Public figures back full debate on Scotland’s place in the UK
Politicians, business leaders and union officials yesterday called for a full debate on Scotland's place in the UK after an investigation by The Herald dispelled the myth that Scots are Britain's subsidy junkies.
Commentators south of the Border have cried foul in recent weeks over the apparently high levels of public spending in Scotland, claiming the country is being unfairly subsidised by taxpayers in the rest of the UK.
However, figures published by The Herald showed that public spending per head in Scotland was actually less than in Northern Ireland and London. The investigation also rebutted claims that Scots collect the most in benefits and have access to better public services, courtesy of taxpayers in the rest of the UK.
Murdo Fraser, the deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said: "I congratulate The Herald on an excellent piece of journalism which goes a long way to dispelling some of the myths that exist about Scotland's place in the UK and the financial arrangements around that.
"What we need around this constitutional issue is a calm and rational debate about Scotland's way forward, based upon the facts rather than supposition, so this information is very helpful.
"What we have to do is find a fairer system of government in the UK and that is why we as a party are happy to engage in talks with the other unionist parties to look at how to resolve some of the genuine concerns about unfairness in the current constitutional set-up."
David Lonsdale, assistant director of CBI Scotland, said: "The more scrutiny and the more informed debate there is on these issues, the better."
Stephen Boyd, assistant secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC), said that until now, the debate on Scotland's constitutional future had been hindered by a lack of reliable information.
"We still question the breadth and quality of a lot of the data that is provided," he said. "The STUC is currently considering its position on fiscal autonomy for Scotland and this report is a very helpful contribution to that debate."
Nationalists said the figures disproved unionist claims that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive outwith the UK. First Minister Alex Salmond said: "This destroys the myth that Scotland is anything other than a resource-rich nation, well capable of flourishing with independence.
"Of course, the myth of the subsidised Scot has been peddled not just by Westminster Tories and English tabloids, but also by politicians in Scotland for their own partisan ends."
But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts.
"Being part of a larger economy allows us to weather global economic changes and provide the stability our wealth creators need to drive economic growth and prosperity. To build Scotland's economy on a single, finite and highly price volatile commodity such as oil, which is what the nationalists wish, would destroy that stability."
Among the English commentators who have questioned the amount of money Scotland receives from the Treasury is Kelvin MacKenzie, the former Sun editor.
He caused fury last month when he said on the BBC's Question Time that "the Scots enjoy spending it, they do not enjoy creating it, which is the opposite of down in the south".
Mr MacKenzie remained unrepentant yesterday and said he contested the figures published by The Herald.
He said: "They are not the government's own figures on this issue. It is impossible to believe that the East Midlands and other places can't have free prescriptions and free tuition at universities without (more) money going to Scotland.
"Clearly, there is money sloshing around in the Scottish coffers created from elsewhere that is giving benefit to Scotland that is denied to the rest of the United Kingdom, and that is an unfairness and must stop.
"If you are to believe in universal taxation and universal suffrage, there has to be a universal handout of benefit to us all."
Some of your comments
Hundreds of you replied to our investigation, "Scotching the Myth" that Scotland is a nation of subsidy junkies. Here are some of your views:
A fine article and it sounds like an important contribution to the debate over independence. I'm sceptical about independence, not anti and all I've ever wanted is for truth not spin about the economic status of the constituent parts of the UK.
Andymac, Norway
Well done Herald staff! Any chance you can ensure your research is quoted in the London press and on radio and television? Send a copy to Paxman's editor. Investigative journalism is not dead. Our very own Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward. Good work, lads. More please...
Los Angeles, Edinburgh
What is also missed is that many Scottish businesses have relocated their head offices to London over the past 60 years and are considered English companies. This came about as a result of the economic and political centralism that worked to keep Scotland down and to favour the south of England where the large population resulted in political domination.
Charles McLaren, Canada
Great report. Just when I had lost faith with journalism in general, along they come with this - good stuff. I'll have to dig out the Oxford Economics report and have a look through it but, on the face of it, well done Herald journos for providing positive text backed up by hard facts.
Jet McLazer
Well done to The Herald for publicising facts and not the propaganda we've been subject to. When will the media raise the question of the gerrymandered North Sea boundaries that put oil, that rightly should be Scots income, in English hands? Another question is so-called export figures to England, how about a breakdown of what stays in England and what is re-exported abroad, at further profit and providing further employment benefits to companies that have no interest in the Scots economy.
Clayton-moore
Please don't "cherry pick" the geographical and financial areas you choose to make comparisons with. Such as "Great swaths of northern England" and then Northern Ireland, when it suits the points made. The debate is independence from Britain/England as a whole. I would also have thought Kelvin MacKenzie is as popular in Scotland as in England.
Peter Harvey, London
This report puts to bed all those claims by nationalist fanatics that Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK and London in particular. That is clearly not the case. Scotland now pays her way within the Union and could, if the price of oil stays high, maintain current levels of services in the country for as long as the oil lasted if we were to become independent.
Hawick, Lothians
It seems to say Scotland is roughly neutral in financial terms when tax and spend is balanced against one another. The gaping hole is in terms of public-sector employment. Scots have many more public sector jobs than the English, but not as many as Northern Ireland. The point I would make is that Scotland is still very much a winner as far as spending in the UK is concerned and this is a direct union dividend.
Peter1958
© All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without
permission is prohibited.
Posted by: David Armour, Ayr on 12:26am Sat 3 Nov 07
Wendy Alexander tells us that the Scottish budget was half what it is today at the start of Devolution so does that mean that Scotland was subsidising the rest of the UK to the tune of Billions for many years?
The truth is slowly but surely coming out - Scotland has been more than paying her way for decades.
Time to grasp the thistle and get on with things - Referendum now.
Wendy Alexander tells us that the Scottish budget was half what it is today at the start of Devolution so does that mean that Scotland was subsidising the rest of the UK to the tune of Billions for many years?
The truth is slowly but surely coming out - Scotland has been more than paying her way for decades.
Time to grasp the thistle and get on with things - Referendum now.
Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 12:46am Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote]Murdo Fraser, the deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said: "I congratulate The Herald on an excellent piece of journalism which goes a long way to dispelling some of the myths that exist about Scotland's place in the UK and the financial arrangements around that."What we need around this constitutional issue is a calm and rational debate about Scotland's way forward, based upon the facts rather than supposition, so this information is very helpful.
"What we have to do is find a fairer system of government in the UK and that is why we as a party are happy to engage in talks with the other unionist parties to look at how to resolve some of the genuine concerns about unfairness in the current constitutional set-up."[/quote]
Murdo. I accept your surrender on behalf of the Nationalist movement.
But....
