British public 'expect violent crime will get even worse'
The British public overwhelmingly expects violent crime to get worse over the next year and has little faith in politicians to halt it, according to a new poll.
More than eight-out-of-10 (83%) people questioned said they had become more concerned about knife crime over the past 12 months and a similar number (82%) said they expected violent crime to increase over the next year.
The poll, by ComRes for BBC2's The Daily Politics show, was published as it was revealed the 18th teenager to meet a violent death in London this year had called out for his mother shortly after being stabbed and beaten.
Shakilus Townsend, 16, was attacked by a gang just after 2pm on Thursday in south-east London.
A witness said he had asked for his mother and cried "I don't want to die" as he lay bleeding in the street. He died in St George's Hospital, Tooting, just after midnight on the day he was stabbed.
The poll also came as detectives revealed the killer of two French students who were bound, gagged and stabbed to death in a bedsit in south London last Sunday may have died for the sake of two handheld games consoles, which were stolen.
Laurent Bonomo and Gabriel Ferez, both 23, were found with more than 240 stab wounds.
The savage murder of the bio-chemistry students came just over a month after Glasgow was stunned by the murders of soft drinks sales consultant Moira Jones, 40, originally from England, and trainee restaurant manageress Eleni Pachou, 25, from Greece.
Meanwhile, police are hunting three black teenagers who ambushed Shakilus, known as Shaki to his friends, before they stabbed him in the chest and beat his head.
The teenager was attacked by a masked gang armed with knives and baseball bats in Thornton Heath, south London, and the youths had pulled up their hoods and covered their faces in bandanas.
Police also want to trace a black girl, in her
mid-teens and wearing a floral dress, who stood back with up to eight others and watched the sickening attack. Officers have recovered two knives, one of which was described by a witness as 18-inches long.
The detective leading the investigation said it was "another senseless incident in which a young life has been taken away by a knife".
Residents spoke yesterday of how they desperately tried to save Shakilus as blood poured from his chest. Dee Bamina, 35, attempted to stem the bleeding with a bath towel after another neighbour took him into the communal doorway of her block of flats.
She said: "I think a group of boys must have been after the boy. All I heard was them
saying, Get him from the other side'. I tried to ask his name and tell him to calm down and lie down because he was trying to get up and go."
She said the boy was
saying "where's my mum, I want my mum".
The 16-year-old told her he did not know his
attackers.
Detective Chief Inspector Cliff Lyons, who is heading the inquiry, said the attackers were not believed to be from the area because they ran off in different directions looking for a way to escape.
Witness Richard Higgins, 17, said: "I thought he had tripped at first then I saw the knife. It was a big kitchen knife, maybe 18 inches.
"He had stab wounds on his stomach and one big, long wound on his chest."
A 17-year-old boy who lives near where Shakilus was killed said stabbings were common.
"If he hadn't died, no one would have cared about this, it would have just been
another stabbing," he said.
"How are the police or the government going to be able to sort this out if we as kids don't know why this sort of stuff's going on?"
The attack on Shakilus came as three teenagers appeared in court in the north of the city accused of stabbing 16-year-old Ben Kinsella to death last weekend.
In separate incidents, Tunisian Hamouda Bessaad, 34, was stabbed to death in Old Kent Road on Monday, while Dee Willis, 28, died after a knife attack in Peckham the following day.
Metropolitan Police Deputy Commissioner Paul Stephenson is heading up a 75-man taskforce dedicated to targeting gang members.
He said tackling knife crime was the force's "number one priority".
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Posted by: gavin48, Glasgow on 12:05am Sat 5 Jul 08
Why is this story about perceptions of violence in England not more clearly identified as such. In Scotland violent crime has actually dropped in each of the last 5 years.
Why is this story about perceptions of violence in England not more clearly identified as such. In Scotland violent crime has actually dropped in each of the last 5 years.
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 12:27am Sat 5 Jul 08
gavin48, 12:05 am. Is that crime in St Kilda that has dropped. Are you from Glasgow Scotland gavin.[bold]bold[/bold]
gavin48, 12:05 am. Is that crime in St Kilda that has dropped. Are you from Glasgow Scotland gavin.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:39am Sat 5 Jul 08
Another idiot comment from Graham of Garbage, incapable of discussing a subject at any length, let alone stick to the subject.
Obviously his sarcastic remark is indicative of his own sitution: he is terrified to venture outside even to collect a pint of milk, locked inside his room posting monosyllabic verbiage about the nasty, vile world beyond his window.
Aye, we're awe doomed!
Another idiot comment from Graham of Garbage, incapable of discussing a subject at any length, let alone stick to the subject.
Obviously his sarcastic remark is indicative of his own sitution: he is terrified to venture outside even to collect a pint of milk, locked inside his room posting monosyllabic verbiage about the nasty, vile world beyond his window.
Aye, we're awe doomed!
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 12:47am Sat 5 Jul 08
LA,12:39am. Unfortunately milk deliveries stopped due to milk stealing. Such is the poverty and crime in my area it is difficult to venture out. gavin48 did have to mention England. He could have quoted crime in LA. You NATS have a problem with the English.[bold]bold[/bold]
LA,12:39am. Unfortunately milk deliveries stopped due to milk stealing. Such is the poverty and crime in my area it is difficult to venture out. gavin48 did have to mention England. He could have quoted crime in LA. You NATS have a problem with the English.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:03am Sat 5 Jul 08
Graham of Garbage[quote]Unfortunately milk deliveries stopped due to milk stealing.[/quote] Milk deliveries stopped because the profit margins were too small. Please get a grip on the society you supposedly live in and stop the spin.
