Holyrood backs bill to abolish charge on graduates
The restoration of free university education for Scottish students took a step closer last night when MSPs narrowly voted in favour of scrapping the graduate endowment.
The Scottish Government's Graduate Endowment (Abolition) Bill received the backing of 65 MSPs - the minimum needed to secure a parliamentary majority.
Labour and the Conservatives voted against the draft legislation, but it was passed with the support of the SNP, Liberal Democrats, Greens and the Independent, Margo Macdonald.
MSPs also backed a LibDem amendment placing a statutory duty on ministers to provide student support.
The bill will now return to the parliament's Education Committee for line-by-line scrutiny.
If it is eventually passed, it will mean Scottish students will no longer be liable for the £2289 fee when they graduate, although those from England will continue to pay fees of £1700 per year. By contrast, students in English universities have to pay top-up tuition fees of up to £3000 a year.
Education Secretary Fiona Hyslop said 50,000 students would immediately benefit once the charge is scrapped, helping to tackle student debt and widen access to university for those from low-income backgrounds.
She said: "We believe that debt, and the fear of debt, acts as a barrier that prevents some youngsters from entering university.
"The removal of the unfair and inefficient graduate endowment fee is an important first step in our plans and I'm delighted that parliament has approved it."
In an unusual move, a report by the Education Committee last week recommended the parliament vote to reject the general principles of the bill.
After the committee was evenly split, its convener, Labour MSP Karen Whitefield, voted against it.
Labour, who introduced the graduate endowment along with the LibDems when they were in power, point out the money raised is spent of bursaries for low-income students.
During a debate on the bill yesterday, Ms Whitefield said: "Scrapping the graduate endowment will cost the government an estimated £17m a year.
"But surely that is £17m that would have been better invested in measures to widen access and extend the support available to the poorest students through the current bursary system."
Murdo Fraser, the Tories' higher education spokesman, said the bill did nothing to tackle the "unprecedented threat" facing Scottish universities due to the growing funding gap with their English counterparts.
While English universities receive all the money raised through top-up fees, those in Scotland must rely on direct funding from the government.
Mr Fraser said: "Rather than spend money on supporting our universities, the SNP are proposing to cut £17m per year from the education budget and to use that to abolish the graduate endowment.
"That is a proposal which the Scottish Conservatives cannot support."
James Alexander, the president of the National Union of Students in Scotland, said: "Scrapping the graduate endowment is a good start, but much more needs to be done to make access to education
in Scotland truly equal."
The endowment
The graduate endowment was introduced by the previous Labour/LibDem coalition at the start of the 2001-02 academic year as a replacement for tuition fees.
It is a one-off charge of £2289, but graduates do not have to start paying it until they are earning £15,000.
Scottish and EU students are liable for the charge,
but English students still
have to pay tuition fees of around £1700 a year.
Students can pay the fee in cash, add it to their loan or use a mixture of both. Around 70% of graduates have been adding fees to loans each year.
The money raised through the charge is ringfenced and spent on bursaries for students from low-income backgrounds.
Both the LibDems and the SNP promised to scrap the graduate endowment in their pre-election manifestos.
If the bill is passed, students who graduate from this year onwards will no longer have to pay the endowment.
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Posted by: ZX, Edinburgh on 12:17am Fri 21 Dec 07
I can sort of see Labours point on this one. Why should only poor students start their adult life with nothing, when middle-class studentscould do the same?
Better still, we could do what the President of Edinburgh University Student Union (whose opinion is strangley lacking from this article considerign how vocal he is about student debt in general) proposed and make a special tax for graduates, so that they don't finish pay for their university education until they cease working at 70.
There's something fishy going on here when Labour make a fuss about ending student debt and yet fail to support a bill which will rid them of the burden of £2000-2500 of that debt. It's time Labour's elected officials took a working man's wage again, and sent their kids to university on it. We'll see how wel they get on.
I can sort of see Labours point on this one. Why should only poor students start their adult life with nothing, when middle-class studentscould do the same?
Better still, we could do what the President of Edinburgh University Student Union (whose opinion is strangley lacking from this article considerign how vocal he is about student debt in general) proposed and make a special tax for graduates, so that they don't finish pay for their university education until they cease working at 70.
