Massive drop in anti-social behaviour after Fife alcohol crackdown
A community in Scotland has seen anti-social behaviour drop by almost 60% after a ban on alcohol sales to under-21s.
Off-sales in both Cupar in Fife and the neighbouring village of Springfield have trialled a voluntary restriction on the sales of drink on Friday and Saturday night.
And police there have seen a fall in offences of almost 45% since the scheme started, with a drop of just under 60% in the number of anti-social crimes.
The Scottish Government has put forward proposals for a national under-21s sales ban in off-licences as part of measures to cut alcohol-fuelled crime and health problems.
The move has been backed by doctors, but has been criticised by some opposition politicians, retail chiefs and students groups.
Today public health minister Shona Robison said the scheme in Cupar showed such initiatives could make a big difference to people's quality of life.
Ms Robison said: "I think there are huge long term health benefits from cutting down on alcohol intake and, for young people, delaying the age at which they start drinking regularly in order to develop a more mature relationship with alcohol.
"But what this pilot shows is that, when the police, retailers and residents work together we can have a huge impact on anti-social behaviour for the good of the whole community."
The minister continued: "Raising the off-sales alcohol age to 21 is just one of our proposals to tackle alcohol misuse, which costs Scotland more than £2.25 billion per year.
"We've also suggested having a minimum price for a unit of alcohol to end 'pocket money pricing' of some high-strength drinks and a social responsibility fee for some retailers.
"Taken together, we think our proposals could help bring about the cultural shift in attitudes to alcohol we think is needed, in order for Scotland to reach its full potential."
Inspector Craig Dewar, from Fife Police, said the Cupar initiative was based on a previous scheme in Armadale, West Lothian.
In a bid to tackle problems of under age drinking and youth disorder in the community, Insp Dewar led a series of meetings with local off-sales retailers.
That resulted in the pilot scheme, which began on June 27 and runs to August 2, being put in place.
Insp Dewar said: "The object of this trial is to disrupt the supply of alcohol to under age persons and have a positive impact on the quality of life of Cupar residents.
"Compared to the crime levels of the three weeks leading up to the start of the campaign, there was a 58% reduction in the number of calls to the police concerning anti-social behaviour, with a 44% reduction in the commission of anti-social crimes."
But he added: "The success of the scheme is primarily due to the support of the retailers in Cupar and the neighbouring village of Springfield, who have been 100% behind it."
Local businessman Paul Caira, 43, welcomed the scheme.
Mr Caira, who owns the Central Cafe in Cupar, said: "We had a lot of young kids hanging around outside the cafe and it was very intimidating for the customers, especially in the evenings.
"We're now not selling to under 21s on a Friday and Saturday between 4pm and 10pm and I've really noticed the difference. Now, there are hardly any young people hanging around on the streets and the ones you do see are not under the influence."
He added he believed the scheme had also cut down on the number of older teenagers who were buying booze for younger friends.
Councillor Andrew Rodger, the chair of Fife Council's Licensing Board, also praised the pilot scheme.
He said: "We welcome initiatives such as this and it's terrific to see it has been such a success.
"This scheme in Cupar tackles two main areas - protecting children from harm and preventing public nuisance and disorder and it is a model I hope other areas in Fife choose to follow."
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Posted by: Alkie, NYC on 1:47pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Imagine what would happen if you banned alcohol sales to EVERYONE.
The NHS would save over [italic]7 billion pounds annually[/italic]. How much would that cut waiting lines and pay for more nurses and services?
Crime would plummet because 70% of all violent crimes are committed against or by someone who is under the influence of alcohol.
Families would stop breaking up so quickly. 60% of marriages now end in divorce. It is unknown how many of the divorces are related to alcohol, but you can guarantee it is high.
Domestic violence rates would plummet. 80% of domestic violence cases involve the attacker being influenced by alcohol.
Billions would be saved on losses in the economy due to alcohol.
Thousands of Scots would live rather than die each year as a result of alcohol related deaths. The average life span of the Scot would likely increase by about 5 years.
Alcohol does nothing good for the society, family, and individual.
It is the deadliest and most dangerous drug in Scotland.
Yet it is legal.
Explain that to me.
Prohibition Scotland.
Imagine what would happen if you banned alcohol sales to EVERYONE.
The NHS would save over
7 billion pounds annually. How much would that cut waiting lines and pay for more nurses and services?
Crime would plummet because 70% of all violent crimes are committed against or by someone who is under the influence of alcohol.
Families would stop breaking up so quickly. 60% of marriages now end in divorce. It is unknown how many of the divorces are related to alcohol, but you can guarantee it is high.
Domestic violence rates would plummet. 80% of domestic violence cases involve the attacker being influenced by alcohol.
Billions would be saved on losses in the economy due to alcohol.
Thousands of Scots would live rather than die each year as a result of alcohol related deaths. The average life span of the Scot would likely increase by about 5 years.