Graham of Garbage
Unfortunately milk deliveries stopped due to milk stealing.
Milk deliveries stopped because the profit margins were too small. Please get a grip on the society you supposedly live in and stop the spin.
Posted by: kotb, glasgow on 1:16am Sat 5 Jul 08
Of course violent crime will go up and up in scotland & england. there are clear reasons for this which all liberals will always deny. Then again liberals told us all back in the 70s that banning the belt would radically improve the behaviour of children.
Of course violent crime will go up and up in scotland & england. there are clear reasons for this which all liberals will always deny. Then again liberals told us all back in the 70s that banning the belt would radically improve the behaviour of children.
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 1:26am Sat 5 Jul 08
LA,1:03am. The profit margin was actually quite good. But who wants to get up at two in the morning, drive a wee elecric motor vehicle and do door to door deliveries when your milk is being stolen doing the delivery. Its hardly fair.[bold]bold[/bold]
LA,1:03am. The profit margin was actually quite good. But who wants to get up at two in the morning, drive a wee elecric motor vehicle and do door to door deliveries when your milk is being stolen doing the delivery. Its hardly fair.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:26am Sat 5 Jul 08
Radio KOTB [quote]Then again liberals told us all back in the 70s that banning the belt would radically improve the behaviour of children.[/quote] And you are about to tell us corporal punishment didn't do you any harm. Just look at the marvellous person you became.
Radio KOTB
Then again liberals told us all back in the 70s that banning the belt would radically improve the behaviour of children.
And you are about to tell us corporal punishment didn't do you any harm. Just look at the marvellous person you became.
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 3:11am Sat 5 Jul 08
The nanny state is responsible they are so parnickety that almost every child is a criminal before they even reach voting age. It is a crime to drink underage but these days it is not uncommon for kids to be sent home **** from school. So if they dont go to jail for that who is to say carrying a knife will be worse. Even if they use the knife in a viscious attack that leaves a youngster near death if he doesnt die they will be unlucky to serve a year in playstation heaven as the kids call juvenile detention these days.
The nanny state is responsible they are so parnickety that almost every child is a criminal before they even reach voting age. It is a crime to drink underage but these days it is not uncommon for kids to be sent home **** from school. So if they dont go to jail for that who is to say carrying a knife will be worse. Even if they use the knife in a viscious attack that leaves a youngster near death if he doesnt die they will be unlucky to serve a year in playstation heaven as the kids call juvenile detention these days.
Posted by: gavin48, Glasgow on 7:09am Sat 5 Jul 08
It is regrettable that we seem to be incapable of having a rational discussion on crime.
Graham @ 12.27, 12.47 and 1.26
I mentioned England only because the article failed to make it clear that the report were from surveys carried out in England only.
In Scotland we have an entirely different and separate legal system, as well as an entirely separate and different set of crime statistics. The failure of this article to mention this leads to it being a very misleading article and one that, in my opinion is indicative of sloppy journalism.
If you are interested read the Scottish Crime Survey at http://www.scotland.
gov.uk/Publications/
2007/10/12094216/5
This is an annual survey that has been done since the early 1990s, it surveys 5000 Scots on their perceptions and feelings about crime. It also does some very interesting comparisons between peoples perceptions and the actual crime figures recorded in the Police Statistics.Look at http://tiny.cc/SNpHN for the Recorded crime figures. These are the facts. It is surely better to base ones views and opinions on the available facts rather than on some piece of poor writing.
Yes I am from Glasgow, Scotland, born and bred, and no I have no problem with the English, but I do have a problem with sloppy journalism
It is regrettable that we seem to be incapable of having a rational discussion on crime.
Graham @ 12.27, 12.47 and 1.26
I mentioned England only because the article failed to make it clear that the report were from surveys carried out in England only.
In Scotland we have an entirely different and separate legal system, as well as an entirely separate and different set of crime statistics. The failure of this article to mention this leads to it being a very misleading article and one that, in my opinion is indicative of sloppy journalism.
If you are interested read the Scottish Crime Survey at http://www.scotland.
gov.uk/Publications/
2007/10/12094216/5
This is an annual survey that has been done since the early 1990s, it surveys 5000 Scots on their perceptions and feelings about crime. It also does some very interesting comparisons between peoples perceptions and the actual crime figures recorded in the Police Statistics.Look at http://tiny.cc/SNpHN for the Recorded crime figures. These are the facts. It is surely better to base ones views and opinions on the available facts rather than on some piece of poor writing.
Yes I am from Glasgow, Scotland, born and bred, and no I have no problem with the English, but I do have a problem with sloppy journalism
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 7:34am Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote]British public 'expect violent crime will get even worse'[/quote] Why is Britain going to invade someboby else?
British public 'expect violent crime will get even worse'
Why is Britain going to invade someboby else?