No Murdo, you have all the information, but you have reached exactly the wrong conclusion. The fairest system of government you are groping for is a free, independent Scottish Government outside of the Union. The current constitutional set-up can be tweaked, revised and warped as much as you like - but you are polishing a turd. The sad thing is that for the next few years we are going to have to argue over all sorts of permutations of how much power Westmincer should have and how much power Holyrood should have (Wendy and Annabelle and Nicol are chatting about it now unaware that even before they have reached any conclusions events have moved on and they are out of date.). The truth is they are playing for time, whatever limp piece of crap they produce on Monday isn't going to make any real difference. Tories, Labourites, Lib Dems - it's time fo ryou to think about what part you are going to play in the new Scotland
Murdo Fraser, the deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said: "I congratulate The Herald on an excellent piece of journalism which goes a long way to dispelling some of the myths that exist about Scotland's place in the UK and the financial arrangements around that."What we need around this constitutional issue is a calm and rational debate about Scotland's way forward, based upon the facts rather than supposition, so this information is very helpful.
"What we have to do is find a fairer system of government in the UK and that is why we as a party are happy to engage in talks with the other unionist parties to look at how to resolve some of the genuine concerns about unfairness in the current constitutional set-up."
Murdo. I accept your surrender on behalf of the Nationalist movement.
But....
No Murdo, you have all the information, but you have reached exactly the wrong conclusion. The fairest system of government you are groping for is a free, independent Scottish Government outside of the Union. The current constitutional set-up can be tweaked, revised and warped as much as you like - but you are polishing a turd. The sad thing is that for the next few years we are going to have to argue over all sorts of permutations of how much power Westmincer should have and how much power Holyrood should have (Wendy and Annabelle and Nicol are chatting about it now unaware that even before they have reached any conclusions events have moved on and they are out of date.). The truth is they are playing for time, whatever limp piece of crap they produce on Monday isn't going to make any real difference. Tories, Labourites, Lib Dems - it's time fo ryou to think about what part you are going to play in the new Scotland
Posted by: WJ, Ayrshire on 12:56am Sat 3 Nov 07
"Stephen Boyd, assistant secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC), said that until now, the debate on Scotland's constitutional future had been hindered by a lack of reliable information."
Therein lies the crux of the matter. The relevant question being who has hindered the lack of reliable information?
Could it be that we have never had a non-unionist leadership for the past three hundred plus years? Is it possible that perhaps partisan reasons have ensured the reliable information is withheld from the Scottish electorate?
I mean, it's not as if an pro-unionist party would ever attempt to sway a Scottish election for partisan ends is it?
"Stephen Boyd, assistant secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC), said that until now, the debate on Scotland's constitutional future had been hindered by a lack of reliable information."
Therein lies the crux of the matter. The relevant question being who has hindered the lack of reliable information?
Could it be that we have never had a non-unionist leadership for the past three hundred plus years? Is it possible that perhaps partisan reasons have ensured the reliable information is withheld from the Scottish electorate?
I mean, it's not as if an pro-unionist party would ever attempt to sway a Scottish election for partisan ends is it?
Posted by: WJ, Ayrshire on 12:59am Sat 3 Nov 07
P.S. - Thank heavens for Kelvin McKenzie! The greatest gift to the Scottish independence cause ever. [italic](where's the wink wink smilie when you need it?)[/italic]
P.S. - Thank heavens for Kelvin McKenzie! The greatest gift to the Scottish independence cause ever.
(where's the wink wink smilie when you need it?) Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 1:11am Sat 3 Nov 07
Peter 1958
Time to give it up mate - it's over.
Peter 1958
Time to give it up mate - it's over.
Posted by: Denis, Glasgow on 1:14am Sat 3 Nov 07
I seem to have got here early so I'll ask some moderation in the posts. The future of Scotland is far too important to be the subject of a slagging match.
I seem to have got here early so I'll ask some moderation in the posts. The future of Scotland is far too important to be the subject of a slagging match.
Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 1:29am Sat 3 Nov 07
Denis@1.14
There have been ONLY 5 posts so far.
Kindly show where the slagging match is. Explain where moderation is required.
If you don't I will assume you are a big jessie.
Wullie
Denis@1.14
There have been ONLY 5 posts so far.
Kindly show where the slagging match is. Explain where moderation is required.
If you don't I will assume you are a big jessie.
Wullie
Posted by: John Saultire, Scotland on 1:32am Sat 3 Nov 07
Why oh why does Scotland keep getting undersold. I love this country and why do we have so many naysayers who sell us out. Shout it loud...Scotland will be better when free!!!!!!!!!![bold]bold[/bold]
Why oh why does Scotland keep getting undersold. I love this country and why do we have so many naysayers who sell us out. Shout it loud...Scotland will be better when free!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Addison De Witt on 1:35am Sat 3 Nov 07
Denis 1.14 am
You madam are very patronising.
Are you a teacher and the rest of us children. Damm you.
Denis 1.14 am
You madam are very patronising.
Are you a teacher and the rest of us children. Damm you.
Posted by: Kinghob on 1:41am Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote]"Politicians, business leaders and union officials yesterday called for a full debate on Scotland's place in the UK after an investigation by The Herald dispelled the myth that Scots are Britain's subsidy junkies.[/quote]
Hurray, about time.
[quote]Commentators south of the Border have cried foul in recent weeks over the apparently high levels of public spending in Scotland, claiming the country is being unfairly subsidised by taxpayers in the rest of the UK."[/quote]
This rather tasteless and divisive campaign by the Telegraph et al. (English editions only of course) is now found out as being despicable, and the subsidy junkie myth and a underlying anti Scottishness has been also peddled for years by the so called 'Scottish" media like the Daily Record as well.
They don't represent us any more.
This type of media have British interests in common, no genuine empathy with Scotland or England.
That gravy train is running out of bisto and water!
"Politicians, business leaders and union officials yesterday called for a full debate on Scotland's place in the UK after an investigation by The Herald dispelled the myth that Scots are Britain's subsidy junkies.
Hurray, about time.
Commentators south of the Border have cried foul in recent weeks over the apparently high levels of public spending in Scotland, claiming the country is being unfairly subsidised by taxpayers in the rest of the UK."
This rather tasteless and divisive campaign by the Telegraph et al. (English editions only of course) is now found out as being despicable, and the subsidy junkie myth and a underlying anti Scottishness has been also peddled for years by the so called 'Scottish" media like the Daily Record as well.
They don't represent us any more.
This type of media have British interests in common, no genuine empathy with Scotland or England.
That gravy train is running out of bisto and water!
Posted by: Scunnert on 2:28am Sat 3 Nov 07
Amazing what a couple of days can do in the life of a newspaper. Keep it coming Herald.
The debate over 'can we afford to go it alone' is over. The debate about 'when do we go it alone' is not yet here. It is time for the debate about what kind of Scotland we want..
If the labs and libdems and tories want to have a voice in that independent Scotland they had better start telling the Scottish people of their vision of our future. At the moment they are a complete irrelevance.
Amazing what a couple of days can do in the life of a newspaper. Keep it coming Herald.
