
Scotland’s European policy on hold
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| GORDON BROWN: Believes treaty does not need vote. |
The Scottish Government has put its European policy in limbo, leaving uncertainty over its role in a referendum on the proposed treaty.
The change has come as the Westminster administration is coming under intense pressure to hold a referendum on the revised version of the European constitution, now known as a treaty. Three former Labour ministers yesterday took part in the launch of a cross-party campaign for a referendum.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said the constitution's text has changed sufficiently for it to be supported by the UK Government without a referendum, and that Britain has won the exemptions it demanded. But he faces calls from the opposition, trade unions and around 120 of his own Labour backbenchers who say there should be a public vote on the proposals.
The Scottish National Party used to be in favour of a referendum, and was committed to campaigning against the constitution as it stood two years ago. That was because the document gave exclusive rights to Brussels institutions to control fisheries.
But while the party still argues for national control of fisheries, it has opted not to engage in the debate over the treaty. Now that it is in government, it has agreed to work within the constraints of the Common Fisheries Policy.
A senior SNP source said the party is not sure whether it wants a referendum, and if there is one, it is not sure which way it would campaign.
That is being left until after Mr Brown attends a European summit next month, which is expected to finalise the text of the treaty.
It is understood that the SNP will debate its stance on Europe and come to a new position at its annual conference, which takes place not long after the summit.
It may be forced to take a clearer position before then by the European and external relations committee of the Scottish parliament, which agreed this week that it wants to call the Europe minister, Linda Fabiani, to explain the administration's approach.
| ‘I think we owe it as a matter of trust to ask the people ’ | |
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But the pressure is far greater at Westminster, where the I Want a Referendum Campaign was launched outside Parliament, with a warning that failure to give the public a say would erode democracy and increase voter cynicism.
The drive unites Eurosceptic and pro-European MPs who insist it is neither a campaign for a No vote nor a poll on whether the UK should remain in the EU.
The campaign is chaired by Derek Scott, Tony Blair's former economic adviser.
Gisela Stuart, who was Labour's appointee to the European convention that drafted the original constitution, argued: "It is not sufficient to say that because we are a parliamentary democracy there shouldn't be occasions when we do have a referendum and ask the people. It is a significant treaty which Parliament cannot amend and I think we do owe it as a matter of trust to ask the people."
Kate Hoey, a former Labour sports minister, commented: "We all feel particularly strongly about a referendum because, in all our party manifestos, it was clear that we would have a referendum.
"Probably most people who have read the detail over the summer will know that there is so little difference between the constitution and the treaty.
"We need the referendum which is why it is very important that this is an all-party campaign and will grow from strength to strength."
Senior Conservative MP David Heathcoat-Amory, a former Foreign Office minister, said: "We all have very different political opinions about the future of the country, but we all agree that people should be given a choice.
"Democracy drains away when all the decisions that ought to be made here in Parliament are made for us by people we don't elect and can't remove.
"So we are all coming together for democracy and the supreme democracy is giving people a choice about how they wish to be governed."
www.iwantareferendum.org
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Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 10:54pm Thu 6 Sep 07
[quote]A senior SNP source said the party is not sure whether it wants a referendum, and if there is one, it is not sure which way it would campaign.[/quote]
Poor Douglas, spoiling a reasonable article and undermining his professionalism by clumsily sticking this little piece of 'troll food' right in the middle....sigh!
Douglas, it sticks out like a sore thumb....[bold]Why did you do it man[/bold] ?
A senior SNP source said the party is not sure whether it wants a referendum, and if there is one, it is not sure which way it would campaign.
Poor Douglas, spoiling a reasonable article and undermining his professionalism by clumsily sticking this little piece of 'troll food' right in the middle....sigh!
Douglas, it sticks out like a sore thumb....
Why did you do it man ?
Posted by: doonhamer on 12:14am Fri 7 Sep 07
Labour has a real problem with referendums. It fears that the voters may choose an answer that they will not like.
A simpler solution would be to hold a Westminster election and let the issue be debated on the hustings.