Posted by: Colin B, Bearsden on 8:59am Sat 5 Jul 08
no wonder the public are concerned - Kenny the Pisshead criiminal McCAskill has gone native and soft on crime and allows civil servants to release dangerous criminals
no wonder the public are concerned - Kenny the Pisshead criiminal McCAskill has gone native and soft on crime and allows civil servants to release dangerous criminals
Posted by: Andrew, Scotland on 9:21am Sat 5 Jul 08
I am sorry to speak plainly but we need more, bigger and slightly harsher prisons. Knife crime - 5 years minimum.
I am sorry to speak plainly but we need more, bigger and slightly harsher prisons. Knife crime - 5 years minimum.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 9:45am Sat 5 Jul 08
Crime overall has dropped. There are specific crimes such as knife crime which should be targetted. Graham don't be a woos all your life.
Crime overall has dropped. There are specific crimes such as knife crime which should be targetted. Graham don't be a woos all your life.
Posted by: kotb, glasgow on 10:34am Sat 5 Jul 08
Los Angeles:
'And you are about to tell us corporal punishment didn't do you any harm.'
No. Actually. Or I would have included that statement in the post.
Los Angeles:
'And you are about to tell us corporal punishment didn't do you any harm.'
No. Actually. Or I would have included that statement in the post.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 10:38am Sat 5 Jul 08
Radio KOTB[quote]No. Actually. Or I would have included that statement in the post.[/quote] You implied it by your pomposity.
Radio KOTB
No. Actually. Or I would have included that statement in the post.
You implied it by your pomposity.
Posted by: JohnM, Perth on 10:51am Sat 5 Jul 08
Violent crime will get worse on the simple basis that children and young adults are not challenged and encouraged to achieve by either parents or the education/containmen
t system and when, inevitably they fall into misdemeanours and worse, the penalties applied are almost rewards. E.e. nice prisons, with early release or even no prison at all and a bit of chat from your social worker.
So what has to be done? Reinstate meaningful rewards and penalties. The family has to be the starting point, but in the absence of that, increasingly, the police and courts have to have sufficient deterrent value that it is more painful to commit crime than it is to do something constructive with your life.
Violent crime will get worse on the simple basis that children and young adults are not challenged and encouraged to achieve by either parents or the education/containmen
t system and when, inevitably they fall into misdemeanours and worse, the penalties applied are almost rewards. E.e. nice prisons, with early release or even no prison at all and a bit of chat from your social worker.
So what has to be done? Reinstate meaningful rewards and penalties. The family has to be the starting point, but in the absence of that, increasingly, the police and courts have to have sufficient deterrent value that it is more painful to commit crime than it is to do something constructive with your life.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:18pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Violent crime is [bold]not[/bold] getting worse, it is the perception of it which is increasing. I think anyone who thinks jails are nice has not been incarcerated in one. Why do we think we need to teach young people by instilling fear ? Surely as every parent knows children learn by example. Create a society which has values and they will learn them. If our children are going feral it's our fault - stop blaming them.
Violent crime is
not getting worse, it is the perception of it which is increasing. I think anyone who thinks jails are nice has not been incarcerated in one. Why do we think we need to teach young people by instilling fear ? Surely as every parent knows children learn by example. Create a society which has values and they will learn them. If our children are going feral it's our fault - stop blaming them.
Posted by: ares_apollo, London on 12:20pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Considering that the vast majority of violent crime here in the capital is commited by immigrant stock, would it be terribly un 'pc' of me to suggest that the government looks on the issue of forced repatriation of serious cases whether the perpetrator was born here or not.
Maybe the UK should have a probationary period for immigrants that lasts for...say 3 generations before this forced repatriation is lifted and normal domestic punishment used instead.
If you said to a black that they would face being packed off back to Africa if found carrying a knife...I am sure that they would think again and do more to integrate into our culture and society and tow the line.
Considering that the vast majority of violent crime here in the capital is commited by immigrant stock, would it be terribly un 'pc' of me to suggest that the government looks on the issue of forced repatriation of serious cases whether the perpetrator was born here or not.
Maybe the UK should have a probationary period for immigrants that lasts for...say 3 generations before this forced repatriation is lifted and normal domestic punishment used instead.
If you said to a black that they would face being packed off back to Africa if found carrying a knife...I am sure that they would think again and do more to integrate into our culture and society and tow the line.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:24pm Sat 5 Jul 08
**** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ?
**** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:28pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Behind The Ares[quote]If you said to a black that they would face being packed off back to Africa[/quote] And if Glaswegian they will be packed and sent to ... where?
Australia doesn't accept hardened criminals these days.
Behind The Ares
If you said to a black that they would face being packed off back to Africa
And if Glaswegian they will be packed and sent to ... where?
Australia doesn't accept hardened criminals these days.
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 1:45pm Sat 5 Jul 08
This article obviously refers to knife crime in England and although it does not involve Scottish cases there are parallels.
Until we can get a consensus that there is a problem and that the current model of how a significant number of our kids are raised with lack of or a complete absence of parental control contributes to the problem we will not progress.
To dismiss the absence of corporal punishment in our schools as being unrelated to lack of discipline is to deny the evidence of the eyes of those who attended school under that regime.
The increasing army of NEETs and the groups of apparently feral children who roam our streets at all times of the day and night are testament to the downward spiral of society in some particular areas.
