Army visits to Scottish schools soar by 180% in three years
Army recruitment team visits to Scottish schools went up by more than 180% in the last three years, The Herald can reveal.
The news, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also shows that a handful of secondary schools, such as Shawlands Academy in Glasgow and Montrose Academy in Angus, received up to 10 visits in a single year.
Whitburn Academy had 32 presentations over three years, Bathgate Academy 29, Armadale Academy 21, George Watson's Academy 20 and the exclusive Fettes 15.
The SNP's Christine Grahame, South of Scotland MSP, who sought the figures from Whitehall, called yesterday for an immediate ban on military careers' presentations in schools, describing them as "inappropriate".
Her call comes two weeks after the National Union of Teachers voted to block future military careers' presentations to pupils as young as 14 in England and Wales.
Despite the outlay of almost £500m, in 2006-07 the field army - the frontline operational part
of UK ground forces - missed
its "gains to strength" (GTS) recruitment goal by 12%. In 2007-08, it achieved only 63% of its target.
The FoI documents show that since 2006, there has been a 186% increase in school visits by the Army, a 53% increase by the Royal Navy and a 5.8% increase by the RAF.
Ms Grahame told The Herald: "Once again, we have evidence that the Armed Forces and specifically the Army is seeking to deal with the massive shortfall in recruits by targeting schools.
"Schools are wholly inappropriate environments for any sort of armed forces recruitment drive. The rise in recruitment visits correlates directly to the retention and personnel strength of the army falling away dramatically in recent years.
"They are trying to plug that hole by going into schools and selling an image of life in the armed forces that bears little resemblance to the reality."
But the MoD yesterday denied that the risks of an Army career were ever misrepresented and insisted that teams only visited schools at the invitation of headteachers or education authorities.
MoD spokesman Major Philip Curtis said: " The Army is no different from any other organisation offering a career to school leavers. To exclude the forces from doing so would be direct discrimination, a restriction of choice and would prevent young people from pursuing an honourable profession."
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Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 2:41am Mon 12 May 08
Army visits to Scottish schools soar by 180% in three years
The truth is the British army has always used the '' jocks '' as cannon fodder.
Army visits to Scottish schools soar by 180% in three years
The truth is the British army has always used the '' jocks '' as cannon fodder.
Posted by: Neil, Aberdeenshire on 3:40am Mon 12 May 08
They are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and [bold]no great mischief if they fall[/bold] .
They are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and
no great mischief if they fall .
Posted by: shimfer, Kabul on 5:19am Mon 12 May 08
Could the civvies stop using the phrase "cannon fodder", thank you!
Could the civvies stop using the phrase "cannon fodder", thank you!
Posted by: Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 7:47am Mon 12 May 08
A 168% increase by Army recruitment teams to schools in the last 2 years.
This is disgraceful. The recruitment of children to any of the armed services should be stopped as a matter of urgency.
Whether it is "an honourable profession" is a matter of opinion.
A 168% increase by Army recruitment teams to schools in the last 2 years.
This is disgraceful. The recruitment of children to any of the armed services should be stopped as a matter of urgency.
Whether it is "an honourable profession" is a matter of opinion.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 7:50am Mon 12 May 08
I'm with the armed forces on this one.
They offer a variety of education experiences that some kids just wouldn't get in civi-street.
I'm with the armed forces on this one.
They offer a variety of education experiences that some kids just wouldn't get in civi-street.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 7:58am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]shimfer[/bold] wrote:
Could the civvies stop using the phrase "cannon fodder", thank you![/quote] Sorry Shimfer, that's what we were and you now are. Have a read of Kiplings "barrackroom Ballads" and you'll see that nothing has changed. Least of all on the "Northwest Frontier" against the Tribemen. I had a relative who was up there in the 1930s and was just glad to get out. The only difference is now we're not the imperial power calling the shots but imperial auxiliaries doing as we're told by the new imperial masters.