There's something fishy going on here when Labour make a fuss about ending student debt and yet fail to support a bill which will rid them of the burden of £2000-2500 of that debt. It's time Labour's elected officials took a working man's wage again, and sent their kids to university on it. We'll see how wel they get on.
Posted by: Cry me a river on 12:25am Fri 21 Dec 07
Posted this earlier on another story but I made a mistake, here is the correct post...
Have you even read up on it or are you just making assumptions? They don't take from you until you earn over 15 000. They then take 9percent of your annual salary or monthly pay cheque. You can pay off more if you like. That's less than 1500 a year, which is less than 28 pounds a week = less than 6 packet of fags or less than 9 pints in Edinburgh on a Friday night, it's hardly a burden. I am not earning vast amounts of money, but I don't spend a fiver a day on fags so it isn't a big thing 28 quid...
Take away your drunken Friday night a month (still leaves Saturday) and there's your student loan... no probs!
Posted this earlier on another story but I made a mistake, here is the correct post...
Have you even read up on it or are you just making assumptions? They don't take from you until you earn over 15 000. They then take 9percent of your annual salary or monthly pay cheque. You can pay off more if you like. That's less than 1500 a year, which is less than 28 pounds a week = less than 6 packet of fags or less than 9 pints in Edinburgh on a Friday night, it's hardly a burden. I am not earning vast amounts of money, but I don't spend a fiver a day on fags so it isn't a big thing 28 quid...
Take away your drunken Friday night a month (still leaves Saturday) and there's your student loan... no probs!
Posted by: Cry me a river on 12:52am Fri 21 Dec 07
sorry it should be "...Friday nights..." another mistake... d*mnit!
sorry it should be "...Friday nights..." another mistake... d*mnit!
Posted by: ZX, Edinburgh on 1:28am Fri 21 Dec 07
This isn't about student loans, Cry me a river. This is about fees. I agree that the government is not reponsible for anyone's over-spending (I myself live on £500p/m, since that's how much I get paid working part-time, an dI don't want gross debt), but I do believe the government is responsible for providing the means for its populace to receive an education. The graduate endowment betrays that responsibility.
Also, your charicature of students is out-of-date. We're much more likely to waste our money on iPods, facebook, and over/priced sandwiches.
This isn't about student loans, Cry me a river. This is about fees. I agree that the government is not reponsible for anyone's over-spending (I myself live on £500p/m, since that's how much I get paid working part-time, an dI don't want gross debt), but I do believe the government is responsible for providing the means for its populace to receive an education. The graduate endowment betrays that responsibility.
Also, your charicature of students is out-of-date. We're much more likely to waste our money on iPods, facebook, and over/priced sandwiches.
Posted by: doonhamer on 1:41am Fri 21 Dec 07
By removing the burden of student debt, you encourage more students to enter higher education, Rather than paying debt charges which limit thier disposable income, they spend these funds on goods and services which increases the national wealth of the country. The increase in national wealth increases taxes paid to the government thus increasing revenues. As money spent is reinvested, its worth is multiplied. The end result is that the new revenues resulting from the end of the endowment outstrip the funds received as endowment payments.
All in all, a very smart economic policy for Scotland. England should do the same.
By removing the burden of student debt, you encourage more students to enter higher education, Rather than paying debt charges which limit thier disposable income, they spend these funds on goods and services which increases the national wealth of the country. The increase in national wealth increases taxes paid to the government thus increasing revenues. As money spent is reinvested, its worth is multiplied. The end result is that the new revenues resulting from the end of the endowment outstrip the funds received as endowment payments.
All in all, a very smart economic policy for Scotland. England should do the same.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:51am Fri 21 Dec 07
A step in the right direction. Free education.
A step in the right direction. Free education.
Posted by: bill inch on 2:58am Fri 21 Dec 07
ZX You defeat your own purpose with your charicture (HA HA ) of student life . in fact you support the view that there are to many people at uni doing useless courses with no right to be there as there education is below the standard of the institutions they attend to begin with hence the need to teach school standards before they can start there course
ZX You defeat your own purpose with your charicture (HA HA ) of student life . in fact you support the view that there are to many people at uni doing useless courses with no right to be there as there education is below the standard of the institutions they attend to begin with hence the need to teach school standards before they can start there course
Posted by: donald, glasgow on 6:02am Fri 21 Dec 07
Did the Lib Dums actually break Unionist ranks here and fail to attack the students (and the SNP) even further?