Labour has a real problem with referendums. It fears that the voters may choose an answer that they will not like.
A simpler solution would be to hold a Westminster election and let the issue be debated on the hustings.
Posted by: British/Scottish and proud on 1:26am Fri 7 Sep 07
Labour, Conservatives, Lib/Dems, Plaid Cymru and the SNP all promised a referendum on the constitution.
Labour were waiting for all the other countries in the EU to hold their referendums before holding one in the UK as they expected them all to agree to it then that way it did not matter what the UK voted as all the other would have voted yes.
Unfortunately for Labour and the EU France and Holland voted against it.
The EU has changed some of the wording and called it a treaty instead of a constitution as the countries do not have to hold a referendum on a treaty and they can get their constitution through in every way but for the name.
The SNP (or their supporters at least) claim the unionist parties in Scotland are undemocratic because they will not hold a referendum on independence even though they said they would not are now trying to wriggle out of holding one on the EU.
Labour, Conservatives, Lib/Dems, Plaid Cymru and the SNP all promised a referendum on the constitution.
Labour were waiting for all the other countries in the EU to hold their referendums before holding one in the UK as they expected them all to agree to it then that way it did not matter what the UK voted as all the other would have voted yes.
Unfortunately for Labour and the EU France and Holland voted against it.
The EU has changed some of the wording and called it a treaty instead of a constitution as the countries do not have to hold a referendum on a treaty and they can get their constitution through in every way but for the name.
The SNP (or their supporters at least) claim the unionist parties in Scotland are undemocratic because they will not hold a referendum on independence even though they said they would not are now trying to wriggle out of holding one on the EU.
Posted by: ADDISON DE WITT, At my villa, overlooking Sugar Loaf Mountain, Rio De Janeiro on 3:55am Fri 7 Sep 07
[quote][bold]British/Scottish and proud[/bold] wrote:
Labour, Conservatives, Lib/Dems, Plaid Cymru and the SNP all promised a referendum on the constitution.
Labour were waiting for all the other countries in the EU to hold their referendums before holding one in the UK as they expected them all to agree to it then that way it did not matter what the UK voted as all the other would have voted yes.
Unfortunately for Labour and the EU France and Holland voted against it.
The EU has changed some of the wording and called it a treaty instead of a constitution as the countries do not have to hold a referendum on a treaty and they can get their constitution through in every way but for the name.
The SNP (or their supporters at least) claim the unionist parties in Scotland are undemocratic because they will not hold a referendum on independence even though they said they would not are now trying to wriggle out of holding one on the EU.[/quote]
BRITISH/ SCOTTISH
You sound like a SCHIZOPHRENIC CROSS DRESSER.
You dont know if your Arthur or Martha.
I hope in time you will make up your mind.
Theres a good boy.
Your Obedient Servant
Addison De Witt
.
British/Scottish and proud wrote:
Labour, Conservatives, Lib/Dems, Plaid Cymru and the SNP all promised a referendum on the constitution.
Labour were waiting for all the other countries in the EU to hold their referendums before holding one in the UK as they expected them all to agree to it then that way it did not matter what the UK voted as all the other would have voted yes.
Unfortunately for Labour and the EU France and Holland voted against it.
The EU has changed some of the wording and called it a treaty instead of a constitution as the countries do not have to hold a referendum on a treaty and they can get their constitution through in every way but for the name.
The SNP (or their supporters at least) claim the unionist parties in Scotland are undemocratic because they will not hold a referendum on independence even though they said they would not are now trying to wriggle out of holding one on the EU.
BRITISH/ SCOTTISH
You sound like a SCHIZOPHRENIC CROSS DRESSER.
You dont know if your Arthur or Martha.
I hope in time you will make up your mind.
Theres a good boy.
Your Obedient Servant
Addison De Witt
.
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 6:50am Fri 7 Sep 07
[quote]The SNP (or their supporters at least) claim the unionist parties in Scotland are undemocratic because they will not hold a referendum on independence even though they said they would not are now trying to wriggle out of holding one on the EU.[/quote]
And the first troll up for a nibble at the titbit laid on by our Douglas is:
British/Scottish and proud.