Personally I think that army are on a losing streak here as it's not just the kids they've got to convince but also their parents. OK, many youngsters from extremely poor and disadvantaged backgrounds will join up as poverty has always been the army's main recruiting sergeant but it's becoming more and more difficult to get youngsters with good education and future prospects to join up and fight for queen and country, when you've not managed to convince their parents of it's legitimacy.
shimfer wrote:
Could the civvies stop using the phrase "cannon fodder", thank you!
Sorry Shimfer, that's what we were and you now are. Have a read of Kiplings "barrackroom Ballads" and you'll see that nothing has changed. Least of all on the "Northwest Frontier" against the Tribemen. I had a relative who was up there in the 1930s and was just glad to get out. The only difference is now we're not the imperial power calling the shots but imperial auxiliaries doing as we're told by the new imperial masters.
Personally I think that army are on a losing streak here as it's not just the kids they've got to convince but also their parents. OK, many youngsters from extremely poor and disadvantaged backgrounds will join up as poverty has always been the army's main recruiting sergeant but it's becoming more and more difficult to get youngsters with good education and future prospects to join up and fight for queen and country, when you've not managed to convince their parents of it's legitimacy.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 8:09am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Wardog[/bold] wrote:
I'm with the armed forces on this one.
They offer a variety of education experiences that some kids just wouldn't get in civi-street.[/quote]
Lets also not get overheated about this, the proportion of kids going into the armed forces is miniscule compared to other higher education and employment routes.
Any decent school will have a wide range of visiting employers presentations come to their school to entice the kids to join them.
The armed forces seem to be an acceptable part of this wide ranging recruitment drive.
Wardog wrote:
I'm with the armed forces on this one.
They offer a variety of education experiences that some kids just wouldn't get in civi-street.
Lets also not get overheated about this, the proportion of kids going into the armed forces is miniscule compared to other higher education and employment routes.
Any decent school will have a wide range of visiting employers presentations come to their school to entice the kids to join them.
The armed forces seem to be an acceptable part of this wide ranging recruitment drive.
Posted by: Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 8:10am Mon 12 May 08
In June 2007, the EIS teacher's union in Perth passed a motion calling for a ban on army recruitment teams in schools.
Despite spending pounds90million on recruitment campaigns in the year 05/06 the British Army reported a humiliating disinterest. At the same time we learned more soldiers were resigning than were joining.
Historically, the armed services have targeted the poorest and most deprived districts with promises of "seeing the world" and learning skills. Recruits are economic conscripts in other words.
Faced with the choice of a McJob with low pay and mindnumbing conditions with no protection or trade union membership, it is not surprising some might seriously consider the army.
However, the SNP and the better parliamentarians at Holyrood must now make this issue a priority and ban the army from our schools.
Wardog, Buckie - what regiment were you in?
In June 2007, the EIS teacher's union in Perth passed a motion calling for a ban on army recruitment teams in schools.
Despite spending pounds90million on recruitment campaigns in the year 05/06 the British Army reported a humiliating disinterest. At the same time we learned more soldiers were resigning than were joining.
Historically, the armed services have targeted the poorest and most deprived districts with promises of "seeing the world" and learning skills. Recruits are economic conscripts in other words.
Faced with the choice of a McJob with low pay and mindnumbing conditions with no protection or trade union membership, it is not surprising some might seriously consider the army.
However, the SNP and the better parliamentarians at Holyrood must now make this issue a priority and ban the army from our schools.
Wardog, Buckie - what regiment were you in?
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 8:22am Mon 12 May 08
Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 8:10am today
I'm not in any regiment but have family ties within the Highlanders.
I've seen a number of people have successful career's as soldiers/engineers, indeed I've seen the army/air force/navy help a number of people out though university getting degree's where they would not have been able to do this had these kids been left to pay fee's/loans themselves.
It's important that the SNP don't cloud this issue with the tragic continuing events in Iraq and Afghanistan. The armed forces do represent a decent opportunity for many and shouldn't be closed off because of political views.