The debate over 'can we afford to go it alone' is over. The debate about 'when do we go it alone' is not yet here. It is time for the debate about what kind of Scotland we want..
If the labs and libdems and tories want to have a voice in that independent Scotland they had better start telling the Scottish people of their vision of our future. At the moment they are a complete irrelevance.
Posted by: Jimbo on 2:42am Sat 3 Nov 07
Aye Kinghob,
you're absolutely right. But this very paper prior to the elections was also happily peddling the Labour Party propaganda that Scotland was an economic basket case with a black hole that swelled from £2 billion to £18 billion the closer it came to the election.
It's not as if they were not in possession of the facts as Niall McAslan, the man responsible for these figures stated he had sent them to every Scottish newspaper. It's just that the Herald and all the other anti SNP media chose to ignore them.
The source of their figures were taken from the "The Big Lie" and "The Great Deception GERS 2005" to be found at: http://www.alba.org.
uk website under the title of "Scotching the myth." They even took his title for their headline.
Aye Kinghob,
you're absolutely right. But this very paper prior to the elections was also happily peddling the Labour Party propaganda that Scotland was an economic basket case with a black hole that swelled from £2 billion to £18 billion the closer it came to the election.
It's not as if they were not in possession of the facts as Niall McAslan, the man responsible for these figures stated he had sent them to every Scottish newspaper. It's just that the Herald and all the other anti SNP media chose to ignore them.
The source of their figures were taken from the "The Big Lie" and "The Great Deception GERS 2005" to be found at: http://www.alba.org.
uk website under the title of "Scotching the myth." They even took his title for their headline.
Posted by: Edward Means, California on 3:01am Sat 3 Nov 07
Congratulations to the Herald for giving these facts wide circulation. Prevously no Scottish broadsheet would touch it with a bargepole.
The most recent detailed analysis of GERS-2005 was conducted in early 2007, when that report was published, by Niall Aslen, an experienced accountant, who used the Government’s own published figures to expose the flaws and demolish the arguments of the GERS analysis. Mr Aslen's analysis, "The Great Deception" is available at http://www.scottishe
nterpriseparty.org/t
he-great-deception.h
tm.
But the true facts were actually known by the UK government since 1975. Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, has known since 1975 of the of the UK Government’s duplicity about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a secret report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was suppressed and only came to light in 2005 when the UK Government was forced by law to release it. The report advised the then Labour Government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. The report is at http://www.snpyouth.
org/documents/mccron
ereport.pdf.
Congratulations to the Herald for giving these facts wide circulation. Prevously no Scottish broadsheet would touch it with a bargepole.
The most recent detailed analysis of GERS-2005 was conducted in early 2007, when that report was published, by Niall Aslen, an experienced accountant, who used the Government’s own published figures to expose the flaws and demolish the arguments of the GERS analysis. Mr Aslen's analysis, "The Great Deception" is available at http://www.scottishe
nterpriseparty.org/t
he-great-deception.h
tm.
But the true facts were actually known by the UK government since 1975. Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, has known since 1975 of the of the UK Government’s duplicity about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a secret report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was suppressed and only came to light in 2005 when the UK Government was forced by law to release it. The report advised the then Labour Government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. The report is at http://www.snpyouth.
org/documents/mccron
ereport.pdf.
Posted by: Edward Means on 3:12am Sat 3 Nov 07
Re my 3:01 AM comment:
The phrase, "...when that report was published, by Niall Aslen..." should read "when that report was analysed by Niall Aslen..."
Sory about that!
Re my 3:01 AM comment:
The phrase, "...when that report was published, by Niall Aslen..." should read "when that report was analysed by Niall Aslen..."
Sory about that!
Posted by: Macuistean, Isle of Tiree on 5:03am Sat 3 Nov 07
But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts.
Please Mr Gray could someone, anyone, tell me how Scotland is better off. We have been classed as parasites and beggars by the English media, among others, but it is us who have been paying our way and more. Please, please can someone tell me what we get from this Union?
But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts.
Please Mr Gray could someone, anyone, tell me how Scotland is better off. We have been classed as parasites and beggars by the English media, among others, but it is us who have been paying our way and more. Please, please can someone tell me what we get from this Union?
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 5:24am Sat 3 Nov 07
Macuistean, Isle of Tiree,
Nothin!
Macuistean, Isle of Tiree,
Nothin!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 6:30am Sat 3 Nov 07
The balloon Stays Inflated[quote]Mr MacKenzie remained unrepentant yesterday and said he contested the figures published by The Herald.[/quote] Mr Mackenzie is an embarrassment to his mother. His mother said today, "I contested his birth as my child but the maternity sister was adamant - no one else wanted him."
The balloon Stays Inflated
Mr MacKenzie remained unrepentant yesterday and said he contested the figures published by The Herald.
Mr Mackenzie is an embarrassment to his mother. His mother said today, "I contested his birth as my child but the maternity sister was adamant - no one else wanted him."
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 7:12am Sat 3 Nov 07
Sorry folks, I predicted yesterday that Herald would revert to type by to-day.
I was wrong
But after 34 years fighting the SNPs case, I find it hard to accept Greeks bearing gifts.
As several other posters yesterday pointed out maggie's in a hole on Scottish finance and the Herald "discovering" this report (which was sent to them at least 3 months ago) at this time seems opertune to say the least.
Especialy as yesterday the SNP lodged the Scottish Governments own report on Scotlands fiscal position and stability with the Parlimentary library.
As we see above Ian Grey for lab are using this as a case for the union -- so that I predict the Nationalists will from here on be made out to be greedy and grasping.
Anyway got to go now, It promises to be an interesting weekend, stoking up the English press.
Oh the life we ex-pats lead.
Sorry folks, I predicted yesterday that Herald would revert to type by to-day.
I was wrong
But after 34 years fighting the SNPs case, I find it hard to accept Greeks bearing gifts.
As several other posters yesterday pointed out maggie's in a hole on Scottish finance and the Herald "discovering" this report (which was sent to them at least 3 months ago) at this time seems opertune to say the least.
Especialy as yesterday the SNP lodged the Scottish Governments own report on Scotlands fiscal position and stability with the Parlimentary library.
As we see above Ian Grey for lab are using this as a case for the union -- so that I predict the Nationalists will from here on be made out to be greedy and grasping.
Anyway got to go now, It promises to be an interesting weekend, stoking up the English press.
Oh the life we ex-pats lead.
Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., ETHENPPEE! AND FWEEDOM on 7:42am Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote]"We still question the breadth and quality of a lot of the data that is provided," he said. "The STUC is currently considering its position on fiscal autonomy for Scotland and this report is a very helpful contribution to that debate."[/quote]
Must have had to call labour head office for that snippet, from the unions.
"We still question the breadth and quality of a lot of the data that is provided," he said. "The STUC is currently considering its position on fiscal autonomy for Scotland and this report is a very helpful contribution to that debate."