Alcohol does nothing good for the society, family, and individual.
It is the deadliest and most dangerous drug in Scotland.
Yet it is legal.
Explain that to me.
Prohibition Scotland.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:57pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Wacky Alkie[quote]Imagine what would happen if you banned alcohol sales to EVERYONE.[/quote] you'd be treating adults as children, or like you, intellectually subnormal.
Domestic violence is perpetrated by sober men. Drink aggravates their natural aggression, or blots out the memory.
Now, stop playing silly buggers!
In the States anybody under 21, and without driver licence-photo identity cannot get served in a bar or a store checkout. In cities and towns drinking on the sidewalk is often illegal or frowned upon.
It's as easy as that.
Lets extend the Fife experiment to all of Scotland.
And let's dump Wacky Alkie ina vat of vinegar, where he belongs.
Wacky Alkie
Imagine what would happen if you banned alcohol sales to EVERYONE.
you'd be treating adults as children, or like you, intellectually subnormal.
Domestic violence is perpetrated by sober men. Drink aggravates their natural aggression, or blots out the memory.
Now, stop playing silly buggers!
In the States anybody under 21, and without driver licence-photo identity cannot get served in a bar or a store checkout. In cities and towns drinking on the sidewalk is often illegal or frowned upon.
It's as easy as that.
Lets extend the Fife experiment to all of Scotland.
And let's dump Wacky Alkie ina vat of vinegar, where he belongs.
Posted by: Pat Roller, Trollcross on 2:21pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Imagine if they banned [bold]Alkie the Troll[/bold] .
Imagine if they banned
Alkie the Troll .
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 2:30pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Alkie[/bold] wrote:
Imagine what would happen if you banned alcohol sales to EVERYONE.
The NHS would save over [italic]7 billion pounds annually[/italic]. How much would that cut waiting lines and pay for more nurses and services?
Crime would plummet because 70% of all violent crimes are committed against or by someone who is under the influence of alcohol.
Families would stop breaking up so quickly. 60% of marriages now end in divorce. It is unknown how many of the divorces are related to alcohol, but you can guarantee it is high.
Domestic violence rates would plummet. 80% of domestic violence cases involve the attacker being influenced by alcohol.
Billions would be saved on losses in the economy due to alcohol.
Thousands of Scots would live rather than die each year as a result of alcohol related deaths. The average life span of the Scot would likely increase by about 5 years.
Alcohol does nothing good for the society, family, and individual.
It is the deadliest and most dangerous drug in Scotland.
Yet it is legal.
Explain that to me.
Prohibition Scotland.[/quote]
Heroin is illegal but is still readily available.
Prohibition of alcohol has been tried before. It did more harm than good.
Alkie wrote:
Imagine what would happen if you banned alcohol sales to EVERYONE.
The NHS would save over 7 billion pounds annually. How much would that cut waiting lines and pay for more nurses and services?
Crime would plummet because 70% of all violent crimes are committed against or by someone who is under the influence of alcohol.
Families would stop breaking up so quickly. 60% of marriages now end in divorce. It is unknown how many of the divorces are related to alcohol, but you can guarantee it is high.
Domestic violence rates would plummet. 80% of domestic violence cases involve the attacker being influenced by alcohol.
Billions would be saved on losses in the economy due to alcohol.
Thousands of Scots would live rather than die each year as a result of alcohol related deaths. The average life span of the Scot would likely increase by about 5 years.
Alcohol does nothing good for the society, family, and individual.
It is the deadliest and most dangerous drug in Scotland.
Yet it is legal.
Explain that to me.
Prohibition Scotland.
Heroin is illegal but is still readily available.
Prohibition of alcohol has been tried before. It did more harm than good.
Posted by: willie mac, Arden on 2:35pm Wed 23 Jul 08
The SNP are to be applauded for trying to do something about the flood of alcohol that is fuelling so much violence and crime.
The correlation between the ubiquitous availabilty of cheap alcohol and consuption is well understood.
Alcohol, is more available now that it has ever been, and it is also cheaper than it has ever been. Super-strong lagers and white ciders can be seen stacked high on supermarket and shelves and orner shops around the country.
As the crime, violence and health issues proliferate across our country previous administrations have done nothing to restarin the growing tide of misery that cheap alcohol is reaping.
This SNP government are to be commended for trying to do something to reverse the problem, and as this experiment in Fife shows it seems they are on the right track.
The Labour Party oppose the SNP's proposals, as do the conservatives and big business. But we don't have to guess to hard why they oppose the SNP's proposals.
Something needs to be done and if a trial restriction of sales on a Friday and Saturday night can effect a 60% reduction in anti social crime, then we owe it to our society to proceed with the SNP's proposals.
And yes, I like a glass of wine, or three and yes I take the pint too.