You cannot blame someone for behaving like an animal if those are the values (or lack of same) that have been instilled in them in the home environment. The problem is in the home and it is a vicious cycle of like breeding like and it will continue to degenerate until fundamental steps are taken to break the cycle.
This article obviously refers to knife crime in England and although it does not involve Scottish cases there are parallels.
Until we can get a consensus that there is a problem and that the current model of how a significant number of our kids are raised with lack of or a complete absence of parental control contributes to the problem we will not progress.
To dismiss the absence of corporal punishment in our schools as being unrelated to lack of discipline is to deny the evidence of the eyes of those who attended school under that regime.
The increasing army of NEETs and the groups of apparently feral children who roam our streets at all times of the day and night are testament to the downward spiral of society in some particular areas.
You cannot blame someone for behaving like an animal if those are the values (or lack of same) that have been instilled in them in the home environment. The problem is in the home and it is a vicious cycle of like breeding like and it will continue to degenerate until fundamental steps are taken to break the cycle.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:56pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote]To dismiss the absence of corporal punishment in our schools as being unrelated to lack of discipline is to deny the evidence of the eyes of those who attended school under that regime.[/quote] That just is NOT true.
At the time of intense research and census, corporal punishment was being used on a massive scale and failing in every case to alter behaviour. That was why it was deemed useless as well as violent. Please, let's not do a Bush and turn back the clock.
All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists. And how the hell do we teach respect and tolerance in our kids when they see our politicians bombing the hell out of small nations ... for greed and revenge?
To dismiss the absence of corporal punishment in our schools as being unrelated to lack of discipline is to deny the evidence of the eyes of those who attended school under that regime.
That just is NOT true.
At the time of intense research and census, corporal punishment was being used on a massive scale and failing in every case to alter behaviour. That was why it was deemed useless as well as violent. Please, let's not do a Bush and turn back the clock.
All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists. And how the hell do we teach respect and tolerance in our kids when they see our politicians bombing the hell out of small nations ... for greed and revenge?
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 2:30pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
[quote]To dismiss the absence of corporal punishment in our schools as being unrelated to lack of discipline is to deny the evidence of the eyes of those who attended school under that regime.[/quote] That just is NOT true.
At the time of intense research and census, corporal punishment was being used on a massive scale and failing in every case to alter behaviour. That was why it was deemed useless as well as violent. Please, let's not do a Bush and turn back the clock.
All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists. And how the hell do we teach respect and tolerance in our kids when they see our politicians bombing the hell out of small nations ... for greed and revenge?
[/quote] That is just NOT true.
Where is your evidence that "All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists". That is just subjective twaddle. Give me the references.
Los Angeles wrote:
To dismiss the absence of corporal punishment in our schools as being unrelated to lack of discipline is to deny the evidence of the eyes of those who attended school under that regime.
That just is NOT true.
At the time of intense research and census, corporal punishment was being used on a massive scale and failing in every case to alter behaviour. That was why it was deemed useless as well as violent. Please, let's not do a Bush and turn back the clock.
All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists. And how the hell do we teach respect and tolerance in our kids when they see our politicians bombing the hell out of small nations ... for greed and revenge?
That is just NOT true.
Where is your evidence that "All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists". That is just subjective twaddle. Give me the references.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:31pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Politically-Incorrec
t[quote]Give me the references.[/quote] Thatcher.
She was a second-rate teacher in the habit of punishing her entire class if no one pointed to the pupil who sniggered behind her back.
Remember the famous remark made a few seconds before the Lochgelly was brough down on palm and wrist leaving a huge welt lasting hours?
"[bold]This is going to hurt you more than me."[/bold]
Pure hypocrisy - and the stuff of Thatcherism.
Civilise adult society - then let that be the example to children.
Politically-Incorrec
t
Give me the references.
Thatcher.
She was a second-rate teacher in the habit of punishing her entire class if no one pointed to the pupil who sniggered behind her back.
Remember the famous remark made a few seconds before the Lochgelly was brough down on palm and wrist leaving a huge welt lasting hours?
"
This is going to hurt you more than me."
Pure hypocrisy - and the stuff of Thatcherism.
Civilise adult society - then let that be the example to children.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:36pm Sat 5 Jul 08
PS: Our prison are stuffed to over-flowing, many cells filled with inmates who were school students when corporal punishment was in common use.
A lot of good it did them - eh?
Go to Skye, live there a week. Then come back and tell us kids needs violence to tame them, prison to teach them a lesson, and adults thrown off the island.
This is Scotland. Keep a sense of proportion.
PS: Our prison are stuffed to over-flowing, many cells filled with inmates who were school students when corporal punishment was in common use.
A lot of good it did them - eh?
Go to Skye, live there a week. Then come back and tell us kids needs violence to tame them, prison to teach them a lesson, and adults thrown off the island.
This is Scotland. Keep a sense of proportion.
Posted by: curly, milngavie on 4:16pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Despite some recent horrific examples, as a point of fact the British Crime Survey shows that violent crime is falling in Scotland and in England, though it is still proportionally higher in Scotland. The perception that it is in on the increase is a media invention designed to help sell particular newspapers.
The correct response to issues of crime and punishment is calm and considered (such as Henry McLeish's recent report on sentencing) not the alamist stuff that appears in some of the above posts.