Must have had to call labour head office for that snippet, from the unions.
Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., ETHENPPEE! AND FWEEDOM on 7:45am Sat 3 Nov 07
And while I am going on about things. When did Kelvin Mac Kenzie become an auricle of economics and governance?
[bold]I allways thought he was Goering to Murdochs Hitler Myself.....[/bold]
And while I am going on about things. When did Kelvin Mac Kenzie become an auricle of economics and governance?
I allways thought he was Goering to Murdochs Hitler Myself..... Posted by: Im not really here on 7:51am Sat 3 Nov 07
pehman, sussex on 7:12am today
You're wrong. Nice as the article was yesterday, the whole point of it was to try and pour oil on the waters. The LAST THING unionists want is a public debate SOUTH OF THE BORDER on the union. For years they have been using the lie in Scotland that we are being heavily subsidised. Now with the Internet, etc that lie has crept South of the Border. Now aided and abetted with a very able First Minister who stands up for Scotland, the English are waking up.
Make no mistake, The Herald is a Unionist paper, but they just had to decide what was the lesser of two evils, Writing this article to try and defuse the debate, and tell Scots what they already know; or let the English debate in SE English papers continue unanswered.
[quote]But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts.[/quote]
You can expect this to be the NEW LIE. "We never said that Scotland was being subsidised...."
What Ian Gray is saying is the English Economy would suffer with an Independent Scotland - tough Scotland Economy has suffered with the Union.
pehman, sussex on 7:12am today
You're wrong. Nice as the article was yesterday, the whole point of it was to try and pour oil on the waters. The LAST THING unionists want is a public debate SOUTH OF THE BORDER on the union. For years they have been using the lie in Scotland that we are being heavily subsidised. Now with the Internet, etc that lie has crept South of the Border. Now aided and abetted with a very able First Minister who stands up for Scotland, the English are waking up.
Make no mistake, The Herald is a Unionist paper, but they just had to decide what was the lesser of two evils, Writing this article to try and defuse the debate, and tell Scots what they already know; or let the English debate in SE English papers continue unanswered.
But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts.
You can expect this to be the NEW LIE. "We never said that Scotland was being subsidised...."
What Ian Gray is saying is the English Economy would suffer with an Independent Scotland - tough Scotland Economy has suffered with the Union.
Posted by: Vronsky, Scotland on 7:57am Sat 3 Nov 07
@juan kerr 7:45
Thought at first you had put 'auricle' in error for 'oracle'. But I see that auricle is defined as a feature found in a foetal pig, so given that we're talking about Kelvin McKenzie here...
@juan kerr 7:45
Thought at first you had put 'auricle' in error for 'oracle'. But I see that auricle is defined as a feature found in a foetal pig, so given that we're talking about Kelvin McKenzie here...
Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., PROMITHES....PROMITH
ES on 8:09am Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote][bold]Vronsky[/bold] wrote:
@juan kerr 7:45 Thought at first you had put 'auricle' in error for 'oracle'. But I see that auricle is defined as a feature found in a foetal pig, so given that we're talking about Kelvin McKenzie here...[/quote] It about sums Kelvin up. Allthough my ignorance did misspelled it ;-)
Kind of like if you say broken promithes enough times eventualy a broken promith will come allong.
[bold]In the Same Way Alan Davis plays QI. Every questions answer will be "ELEPHANT" in the hope an "ELEPHANT" question gets asked.[/bold]
Vronsky wrote:
@juan kerr 7:45 Thought at first you had put 'auricle' in error for 'oracle'. But I see that auricle is defined as a feature found in a foetal pig, so given that we're talking about Kelvin McKenzie here...
It about sums Kelvin up. Allthough my ignorance did misspelled it ;-)
Kind of like if you say broken promithes enough times eventualy a broken promith will come allong.
In the Same Way Alan Davis plays QI. Every questions answer will be "ELEPHANT" in the hope an "ELEPHANT" question gets asked. Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., BWOKEN PROMITHES on 8:12am Sat 3 Nov 07
VRONKSY? Is the Auricle anywhere near a pigs @rse?
VRONKSY? Is the Auricle anywhere near a pigs @rse?
Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., THE LAND OF BWOKEN PROMITHES on 8:36am Sat 3 Nov 07
http://thescotsman.s
cotsman.com/politics
.cfm?id=1751452007
[bold]
Interesting to note the Scotsmans burrying as far back in paper of this story/excuse for new labour and their Non independent journalism[/bold]
http://thescotsman.s
cotsman.com/politics
.cfm?id=1751452007
Interesting to note the Scotsmans burrying as far back in paper of this story/excuse for new labour and their Non independent journalism Posted by: Onecuppete, Falkirk on 9:44am Sat 3 Nov 07
I applaud the Herald's attempt to try and introduce some rationale debate on this subject. However, lets face it. Why bother trying to persuade xenophobic intelectual illiterates like Kelvin MacKenzie. He and his ilk do not want to examine evidence or be confused by the facts. MacKenzie writes for the Sun, one of the soft **** comics! Do not expect any help from the BBC who have sold their souls to the Labour Party and are anti scottish. Let the ignorant little englanders peddle their bile and prejudice. They are the nationalists best allies....every word of their poisonous drivel pushes the independence debate forward. The unionists like Maggie Broon, Darling and the rest of that parcel of rogues response is to pander to this by being harsher on their fellow Scots.... adding still more fuel to the fire. There is no appetite in the UK to let its component nations unleash their talent and creativity. It is all a threat to South East of England's grab of the bulk of the nations wealth. Lets end this farce of Britishness and the pretence that we live in anything other than the "Divided Kingdom"!!
I applaud the Herald's attempt to try and introduce some rationale debate on this subject. However, lets face it. Why bother trying to persuade xenophobic intelectual illiterates like Kelvin MacKenzie. He and his ilk do not want to examine evidence or be confused by the facts. MacKenzie writes for the Sun, one of the soft **** comics! Do not expect any help from the BBC who have sold their souls to the Labour Party and are anti scottish. Let the ignorant little englanders peddle their bile and prejudice. They are the nationalists best allies....every word of their poisonous drivel pushes the independence debate forward. The unionists like Maggie Broon, Darling and the rest of that parcel of rogues response is to pander to this by being harsher on their fellow Scots.... adding still more fuel to the fire. There is no appetite in the UK to let its component nations unleash their talent and creativity. It is all a threat to South East of England's grab of the bulk of the nations wealth. Lets end this farce of Britishness and the pretence that we live in anything other than the "Divided Kingdom"!!
Posted by: Really keen, United Kingdom on 10:01am Sat 3 Nov 07
I think the observation prize today must go to “I’m not really here”.
He/she is the only one to have spotted the ruse. As the rest of you nationalists rush lemming like to adore Kevin Schofield and the Herald “converts”, only “I’m not really here” has questioned if a leopard can change its spots. **** you! We’ve been rumbled.