[italic][bold]Footnote[/bold] [/italic] - Norway restricts supermarket sales of all beer and wine after around 4.00 pm on a Saturday until Monday lunchtime. They too have had difficulty with problem drinking, and do this over the weekend as part of a range of measures to restrain problem drinking.
The SNP are to be applauded for trying to do something about the flood of alcohol that is fuelling so much violence and crime.
The correlation between the ubiquitous availabilty of cheap alcohol and consuption is well understood.
Alcohol, is more available now that it has ever been, and it is also cheaper than it has ever been. Super-strong lagers and white ciders can be seen stacked high on supermarket and shelves and orner shops around the country.
As the crime, violence and health issues proliferate across our country previous administrations have done nothing to restarin the growing tide of misery that cheap alcohol is reaping.
This SNP government are to be commended for trying to do something to reverse the problem, and as this experiment in Fife shows it seems they are on the right track.
The Labour Party oppose the SNP's proposals, as do the conservatives and big business. But we don't have to guess to hard why they oppose the SNP's proposals.
Something needs to be done and if a trial restriction of sales on a Friday and Saturday night can effect a 60% reduction in anti social crime, then we owe it to our society to proceed with the SNP's proposals.
And yes, I like a glass of wine, or three and yes I take the pint too.
Footnote - Norway restricts supermarket sales of all beer and wine after around 4.00 pm on a Saturday until Monday lunchtime. They too have had difficulty with problem drinking, and do this over the weekend as part of a range of measures to restrain problem drinking.
Posted by: Rab Jones, Glasgow on 3:15pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Let's now see it in Glasgow.
Let's now see it in Glasgow.
Posted by: princess-fiona, eaglesham on 4:04pm Wed 23 Jul 08
It certainly would be interesting to see it carried out in Glasgow.
I would love my area to be tried out, just to see if it cuts down on the numbers of broken glass bottles seen in the park on a monday morning....
It certainly would be interesting to see it carried out in Glasgow.
I would love my area to be tried out, just to see if it cuts down on the numbers of broken glass bottles seen in the park on a monday morning....
Posted by: JohnM, Perth on 4:27pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Surprise. But well done on the initiative to cut sales to under 21s. Now it's almost a rarity if you walk along a city street without seeing someone drunk and disorderly or worse. The u-21s tend not to be able to handle the drink and so can get violent as a result. This ban may be painful for some but it's clearly having the right result for the rest of us who just want go about our way without this form of "entertainment".
Surprise. But well done on the initiative to cut sales to under 21s. Now it's almost a rarity if you walk along a city street without seeing someone drunk and disorderly or worse. The u-21s tend not to be able to handle the drink and so can get violent as a result. This ban may be painful for some but it's clearly having the right result for the rest of us who just want go about our way without this form of "entertainment".
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 4:52pm Wed 23 Jul 08
I think there is going to be a nasty outcome to all of this. People will take cheaper illegal substances at home and will harm themselves.
In Sweden where alcohal has been made very expensive young Swedes dip tampons in vodka and insert in their rectums. The alcohal goes straight into their blood stream. However they don't know how drunk they are going to get except that it's very, very drunk. And very very cheap.
This is the kind of place these policies will take our young!
I think there is going to be a nasty outcome to all of this. People will take cheaper illegal substances at home and will harm themselves.
In Sweden where alcohal has been made very expensive young Swedes dip tampons in vodka and insert in their rectums. The alcohal goes straight into their blood stream. However they don't know how drunk they are going to get except that it's very, very drunk. And very very cheap.
This is the kind of place these policies will take our young!
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 5:17pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Alex that is just urban myth I hope it sounds too much like the junkies in edinburg injecting heroin up their anus to be true.
Alex that is just urban myth I hope it sounds too much like the junkies in edinburg injecting heroin up their anus to be true.
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 5:28pm Wed 23 Jul 08
So how come the SNP reckons 18-21 year olds are not responsible enough to buy drink from an off sales yet 16-18 year olds are responsible enough to vote?
So how come the SNP reckons 18-21 year olds are not responsible enough to buy drink from an off sales yet 16-18 year olds are responsible enough to vote?
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 5:33pm Wed 23 Jul 08
and go to war baffled along with get married and have children
and go to war baffled along with get married and have children
Posted by: princess-fiona, eaglesham on 5:33pm Wed 23 Jul 08
baffled, you baffle me .
You think you would be pleased that a community had a 60 % reduction in anti-social behaviour.
But no , petty political point scoring.
You dont want a 60 % drop in anti social behaviour in your area then ?
baffled, you baffle me .
You think you would be pleased that a community had a 60 % reduction in anti-social behaviour.
But no , petty political point scoring.
You dont want a 60 % drop in anti social behaviour in your area then ?
Posted by: princess-fiona, eaglesham on 5:37pm Wed 23 Jul 08
I dont want to see 16 year olds going to war ...I dont think that is right in the slightest. I dont want to see any Scottish soldier going off to fight in any illeagal wars.