Guys, do yourselves a favour, this was a clumsy attempt by Douglas....it has been rumbled.
The SNP (or their supporters at least) claim the unionist parties in Scotland are undemocratic because they will not hold a referendum on independence even though they said they would not are now trying to wriggle out of holding one on the EU.
And the first troll up for a nibble at the titbit laid on by our Douglas is:
British/Scottish and proud.
Guys, do yourselves a favour, this was a clumsy attempt by Douglas....it has been rumbled.
Posted by: bigreast, Easter on 7:44am Fri 7 Sep 07
Addison etc - why do you resort to insult from the outset?
(actually why do you see the need to resort to insult at all, but it is worse when you do so without the normal interlude of reasoned argument, to misquote Clemenceau)?
Addison etc - why do you resort to insult from the outset?
(actually why do you see the need to resort to insult at all, but it is worse when you do so without the normal interlude of reasoned argument, to misquote Clemenceau)?
Posted by: Dave, Scottish NOT British on 11:02am Fri 7 Sep 07
I'd be happy to see a referendum on the EU. I believe that most folk in Scotland are broadly well-meaning towards the idea of the EU as a community of nations working and trading together. Scotland would have much more influence as an equal and independent member of this community than it does now as a second-rate region, whose interests are a mere afterthought to the UK Foreign office. I also believe people are more positive about the EU in Scotland than in England, where the feeling is quite negative. BUT - I belive people here have yet to be convinced of the idea of further integration, so maybe a debate will help clarify the way forward. Two points though:
1) If Scotland votes YES and England votes NO, what then?
2) If we get a referendum on the EU it would be difficult for the Labour government to deny Scotland the right to a democratic say over the future of Scotland within the UK. They know that Scotland is slowly but surely going its own way and that Independence is just a matter of time.
I'd be happy to see a referendum on the EU. I believe that most folk in Scotland are broadly well-meaning towards the idea of the EU as a community of nations working and trading together. Scotland would have much more influence as an equal and independent member of this community than it does now as a second-rate region, whose interests are a mere afterthought to the UK Foreign office. I also believe people are more positive about the EU in Scotland than in England, where the feeling is quite negative. BUT - I belive people here have yet to be convinced of the idea of further integration, so maybe a debate will help clarify the way forward. Two points though:
1) If Scotland votes YES and England votes NO, what then?
2) If we get a referendum on the EU it would be difficult for the Labour government to deny Scotland the right to a democratic say over the future of Scotland within the UK. They know that Scotland is slowly but surely going its own way and that Independence is just a matter of time.
Posted by: Gr8 on 3:50pm Fri 7 Sep 07
ADDISON DE WITT (who is more than likely EVA BROWN as you both use bizarre spacing and use the enter key a bit too early, only difference being the name, you have sorted your CAPS LOCK problem and your posts are also a bit shorter now thank goodness.)
British / Scottish clearly has a different view to you but he makes a good point that if they promised a referendum then we should get one, however there is no need to come with abuse and without even suggesting what your view is... or are you just telling us you're not a big fan of Eddie Izzard?
Salmond is a big fan of the EU. I am a fan of independence or fiscal autonomy but not the EU (in its current form, I would like to see it's influence revert back to solely a free trade zone as was voted for). There is no point stopping paying money to one centralised government only to leave that union and pay money to another. As the oil and natural resources we have make us a rich country in the eyes of the EU and with all the new "poorer" members who have joined, our wealth (rather than being invested into our future and building a stable economy, will be sucked into Brussel's (why do you think that Norway has refrained from becoming a member of the EU? And they have less oil reserves than us!)
We need a referendum.
ADDISON DE WITT (who is more than likely EVA BROWN as you both use bizarre spacing and use the enter key a bit too early, only difference being the name, you have sorted your CAPS LOCK problem and your posts are also a bit shorter now thank goodness.)
British / Scottish clearly has a different view to you but he makes a good point that if they promised a referendum then we should get one, however there is no need to come with abuse and without even suggesting what your view is... or are you just telling us you're not a big fan of Eddie Izzard?