This is the new Unionist offensive – you complained for long and weary about negative campaigning, so now we agree with you all. Look at the commentary – Scotland is in a neutral financial position and gets what it gives (remember the full benefit of all oil tax revenues has been credited to achieve that position). So why independence?
That’s the new offensive.
I think the observation prize today must go to “I’m not really here”.
He/she is the only one to have spotted the ruse. As the rest of you nationalists rush lemming like to adore Kevin Schofield and the Herald “converts”, only “I’m not really here” has questioned if a leopard can change its spots. **** you! We’ve been rumbled.
This is the new Unionist offensive – you complained for long and weary about negative campaigning, so now we agree with you all. Look at the commentary – Scotland is in a neutral financial position and gets what it gives (remember the full benefit of all oil tax revenues has been credited to achieve that position). So why independence?
That’s the new offensive.
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 10:10am Sat 3 Nov 07
Am no really here,
Yes that's what I said.
Far from lab saying as they have, that Scots are living on English handouts. From here on it will be how greedy and grasping and ungreatful the SNPs vision of an Independent is.
It's the same argument, but from a differing perspective vis Scots should be happy to cotribute to the union.
Am no really here,
Yes that's what I said.
Far from lab saying as they have, that Scots are living on English handouts. From here on it will be how greedy and grasping and ungreatful the SNPs vision of an Independent is.
It's the same argument, but from a differing perspective vis Scots should be happy to cotribute to the union.
Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., THE LAND OF BWOKEN PROMITHES on 10:13am Sat 3 Nov 07
NEWSNIGHT POLL:
VOTE RESULTS
Vote for one of the following:
Conservative
44.84%
Green Party
3.44%
Labour
22.38%
Lib Dem
19.61%
Plaid Cymru
0.42%
Respect
1.09%
SNP
1.59%
UKIP
2.93%
Other
3.69%
1193 Votes Cast
http://newsvote.bbc.
co.uk/1/hi/programme
s/newsnight/politics
/default.stm?dynamic
_vote=ON#vote_707108
5
NEWSNIGHT POLL:
VOTE RESULTS
Vote for one of the following:
Conservative
44.84%
Green Party
3.44%
Labour
22.38%
Lib Dem
19.61%
Plaid Cymru
0.42%
Respect
1.09%
SNP
1.59%
UKIP
2.93%
Other
3.69%
1193 Votes Cast
http://newsvote.bbc.
co.uk/1/hi/programme
s/newsnight/politics
/default.stm?dynamic
_vote=ON#vote_707108
5
Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 10:16am Sat 3 Nov 07
Really keen
No lemmings, no "adoring" - you're exaggerating. Read the posts from yesterday. Some of us are cautiously hopeful - thats all. Remember too they've [italic]given ground[/italic] no ifs no buts, the ratchet has tightened again. Any sign of backsliding and attitudes will simply change.
Really keen
No lemmings, no "adoring" - you're exaggerating. Read the posts from yesterday. Some of us are cautiously hopeful - thats all. Remember too they've
given ground no ifs no buts, the ratchet has tightened again. Any sign of backsliding and attitudes will simply change.
Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., BWOKEN PROMITHES on 10:18am Sat 3 Nov 07
Far better to get 60 million english behind a campaign to keep us in the union that the smaller numbers Independence can rise by oposing it. That way No Independence.
Essentialy another slant on the devide and rule ruse.
Alex should start asking the heads of the EU nations too play referee here? Funny things are afoot. Like leuchars being declared english territory? What about the fishing and oil grounds it may have access too?
Far better to get 60 million english behind a campaign to keep us in the union that the smaller numbers Independence can rise by oposing it. That way No Independence.
Essentialy another slant on the devide and rule ruse.
Alex should start asking the heads of the EU nations too play referee here? Funny things are afoot. Like leuchars being declared english territory? What about the fishing and oil grounds it may have access too?
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 10:28am Sat 3 Nov 07
Am no realy here,
I've replied to this already, but my post seems to have disappeared.
Anyway Goodmorning to you my friend.
Yes thats what I was saying.
Lab in the past used the "we survive only with English help" argument.
But from here on the new approch will be that the SNP are nothing more than greedy and self centred, Parochial.
Lab will argue that Scots are proud of the union and that the price of it is worth paying for the common good.
Utter b allocks to You and me, but thats how I see labs, or more exactly the tory allience's new position.
The genie's out the bottle and there is no way it's going back.
Onwards and upwards my friend.
Am no realy here,
I've replied to this already, but my post seems to have disappeared.
Anyway Goodmorning to you my friend.
Yes thats what I was saying.
Lab in the past used the "we survive only with English help" argument.
But from here on the new approch will be that the SNP are nothing more than greedy and self centred, Parochial.
Lab will argue that Scots are proud of the union and that the price of it is worth paying for the common good.
Utter b allocks to You and me, but thats how I see labs, or more exactly the tory allience's new position.
The genie's out the bottle and there is no way it's going back.
Onwards and upwards my friend.
Posted by: Craig, Edinburgh on 10:28am Sat 3 Nov 07
I went to buy a Herald yesterday after reading the report online. But they had sold out of copies. (Plenty Scotsmans left though.)
Take from that what you will.
I went to buy a Herald yesterday after reading the report online. But they had sold out of copies. (Plenty Scotsmans left though.)
Take from that what you will.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 10:43am Sat 3 Nov 07
Lets construct a list of those who have systematically LIED to Scots over it's economy, tax revenues and public sector spending over the years;
1. Alf Young of The Herald.
2. The Herald newspaper.
3. The Scotsman.
4. The Daily Record.
5. The Scottish Sun.
6. Sunday Mail
7. The Sunday Post
8. Tony Blair
9. Gordon Brown
10. Alistair Darling
11. Wendy Alexander
12. Arthur Midwinter
13. Labour party MPs
14. Labour party MSPs
15. The Labour party (and it's many disguises thru the years)
16. The Unions
17. The STUC
18. The Tory party
19. The LibDems
20. The Westminster establishment.
21. Whitehall civil servants.
22. The London media
23. Partisan economists.
24. Partisan academics (remember that letter in May 2007)
25..................
.
Feel free to add more to list, the modern version of the Ragman's Roll.
Years and years of Unionist negativity that Scotland is too wee, too stupid and too small coupled with lies about black holes, high taxes, cuts in public spending and the demonisation of Scots in the English media has come back and bit Scottish unionists in the erse.
The question to be asked now is do you still TRUST such people even after such a confession?
The answer is NO!