I dont want to see 16 year olds going to war ...I dont think that is right in the slightest. I dont want to see any Scottish soldier going off to fight in any illeagal wars.
Posted by: The Impartial Observer on 5:41pm Wed 23 Jul 08
This sounds like a promising result, but if the experiment becomes universal what's going to happen to students' social life? No more parties?
This sounds like a promising result, but if the experiment becomes universal what's going to happen to students' social life? No more parties?
Posted by: princess-fiona, eaglesham on 5:45pm Wed 23 Jul 08
they go to the union? and drink there. They can expose themselves and drink vast quanties of cheap cider and beer and then fall home....aaaaah the good old days
they go to the union? and drink there. They can expose themselves and drink vast quanties of cheap cider and beer and then fall home....aaaaah the good old days
Posted by: Mandy Pumps, Glasgow on 6:09pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Alkie you are a nutter go away! you are not capable of entering a balanced debate.
I want to see alcohol sales regulated more in Glasgow. I want to see shop keepers who sell alcohol to under age punished as though they were dealing drugs. I want to see people who buy alcohol for their underage realives and friends punished.
I want a Glass of good red wine along with my dinner aned Alkie thats what I'm gonna do right now cheers
Alkie you are a nutter go away! you are not capable of entering a balanced debate.
I want to see alcohol sales regulated more in Glasgow. I want to see shop keepers who sell alcohol to under age punished as though they were dealing drugs. I want to see people who buy alcohol for their underage realives and friends punished.
I want a Glass of good red wine along with my dinner aned Alkie thats what I'm gonna do right now cheers
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 6:31pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]princess-fiona[/bold] wrote:
I dont want to see 16 year olds going to war ...I dont think that is right in the slightest. I dont want to see any Scottish soldier going off to fight in any illeagal wars.
[/quote]
Baffled continues to push a negative agenda, let him do it.
He hasn't learned the lessons from labour's defeat in may 2007.
Baffled peddles fear and loathing
He's a hissing, slithering, 'belly to the ground' type of character
Labour will fail again because of the likes of him.
princess-fiona wrote:
I dont want to see 16 year olds going to war ...I dont think that is right in the slightest. I dont want to see any Scottish soldier going off to fight in any illeagal wars.
Baffled continues to push a negative agenda, let him do it.
He hasn't learned the lessons from labour's defeat in may 2007.
Baffled peddles fear and loathing
He's a hissing, slithering, 'belly to the ground' type of character
Labour will fail again because of the likes of him.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 6:32pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]baffled[/bold] wrote:
So how come the SNP reckons 18-21 year olds are not responsible enough to buy drink from an off sales yet 16-18 year olds are responsible enough to vote?[/quote]
Who miss the point spectacularly once again baffled.
Well done, consistency in your banality
baffled wrote:
So how come the SNP reckons 18-21 year olds are not responsible enough to buy drink from an off sales yet 16-18 year olds are responsible enough to vote?
Who miss the point spectacularly once again baffled.
Well done, consistency in your banality
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 8:19pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Well I have to say the cyber gnats cleared up that obvious inconsistency in their policies really well.
You could almost get the impression they don't actually have any answers.
Well I have to say the cyber gnats cleared up that obvious inconsistency in their policies really well.
You could almost get the impression they don't actually have any answers.
Posted by: Rev. S. Campbell, Bath on 8:41pm Wed 23 Jul 08
On the contrary - all the trials so far have shown that restricting off-sales to under-21s in fact IS the answer to anti-social drunkenness. Shame you're more concerned with propping up the corpse of the Labour party than improving the lives of the people of Scotland.
On the contrary - all the trials so far have shown that restricting off-sales to under-21s in fact IS the answer to anti-social drunkenness. Shame you're more concerned with propping up the corpse of the Labour party than improving the lives of the people of Scotland.
Posted by: Rev. S. Campbell, Bath on 8:42pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Oh, and most people don't vote when they're blind drunk.
Oh, and most people don't vote when they're blind drunk.
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 8:56pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Rev. S. Campbell[/bold] wrote:
Oh, and most people don't vote when they're blind drunk.[/quote]
No. But those whom this policy is aimed at start off sober with the intention of getting blind drunk. And the policy affects them when they are sober, i.e.when they go to buy drink, not once they are drunk.
So they are being judged to be too immature and irresponsible to [bold]purchase[/bold] alcohol.
Rev. S. Campbell wrote:
Oh, and most people don't vote when they're blind drunk.
No. But those whom this policy is aimed at start off sober with the intention of getting blind drunk. And the policy affects them when they are sober, i.e.when they go to buy drink, not once they are drunk.
So they are being judged to be too immature and irresponsible to
purchase alcohol.