For what it's worth, I'm not a nationalist, but Kenny McCaskill is the best thing to happen to Scottish Politics in years. And 'Observer', you let yourself down by using the phrase 'why don't you get back to your own country' to someone who you think to be English, even if you are responding to a particularly unpleasant post.
Despite some recent horrific examples, as a point of fact the British Crime Survey shows that violent crime is falling in Scotland and in England, though it is still proportionally higher in Scotland. The perception that it is in on the increase is a media invention designed to help sell particular newspapers.
The correct response to issues of crime and punishment is calm and considered (such as Henry McLeish's recent report on sentencing) not the alamist stuff that appears in some of the above posts.
For what it's worth, I'm not a nationalist, but Kenny McCaskill is the best thing to happen to Scottish Politics in years. And 'Observer', you let yourself down by using the phrase 'why don't you get back to your own country' to someone who you think to be English, even if you are responding to a particularly unpleasant post.
Posted by: ares_apollo, London on 6:20pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:24pm today
**** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ?
**** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ?
Telling me to go back to my own country IS a racist remark in itself. And I am right here in London..The CAPITAL of the UK..I simply have an interest in Scottish issues as I love the country so much and would hate to see Scotland going the same way as England has !
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:24pm today
**** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ?
**** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ?
Telling me to go back to my own country IS a racist remark in itself. And I am right here in London..The CAPITAL of the UK..I simply have an interest in Scottish issues as I love the country so much and would hate to see Scotland going the same way as England has !
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 6:41pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote]Telling me to go back to my own country IS a racist remark in itself. And I am right here in London..The CAPITAL of the UK..I simply have an interest in Scottish issues as I love the country so much and would hate to see Scotland going the same way as England has ![/quote]
Telling you to go back to your own country was prefaced by ''as you racists would say'' if you don't get sarcasm that's not my fault. London may be your capital but it is not mine. Avoiding extreme racism and an uncohesive society such as London can offer examples of is a very good idea, I sincerely hope we don't go the way of English society either.
Telling me to go back to my own country IS a racist remark in itself. And I am right here in London..The CAPITAL of the UK..I simply have an interest in Scottish issues as I love the country so much and would hate to see Scotland going the same way as England has !
Telling you to go back to your own country was prefaced by ''as you racists would say'' if you don't get sarcasm that's not my fault. London may be your capital but it is not mine. Avoiding extreme racism and an uncohesive society such as London can offer examples of is a very good idea, I sincerely hope we don't go the way of English society either.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 6:45pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote][bold]curly[/bold] wrote:
Despite some recent horrific examples, as a point of fact the British Crime Survey shows that violent crime is falling in Scotland and in England, though it is still proportionally higher in Scotland. The perception that it is in on the increase is a media invention designed to help sell particular newspapers. The correct response to issues of crime and punishment is calm and considered (such as Henry McLeish's recent report on sentencing) not the alamist stuff that appears in some of the above posts. For what it's worth, I'm not a nationalist, but Kenny McCaskill is the best thing to happen to Scottish Politics in years. And 'Observer', you let yourself down by using the phrase 'why don't you get back to your own country' to someone who you think to be English, even if you are responding to a particularly unpleasant post. [/quote] I agree with all of your post. I was making a joke with the ''why don't you go back to your own country'' as I have heard it said so often from racists it seemed an appropriate thing to say [italic]back.[/italic] But it seems that was wrong.
curly wrote:
Despite some recent horrific examples, as a point of fact the British Crime Survey shows that violent crime is falling in Scotland and in England, though it is still proportionally higher in Scotland. The perception that it is in on the increase is a media invention designed to help sell particular newspapers. The correct response to issues of crime and punishment is calm and considered (such as Henry McLeish's recent report on sentencing) not the alamist stuff that appears in some of the above posts. For what it's worth, I'm not a nationalist, but Kenny McCaskill is the best thing to happen to Scottish Politics in years. And 'Observer', you let yourself down by using the phrase 'why don't you get back to your own country' to someone who you think to be English, even if you are responding to a particularly unpleasant post.
I agree with all of your post. I was making a joke with the ''why don't you go back to your own country'' as I have heard it said so often from racists it seemed an appropriate thing to say
back. But it seems that was wrong.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 6:51pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote]Where is your evidence that "All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists". That is just subjective twaddle. Give me the references.[/quote]
Can't give you references other than myself. I was never remotely scared of the belt. Aye it was bloody sore and you had a greet afterwards, but it was a badge of honour to take and not cry at the time. They phased it out when I was at school so I didn't get it that often, but it did nothing to civilise me it just made me angry on the occasions I was belted for doing fcuk all wrong apart from not ''fitting in''. I was never anti social but I asked a lot of questions and the teacher didn't like it and belted me. What lesson was I supposed to learn from that ?
Where is your evidence that "All the Lochgelly did was turn good-natured teachers into bullies, and bullying teachers into sadists". That is just subjective twaddle. Give me the references.
Can't give you references other than myself. I was never remotely scared of the belt. Aye it was bloody sore and you had a greet afterwards, but it was a badge of honour to take and not cry at the time. They phased it out when I was at school so I didn't get it that often, but it did nothing to civilise me it just made me angry on the occasions I was belted for doing fcuk all wrong apart from not ''fitting in''. I was never anti social but I asked a lot of questions and the teacher didn't like it and belted me. What lesson was I supposed to learn from that ?