Lets construct a list of those who have systematically LIED to Scots over it's economy, tax revenues and public sector spending over the years;
1. Alf Young of The Herald.
2. The Herald newspaper.
3. The Scotsman.
4. The Daily Record.
5. The Scottish Sun.
6. Sunday Mail
7. The Sunday Post
8. Tony Blair
9. Gordon Brown
10. Alistair Darling
11. Wendy Alexander
12. Arthur Midwinter
13. Labour party MPs
14. Labour party MSPs
15. The Labour party (and it's many disguises thru the years)
16. The Unions
17. The STUC
18. The Tory party
19. The LibDems
20. The Westminster establishment.
21. Whitehall civil servants.
22. The London media
23. Partisan economists.
24. Partisan academics (remember that letter in May 2007)
25..................
.
Feel free to add more to list, the modern version of the Ragman's Roll.
Years and years of Unionist negativity that Scotland is too wee, too stupid and too small coupled with lies about black holes, high taxes, cuts in public spending and the demonisation of Scots in the English media has come back and bit Scottish unionists in the erse.
The question to be asked now is do you still TRUST such people even after such a confession?
The answer is NO!
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 10:51am Sat 3 Nov 07
I also have a note of caution ..After all the media have had a long time to make a report on this and all we read was basket case Scotland.What has changed?
Forgive my suspicion of the Heralds motives but they have been peddling a Labour view for far too long.
They have twisted every story to give it an anti SNP slant much like its Edinburgh counterpart.
I would love to see it return to its glory days pre SMG et al,where balance was its watchword,but I doubt that is going to happen any day soon!
Yesterday someone wrote about newspapers being in the business of making money therefore writing to save sales comes into the equation,can anyone tell me the circulation figures for the Herald from last year to this??
I also have a note of caution ..After all the media have had a long time to make a report on this and all we read was basket case Scotland.What has changed?
Forgive my suspicion of the Heralds motives but they have been peddling a Labour view for far too long.
They have twisted every story to give it an anti SNP slant much like its Edinburgh counterpart.
I would love to see it return to its glory days pre SMG et al,where balance was its watchword,but I doubt that is going to happen any day soon!
Yesterday someone wrote about newspapers being in the business of making money therefore writing to save sales comes into the equation,can anyone tell me the circulation figures for the Herald from last year to this??
Posted by: jim mitchell, Sauchie, clack's on 11:42am Sat 3 Nov 07
Actually ths isin't the first time that the facts have been introduced or the truth admitted, but what happened in the past was that the unionists would wait to see how much outrage there was at the admissions, if it was only from the usual folk, namely the likes of us, then they, with their media friends would just go back to peddling the same old tripe.
What get's me is the time waisted since at least the early seventies, when if the truth had been admitted and the right attitudes shown, there could have been a prosperous Scotland and a much healthier attitude between our nations.
The truth isin't just out there, it's always been out there, it's just that there have always been those who for their own greedy, grasping, selfish, self interest didn't want anybody to know the truth.
And it aint over yet, I am highly suspicous of this sudden called for debate, watch for much more of the, not could we, but should we type of arguements, just sounds like the latest in a long list of delaying tactics.
As in bore the populace silly so they will turn off.
Actually ths isin't the first time that the facts have been introduced or the truth admitted, but what happened in the past was that the unionists would wait to see how much outrage there was at the admissions, if it was only from the usual folk, namely the likes of us, then they, with their media friends would just go back to peddling the same old tripe.
What get's me is the time waisted since at least the early seventies, when if the truth had been admitted and the right attitudes shown, there could have been a prosperous Scotland and a much healthier attitude between our nations.
The truth isin't just out there, it's always been out there, it's just that there have always been those who for their own greedy, grasping, selfish, self interest didn't want anybody to know the truth.
And it aint over yet, I am highly suspicous of this sudden called for debate, watch for much more of the, not could we, but should we type of arguements, just sounds like the latest in a long list of delaying tactics.
As in bore the populace silly so they will turn off.
Posted by: Addison De Witt on 11:46am Sat 3 Nov 07
The labour Herald writes a sympathetic article about independence
A leopard does not change its spots .
Its all very fishy .
'' Im not really here'' is right.
Its another devious Labour trick to prevent a backlash from the
London press that wants Scotland kicked out of the union because
'' the Scots are all subsidy junkies'' so says Kelvin McKenzie.
The labour Herald writes a sympathetic article about independence
A leopard does not change its spots .
Its all very fishy .
'' Im not really here'' is right.
Its another devious Labour trick to prevent a backlash from the
London press that wants Scotland kicked out of the union because
'' the Scots are all subsidy junkies'' so says Kelvin McKenzie.
Posted by: Huttcity, New Zealand on 11:47am Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote][bold]juan Kerr and his other hand.....[/bold] wrote:
And while I am going on about things. When did Kelvin Mac Kenzie become an auricle of economics and governance?
[bold]I allways thought he was Goering to Murdochs Hitler Myself.....[/bold] [/quote] spot on mate
juan Kerr and his other hand..... wrote:
And while I am going on about things. When did Kelvin Mac Kenzie become an auricle of economics and governance?
I allways thought he was Goering to Murdochs Hitler Myself.....
spot on mate
Posted by: Ron, Just down the road on 11:51am Sat 3 Nov 07
"But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that ....... "This has never been about subsidies,".
A week is a long time in the mind of a politician. So long, in fact, that he obviously hopes nobody remembers the Labour Party, following the lead of Blair himself, ranting during the recent election about how independence would cost every Scots family 5000 pounds to fill one or other of their mythical "black holes"! Would anyone object strongly if I apply the word "liar" to friend Gray for coming out with his latest contortion?
"But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain."
Would Labour's shadow finance secretary care to tell us which economic report from the indendent State of Scotland he is using to compare with the present political and economic set-up, and which year the government of Scotland issued that report on the Scottish economy.
Alternately, would he care to stop attempting to mislead the public with completely meaningless and totally unfounded assertions.
And for those who fear a new unionist onslaught along the "greedy and self-centred" lines, this was used extensively in the seventies by unionists during the "It's Scotland's Oil" campaign. It wouldn't surprise my in the least to see its return. They'll use any twisted lie they can get their hands on.
"But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that ....... "This has never been about subsidies,".
A week is a long time in the mind of a politician. So long, in fact, that he obviously hopes nobody remembers the Labour Party, following the lead of Blair himself, ranting during the recent election about how independence would cost every Scots family 5000 pounds to fill one or other of their mythical "black holes"! Would anyone object strongly if I apply the word "liar" to friend Gray for coming out with his latest contortion?
"But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain."
Would Labour's shadow finance secretary care to tell us which economic report from the indendent State of Scotland he is using to compare with the present political and economic set-up, and which year the government of Scotland issued that report on the Scottish economy.
Alternately, would he care to stop attempting to mislead the public with completely meaningless and totally unfounded assertions.
And for those who fear a new unionist onslaught along the "greedy and self-centred" lines, this was used extensively in the seventies by unionists during the "It's Scotland's Oil" campaign. It wouldn't surprise my in the least to see its return. They'll use any twisted lie they can get their hands on.
