Poll piles on pressure for referendum on EU treaty
Pressure is building on the government ahead of this week's Commons vote on whether there should be a
referendum on Europe, after a huge polling exercise across Britain showed overwhelming backing for the public's right to have a say.
Campaigners demanding a referendum on the controversial Lisbon Treaty, on the grounds that it is effectively a constitutional change, staged their referendum exercise in 10 marginal Labour and Liberal Democrat constituencies across the UK, including the East Renfrewshire seat of Europe Minister Jim Murphy.
The I Want a Referendum Campaign' (IWAR) sent out 420,791 ballot papers to all those on the latest publicly available section of the electoral roll. A total of 152,520 - 36% - were returned, of which 133,251 - 88% - were in favour of a referendum.
In East Renfrewshire, 31% of those who received ballot papers returned them, almost 21,000 people voted with 85% in favour of a referendum.
But Mr Murphy told the BBC Politics show yesterday: "It's clear that less than one in six people in East Renfrewshire voted for a referendum. The Conservative Party spent £50,000 so it was almost £5 for every person who returned a ballot paper."
The local campaign in the area was called East Renfrewshire EU Choice and its spokesman, Richard Cooke, insisted the Tories did not put up the money for the exercise.
He said he was "stunned to hear a government minister tell such outright lies", saying the Tories did not put in a single penny to the campaign and the figure for those in favour of a referendum was double what Mr Murphy claimed.
"The reality is that an overwhelming majority of people on a poll of this size have said they want a referendum and if they won't give us that then to reject this treaty."
Angus Robertson, leader of the SNP at Westminster, said last night: "This is a result for democracy. It clearly demonstrates that public opinion backs a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. The SNP MPs will vote this week at Westminster for a referendum. This increases the pressure on the Labour government to let the people have their say."
Labour Euro-rebel Kate Hoey predicted that many Labour and LibDem MPs would be prepared to defy their party whips and vote for a referendum in the Commons on Wednesday.
IWAR campaign chairman Derek Scott, a former economic adviser to Tony Blair, called it "a magnificent turnout and a great result."
He said that Labour and the LibDems should now honour their election manifesto promises to hold a referendum on the EU constitution, which, campaigners say, is broadly the same as the new treaty.
Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague said the results clearly showed the public support for a referendum. "Despite the attempts of the government to rubbish this exercise, and the absence of national publicity, the turnout of voters has been higher than in some European elections and well in line with local elections," he said.
"It is time for Gordon Brown and Nick Clegg to listen to the people and keep their promise, rather than continue with the giant act of dishonesty in which they are now engaged."
© All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without
permission is prohibited.
Posted by: Oscar on 12:05am Mon 3 Mar 08
A referendum, now there's a good idea. Now what else could we have a referendum on?
A referendum, now there's a good idea. Now what else could we have a referendum on?
Posted by: alicmurray, Glasgow on 12:11am Mon 3 Mar 08
Gordon Brown will soon overtake Mrs Thatcher as the most hated Prime Minister Scotland has ever had.
Gordon Brown will soon overtake Mrs Thatcher as the most hated Prime Minister Scotland has ever had.
Posted by: Alex on 12:26am Mon 3 Mar 08
alicmurray
Your a bit behind the times; HE'S already the most hated man since Sillars of the Highland clearances
alicmurray
Your a bit behind the times; HE'S already the most hated man since Sillars of the Highland clearances
Posted by: redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 12:41am Mon 3 Mar 08
Clegg says no, but what does Nicol say? Is there a difference of opinion in lib dem ranks between westminster and Edinburgh?
From a Scottish angle, the perception that one can consider going in and out of the EU via a democratic vote sends a precedent into the minds of Scottish voters. Labour need to avoid that psyche entering the process.
If Scottish voters start to believe that it is their decision what happens, not some mandarin in Westminster or Brussels, that really would change the dynamics.
On balance the biggest effect of joining the EU in the last 10 years is a slightly improved economic position and population growth brought about by hard working Poles coming into Scotland and reasonably successfully managing to assimilate.
The negatives of people arriving from other east european countries without the same work ethic and increased criminal actions seems to have been more of an issue further south, as these outcomes would have skewed opinion differently.
Clegg says no, but what does Nicol say? Is there a difference of opinion in lib dem ranks between westminster and Edinburgh?
From a Scottish angle, the perception that one can consider going in and out of the EU via a democratic vote sends a precedent into the minds of Scottish voters. Labour need to avoid that psyche entering the process.
If Scottish voters start to believe that it is their decision what happens, not some mandarin in Westminster or Brussels, that really would change the dynamics.
On balance the biggest effect of joining the EU in the last 10 years is a slightly improved economic position and population growth brought about by hard working Poles coming into Scotland and reasonably successfully managing to assimilate.