Posted by: ares_apollo, London on 7:04pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Observer.
I fully understand that racism in Scotland has another name..
Isn't it called the SNP ?
We here in England are forbidden by pc laws to be nationalistic..But Scots have the freedoms of even being able to vote an openly racist political party into power.
Observer.
I fully understand that racism in Scotland has another name..
Isn't it called the SNP ?
We here in England are forbidden by pc laws to be nationalistic..But Scots have the freedoms of even being able to vote an openly racist political party into power.
Posted by: ares_apollo, London on 7:18pm Sat 5 Jul 08
And just for the record for any other anti English racists out there..The headline clearly states 'BRITISH Public'..Not Scottish or English.
And just for the record for any other anti English racists out there..The headline clearly states 'BRITISH Public'..Not Scottish or English.
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 8:01pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
PS: Our prison are stuffed to over-flowing, many cells filled with inmates who were school students when corporal punishment was in common use.
A lot of good it did them - eh?
Go to Skye, live there a week. Then come back and tell us kids needs violence to tame them, prison to teach them a lesson, and adults thrown off the island.
This is Scotland. Keep a sense of proportion.
[/quote] I think if you check your facts you will find that the overwhelming majority of the prison population are too young to have experienced corporal punishment at school.
I'll give you fact; these are the figures for reported attacks on Scottish teachers teachers and Scottish Government references on the increasing violence in our schools.
1998/1999 1,898
1999/2000 3,083
2000/2001 4,501
2001/2002 5,412
2002/2003 6,899
http://www.scotland.
gov.uk/Publications/
2006/09/28125634/8
Los Angeles wrote:
PS: Our prison are stuffed to over-flowing, many cells filled with inmates who were school students when corporal punishment was in common use.
A lot of good it did them - eh?
Go to Skye, live there a week. Then come back and tell us kids needs violence to tame them, prison to teach them a lesson, and adults thrown off the island.
This is Scotland. Keep a sense of proportion.
I think if you check your facts you will find that the overwhelming majority of the prison population are too young to have experienced corporal punishment at school.
I'll give you fact; these are the figures for reported attacks on Scottish teachers teachers and Scottish Government references on the increasing violence in our schools.
1998/1999 1,898
1999/2000 3,083
2000/2001 4,501
2001/2002 5,412
2002/2003 6,899
http://www.scotland.
gov.uk/Publications/
2006/09/28125634/8
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 8:08pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote][bold]ares_apollo[/bold] wrote:
Observer. I fully understand that racism in Scotland has another name.. Isn't it called the SNP ? We here in England are forbidden by pc laws to be nationalistic..But Scots have the freedoms of even being able to vote an openly racist political party into power.[/quote] You really are an arse. You are advocating deporting British citizens if their parentage was not ''indigenous''. And you have the cheek to call us racist ? No one is forbidding you from being English. The English, by and large, are a good people, I should know, I lived in London for many years. But people like you, with your narrow minded view of the world, unable to understand anyone elses opinion or even comprehend a sarcastic comment, do not give your fellow citizens a good name.
ares_apollo wrote:
Observer. I fully understand that racism in Scotland has another name.. Isn't it called the SNP ? We here in England are forbidden by pc laws to be nationalistic..But Scots have the freedoms of even being able to vote an openly racist political party into power.
You really are an arse. You are advocating deporting British citizens if their parentage was not ''indigenous''. And you have the cheek to call us racist ? No one is forbidding you from being English. The English, by and large, are a good people, I should know, I lived in London for many years. But people like you, with your narrow minded view of the world, unable to understand anyone elses opinion or even comprehend a sarcastic comment, do not give your fellow citizens a good name.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 8:12pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote]I think if you check your facts you will find that the overwhelming majority of the prison population are too young to have experienced corporal punishment at school.[/quote]
So you think beating them more soundly when they are young is going to prevent delinquency ? I went to school with the ''birch boy'' - do you remember that ? Oh how we laughed at the adullts getting their knickers in a twist debating whether or not he should be birched. We knew it wouldn't make one iota of difference.
I think if you check your facts you will find that the overwhelming majority of the prison population are too young to have experienced corporal punishment at school.
So you think beating them more soundly when they are young is going to prevent delinquency ? I went to school with the ''birch boy'' - do you remember that ? Oh how we laughed at the adullts getting their knickers in a twist debating whether or not he should be birched. We knew it wouldn't make one iota of difference.
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 8:36pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote]So you think beating them more soundly when they are young is going to prevent delinquency ?[/quote]
In my experience the implied threat of "the belt" was usually sufficient and there was discipline and order. I cannot recall any incident when any teacher was subject to physical or verbal abuse, kids did what they were told when they were told to do it, no negotiations no discussions. Most children rapidly learned what the rules of the game were and the overwhelming majority never experienced corporal punishment.
So you think beating them more soundly when they are young is going to prevent delinquency ?
