach my kids.
PS Don't worry I won't be teaching yer kids
I'm sure your filling their heads with lots of useful information Posted by: Vincent-W on 10:02pm Sun 23 Mar 08
I know that idea is unpopular with many but think on - if we award a child a prize for low level achievement then we undermine the kid who works hard and gets the same prize. Also the kid with the chocolate gong knows full well what it is - a sop the the fools who think that is raising attainment. It's like awarding gold medals to all the runners in a race - the runners know who won and who lost, but the gold medal is worthless. The guy who came last has to come to terms with the idea that he either has to work harder or try something else.
In this quest for raising attainment we will soon have kids in P1 at level F.
The point is don't look at it as a quota - look at it as a way of differentiating. My pals at school who got grade D/E at 'O' level weren't failures, they all went on to get worthwhile jobs - but they weren't lied to.
My oldest two kids went to secondary school and did nothing for two years - then sat Mickey Mouse standard grades - four years wasted. Their **** for knowledge was very nearly destroyed by going to school to learn next to nothing. In the meantime there are smart, bright kids in their classes who are sporty but there is little meaningful competitive sport in school, there are kids who should be learning a trade but there is no decent standard of teaching/assessment etc etc.
As an employer, the general standard of Scottish kids coming to the factory gates is abysmal - they are virtually unemployable. And before you deride factory work (just in case you were) it offers a decent wage, good conditions and the opportunity for advancement. But they've been told that factory work is demeaning for years. Funny how the Poles come in droves to enjoy good wages! Earning an honest living should never be portrayed as demeaning.
The old tripartite system had a lot going for it - unfortunately it was never funded properly - only the Grammar Schools got resourced properly, only academic achievement was really recognized. Even in the sporting field my Grammar School wiped the floor with the local Secondary Moderns. Because they were never properly valued or resourced.
So what to educationalist do? They dumb down academic exams while still failing to properly provide for other talents.
I know that idea is unpopular with many but think on - if we award a child a prize for low level achievement then we undermine the kid who works hard and gets the same prize. Also the kid with the chocolate gong knows full well what it is - a sop the the fools who think that is raising attainment. It's like awarding gold medals to all the runners in a race - the runners know who won and who lost, but the gold medal is worthless. The guy who came last has to come to terms with the idea that he either has to work harder or try something else.
In this quest for raising attainment we will soon have kids in P1 at level F.
The point is don't look at it as a quota - look at it as a way of differentiating. My pals at school who got grade D/E at 'O' level weren't failures, they all went on to get worthwhile jobs - but they weren't lied to.
My oldest two kids went to secondary school and did nothing for two years - then sat Mickey Mouse standard grades - four years wasted. Their **** for knowledge was very nearly destroyed by going to school to learn next to nothing. In the meantime there are smart, bright kids in their classes who are sporty but there is little meaningful competitive sport in school, there are kids who should be learning a trade but there is no decent standard of teaching/assessment etc etc.
As an employer, the general standard of Scottish kids coming to the factory gates is abysmal - they are virtually unemployable. And before you deride factory work (just in case you were) it offers a decent wage, good conditions and the opportunity for advancement. But they've been told that factory work is demeaning for years. Funny how the Poles come in droves to enjoy good wages! Earning an honest living should never be portrayed as demeaning.
The old tripartite system had a lot going for it - unfortunately it was never funded properly - only the Grammar Schools got resourced properly, only academic achievement was really recognized. Even in the sporting field my Grammar School wiped the floor with the local Secondary Moderns. Because they were never properly valued or resourced.
So what to educationalist do? They dumb down academic exams while still failing to properly provide for other talents.
Posted by: Vincent-W on 10:03pm Sun 23 Mar 08
the **** was L U S T - apparently this is deemed as inappropriate language nowadays!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the **** was L U S T - apparently this is deemed as inappropriate language nowadays!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Paul, Paisley on 5:38am Mon 24 Mar 08
I'm a secondary teacher and was a PT for 17 years. Have I read a PS report? No. I always ask but SMT/Guidance like the power of 'knowing' more than us with a 'well it's all mixed ability anyway' aside.
I am interested in the 'can't teach and so are made middle managers' quote - the main qualification for being a senior manager these days seems to be,
1. Ignore fundamental learning.
2. Learn all the latest acronyms and spin from policy documents.
3. Agree with the DHT/HT/LA on everything.
4. Be emotionally unintelligent in the application of policy for policy's sake.
Be afraid, be very afraid!
I'm a secondary teacher and was a PT for 17 years. Have I read a PS report? No. I always ask but SMT/Guidance like the power of 'knowing' more than us with a 'well it's all mixed ability anyway' aside.
I am interested in the 'can't teach and so are made middle managers' quote - the main qualification for being a senior manager these days seems to be,
1. Ignore fundamental learning.
2. Learn all the latest acronyms and spin from policy documents.
3. Agree with the DHT/HT/LA on everything.
4. Be emotionally unintelligent in the application of policy for policy's sake.
Be afraid, be very afraid!
Posted by: Paul, Paisley on 5:38am Mon 24 Mar 08
I'm a secondary teacher and was a PT for 17 years. Have I read a PS report? No. I always ask but SMT/Guidance like the power of 'knowing' more than us with a 'well it's all mixed ability anyway' aside.
I am interested in the 'can't teach and so are made middle managers' quote - the main qualification for being a senior manager these days seems to be,
1. Ignore fundamental learning.
2. Learn all the latest acronyms and spin from policy documents.
3. Agree with the DHT/HT/LA on everything.
4. Be emotionally unintelligent in the application of policy for policy's sake.
Be afraid, be very afraid!
I'm a secondary teacher and was a PT for 17 years. Have I read a PS report? No. I always ask but SMT/Guidance like the power of 'knowing' more than us with a 'well it's all mixed ability anyway' aside.
I am interested in the 'can't teach and so are made middle managers' quote - the main qualification for being a senior manager these days seems to be,
1. Ignore fundamental learning.
2. Learn all the latest acronyms and spin from policy documents.
3. Agree with the DHT/HT/LA on everything.
4. Be emotionally unintelligent in the application of policy for policy's sake.
Be afraid, be very afraid!
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