The negatives of people arriving from other east european countries without the same work ethic and increased criminal actions seems to have been more of an issue further south, as these outcomes would have skewed opinion differently.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 1:03am Mon 3 Mar 08
redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 12:41am today writes:
[quote]From a Scottish angle, the perception that one can consider going in and out of the EU via a democratic vote sends a precedent into the minds of Scottish voters. Labour need to avoid that psyche entering the process.
If Scottish voters start to believe that it is their decision what happens, not some mandarin in Westminster or Brussels, that really would change the dynamics.[/quote]
Cannae hiv the wee folks thinkin they actually hiv a say in this - naw!
redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 12:41am today writes:
From a Scottish angle, the perception that one can consider going in and out of the EU via a democratic vote sends a precedent into the minds of Scottish voters. Labour need to avoid that psyche entering the process.
If Scottish voters start to believe that it is their decision what happens, not some mandarin in Westminster or Brussels, that really would change the dynamics.
Cannae hiv the wee folks thinkin they actually hiv a say in this - naw!
Posted by: John F on 1:13am Mon 3 Mar 08
"We will put it - the EU Constitution - to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'Yes' vote." - Labour Party manifesto, May 2005
"The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto." - Gordon Brown,June 24, 2007
What is there to stop the Scottish Government holding an advisory plebiscite on the issue in Scotland?
"We will put it - the EU Constitution - to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'Yes' vote." - Labour Party manifesto, May 2005
"The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto." - Gordon Brown,June 24, 2007
What is there to stop the Scottish Government holding an advisory plebiscite on the issue in Scotland?
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 1:30am Mon 3 Mar 08
[quote]HE'S already the most hated man since Sillars of the Highland clearances[/quote]-Alex on 12:26am today
Jim Sillars has made many mistakes but he wasn't around at the Highland clearances. Your man, I think, is Patrick SEllars.
HE'S already the most hated man since Sillars of the Highland clearances
-Alex on 12:26am today
Jim Sillars has made many mistakes but he wasn't around at the Highland clearances. Your man, I think, is Patrick SEllars.
Posted by: Vespa, Clacks on 1:56am Mon 3 Mar 08
Have the 2 referenda on the same day - easy peasy.
I presume the tories think the "little englander" vote will reject the treaty - I dont think voters are that stupid.
A referendum on independence would stop all the wasted energy and hot air that would othewise be expended over the next 4 years
Have the 2 referenda on the same day - easy peasy.
I presume the tories think the "little englander" vote will reject the treaty - I dont think voters are that stupid.
A referendum on independence would stop all the wasted energy and hot air that would othewise be expended over the next 4 years
Posted by: KampungHighlander, Jakarta on 4:37am Mon 3 Mar 08
I would prefer if the choices available in the referendum was signing on to the Lisbon Treaty or withdrawing from the EU as proposed by Nick Clegg. If Gordon relents and allows the referendum and that in fact is what the choice is to try and bolster support for the Lisbon Treaty. What happens if England rejects it and Scotland supports it.
Interesting days ahead.
I would prefer if the choices available in the referendum was signing on to the Lisbon Treaty or withdrawing from the EU as proposed by Nick Clegg. If Gordon relents and allows the referendum and that in fact is what the choice is to try and bolster support for the Lisbon Treaty. What happens if England rejects it and Scotland supports it.
Interesting days ahead.
Posted by: KampungHighlander, Jakarta on 4:50am Mon 3 Mar 08
21, 000 people in East Renfrewshire bothered to vote which was more than the 20,815 who voted for Mr. Murphy in the last election. If Mr. Murphy feels that this is to small a mandate what does that say about his own mandate as MP.
21, 000 people in East Renfrewshire bothered to vote which was more than the 20,815 who voted for Mr. Murphy in the last election. If Mr. Murphy feels that this is to small a mandate what does that say about his own mandate as MP.
Posted by: Carronade, Falkirk on 6:51am Mon 3 Mar 08
and, of course, KampungHighlander, ballot papers could only be sent to those on the 'public' part of the Electoral Register, said to be (much?) less than half of the full Register.
and, of course, KampungHighlander, ballot papers could only be sent to those on the 'public' part of the Electoral Register, said to be (much?) less than half of the full Register.
Posted by: David B, Larkhall on 7:14am Mon 3 Mar 08
While the Europe issue rumbles on the Conservative party has the problems of a vocal wing which is skeptical, a competitor party in UKIP, and a flight of donor finance from skeptics who would likely give them the money if the matter were finally resolved. So it is most likely the Labour party prefers this issue not to be resolved because it is so divisive for the Tories. As we know party is way more important than country, and only second to self interest.
Now if we could have a referendum we should make it final. Either we are in this project or we are not. We need an extensive impartial debate on the media, and free opinions from all politicians irrespective of party whip. Its time the relationship with Europe was finally resolved.