Posted by: Huttcity, New Zealand on 11:57am Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote][bold]Im not really here[/bold] wrote:
pehman, sussex on 7:12am today
You're wrong. Nice as the article was yesterday, the whole point of it was to try and pour oil on the waters. The LAST THING unionists want is a public debate SOUTH OF THE BORDER on the union. For years they have been using the lie in Scotland that we are being heavily subsidised. Now with the Internet, etc that lie has crept South of the Border. Now aided and abetted with a very able First Minister who stands up for Scotland, the English are waking up.
Make no mistake, The Herald is a Unionist paper, but they just had to decide what was the lesser of two evils, Writing this article to try and defuse the debate, and tell Scots what they already know; or let the English debate in SE English papers continue unanswered.
[quote]But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts.[/quote]
You can expect this to be the NEW LIE. "We never said that Scotland was being subsidised...."
What Ian Gray is saying is the English Economy would suffer with an Independent Scotland - tough Scotland Economy has suffered with the Union.[/quote] you're quite right - it really does seem a last ditch attempt and hopefully the last nail in the "can we be independent argument " the new argument will be "should we be independent?" And good luck to the unionists if they think they can argue that Scotland will be better off living off handouts.
Im not really here wrote:
pehman, sussex on 7:12am today
You're wrong. Nice as the article was yesterday, the whole point of it was to try and pour oil on the waters. The LAST THING unionists want is a public debate SOUTH OF THE BORDER on the union. For years they have been using the lie in Scotland that we are being heavily subsidised. Now with the Internet, etc that lie has crept South of the Border. Now aided and abetted with a very able First Minister who stands up for Scotland, the English are waking up.
Make no mistake, The Herald is a Unionist paper, but they just had to decide what was the lesser of two evils, Writing this article to try and defuse the debate, and tell Scots what they already know; or let the English debate in SE English papers continue unanswered.
But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts.
You can expect this to be the NEW LIE. "We never said that Scotland was being subsidised...."
What Ian Gray is saying is the English Economy would suffer with an Independent Scotland - tough Scotland Economy has suffered with the Union.
you're quite right - it really does seem a last ditch attempt and hopefully the last nail in the "can we be independent argument " the new argument will be "should we be independent?" And good luck to the unionists if they think they can argue that Scotland will be better off living off handouts.
Posted by: katie boyle on 11:59am Sat 3 Nov 07
this is dynamite from mcwhirter in guardian
"Scots are not fools; they can add up. They realise only too well that, as an independent nation, Scotland would be one of the wealthiest
countries in the world."
this is dynamite from mcwhirter in guardian
"Scots are not fools; they can add up. They realise only too well that, as an independent nation, Scotland would be one of the wealthiest
countries in the world."
Posted by: Iain on 11:59am Sat 3 Nov 07
I suspect unionist will wish this article and the Herald investigation are just a bad dream and they will wake up soon.
I suspect unionist will wish this article and the Herald investigation are just a bad dream and they will wake up soon.
Posted by: Iain on 12:08pm Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote][bold]Macuistean[/bold] wrote:
But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts. Please Mr Gray could someone, anyone, tell me how Scotland is better off. We have been classed as parasites and beggars by the English media, among others, but it is us who have been paying our way and more. Please, please can someone tell me what we get from this Union?[/quote] The logical conclusion of Iain Gray's argument, particularly with respect to climate change is that we should have a European (or even a worldwide) superstate. Of course even in a world superstate the unionist would still rant that Scotland's interests are best served by being represented as part of Britain when sitting alongside giants like the USA or Denmark or Portugal
Macuistean wrote:
But Iain Gray, Labour's shadow finance secretary, argued that the figures showed that Scotland was better off as part of Great Britain. "This has never been about subsidies," he said. "It's about the fact that all parts of the UK are better off together. Our combined economies are greater as a whole than the collective sum of these individual parts. Please Mr Gray could someone, anyone, tell me how Scotland is better off. We have been classed as parasites and beggars by the English media, among others, but it is us who have been paying our way and more. Please, please can someone tell me what we get from this Union?
The logical conclusion of Iain Gray's argument, particularly with respect to climate change is that we should have a European (or even a worldwide) superstate. Of course even in a world superstate the unionist would still rant that Scotland's interests are best served by being represented as part of Britain when sitting alongside giants like the USA or Denmark or Portugal
Posted by: Addison De Witt on 12:08pm Sat 3 Nov 07
But the bottom line is this.
The debate should not be about nickels and dimes.
I get more money than you do, its so unfair, blah blah blah.
Independence is about standing on your own two feet.
making decisions for yourself and being self reliant.
Scotland is like a 40 year old man still living with its mother .
Its time to grow up and get rid of that security blanket, the union .
Scotland gets a government it wants .
England gets a government it wants .
Simple . HUH . a goldfish could work it out.
But the bottom line is this.
The debate should not be about nickels and dimes.
I get more money than you do, its so unfair, blah blah blah.
Independence is about standing on your own two feet.
making decisions for yourself and being self reliant.
Scotland is like a 40 year old man still living with its mother .
Its time to grow up and get rid of that security blanket, the union .
Scotland gets a government it wants .
England gets a government it wants .
Simple . HUH . a goldfish could work it out.
Posted by: Addison De Witt on 12:22pm Sat 3 Nov 07
[quote][bold]katie boyle[/bold] wrote:
this is dynamite from mcwhirter in guardian
\"Scots are not fools; they can add up. They realise only too well that, as an independent nation, Scotland would be one of the wealthiest
countries in the world.\"[/quote] So why has Ian McWhirter been writing Labour unionist propaganda
for decades then. ??
katie boyle wrote:
this is dynamite from mcwhirter in guardian
\"Scots are not fools; they can add up. They realise only too well that, as an independent nation, Scotland would be one of the wealthiest
countries in the world.\"
So why has Ian McWhirter been writing Labour unionist propaganda
for decades then. ??
Posted by: dws on 12:31pm Sat 3 Nov 07
This volte-face by Labour would appear to be akin to Scrooge'sepiphany on Chrismas morning.
While I welcome the admission that Scotland is not the economic basket case Labour once claimed she was, I would question the reasoning behind such a change.
The information "uncovered" by yesterdays report has long been available, but only when it hits the press are Labour galvanised into action.
Don't let them forget the keech they've been spouting up until now.
This volte-face by Labour would appear to be akin to Scrooge'sepiphany on Chrismas morning.
While I welcome the admission that Scotland is not the economic basket case Labour once claimed she was, I would question the reasoning behind such a change.
The information "uncovered" by yesterdays report has long been available, but only when it hits the press are Labour galvanised into action.
Don't let them forget the keech they've been spouting up until now.
Posted by: Im not really here on 12:42pm Sat 3 Nov 07
pehman, sussex:
Read you comments - thanks. I was just pointing out that The Herald is hardly a champion of Independence.