Did the Lib Dums actually break Unionist ranks here and fail to attack the students (and the SNP) even further?
Posted by: mt on 7:05am Fri 21 Dec 07
The introduction of the graduate endowment fee was a step backwards for our country.
The administration necessary for its collection from the graduates would be immense.
Its removal is a return to common sense
The introduction of the graduate endowment fee was a step backwards for our country.
The administration necessary for its collection from the graduates would be immense.
Its removal is a return to common sense
Posted by: John J, Edinburgh on 8:00am Fri 21 Dec 07
As parents of graduates we would say that this is removing one more hurdle for young people starting out on their careers.
If the student endowment was such a great idea why did Labour not seek to extend the principle of placing money back into the system for the benefit of the less well off to other qualifications ?
Why was it not charged to apprentices in other trades who benefited from the further education colleges ?
As parents of graduates we would say that this is removing one more hurdle for young people starting out on their careers.
If the student endowment was such a great idea why did Labour not seek to extend the principle of placing money back into the system for the benefit of the less well off to other qualifications ?
Why was it not charged to apprentices in other trades who benefited from the further education colleges ?
Posted by: Joe on 10:17am Fri 21 Dec 07
The SNP are the most hideously right-wing party in the Scottish Parliament - this won't throw anyone off the scent.
The SNP are the most hideously right-wing party in the Scottish Parliament - this won't throw anyone off the scent.
Posted by: logician on 10:23am Fri 21 Dec 07
hi Joe
I see Labour and their thatcherite Tory bosom pals are on the same side opposing free education. Again.
hi Joe
I see Labour and their thatcherite Tory bosom pals are on the same side opposing free education. Again.
Posted by: Joe on 10:28am Fri 21 Dec 07
[quote][bold]logician[/bold] wrote:
hi Joe I see Labour and their thatcherite Tory bosom pals are on the same side opposing free education. Again.[/quote] The Tories can do what they want but I'd expect a genuine centre-left party to stand up for a progressive graduate endowment rather than paying for populism with an agenda of cuts.
Oh, and I wonder when we'll see Salmond being more Thatcherite than Thatcher with his extreme corporation tax cuts or sucking up to oil companies again.
logician wrote:
hi Joe I see Labour and their thatcherite Tory bosom pals are on the same side opposing free education. Again.
The Tories can do what they want but I'd expect a genuine centre-left party to stand up for a progressive graduate endowment rather than paying for populism with an agenda of cuts.
Oh, and I wonder when we'll see Salmond being more Thatcherite than Thatcher with his extreme corporation tax cuts or sucking up to oil companies again.
Posted by: archie, Aberdeen on 11:07am Fri 21 Dec 07
Just to be clear, the poorest students and graduates will not benefit from this decision by a single penny (they didn't have to pay anyway). But the wealthiest will save over £2000.
Also just to be clear, even with the graduate endowment in place, the state is already paying the full tuition costs of Scottish students - graduate endowment payments are used to fund grants for poorer students.
Just to be clear, the poorest students and graduates will not benefit from this decision by a single penny (they didn't have to pay anyway). But the wealthiest will save over £2000.
Also just to be clear, even with the graduate endowment in place, the state is already paying the full tuition costs of Scottish students - graduate endowment payments are used to fund grants for poorer students.
Posted by: ZX, Edinburgh on 12:49pm Fri 21 Dec 07
[quote][bold]bill inch[/bold] wrote:
ZX You defeat your own purpose with your charicture (HA HA ) of student life . in fact you support the view that there are to many people at uni doing useless courses with no right to be there as there education is below the standard of the institutions they attend to begin with hence the need to teach school standards before they can start there course[/quote] Actually, I don't support anything you said, I have no idea where you get your line from. Perhaps, the straw man market had a special today? What I support is free education for all, regardless of background.
bill inch wrote:
ZX You defeat your own purpose with your charicture (HA HA ) of student life . in fact you support the view that there are to many people at uni doing useless courses with no right to be there as there education is below the standard of the institutions they attend to begin with hence the need to teach school standards before they can start there course
Actually, I don't support anything you said, I have no idea where you get your line from. Perhaps, the straw man market had a special today? What I support is free education for all, regardless of background.