I'd sooner see Macdonald's banned from advertising on TV than the armed forces being banned from presenting what they have to offer in Schools.
Where do you draw the line?
Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 8:10am today
I'm not in any regiment but have family ties within the Highlanders.
I've seen a number of people have successful career's as soldiers/engineers, indeed I've seen the army/air force/navy help a number of people out though university getting degree's where they would not have been able to do this had these kids been left to pay fee's/loans themselves.
It's important that the SNP don't cloud this issue with the tragic continuing events in Iraq and Afghanistan. The armed forces do represent a decent opportunity for many and shouldn't be closed off because of political views.
I'd sooner see Macdonald's banned from advertising on TV than the armed forces being banned from presenting what they have to offer in Schools.
Where do you draw the line?
Posted by: spagan, heisker, scotland on 8:31am Mon 12 May 08
What's wrong currently are the illegal wars that Westminster committed to.
Scotland should remain proud of their servicemen and women.
Historically they have been cannon fodder - used and abused by the rich, wealth and powerful. However to greater or lesser extenst so are most of us in our daily lives.
The forces have provided worthwhile careers for many - and in an independent Scotland I'm sure our forces will be involved in peacekeeping with the UN in years to come - hopefully providing humanitarian aid and assistance where required.
Slainte Mhor
What's wrong currently are the illegal wars that Westminster committed to.
Scotland should remain proud of their servicemen and women.
Historically they have been cannon fodder - used and abused by the rich, wealth and powerful. However to greater or lesser extenst so are most of us in our daily lives.
The forces have provided worthwhile careers for many - and in an independent Scotland I'm sure our forces will be involved in peacekeeping with the UN in years to come - hopefully providing humanitarian aid and assistance where required.
Slainte Mhor
Posted by: robmcdonald, East Kilbride on 8:33am Mon 12 May 08
Tsk tsk Herald.... 0% for your shocking maths!
180% indeed! Have you no standards at all now? Sigh!
Tsk tsk Herald.... 0% for your shocking maths!
180% indeed! Have you no standards at all now? Sigh!
Posted by: Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 8:36am Mon 12 May 08
Wardog:
You draw the line at the army spending enormous amounts of money recruiting children in our schools. It is completely inappropriate and with no end in sight to the fiasco in Iraq which has seen over 1million people killed and has cost in excess of pounds5-and-a-half millions, this is the likely destination for these new recruits.
Oh that that amount of money were available to create modern apprenticeships which young people could undertake - then they wouldn't need to join the army.
Wardog:
You draw the line at the army spending enormous amounts of money recruiting children in our schools. It is completely inappropriate and with no end in sight to the fiasco in Iraq which has seen over 1million people killed and has cost in excess of pounds5-and-a-half millions, this is the likely destination for these new recruits.
Oh that that amount of money were available to create modern apprenticeships which young people could undertake - then they wouldn't need to join the army.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 8:51am Mon 12 May 08
Kenny
I don't think you should mix the armed forces recruitment with politics, especially current affairs however wrong and illegal they are.
Look to Westminster if your concerned about the decisions to invade Iraq/Afghanistan and look to the Labour Government if you have concerns over the MoD's recruitment spending
As far as I'm aware the armed forces [bold]are[/bold] part of Labour's [italic]'modern apprenticeships'[/italic]
You've got to remember that within the armed forces, your likely to be gain more experience than many higher education courses offer, everything from JCB Driver through to Electronic Engineer and beyond.
In many cases and as you have already mentioned, people, will get their experience and eventually leave to rejoin civvy street and be highly sought after for the various skills they picked up in the armed forces.
For me a bigger bone of contention is the shocking treatment of our troops with regards to equipment and the conditions in which their families have to live, more money needs to be spent on this.
With regards to drawing the line, where do you stop?
What is it about the armed forces that you don't like?
Kenny
I don't think you should mix the armed forces recruitment with politics, especially current affairs however wrong and illegal they are.