It might be a good idea too if the vote was compulsory and if the EU Commission kept out of meddling in the matter.
But at the end of the exercise can we please whole heartedly embrace the decision?
While the Europe issue rumbles on the Conservative party has the problems of a vocal wing which is skeptical, a competitor party in UKIP, and a flight of donor finance from skeptics who would likely give them the money if the matter were finally resolved. So it is most likely the Labour party prefers this issue not to be resolved because it is so divisive for the Tories. As we know party is way more important than country, and only second to self interest.
Now if we could have a referendum we should make it final. Either we are in this project or we are not. We need an extensive impartial debate on the media, and free opinions from all politicians irrespective of party whip. Its time the relationship with Europe was finally resolved.
It might be a good idea too if the vote was compulsory and if the EU Commission kept out of meddling in the matter.
But at the end of the exercise can we please whole heartedly embrace the decision?
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 8:57am Mon 3 Mar 08
#Dave B.
Subtle, very subtle.
#Dave B.
Subtle, very subtle.
Posted by: The X Factor, Glasgow on 10:58am Mon 3 Mar 08
I wouldn't have a referendum because people havent a clue about the issues and they are not bright enough to understand even when they are explained. The far right want to bounce us out of Europe and Dave B is right, keeps the Tories divided.
I wouldn't have a referendum because people havent a clue about the issues and they are not bright enough to understand even when they are explained. The far right want to bounce us out of Europe and Dave B is right, keeps the Tories divided.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 12:38pm Mon 3 Mar 08
It's certainly frightening that the future could be decided by people voting on a treaty which, not only have they not read, but don't even start to understnd the basic concepts of.
Perhaps voting in a referendum should be restricted to those who can prove that they have read the treaty, and can answer some simple questions on it.
Radical perhaps, but it would stop votes being cast on the basis of rubbish spouted by people on both sides of the argument.
It's certainly frightening that the future could be decided by people voting on a treaty which, not only have they not read, but don't even start to understnd the basic concepts of.
Perhaps voting in a referendum should be restricted to those who can prove that they have read the treaty, and can answer some simple questions on it.
Radical perhaps, but it would stop votes being cast on the basis of rubbish spouted by people on both sides of the argument.
Posted by: ellsbells, renfrewshire on 1:44pm Mon 3 Mar 08
wonder what the outcome would be if the poll had taken place in North Glasgow for instance?
wonder what the outcome would be if the poll had taken place in North Glasgow for instance?
Posted by: ellsbells, renfrewshire on 1:44pm Mon 3 Mar 08
wonder what the outcome would be if the poll had taken place in North Glasgow for instance?
wonder what the outcome would be if the poll had taken place in North Glasgow for instance?
Posted by: James Wilkie on 2:06pm Mon 3 Mar 08
It is a fundamental error to equate "Europe" with the European Union, which is only one of a number of major European organisations. By leaving the EU we would in no way be leaving Europe, but only one single, highly dubious political project. All the economic advantages of the EU can be obtained through membership of the European Economic Area (EEA), which includes all of the EU members as well as other non-members. That is the status of Norway and several other states that are enjoying far greater prosperity than Scotland.
The political EU is already dangerously undemocratic, a situation that will be made even worse if the Lisbon treaty is ever put into effect. That treaty will extend the EU's powers to cover the 20% or so of total legislation that still remains with national parliaments. In effect it abolishes national parliaments as democratic decision makers and reduces them to rubber stamping decisions made by the unelected legislators in Brussels.
This is quite clearly a drastic inroad into our entire democratic system that has developed over centuries. it changes the entire nature of the relationship between the people and their elected representatives, and for that reason the latter are in no way empowered to approve it on their own without reference to the higher constitutional authority -the people, represented by a qualified and registered electorate. That referendum must be held.
It is a fundamental error to equate "Europe" with the European Union, which is only one of a number of major European organisations. By leaving the EU we would in no way be leaving Europe, but only one single, highly dubious political project. All the economic advantages of the EU can be obtained through membership of the European Economic Area (EEA), which includes all of the EU members as well as other non-members. That is the status of Norway and several other states that are enjoying far greater prosperity than Scotland.
The political EU is already dangerously undemocratic, a situation that will be made even worse if the Lisbon treaty is ever put into effect. That treaty will extend the EU's powers to cover the 20% or so of total legislation that still remains with national parliaments. In effect it abolishes national parliaments as democratic decision makers and reduces them to rubber stamping decisions made by the unelected legislators in Brussels.
This is quite clearly a drastic inroad into our entire democratic system that has developed over centuries. it changes the entire nature of the relationship between the people and their elected representatives, and for that reason the latter are in no way empowered to approve it on their own without reference to the higher constitutional authority -the people, represented by a qualified and registered electorate. That referendum must be held.