I asked this one question some weeks ago and, from unionists, only got evasive answers:
"If there was a situation (not live and death) where the rest of the union would benefit, but it would be clearly to Scotland's DETRIMENT, would you go for it?"
Pretty simple question, and the answer has a lot to do with where people's allegiance lies.
pehman, sussex:
Read you comments - thanks. I was just pointing out that The Herald is hardly a champion of Independence.
I asked this one question some weeks ago and, from unionists, only got evasive answers:
"If there was a situation (not live and death) where the rest of the union would benefit, but it would be clearly to Scotland's DETRIMENT, would you go for it?"
Pretty simple question, and the answer has a lot to do with where people's allegiance lies.
Posted by: juan Kerr and his other hand....., AM2 TALKS KEEK! on 12:51pm Sat 3 Nov 07
The Arch propenent and one man propogandist AM2 is currently getting battered all over the Hootsmon blogs about labour finally admiting scotland can be wealthier on its own
http://news.scotsman
.com/politics.cfm?id
=1751452007 - please remove spaces as required.
Njoy and please sign the list for those who thinks he has lied consistently and wish to make this point public.
The Arch propenent and one man propogandist AM2 is currently getting battered all over the Hootsmon blogs about labour finally admiting scotland can be wealthier on its own
http://news.scotsman
.com/politics.cfm?id
=1751452007 - please remove spaces as required.
Njoy and please sign the list for those who thinks he has lied consistently and wish to make this point public.
Posted by: indyleith, Edinburgh on 1:07pm Sat 3 Nov 07
Like others have said im very very curious and suspicious about what labour are up to with this but one thing is for sure. Id NEVER EVER trust them to tell the truth. Their political careers depend on it, history has shown us that. Wait for the feartie 3 to come out of their unionist talk shop with the biggest con since they said the oil would be no more and Scotland couldnt run itself.
Do Not be fooled by the media too.
If labour had got back in power in may they would be telling us all we are still basket cases who are subsidised and the media would be gloating that the SNP were finished and the union was the answer.
DO NOT BE FOOLED.
They are desperate and im afraid its game set and match to Scotland.
INdependence is in striking distance. I can SEE it.
Like others have said im very very curious and suspicious about what labour are up to with this but one thing is for sure. Id NEVER EVER trust them to tell the truth. Their political careers depend on it, history has shown us that. Wait for the feartie 3 to come out of their unionist talk shop with the biggest con since they said the oil would be no more and Scotland couldnt run itself.
Do Not be fooled by the media too.
If labour had got back in power in may they would be telling us all we are still basket cases who are subsidised and the media would be gloating that the SNP were finished and the union was the answer.
DO NOT BE FOOLED.
They are desperate and im afraid its game set and match to Scotland.
INdependence is in striking distance. I can SEE it.
Posted by: katie Boyle on 1:14pm Sat 3 Nov 07
Dear Addison de witt
that is why it is dynamite :-)
Dear Addison de witt
that is why it is dynamite :-)
Posted by: Paul, Haddington on 1:24pm Sat 3 Nov 07
Iain Gray is peddling the same old nonsense.
Can he explain why Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the other Gulf State seem to do rather well out of their oil dominated economy.
There's a definite smell of desperation in the air from Iain, who, let's remember, was Alastair Darling's right hand man before he was elected.
Iain Gray is peddling the same old nonsense.
Can he explain why Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the other Gulf State seem to do rather well out of their oil dominated economy.
There's a definite smell of desperation in the air from Iain, who, let's remember, was Alastair Darling's right hand man before he was elected.
Posted by: Wisnaeme on 2:00pm Sat 3 Nov 07
.
Ah weel, time tae reserect yon auld sang fer ra comrades,(peoples party version circa 2007) as ra red flag dis nae suit thur purposes nae mair.
Whit wus them wurds agin? Aye, ah mind noo.
Such a parcel o rougues in a nation.
Unionist Labartorium version; [bold]Bought and sold fer Scottish gold[/bold]
Shurely some mistake? Naw, ah'll jist comply wae ra trade discriptions act ; it's black an runny an flows sooth.
.
.
Ah weel, time tae reserect yon auld sang fer ra comrades,(peoples party version circa 2007) as ra red flag dis nae suit thur purposes nae mair.
Whit wus them wurds agin? Aye, ah mind noo.
Such a parcel o rougues in a nation.
Unionist Labartorium version;
Bought and sold fer Scottish gold
Shurely some mistake? Naw, ah'll jist comply wae ra trade discriptions act ; it's black an runny an flows sooth.
.
Posted by: davesubsea, Morgan City LA on 2:26pm Sat 3 Nov 07
If the price of oil stays high, hmmmm can't see it coming down it will go higher, should break $100 a barrel next week.
How much does the Westminster purse take from the Whisky Distilleries? That's been kept quiet, does anyone have any figures?
This week the BP green energy project that was to have been built in Peterhead has now been moved to the Middle East, the project was worth over £600,000,000 but all is lost due to Westminster 's dithering. The truth of the matter is it's yet an other case of Westminster not looking after Scotland's best interests.
Would there have been the same dithering if the plant were built outside London, I doubt it.......
If the price of oil stays high, hmmmm can't see it coming down it will go higher, should break $100 a barrel next week.
How much does the Westminster purse take from the Whisky Distilleries? That's been kept quiet, does anyone have any figures?
This week the BP green energy project that was to have been built in Peterhead has now been moved to the Middle East, the project was worth over £600,000,000 but all is lost due to Westminster 's dithering. The truth of the matter is it's yet an other case of Westminster not looking after Scotland's best interests.
Would there have been the same dithering if the plant were built outside London, I doubt it.......
Posted by: Kinghob on 2:33pm Sat 3 Nov 07
The real point is that every 'initiative' that the Westminster politicians attempt to keep their bisto and water active and not going cold and solid is an amateur affair, they can't help but be average at everything they do because they are only ever looking after themselves and the few that benefit from the type of controlling government they hope to continue with.
We are different, our Scottish Government is different, and the unionist politicians will make a total arse of themselves trying to lie about the total misinformation they and their previous peers have thrown at us for 300 years in general, and at least the last 40 years.
It is very difficult to imagine anything the likes of Cairns or indeed Brown have said only a few weeks ago suddenly being forgotten now that the truth is out.
The real point is that every 'initiative' that the Westminster politicians attempt to keep their bisto and water active and not going cold and solid is an amateur affair, they can't help but be average at everything they do because they are only ever looking after themselves and the few that benefit from the type of controlling government they hope to continue with.
We are different, our Scottish Government is different, and the unionist politicians will make a total arse of themselves trying to lie about the total misinformation they and their previous peers have thrown at us for 300 years in general, and at least the last 40 years.
It is very difficult to imagine anything the likes of Cairns or indeed Brown have said only a few weeks ago suddenly being forgotten now that the truth is out.
Posted by: davesubsea, Morgan City LA on 2:44pm Sat 3 Nov 07
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