Look to Westminster if your concerned about the decisions to invade Iraq/Afghanistan and look to the Labour Government if you have concerns over the MoD's recruitment spending
As far as I'm aware the armed forces
are part of Labour's
'modern apprenticeships'
You've got to remember that within the armed forces, your likely to be gain more experience than many higher education courses offer, everything from JCB Driver through to Electronic Engineer and beyond.
In many cases and as you have already mentioned, people, will get their experience and eventually leave to rejoin civvy street and be highly sought after for the various skills they picked up in the armed forces.
For me a bigger bone of contention is the shocking treatment of our troops with regards to equipment and the conditions in which their families have to live, more money needs to be spent on this.
With regards to drawing the line, where do you stop?
What is it about the armed forces that you don't like?
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 8:57am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]spagan[/bold] wrote:
What's wrong currently are the illegal wars that Westminster committed to.
Scotland should remain proud of their servicemen and women.
Historically they have been cannon fodder - used and abused by the rich, wealth and powerful. However to greater or lesser extenst so are most of us in our daily lives.
The forces have provided worthwhile careers for many - and in an independent Scotland I'm sure our forces will be involved in peacekeeping with the UN in years to come - hopefully providing humanitarian aid and assistance where required.
Slainte Mhor[/quote]
agreed
spagan wrote:
What's wrong currently are the illegal wars that Westminster committed to.
Scotland should remain proud of their servicemen and women.
Historically they have been cannon fodder - used and abused by the rich, wealth and powerful. However to greater or lesser extenst so are most of us in our daily lives.
The forces have provided worthwhile careers for many - and in an independent Scotland I'm sure our forces will be involved in peacekeeping with the UN in years to come - hopefully providing humanitarian aid and assistance where required.
Slainte Mhor
agreed
Posted by: Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 9:05am Mon 12 May 08
Wardog:
I have no gripe with young men and women who serve in the armed forces, but I disagree that you can seperate politics from this.
The illegal action in Iraq is about imperialist powers invading a sovereign nation to exploit its oil. For the Halliburton's and the array of gangsters involved, young British soldiers are being killed and at least 1 million Iraqi's are dead.
The main issue here is not whether I like the armed forces or the illegal war in Iraq. The main point is that children in our schools are being seduced by the promise of the good life and learning a trade.
We're continually told there's no money but 5 and a half billion has been spent on Iraq and THAT is where these young recruits will be sent. Stick to the point.
Wardog:
I have no gripe with young men and women who serve in the armed forces, but I disagree that you can seperate politics from this.
The illegal action in Iraq is about imperialist powers invading a sovereign nation to exploit its oil. For the Halliburton's and the array of gangsters involved, young British soldiers are being killed and at least 1 million Iraqi's are dead.
The main issue here is not whether I like the armed forces or the illegal war in Iraq. The main point is that children in our schools are being seduced by the promise of the good life and learning a trade.
We're continually told there's no money but 5 and a half billion has been spent on Iraq and THAT is where these young recruits will be sent. Stick to the point.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:07am Mon 12 May 08
Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 8:36am today
PS
Iraq & Afghanistan has cost well over £5 BILLION
Trident is estimated to be £25 BILLION
Whilst i don;'t dispute your figure regarding deaths in Iraq, the official documented body count is lower....
www.iraqbodycount.or
g
It's still a blood stained blight on the UK and on the Labour/Tory alliance at Westminister and Holyrood that voted for the invasions.
Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge on 8:36am today
PS
Iraq & Afghanistan has cost well over £5 BILLION
Trident is estimated to be £25 BILLION
Whilst i don;'t dispute your figure regarding deaths in Iraq, the official documented body count is lower....
www.iraqbodycount.or
g
It's still a blood stained blight on the UK and on the Labour/Tory alliance at Westminister and Holyrood that voted for the invasions.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 9:15am Mon 12 May 08
[quote]You've got to remember that within the armed forces, your likely to be gain more experience than many higher education courses offer, everything from JCB Driver through to Electronic Engineer and beyond.[/quote]
Wardog, the recruiters aren't looking for budding engineers, they have plenty of those volunteering, as do the Air Force and Navy. The biggest turnover/loss is in infantry, their cannon fodder, the grunts, the boots, gravel crushers! Many who they might have taken in the past are now considered physically and mentally unfit, as even being a basic infantryman requires a much higher degree of intelligence than in the 40s' 50s and 60s when it was only the trusty Lee Enfield and face to your front, they had to cope with. Few of them come out of the army prepared for civilian life and the largest number of people living on the streets are ex army.
You've got to remember that within the armed forces, your likely to be gain more experience than many higher education courses offer, everything from JCB Driver through to Electronic Engineer and beyond.
Wardog, the recruiters aren't looking for budding engineers, they have plenty of those volunteering, as do the Air Force and Navy. The biggest turnover/loss is in infantry, their cannon fodder, the grunts, the boots, gravel crushers! Many who they might have taken in the past are now considered physically and mentally unfit, as even being a basic infantryman requires a much higher degree of intelligence than in the 40s' 50s and 60s when it was only the trusty Lee Enfield and face to your front, they had to cope with. Few of them come out of the army prepared for civilian life and the largest number of people living on the streets are ex army.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:15am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Kenny McGuigan[/bold] wrote:
Wardog:
I have no gripe with young men and women who serve in the armed forces, but I disagree that you can seperate politics from this.
The illegal action in Iraq is about imperialist powers invading a sovereign nation to exploit its oil. For the Halliburton's and the array of gangsters involved, young British soldiers are being killed and at least 1 million Iraqi's are dead.
The main issue here is not whether I like the armed forces or the illegal war in Iraq. The main point is that children in our schools are being seduced by the promise of the good life and learning a trade.
We're continually told there's no money but 5 and a half billion has been spent on Iraq and THAT is where these young recruits will be sent. Stick to the point.[/quote]
Kenny
I'm against the wars and have been since before they started.
I'm still not willing to mix up recruitment with these wars, to do so would to deny the UK armed forces involvement with a multitude of recent humanitarian aid efforts for the sake of a Labour/Tory war mongering alliance.
If your stance regarding this issue has been consistent (which i suspect it has been by your use of imperialist powers) over the last few decades, then fair enough.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Just out of interest and I'm not being vindictive, but have you ever seen the armed forces presentations in schools?
Kenny McGuigan wrote:
Wardog:
I have no gripe with young men and women who serve in the armed forces, but I disagree that you can seperate politics from this.
The illegal action in Iraq is about imperialist powers invading a sovereign nation to exploit its oil. For the Halliburton's and the array of gangsters involved, young British soldiers are being killed and at least 1 million Iraqi's are dead.
The main issue here is not whether I like the armed forces or the illegal war in Iraq. The main point is that children in our schools are being seduced by the promise of the good life and learning a trade.
We're continually told there's no money but 5 and a half billion has been spent on Iraq and THAT is where these young recruits will be sent. Stick to the point.
Kenny
I'm against the wars and have been since before they started.
I'm still not willing to mix up recruitment with these wars, to do so would to deny the UK armed forces involvement with a multitude of recent humanitarian aid efforts for the sake of a Labour/Tory war mongering alliance.
If your stance regarding this issue has been consistent (which i suspect it has been by your use of imperialist powers) over the last few decades, then fair enough.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Just out of interest and I'm not being vindictive, but have you ever seen the armed forces presentations in schools?