In my experience the implied threat of "the belt" was usually sufficient and there was discipline and order. I cannot recall any incident when any teacher was subject to physical or verbal abuse, kids did what they were told when they were told to do it, no negotiations no discussions. Most children rapidly learned what the rules of the game were and the overwhelming majority never experienced corporal punishment.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 8:55pm Sat 5 Jul 08
I suppose we are all left with experience. Mine was that the belt was seen as a challenge and that it was handed out unfairly. I was belted for asking questions the teacher didn't want to answer. I would not put up with my daughter being belted for asking questions. But then she is not anti social because she has been brought up properly. I think they key to this problem is at home, and not at school.
I suppose we are all left with experience. Mine was that the belt was seen as a challenge and that it was handed out unfairly. I was belted for asking questions the teacher didn't want to answer. I would not put up with my daughter being belted for asking questions. But then she is not anti social because she has been brought up properly. I think they key to this problem is at home, and not at school.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:12pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Politically Incorrect[quote]I'll give you fact; these are the figures for reported attacks on Scottish teachers teachers and Scottish Government references on the increasing violence in our schools.[/quote] I think you will find they are symptomatic of our surveillance society, intolerance that has grown over years, much of which is imposed on teachers by charlatans screaming it is all the fault of education.
If you listed all the misdeamours at schools in the seventies and eighties they would easily outclass the statistics you use as ammunition: surreptitious masterbation in classrooms, speaking back to teachers, smoking behind the bicycle shed, graffiti in toilet cubicles, sexual comments to girls, bullying by boys, truancy, theft, lying, false accusation, [italic]et cetera.[/italic]
Of course, your statistics are black and white, taking no account of situation, stress from other spources on both parties, mishearing, and all the human frailties that go into coimmunication gone awry.
Politically Incorrect
I'll give you fact; these are the figures for reported attacks on Scottish teachers teachers and Scottish Government references on the increasing violence in our schools.
I think you will find they are symptomatic of our surveillance society, intolerance that has grown over years, much of which is imposed on teachers by charlatans screaming it is all the fault of education.
If you listed all the misdeamours at schools in the seventies and eighties they would easily outclass the statistics you use as ammunition: surreptitious masterbation in classrooms, speaking back to teachers, smoking behind the bicycle shed, graffiti in toilet cubicles, sexual comments to girls, bullying by boys, truancy, theft, lying, false accusation,
et cetera.
Of course, your statistics are black and white, taking no account of situation, stress from other spources on both parties, mishearing, and all the human frailties that go into coimmunication gone awry.
Posted by: Claire, Edinburgh on 10:41pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Whether criome stats are falling here or in the UK generally is missing the point crime especially violent crime IS with us and will never leave us until parents are made responsible fortheir actions or lose their benefits or the kids are sent to old fashioned boarding schools.
ZERO TOLERANCE is what we should demand as it has been proved effective in n New York.
Whether criome stats are falling here or in the UK generally is missing the point crime especially violent crime IS with us and will never leave us until parents are made responsible fortheir actions or lose their benefits or the kids are sent to old fashioned boarding schools.
ZERO TOLERANCE is what we should demand as it has been proved effective in n New York.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:00pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Clare[quote]ZERO TOLERANCE is what we should demand as it has been proved effective in n New York.[/quote] That'll be the place where the twin towers and staff in it were wiped out by terrorists.
Makes any attempt at taming citizens irrelevant, doesn't it?
Clare
ZERO TOLERANCE is what we should demand as it has been proved effective in n New York.
That'll be the place where the twin towers and staff in it were wiped out by terrorists.
Makes any attempt at taming citizens irrelevant, doesn't it?
Posted by: tris, scotland on 11:06pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Graham[/bold] wrote:
LA,1:03am. The profit margin was actually quite good. But who wants to get up at two in the morning, drive a wee elecric motor vehicle and do door to door deliveries when your milk is being stolen doing the delivery. Its hardly fair.[bold]bold[/bold] [/quote] Must be loads of thieves about at that time of the night wondering where they can get a pint of milk to nab and maybe cash it in for some smack!
Graham wrote:
LA,1:03am. The profit margin was actually quite good. But who wants to get up at two in the morning, drive a wee elecric motor vehicle and do door to door deliveries when your milk is being stolen doing the delivery. Its hardly fair.
Must be loads of thieves about at that time of the night wondering where they can get a pint of milk to nab and maybe cash it in for some smack!
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 11:09pm Sat 5 Jul 08
LA,11:00pm. So you reckon it was terrorists that dun ra durty deed and not Islamic Freedom Fighters.[bold]bold[/bold]
LA,11:00pm. So you reckon it was terrorists that dun ra durty deed and not Islamic Freedom Fighters.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 11:10pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote:
Violent crime is [bold]not[/bold] getting worse, it is the perception of it which is increasing. I think anyone who thinks jails are nice has not been incarcerated in one. Why do we think we need to teach young people by instilling fear ? Surely as every parent knows children learn by example. Create a society which has values and they will learn them. If our children are going feral it's our fault - stop blaming them. [/quote] Well said.
Observer wrote:
Violent crime is not getting worse, it is the perception of it which is increasing. I think anyone who thinks jails are nice has not been incarcerated in one. Why do we think we need to teach young people by instilling fear ? Surely as every parent knows children learn by example. Create a society which has values and they will learn them. If our children are going feral it's our fault - stop blaming them.