Posted by: JohnM, Perth on 2:20pm Mon 3 Mar 08
Still, since jobs in the EU seem to be the terminus for Labour's failed polticians, Gordon must be lining himself up for his.
We need to tell them where to get off.
Still, since jobs in the EU seem to be the terminus for Labour's failed polticians, Gordon must be lining himself up for his.
We need to tell them where to get off.
Posted by: OHO, Glasgow on 5:49pm Mon 3 Mar 08
As long as the vast majority of people get their opinion on the EU from the Sun and the Mail and the Record, there is no way that there should be a referendum. I don't want to live in a country where Rupert Murdoch dictates decisions. We elect the MPs and MSPs to take an informed view on this.
As long as the vast majority of people get their opinion on the EU from the Sun and the Mail and the Record, there is no way that there should be a referendum. I don't want to live in a country where Rupert Murdoch dictates decisions. We elect the MPs and MSPs to take an informed view on this.
Posted by: subrosa on 6:00pm Mon 3 Mar 08
The more I read about the EU the more I think we should get out and behave like Switzerland etc.
The more I read about the EU the more I think we should get out and behave like Switzerland etc.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:37pm Mon 3 Mar 08
But you still need to follow their rules if you wnt trade benefits.
We need independence first. Then we can decide.
But you still need to follow their rules if you wnt trade benefits.
We need independence first. Then we can decide.
Posted by: subrosa on 11:31pm Mon 3 Mar 08
Yes indeed Strathturret but still I think being on the outside is the better option.
Yes indeed Strathturret but still I think being on the outside is the better option.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 11:31pm Mon 3 Mar 08
The argument that the Norwegian Prime Minister made when she headed the "Yes" campaign was that if they stayed out, they would have to conform to all the rules, they just wouldn't have a voice in deciding all these rules.
Certainly true that Iceland is the most developed country in the world and it is outside the Union, but the Denmark, Finland and Sweden are wonderful places to live and they are inside it.
It's difficult to know what is best; I've always gone along with it warts and all, because Thatcher hated it so much. If she hates it it must be good for ordinary people like me whom she held in such disdain. She called it socialism by the back door... and as we never get any round the front from the blue or red Tories.......
Although Britain has been a net contributor to the EU, I think that Scotland has been a net benefactor.
And yes, I agree that it's very dodgy to let readers of the Sun, Retard, Mirror and Star, make decisions on our part.
Perhaps, if these Westminster MPs could tear themselves away from filling in their expense forms, and get their snouts out of the trough, they might read the treaty on our behalf?
OK. Fat chance.
The argument that the Norwegian Prime Minister made when she headed the "Yes" campaign was that if they stayed out, they would have to conform to all the rules, they just wouldn't have a voice in deciding all these rules.
Certainly true that Iceland is the most developed country in the world and it is outside the Union, but the Denmark, Finland and Sweden are wonderful places to live and they are inside it.
It's difficult to know what is best; I've always gone along with it warts and all, because Thatcher hated it so much. If she hates it it must be good for ordinary people like me whom she held in such disdain. She called it socialism by the back door... and as we never get any round the front from the blue or red Tories.......
Although Britain has been a net contributor to the EU, I think that Scotland has been a net benefactor.
And yes, I agree that it's very dodgy to let readers of the Sun, Retard, Mirror and Star, make decisions on our part.
Perhaps, if these Westminster MPs could tear themselves away from filling in their expense forms, and get their snouts out of the trough, they might read the treaty on our behalf?
OK. Fat chance.
Posted by: preddo53, leeds on 1:08pm Tue 4 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Vespa[/bold] wrote:
Have the 2 referenda on the same day - easy peasy. I presume the tories think the "little englander" vote will reject the treaty - I dont think voters are that stupid. A referendum on independence would stop all the wasted energy and hot air that would othewise be expended over the next 4 years[/quote] I think you will find the little englander will vote against the treaty. given a chance they'll also vote to come out. I also hope you get a vote for independence, you can then take back you thieving, lying scumbag politicians back to Scotland.
Vespa wrote:
Have the 2 referenda on the same day - easy peasy. I presume the tories think the "little englander" vote will reject the treaty - I dont think voters are that stupid. A referendum on independence would stop all the wasted energy and hot air that would othewise be expended over the next 4 years
I think you will find the little englander will vote against the treaty. given a chance they'll also vote to come out. I also hope you get a vote for independence, you can then take back you thieving, lying scumbag politicians back to Scotland.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:53am Tue 1 Jul 08
In the same paper we have a story regarding Jim Murphy praising him for 'defusing' the lisbon treaty issue and that he'll be taking over at the Scotland Office.
C'mon no.10 get yer story straight.
In the same paper we have a story regarding Jim Murphy praising him for 'defusing' the lisbon treaty issue and that he'll be taking over at the Scotland Office.
C'mon no.10 get yer story straight.
Politics
INDEX
Comment | Read Comments (26)