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:19am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]McSomeone[/bold] wrote:
[quote]You've got to remember that within the armed forces, your likely to be gain more experience than many higher education courses offer, everything from JCB Driver through to Electronic Engineer and beyond.[/quote]
Wardog, the recruiters aren't looking for budding engineers, they have plenty of those volunteering, as do the Air Force and Navy. The biggest turnover/loss is in infantry, their cannon fodder, the grunts, the boots, gravel crushers! Many who they might have taken in the past are now considered physically and mentally unfit, as even being a basic infantryman requires a much higher degree of intelligence than in the 40s' 50s and 60s when it was only the trusty Lee Enfield and face to your front, they had to cope with. Few of them come out of the army prepared for civilian life and the largest number of people living on the streets are ex army.[/quote]
That's not my experience, I employ two of them
McSomeone wrote:
You've got to remember that within the armed forces, your likely to be gain more experience than many higher education courses offer, everything from JCB Driver through to Electronic Engineer and beyond.
Wardog, the recruiters aren't looking for budding engineers, they have plenty of those volunteering, as do the Air Force and Navy. The biggest turnover/loss is in infantry, their cannon fodder, the grunts, the boots, gravel crushers! Many who they might have taken in the past are now considered physically and mentally unfit, as even being a basic infantryman requires a much higher degree of intelligence than in the 40s' 50s and 60s when it was only the trusty Lee Enfield and face to your front, they had to cope with. Few of them come out of the army prepared for civilian life and the largest number of people living on the streets are ex army.
That's not my experience, I employ two of them
Posted by: Seoc Colla, Glasgow on 9:24am Mon 12 May 08
Schools are provided and funded for educational purposes.
Indoctrination, whether political, religious or military have NO place in schools and if the parents do really wish for it, it is entirely a matter for them to provide and finance.
If these military visits are claimed to be 'educational', then competing views such as Conscientious Objection and Pacifism must also be equally presented to the students.
Schools are provided and funded for educational purposes.
Indoctrination, whether political, religious or military have NO place in schools and if the parents do really wish for it, it is entirely a matter for them to provide and finance.
If these military visits are claimed to be 'educational', then competing views such as Conscientious Objection and Pacifism must also be equally presented to the students.
Posted by: Rab Jones, Glasgow on 9:34am Mon 12 May 08
I'drather have my son joining the army, than hanging round street corners, drinking buckfast and picking up brew money.
I'drather have my son joining the army, than hanging round street corners, drinking buckfast and picking up brew money.
Posted by: Rab Jones, Glasgow on 9:34am Mon 12 May 08
I'drather have my son joining the army, than hanging round street corners, drinking buckfast and picking up brew money.
I'drather have my son joining the army, than hanging round street corners, drinking buckfast and picking up brew money.
Posted by: Rab Jones, Glasgow on 9:43am Mon 12 May 08
Bring back National Service, even if its only for 6 months.
Just look at the "Gentle giant killed for refusing to fight" story, and tell me we don't need it.
There's no respect for humanity, life or anything these days amongst youngsters.
Bring back National Service, even if its only for 6 months.
Just look at the "Gentle giant killed for refusing to fight" story, and tell me we don't need it.
There's no respect for humanity, life or anything these days amongst youngsters.
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 9:57am Mon 12 May 08
There is a bit of hype about this I am not sure that the story is entirely accurate, because from experience there are a variety of Tri-service people attending schools and some are directly involved in recruiting and others indirectly; by directly I mean recruiting teams presenting directly to pupils and Army Youth Teams, if they still exist, doing adventure training activities with the puplis. Therefore 10 visits a year in a school may not be that many and the head teacher may actually encourge some visits.
There are a couple of issues here; UK government policy on Iraq and Afghanistan - the resistance to this and the recruitment of troops to support the those operations.
Until government changes, or the current one does a 'U"-turn or a military defeat, we are stuck with the policies for Iraq and Afghanistan.
However if you try and change policy by not allowing recruitment in Schools, and elsewhere, it could work, but it means in the future you have in effect cut off a recruitment avenue. So if there is a future change in policy the door may aleady be shut to recruiting in schools, we will end up with conscription - how popular would that be?
There is a bit of hype about this I am not sure that the story is entirely accurate, because from experience there are a variety of Tri-service people attending schools and some are directly involved in recruiting and others indirectly; by directly I mean recruiting teams presenting directly to pupils and Army Youth Teams, if they still exist, doing adventure training activities with the puplis. Therefore 10 visits a year in a school may not be that many and the head teacher may actually encourge some visits.