Posted by: KF on 1:45pm Fri 21 Dec 07
Joe, remind me again who was that politician who took tea at Downing st with Gordy Broon a few short months ago, the one whom said Gordy announced his admiration for before posinfgfor a photo at the door?
THATCHER
Joe, remind me again who was that politician who took tea at Downing st with Gordy Broon a few short months ago, the one whom said Gordy announced his admiration for before posinfgfor a photo at the door?
THATCHER
Posted by: Allan, glasgow on 1:45pm Fri 21 Dec 07
So here we have it - Labour "party of the working classes" are now against the concept of free universal education and are siding with the Tories. They are a bunch of hypocritical intellectually redundant clowns. Their party founders would be turning in their graves if they could see the charicature that they have now become
So here we have it - Labour "party of the working classes" are now against the concept of free universal education and are siding with the Tories. They are a bunch of hypocritical intellectually redundant clowns. Their party founders would be turning in their graves if they could see the charicature that they have now become
Posted by: Stevie, Bo'ness on 1:52pm Fri 21 Dec 07
Joe, you're priceless.
You're union jack blinkers must be on too tight.
The SNP want to abolish tuition fees... what a bunch of bloody minded opportunists!
It's all a dastardly plot to distroy the union!!!
Joe, you're priceless.
You're union jack blinkers must be on too tight.
The SNP want to abolish tuition fees... what a bunch of bloody minded opportunists!
It's all a dastardly plot to distroy the union!!!
Posted by: James, Edinburgh on 3:42pm Fri 21 Dec 07
Bill Inch
I think you make a good point about too many students doing useless courses. It is crazy that taxpayers should contribute equally towards all students on all couses in this way.
Incentives must be put in place to attract Scots to do the more useful degrees such as science and engineering. Many poorer students leaving university with degrees in media studies, for example, are not going to benefit much from their degree.
The joke still stands: What do you say to a person with a media studies degree? "I'll take an extra portion of fries with that, please."
Bill Inch
I think you make a good point about too many students doing useless courses. It is crazy that taxpayers should contribute equally towards all students on all couses in this way.
Incentives must be put in place to attract Scots to do the more useful degrees such as science and engineering. Many poorer students leaving university with degrees in media studies, for example, are not going to benefit much from their degree.
The joke still stands: What do you say to a person with a media studies degree? "I'll take an extra portion of fries with that, please."
Posted by: Gr8 on 4:59pm Fri 21 Dec 07
[quote][bold]James[/bold] wrote:
Bill Inch
I think you make a good point about too many students doing useless courses. It is crazy that taxpayers should contribute equally towards all students on all couses in this way.
Incentives must be put in place to attract Scots to do the more useful degrees such as science and engineering. Many poorer students leaving university with degrees in media studies, for example, are not going to benefit much from their degree.
The joke still stands: What do you say to a person with a media studies degree? \"I\'ll take an extra portion of fries with that, please.\" [/quote] I think also there are many "universities" which are just glorified colleges and should receive less funding accordingly. These "universities" are accepting students who receive degrees which aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Lets try and make a list of the real Universities that provide well regarded degrees (feel free to add any I've missed)... (ranked by Times good university guide)
Overall ratings...
University of St. Andrews, 5th in the UK
University of Edinburgh, 13th in the UK
Glasgow University, 31st in the UK
Aberdeen University, 32nd in the UK
Stirling, 37th in the UK
Strathclyde (especially business and sciences), 44th in UK
Herriot Watt, 45th in UK
Dundee University (especially dentistry I hear), 50th in UK
Queen Margaret, 58th
Caledonian, 62nd
Napier, 67th
Paisley, 94th
Abertay 100th
Ranked only by graduate prospects (jobs afterwards)...
Edinburgh 13th in UK
Aberdeen 15th
Queen Margaret 18th
Dundee 19th
St. Andrews 25th
Strathclyde 27th
Glasgow 37th
Stirling 40th
Napier 65th
Caley 67th
Herriot 73rd
Paisley 97th
Abertay 100th
This is out of a list of 113 Universities from the Times guide, I would like to point out that the number of people completing courses adds to scores so easier universities will boost their rank a little...