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 9:15pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Precisely! ANOBODY who gets falling down drunk or causes aggro through drink is too immature and irresponsible to purchase alcohol!
BTW, will we ever hear anything constructive from you?
Precisely! ANOBODY who gets falling down drunk or causes aggro through drink is too immature and irresponsible to purchase alcohol!
BTW, will we ever hear anything constructive from you?
Posted by: Rev. S. Campbell, Bath on 9:15pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Don't be so ridiculous. Purchasing alcohol doesn't cause anti-social behaviour. Drinking it does.
Don't be so ridiculous. Purchasing alcohol doesn't cause anti-social behaviour. Drinking it does.
Posted by: naylabour, glasgow on 9:23pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]baffled[/bold] wrote:
So how come the SNP reckons 18-21 year olds are not responsible enough to buy drink from an off sales yet 16-18 year olds are responsible enough to vote?[/quote] the point is...a significant proportion of that age group are not responsible! you dont have to always relate both! scotland has a serious problem with this and doing nothing by using arguments like the one above just is not an option.
baffled wrote:
So how come the SNP reckons 18-21 year olds are not responsible enough to buy drink from an off sales yet 16-18 year olds are responsible enough to vote?
the point is...a significant proportion of that age group are not responsible! you dont have to always relate both! scotland has a serious problem with this and doing nothing by using arguments like the one above just is not an option.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 9:50pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Rev. S. Campbell[/bold] wrote:
On the contrary - all the trials so far have shown that restricting off-sales to under-21s in fact IS the answer to anti-social drunkenness. Shame you're more concerned with propping up the corpse of the Labour party than improving the lives of the people of Scotland.[/quote] If there is fact based evidence for bringing this in then fair do's. But to be honest with you so far I don't think there is. Do we have evidence that under 21's run amok in Hillhead home of Glasgow University for example ? Not that I have noticed. Perhaps it is a policy which should be targetted. Or is that too sensible to work.
Rev. S. Campbell wrote:
On the contrary - all the trials so far have shown that restricting off-sales to under-21s in fact IS the answer to anti-social drunkenness. Shame you're more concerned with propping up the corpse of the Labour party than improving the lives of the people of Scotland.
If there is fact based evidence for bringing this in then fair do's. But to be honest with you so far I don't think there is. Do we have evidence that under 21's run amok in Hillhead home of Glasgow University for example ? Not that I have noticed. Perhaps it is a policy which should be targetted. Or is that too sensible to work.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 10:15pm Wed 23 Jul 08
The act of voting or getting married doesn't involve any risk to anyone else. Drinking alcohol to excess can and does, as the casualty departments of our major hospitals will prove, especially at weekends. unfortunately the majority of the nation's teenagers have proved by their binge drinking that they are too immature to drink sensibly and enjoy themselves. They seem to equate alcohol consumption with getting drunk and causing trouble on the streets of our villages, towns and cities.
One point I do agree with though, is that under 18 years of age is too young to join the military and be trained to kill.
The act of voting or getting married doesn't involve any risk to anyone else. Drinking alcohol to excess can and does, as the casualty departments of our major hospitals will prove, especially at weekends. unfortunately the majority of the nation's teenagers have proved by their binge drinking that they are too immature to drink sensibly and enjoy themselves. They seem to equate alcohol consumption with getting drunk and causing trouble on the streets of our villages, towns and cities.
One point I do agree with though, is that under 18 years of age is too young to join the military and be trained to kill.
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 10:18pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Perhaps we should have a referendum to decide the issue.
Perhaps we should have a referendum to decide the issue.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 10:25pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Observer, the flaw in targetting the ban on alcohol sales would only result in the scenario that used to exist in the huge Castlemilk scheme of Glasgow, when the sale of alcohol was banned there because of a condition placed on the original sale of the land to the city of Glasgow by the previous owner, who was a tee-totaller. This ban meant there were no public houses in the area, so the residents mainly travelled back to the Gorbals, from where the majority of them had been rehoused, and did their drinking there. The result was hordes of drunks travelling back home on the late night buses, rowdy, abusive, aggressive and being sick.
My point being, a ban in one place merely moves the trouble somewhere else and today's youngsters would soon pass the word around as to which areas would sell them alcohol, and they'd head there for their partying (aka drink-fuelled trouble making).
Observer, the flaw in targetting the ban on alcohol sales would only result in the scenario that used to exist in the huge Castlemilk scheme of Glasgow, when the sale of alcohol was banned there because of a condition placed on the original sale of the land to the city of Glasgow by the previous owner, who was a tee-totaller. This ban meant there were no public houses in the area, so the residents mainly travelled back to the Gorbals, from where the majority of them had been rehoused, and did their drinking there. The result was hordes of drunks travelling back home on the late night buses, rowdy, abusive, aggressive and being sick.