Salmond is a big fan of the EU. I am a fan of independence or fiscal autonomy but not the EU (in its current form, I would like to see it's influence revert back to solely a free trade zone as was voted for). There is no point stopping paying money to one centralised government only to leave that union and pay money to another. As the oil and natural resources we have make us a rich country in the eyes of the EU and with all the new "poorer" members who have joined, our wealth (rather than being invested into our future and building a stable economy, will be sucked into Brussel's (why do you think that Norway has refrained from becoming a member of the EU? And they have less oil reserves than us!)
We need a referendum.
Posted by: Rob Campbell on 5:31pm Fri 7 Sep 07
Addison de Witt, de witless, the witless Addison.
That´s the trouble with computers and the internet: the illiterate are assuming the job of the monkey who´s trying to write the complete works of Shakespeare.
Addison de Witt, de witless, the witless Addison.
That´s the trouble with computers and the internet: the illiterate are assuming the job of the monkey who´s trying to write the complete works of Shakespeare.
Posted by: Kinghob on 7:14pm Fri 7 Sep 07
[quote]British / Scottish clearly has a different view to you but he makes a good point that if they promised a referendum then we should get one,[/quote]
On Gordon Brown's terms?
On terms related to what is best for the big picture of the UK rather than Scotland?
I would hope not!
Any referendum Scotland has on Europe shouldn't be about the terms that suit Westminster-we have seen what that did to our Fishing Industry.
The tories don't want a referendum for the high and mighty rhetorical reason given about "democracy" and "the people', but because they want to play political football with the European question to get a defeat for Brown and Labour, and therefore help themselves get a foothold in Westminster.
The Scottish government deserve to think carefully about any referendum, though Brown and co are welcome to have one, or those within their own strained party will try to get one for their own reasons, but they appear very divided on the issue.
British / Scottish clearly has a different view to you but he makes a good point that if they promised a referendum then we should get one,
On Gordon Brown's terms?
On terms related to what is best for the big picture of the UK rather than Scotland?
I would hope not!
Any referendum Scotland has on Europe shouldn't be about the terms that suit Westminster-we have seen what that did to our Fishing Industry.
The tories don't want a referendum for the high and mighty rhetorical reason given about "democracy" and "the people', but because they want to play political football with the European question to get a defeat for Brown and Labour, and therefore help themselves get a foothold in Westminster.
The Scottish government deserve to think carefully about any referendum, though Brown and co are welcome to have one, or those within their own strained party will try to get one for their own reasons, but they appear very divided on the issue.
Posted by: ADDISON DE WITT, On a Horse Playing Polo The Buenos Aires Country Club on 3:49am Sat 8 Sep 07
Dear Gr8
The reason why I write in capitals, Ive got very bad eye sight and
I keep losing my monocle.
British / Scottish
The point of my remark was you cant serve two masters at once.
Theres a conflict of interests.
You either serve Scotland or London.
Cross Dressing.
Joke McConnal could dress up like CARMEN MIRANDA
and GOOSE STEP UP AND DOWN THE CHAMPS ELYSEES.
All day long. I wouldnt be bothered.
Although it would be difficult in High Heels on those cobbles.
EVA BRAUN.
Im going on a date with her tonight.
TANGO DANCING at the local night club.
BUENOS NOCHES
Your Obedient Servant
Addison De Witt
.
Dear Gr8
The reason why I write in capitals, Ive got very bad eye sight and
I keep losing my monocle.
British / Scottish
The point of my remark was you cant serve two masters at once.
Theres a conflict of interests.
You either serve Scotland or London.
Cross Dressing.
Joke McConnal could dress up like CARMEN MIRANDA
and GOOSE STEP UP AND DOWN THE CHAMPS ELYSEES.
All day long. I wouldnt be bothered.
Although it would be difficult in High Heels on those cobbles.
EVA BRAUN.
Im going on a date with her tonight.
TANGO DANCING at the local night club.
BUENOS NOCHES
Your Obedient Servant
Addison De Witt
.