Where would you like to study?
James wrote:
Bill Inch
I think you make a good point about too many students doing useless courses. It is crazy that taxpayers should contribute equally towards all students on all couses in this way.
Incentives must be put in place to attract Scots to do the more useful degrees such as science and engineering. Many poorer students leaving university with degrees in media studies, for example, are not going to benefit much from their degree.
The joke still stands: What do you say to a person with a media studies degree? \"I\'ll take an extra portion of fries with that, please.\"
I think also there are many "universities" which are just glorified colleges and should receive less funding accordingly. These "universities" are accepting students who receive degrees which aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Lets try and make a list of the real Universities that provide well regarded degrees (feel free to add any I've missed)... (ranked by Times good university guide)
Overall ratings...
University of St. Andrews, 5th in the UK
University of Edinburgh, 13th in the UK
Glasgow University, 31st in the UK
Aberdeen University, 32nd in the UK
Stirling, 37th in the UK
Strathclyde (especially business and sciences), 44th in UK
Herriot Watt, 45th in UK
Dundee University (especially dentistry I hear), 50th in UK
Queen Margaret, 58th
Caledonian, 62nd
Napier, 67th
Paisley, 94th
Abertay 100th
Ranked only by graduate prospects (jobs afterwards)...
Edinburgh 13th in UK
Aberdeen 15th
Queen Margaret 18th
Dundee 19th
St. Andrews 25th
Strathclyde 27th
Glasgow 37th
Stirling 40th
Napier 65th
Caley 67th
Herriot 73rd
Paisley 97th
Abertay 100th
This is out of a list of 113 Universities from the Times guide, I would like to point out that the number of people completing courses adds to scores so easier universities will boost their rank a little...
Where would you like to study?
Posted by: Gr8 on 5:01pm Fri 21 Dec 07
I think the term University should not apply to those after 60...
I think the term University should not apply to those after 60...
Posted by: David, Perth on 5:20pm Fri 21 Dec 07
I find the comments from Labour people here really hard to stomach. I'm a centrist and supporter of the SNP and I think paying for education is a crime against man! This is a great move by the SNP.
When I was a lad, I couldn't have gone to college without my grant and the payback comes now that I earn a considerable amount and pay more in Tax and NI monthly than my wife earns. Society has more than been repayed for paying for my college tuition and grant.
Labour just want everyone to pay more tax. There's no social justice with a graduate endowment just tax.
I find the comments from Labour people here really hard to stomach. I'm a centrist and supporter of the SNP and I think paying for education is a crime against man! This is a great move by the SNP.
When I was a lad, I couldn't have gone to college without my grant and the payback comes now that I earn a considerable amount and pay more in Tax and NI monthly than my wife earns. Society has more than been repayed for paying for my college tuition and grant.
Labour just want everyone to pay more tax. There's no social justice with a graduate endowment just tax.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 8:08pm Fri 21 Dec 07
[bold]Joe Swings A Low Blow[/bold] [quote]The SNP are the most hideously right-wing party in the Scottish Parliament[/quote][bold]Labour embraced Thatcher's extreme economic policies, those borrowed by her personally from Milton Friedman and Pinochet, each dictator knowingly installing them by the only method possible - the one recommended by Friedman- the setting aside of democratic rights and freedoms.
Which party did you say was "hideously right wing"? [/bold]
Joe Swings A Low Blow The SNP are the most hideously right-wing party in the Scottish Parliament
Labour embraced Thatcher's extreme economic policies, those borrowed by her personally from Milton Friedman and Pinochet, each dictator knowingly installing them by the only method possible - the one recommended by Friedman- the setting aside of democratic rights and freedoms.
Which party did you say was "hideously right wing"?
Posted by: Wendy, Glasgow on 11:13pm Fri 21 Dec 07
Why don't we just slap the graduate endowment tax on those you HAVE benefited from free university educations, starting with the politions...... [bold]policy idea no.01[/bold]
Why don't we just slap the graduate endowment tax on those you HAVE benefited from free university educations, starting with the politions......
policy idea no.01 Posted by: Joe on 4:08pm Sat 22 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
[bold]Joe Swings A Low Blow[/bold] [quote]The SNP are the most hideously right-wing party in the Scottish Parliament[/quote][bold]Labour embraced Thatcher's extreme economic policies, those borrowed by her personally from Milton Friedman and Pinochet, each dictator knowingly installing them by the only method possible - the one recommended by Friedman- the setting aside of democratic rights and freedoms. Which party did you say was "hideously right wing"? [/bold] [/quote] If you believe that then you'll believe anything. And to reaffirm...Salmond and Russell's SNP are hideously right wing. Stealing £5 million from a single youth charity for a start. The wheels are coming off Salmond's Stagecoach.