My point being, a ban in one place merely moves the trouble somewhere else and today's youngsters would soon pass the word around as to which areas would sell them alcohol, and they'd head there for their partying (aka drink-fuelled trouble making).
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 10:29pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Baffled, perhaps you should go to bed if you've nothing positive to contribute to this debate. You're not being smart or clever. In fact your behaviour reminds me of my 3 year old granddaughter, who deliberately makes a noise in order to attract attention. The only difference between the two of you is that she knows when to pack it in. Grow up.
Baffled, perhaps you should go to bed if you've nothing positive to contribute to this debate. You're not being smart or clever. In fact your behaviour reminds me of my 3 year old granddaughter, who deliberately makes a noise in order to attract attention. The only difference between the two of you is that she knows when to pack it in. Grow up.
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 10:48pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Wallace[/bold] wrote:
Observer, the flaw in targetting the ban on alcohol sales would only result in the scenario that used to exist in the huge Castlemilk scheme of Glasgow, when the sale of alcohol was banned there because of a condition placed on the original sale of the land to the city of Glasgow by the previous owner, who was a tee-totaller. This ban meant there were no public houses in the area, so the residents mainly travelled back to the Gorbals, from where the majority of them had been rehoused, and did their drinking there. The result was hordes of drunks travelling back home on the late night buses, rowdy, abusive, aggressive and being sick.
My point being, a ban in one place merely moves the trouble somewhere else and today's youngsters would soon pass the word around as to which areas would sell them alcohol, and they'd head there for their partying (aka drink-fuelled trouble making).[/quote]
It was the licensing board that decided the area round Castlemilk was dry, not any title conditions.
Wallace wrote:
Observer, the flaw in targetting the ban on alcohol sales would only result in the scenario that used to exist in the huge Castlemilk scheme of Glasgow, when the sale of alcohol was banned there because of a condition placed on the original sale of the land to the city of Glasgow by the previous owner, who was a tee-totaller. This ban meant there were no public houses in the area, so the residents mainly travelled back to the Gorbals, from where the majority of them had been rehoused, and did their drinking there. The result was hordes of drunks travelling back home on the late night buses, rowdy, abusive, aggressive and being sick.
My point being, a ban in one place merely moves the trouble somewhere else and today's youngsters would soon pass the word around as to which areas would sell them alcohol, and they'd head there for their partying (aka drink-fuelled trouble making).
It was the licensing board that decided the area round Castlemilk was dry, not any title conditions.
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 10:52pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Wallace[/bold] wrote:
The act of voting or getting married doesn't involve any risk to anyone else. Drinking alcohol to excess can and does, as the casualty departments of our major hospitals will prove, especially at weekends. unfortunately the majority of the nation's teenagers have proved by their binge drinking that they are too immature to drink sensibly and enjoy themselves. They seem to equate alcohol consumption with getting drunk and causing trouble on the streets of our villages, towns and cities.
One point I do agree with though, is that under 18 years of age is too young to join the military and be trained to kill.[/quote]
So should a 16 year old be considered mature and responsible enough to vote but be required to wait another third of their lifetime before they can buy alcohol from an off sales?
Wallace wrote:
The act of voting or getting married doesn't involve any risk to anyone else. Drinking alcohol to excess can and does, as the casualty departments of our major hospitals will prove, especially at weekends. unfortunately the majority of the nation's teenagers have proved by their binge drinking that they are too immature to drink sensibly and enjoy themselves. They seem to equate alcohol consumption with getting drunk and causing trouble on the streets of our villages, towns and cities.
One point I do agree with though, is that under 18 years of age is too young to join the military and be trained to kill.
So should a 16 year old be considered mature and responsible enough to vote but be required to wait another third of their lifetime before they can buy alcohol from an off sales?
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 10:57pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Wallace,10:35pm. I drove one of the buses. Ruglen tae Castlemanky No 46. Sunday was worse as most pubs were closed. The hotels had a monopoly. It was like a military exercise. You drove them to the boozer sober then on the way back the conductor would climb into the cabin to avoid the nutters. It was ok if you had a clippie.[bold]bold[/bold]
Wallace,10:35pm. I drove one of the buses. Ruglen tae Castlemanky No 46. Sunday was worse as most pubs were closed. The hotels had a monopoly. It was like a military exercise. You drove them to the boozer sober then on the way back the conductor would climb into the cabin to avoid the nutters. It was ok if you had a clippie.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 11:20pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.
Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 11:28pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Wallace[/bold] wrote:
Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.[/quote]
I'm not questioning this policy.
I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.
Wallace wrote:
Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.
I'm not questioning this policy.
I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 11:28pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Graham - was it the 38 which was the bus service which ran through the Gorbals Crown Street and on to Castlemilk? Maybe still does. I've lived in Perth for many years now, so I've lost touch with the old Glasgow bus routes. If you're old enough like me, you'll also remember the bad old days of the bona fide traveller clause, which meant you could travel on a Sunday outside the Glasgow city boundary, drink yourself blotto, then travel back over the boundary to your home district. The drinkers even hired coaches and arranged
drinking trips to the nearest licensed hotel over the city boundary.