Well said.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 11:17pm Sat 5 Jul 08
[quote][bold]ares_apollo[/bold] wrote:
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:24pm today **** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ? **** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ? Telling me to go back to my own country IS a racist remark in itself. And I am right here in London..The CAPITAL of the UK..I simply have an interest in Scottish issues as I love the country so much and would hate to see Scotland going the same way as England has ![/quote]
Edinburgh is the capital here.
London means very little to us.
Brussels is the capital of the European Union. It doesn't mean we worry overmuch about what's going on there.
[bold]Edinburgh is our capital city.[/bold]
ares_apollo wrote:
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:24pm today **** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ? **** off ares. This is a Scottish newspaper - London is not the capital here. As you racists like to say - why don't you go back to your own country ? Telling me to go back to my own country IS a racist remark in itself. And I am right here in London..The CAPITAL of the UK..I simply have an interest in Scottish issues as I love the country so much and would hate to see Scotland going the same way as England has !
Edinburgh is the capital here.
London means very little to us.
Brussels is the capital of the European Union. It doesn't mean we worry overmuch about what's going on there.
Edinburgh is our capital city. Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:23pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Tris[quote]Must be loads of thieves about at that time of the night wondering where they can get a pint of milk to nab and maybe cash it in for some smack![/quote] LoL. That hit the mark.
Cat burglars, the lot of them.
Tris
Must be loads of thieves about at that time of the night wondering where they can get a pint of milk to nab and maybe cash it in for some smack!
LoL. That hit the mark.
Cat burglars, the lot of them.
Posted by: ares_apollo, London on 11:55pm Sat 5 Jul 08
ares_apollo wrote:
Observer. I fully understand that racism in Scotland has another name.. Isn't it called the SNP ? We here in England are forbidden by pc laws to be nationalistic..But Scots have the freedoms of even being able to vote an openly racist political party into power.
You really are an arse. You are advocating deporting British citizens if their parentage was not ''indigenous''. And you have the cheek to call us racist ? No one is forbidding you from being English. The English, by and large, are a good people, I should know, I lived in London for many years. But people like you, with your narrow minded view of the world, unable to understand anyone elses opinion or even comprehend a sarcastic comment, do not give your fellow citizens a good name.
And who are YOU to lecture me on who is and isn't British?
Many English people no longer consider Scots as 'British'..That may be because they are fed up with Scots riding the gravy train and getting all the benefits that Britishness gets.
Come to think of it..Down here in the developed world, the Scot will be an immigrant come Scottish independance!
ares_apollo wrote:
Observer. I fully understand that racism in Scotland has another name.. Isn't it called the SNP ? We here in England are forbidden by pc laws to be nationalistic..But Scots have the freedoms of even being able to vote an openly racist political party into power.
You really are an arse. You are advocating deporting British citizens if their parentage was not ''indigenous''. And you have the cheek to call us racist ? No one is forbidding you from being English. The English, by and large, are a good people, I should know, I lived in London for many years. But people like you, with your narrow minded view of the world, unable to understand anyone elses opinion or even comprehend a sarcastic comment, do not give your fellow citizens a good name.
And who are YOU to lecture me on who is and isn't British?
Many English people no longer consider Scots as 'British'..That may be because they are fed up with Scots riding the gravy train and getting all the benefits that Britishness gets.
Come to think of it..Down here in the developed world, the Scot will be an immigrant come Scottish independance!
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 12:03am Sun 6 Jul 08
tris,11:06pm. I was only indulging because I was a Van Boy lots of years ago with Scottish Mulk, in the Calton, Glesga.[bold]bold[/bold]
tris,11:06pm. I was only indulging because I was a Van Boy lots of years ago with Scottish Mulk, in the Calton, Glesga.
Posted by: RationalThinker, Glasgow on 11:57am Sun 6 Jul 08
I amy have entered this discussion too late (seems to have veered way off the topic of the article), but the first comment is right to note that the information in it is all about England but doesn't make that very clear. Why not check out the Scottish Prisons Commission Report which discusses crime and the fact that (a) overall rates have declined in Scotland and (b) more people in Scotland think drug and alcohol abuse are big problems than think crime is. The report is at: [bold]www.scottishprisonsc
ommission.info[/bold]
Many of the sources cited in the report are also available online.
I amy have entered this discussion too late (seems to have veered way off the topic of the article), but the first comment is right to note that the information in it is all about England but doesn't make that very clear. Why not check out the Scottish Prisons Commission Report which discusses crime and the fact that (a) overall rates have declined in Scotland and (b) more people in Scotland think drug and alcohol abuse are big problems than think crime is. The report is at:
www.scottishprisonsc
ommission.info
Many of the sources cited in the report are also available online.
Posted by: sigholm, ayr on 1:05pm Sun 6 Jul 08
Of course violent crime will rise. As long as these half-witted, new-labour, carpetbaggers are in power crime will ever increase.
What other country Imports crime, by allowing the Dregs of other Nations to reside here.
Their self-interest, greed and inability to represent the electorate has dealt our society a blow, which if allowed to go unchecked, will take many years to recover from.
Of course violent crime will rise. As long as these half-witted, new-labour, carpetbaggers are in power crime will ever increase.
What other country Imports crime, by allowing the Dregs of other Nations to reside here.
Their self-interest, greed and inability to represent the electorate has dealt our society a blow, which if allowed to go unchecked, will take many years to recover from.
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