Los Angeles wrote:
Joe Swings A Low Blow The SNP are the most hideously right-wing party in the Scottish Parliament
Labour embraced Thatcher's extreme economic policies, those borrowed by her personally from Milton Friedman and Pinochet, each dictator knowingly installing them by the only method possible - the one recommended by Friedman- the setting aside of democratic rights and freedoms. Which party did you say was "hideously right wing"?
If you believe that then you'll believe anything. And to reaffirm...Salmond and Russell's SNP are hideously right wing. Stealing £5 million from a single youth charity for a start. The wheels are coming off Salmond's Stagecoach.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 6:42pm Sat 22 Dec 07
Joe Says No To Dialogue[quote]If you believe that then you'll believe anything.[/quote] No, If you don't believe that you have your head in the sand, or some other orifice.
Do you only want to stick to your chant or do you want discussion?
"Chants" is room 14, down the corridor.
Joe Says No To Dialogue
If you believe that then you'll believe anything.
No, If you don't believe that you have your head in the sand, or some other orifice.
Do you only want to stick to your chant or do you want discussion?
"Chants" is room 14, down the corridor.
Posted by: John Edgar, Cupar Fife on 3:55pm Mon 24 Dec 07
How familiar it is becoming. The arch unionists at Holyrood - Tories and Labour just follow the centrist line. The Tory tears that the universities will have a funding crisis does not mean that tjhe shortfall has to be met by the graduating students. Society used to support its graduates! If the Tories are worried about funding shortfall, then they could campaign for an independent Scotland where we control our own affairs! Or Nu Lab could ask the Nu Lab chancellor to ensure that SCotland at present obtains its due allocation of UK funding from contingency funds held in London. Remember Northern Rock and the immediate funding pledge. But the scot unionists only follow their masters' lead from the South - in the same way that the Eastern block communists used to look to Moscow's direction! They would get a fricht if the English decided to opt out of the Union of 1707. Imagine David Cameron being a Gorbachov in disguise and leaving his unionist minions north of the border in the lurch! No NU LAB south of the border would be the result too!
How familiar it is becoming. The arch unionists at Holyrood - Tories and Labour just follow the centrist line. The Tory tears that the universities will have a funding crisis does not mean that tjhe shortfall has to be met by the graduating students. Society used to support its graduates! If the Tories are worried about funding shortfall, then they could campaign for an independent Scotland where we control our own affairs! Or Nu Lab could ask the Nu Lab chancellor to ensure that SCotland at present obtains its due allocation of UK funding from contingency funds held in London. Remember Northern Rock and the immediate funding pledge. But the scot unionists only follow their masters' lead from the South - in the same way that the Eastern block communists used to look to Moscow's direction! They would get a fricht if the English decided to opt out of the Union of 1707. Imagine David Cameron being a Gorbachov in disguise and leaving his unionist minions north of the border in the lurch! No NU LAB south of the border would be the result too!
Posted by: kevin o'leary, dublin,ireland on 1:42am Fri 28 Dec 07
Joe I think you are wrong that the SNP are Right Wing Party.THey have made the most radical reforms ever knoen in your country.
As an Irishman I can see the benifits of Independence for my country but it seems to me and other Irish people over here that some Scots would rather ho cap in hand to London for everything rather than controlling her own affairs.Is it that these Scots find if they would find working in an Independent Scotland they could not cope with??????? THink about you cowards.
Joe I think you are wrong that the SNP are Right Wing Party.THey have made the most radical reforms ever knoen in your country.
As an Irishman I can see the benifits of Independence for my country but it seems to me and other Irish people over here that some Scots would rather ho cap in hand to London for everything rather than controlling her own affairs.Is it that these Scots find if they would find working in an Independent Scotland they could not cope with??????? THink about you cowards.
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