And I am sure that there was a clause in the original land sale which forbade the sale of alcohol anywhere within the area of the old Castlemilk village. In which case, the Glasgow Corporation would have been legally obliged to abide by that condition, until either the original title holder died or the condition expired with time.
Graham - was it the 38 which was the bus service which ran through the Gorbals Crown Street and on to Castlemilk? Maybe still does. I've lived in Perth for many years now, so I've lost touch with the old Glasgow bus routes. If you're old enough like me, you'll also remember the bad old days of the bona fide traveller clause, which meant you could travel on a Sunday outside the Glasgow city boundary, drink yourself blotto, then travel back over the boundary to your home district. The drinkers even hired coaches and arranged
drinking trips to the nearest licensed hotel over the city boundary.
And I am sure that there was a clause in the original land sale which forbade the sale of alcohol anywhere within the area of the old Castlemilk village. In which case, the Glasgow Corporation would have been legally obliged to abide by that condition, until either the original title holder died or the condition expired with time.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:33pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Baffled the Lapdug[quote]I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.[/quote] It's called learning adult responsibility early, and participating in it.
Getting legless is learning how [bold]not[/bold] to be responsible.
Baffled the Lapdug
I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.
It's called learning adult responsibility early, and participating in it.
Getting legless is learning how
not to be responsible.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 11:39pm Wed 23 Jul 08
Baffled, as I understand it, at the moment this is only a proposal, whcih will of course have to be debated then voted through the Scottish parliament, before it could become law. It would also seem like an anomaly in the making, that a situation could then exist in Scotland where you could get married at sixteen, yet be unable to purchase the drink for your wedding reception.
Now there's something else we might disagree on - personally I think 16 is too young for the responsibility of marriage. It may have been okay in medieval Scotland when you had to either grow up fast and mature early, because life then was short and brutish compared to modern times.
Baffled, as I understand it, at the moment this is only a proposal, whcih will of course have to be debated then voted through the Scottish parliament, before it could become law. It would also seem like an anomaly in the making, that a situation could then exist in Scotland where you could get married at sixteen, yet be unable to purchase the drink for your wedding reception.
Now there's something else we might disagree on - personally I think 16 is too young for the responsibility of marriage. It may have been okay in medieval Scotland when you had to either grow up fast and mature early, because life then was short and brutish compared to modern times.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 11:45pm Wed 23 Jul 08
That's it for me tonight guys. I've an early start tomorrow. Good night all - happy posting!
That's it for me tonight guys. I've an early start tomorrow. Good night all - happy posting!
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 11:46pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Wallace[/bold] wrote:
Graham - was it the 38 which was the bus service which ran through the Gorbals Crown Street and on to Castlemilk? Maybe still does. I've lived in Perth for many years now, so I've lost touch with the old Glasgow bus routes. If you're old enough like me, you'll also remember the bad old days of the bona fide traveller clause, which meant you could travel on a Sunday outside the Glasgow city boundary, drink yourself blotto, then travel back over the boundary to your home district. The drinkers even hired coaches and arranged
drinking trips to the nearest licensed hotel over the city boundary.
And I am sure that there was a clause in the original land sale which forbade the sale of alcohol anywhere within the area of the old Castlemilk village. In which case, the Glasgow Corporation would have been legally obliged to abide by that condition, until either the original title holder died or the condition expired with time.[/quote]
Not so much of the old.
It wasn't a title condition.
The dry area extended beyond Castlemilk anyway.
Wallace wrote:
Graham - was it the 38 which was the bus service which ran through the Gorbals Crown Street and on to Castlemilk? Maybe still does. I've lived in Perth for many years now, so I've lost touch with the old Glasgow bus routes. If you're old enough like me, you'll also remember the bad old days of the bona fide traveller clause, which meant you could travel on a Sunday outside the Glasgow city boundary, drink yourself blotto, then travel back over the boundary to your home district. The drinkers even hired coaches and arranged
drinking trips to the nearest licensed hotel over the city boundary.
And I am sure that there was a clause in the original land sale which forbade the sale of alcohol anywhere within the area of the old Castlemilk village. In which case, the Glasgow Corporation would have been legally obliged to abide by that condition, until either the original title holder died or the condition expired with time.
Not so much of the old.
It wasn't a title condition.
The dry area extended beyond Castlemilk anyway.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:58pm Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote]Baffled the Lapdug
I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.
It's called learning adult responsibility early, and participating in it.
Getting legless is learning how not to be responsible.[/quote]
Baffled the Lapdug
I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.
It's called learning adult responsibility early, and participating in it.
Getting legless is learning how not to be responsible.
Posted by: birsealmighty, Dundee on 12:17am Thu 24 Jul 08
[quote][bold]baffled[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Wallace[/bold] wrote: Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.[/quote] I'm not questioning this policy. I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.[/quote] The proposal did not initially come from the SNP baffled. It comes up every single year from schools and colleges from people under the age of 18 but mostly under 16.
I see no problem in allowing 16 year olds to vote. There will be some young people out there at that age, more mature and able to hold a debate better than their seniors.
However, if the majority of the public in Scotland want us to go to 21 for our drinking laws, 21 for our smoking laws, 21 for sexual consent, 21 for marriage.
Then the public in Scotland will have spoken then won't they. I believe in the people of Scotland to have their say.
70% turned out for the Scottish Parliament and at least that will vote either way for important issues whether it be Independence or otherwise.
Besides the Unionists cannot afford to ignore this one when it happens, and it will, therefore we are guaranteed a high turn out.
baffled wrote:
Wallace wrote: Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.
I'm not questioning this policy. I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.
The proposal did not initially come from the SNP baffled. It comes up every single year from schools and colleges from people under the age of 18 but mostly under 16.
I see no problem in allowing 16 year olds to vote. There will be some young people out there at that age, more mature and able to hold a debate better than their seniors.
However, if the majority of the public in Scotland want us to go to 21 for our drinking laws, 21 for our smoking laws, 21 for sexual consent, 21 for marriage.
Then the public in Scotland will have spoken then won't they. I believe in the people of Scotland to have their say.
70% turned out for the Scottish Parliament and at least that will vote either way for important issues whether it be Independence or otherwise.
Besides the Unionists cannot afford to ignore this one when it happens, and it will, therefore we are guaranteed a high turn out.
Posted by: baffled, scotland on 12:28am Thu 24 Jul 08
[quote][bold]birsealmighty[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]baffled[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Wallace[/bold] wrote: Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.[/quote] I'm not questioning this policy. I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.[/quote] The proposal did not initially come from the SNP baffled. It comes up every single year from schools and colleges from people under the age of 18 but mostly under 16.
I see no problem in allowing 16 year olds to vote. There will be some young people out there at that age, more mature and able to hold a debate better than their seniors.
However, if the majority of the public in Scotland want us to go to 21 for our drinking laws, 21 for our smoking laws, 21 for sexual consent, 21 for marriage.
Then the public in Scotland will have spoken then won't they. I believe in the people of Scotland to have their say.
70% turned out for the Scottish Parliament and at least that will vote either way for important issues whether it be Independence or otherwise.
Besides the Unionists cannot afford to ignore this one when it happens, and it will, therefore we are guaranteed a high turn out.[/quote]
I'm sure most 12 year olds think they should have the vote.
No doubt if the SNP thought they could gain an advantage from that they would support it.
birsealmighty wrote:
baffled wrote:
Wallace wrote: Baffled, if necessary to get control of the problem of bing drinking by the young, my answer would be yes. That's my opinion. You of course are entitled to yours. If you are happy with the status quo, I am not and I think most law abiding citizens will agree. They, like me, want a quiet life without the danger of being accosted (and in exteme instances, injured or even killed - no doubt filmed on a mobile for their later enjoyment) by drunken teenagers.
I'm not questioning this policy. I'm questioning the SNP's proposal to reduce the voting age to 16.
The proposal did not initially come from the SNP baffled. It comes up every single year from schools and colleges from people under the age of 18 but mostly under 16.
I see no problem in allowing 16 year olds to vote. There will be some young people out there at that age, more mature and able to hold a debate better than their seniors.
However, if the majority of the public in Scotland want us to go to 21 for our drinking laws, 21 for our smoking laws, 21 for sexual consent, 21 for marriage.
Then the public in Scotland will have spoken then won't they. I believe in the people of Scotland to have their say.
70% turned out for the Scottish Parliament and at least that will vote either way for important issues whether it be Independence or otherwise.
Besides the Unionists cannot afford to ignore this one when it happens, and it will, therefore we are guaranteed a high turn out.
I'm sure most 12 year olds think they should have the vote.
No doubt if the SNP thought they could gain an advantage from that they would support it.
Posted by: Big Boy Did It, And Ran Away on 12:32am Thu 24 Jul 08
As I said on previous posts re the issue of 18-21 being miffed at not getting their offie, why not keep the age restriction to a Friday and Saturday night?
That would allow 18-21s to get their carry out at other times - eg to watch the footie or whatever, but still restrict the underagers who want to get blootered on a Fri and Sat and cause community grief.
As I said on previous posts re the issue of 18-21 being miffed at not getting their offie, why not keep the age restriction to a Friday and Saturday night?
That would allow 18-21s to get their carry out at other times - eg to watch the footie or whatever, but still restrict the underagers who want to get blootered on a Fri and Sat and cause community grief.
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