There are a couple of issues here; UK government policy on Iraq and Afghanistan - the resistance to this and the recruitment of troops to support the those operations.
Until government changes, or the current one does a 'U"-turn or a military defeat, we are stuck with the policies for Iraq and Afghanistan.
However if you try and change policy by not allowing recruitment in Schools, and elsewhere, it could work, but it means in the future you have in effect cut off a recruitment avenue. So if there is a future change in policy the door may aleady be shut to recruiting in schools, we will end up with conscription - how popular would that be?
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 9:57am Mon 12 May 08
[quote]That's not my experience, I employ two of them[/quote]
Wardog, employing two doesn't make you an expert. Go to SSAFA , British Legion and other service charity websites as well as Homeless charities. British Legion has done a lot of work in that area and Shelter usually have good statistics as to who is living rough and why.
[quote]I'drather have my son joining the army, than hanging round street corners, drinking buckfast and picking up brew money.[/quote]
Not if they're going to die in stupid and illegal wars for the egos of politicians and profits of multinationals I wouldn't.
That's not my experience, I employ two of them
Wardog, employing two doesn't make you an expert. Go to SSAFA , British Legion and other service charity websites as well as Homeless charities. British Legion has done a lot of work in that area and Shelter usually have good statistics as to who is living rough and why.
I'drather have my son joining the army, than hanging round street corners, drinking buckfast and picking up brew money.
Not if they're going to die in stupid and illegal wars for the egos of politicians and profits of multinationals I wouldn't.
Posted by: Liam, Glasgow on 9:58am Mon 12 May 08
"Iraqbodycount" is not the official documented body count. There is in fact no official body count, as the occupying forces decided not to bother, too much potential for bad press you see. IBC is a project which aims to document the deaths in Iraq by simply counting the number of dead reported in English language media. Anybody spot the basic flaw in that methodology? It currently lists civilian deaths at around the 90k mark. Epidiemiologists report that this methodology captures around 5% of the true number of deaths.
Opinion Research Business, a credible polling agnecy with past customers such as the tories and the BBC, reported last September that 1.2 million excess deaths had occured in Iraq. This was routinely ignored by the media, who still insist on referring to the IBC figure.
Its no wonder that Wardog is confused!
And sorry for straying off topic, but the whole IBC really gets my goat. For more read:
http://www.medialens
.org/alerts/07/07100
3_iraq_body_count.ph
p
"Iraqbodycount" is not the official documented body count. There is in fact no official body count, as the occupying forces decided not to bother, too much potential for bad press you see. IBC is a project which aims to document the deaths in Iraq by simply counting the number of dead reported in English language media. Anybody spot the basic flaw in that methodology? It currently lists civilian deaths at around the 90k mark. Epidiemiologists report that this methodology captures around 5% of the true number of deaths.
Opinion Research Business, a credible polling agnecy with past customers such as the tories and the BBC, reported last September that 1.2 million excess deaths had occured in Iraq. This was routinely ignored by the media, who still insist on referring to the IBC figure.
Its no wonder that Wardog is confused!
And sorry for straying off topic, but the whole IBC really gets my goat. For more read:
http://www.medialens
.org/alerts/07/07100
3_iraq_body_count.ph
p
Posted by: Liam, Glasgow on 10:00am Mon 12 May 08
"Iraqbodycount" is not the official documented body count. There is in fact no official body count, as the occupying forces decided not to bother, too much potential for bad press you see. IBC is a project which aims to document the deaths in Iraq by simply counting the number of dead reported in English language media. Anybody spot the basic flaw in that methodology? It currently lists civilian deaths at around the 90k mark. Epidiemiologists report that this methodology captures around 5% of the true number of deaths.
Opinion Research Business, a credible polling agnecy with past customers such as the tories and the BBC, reported last September that 1.2 million excess deaths had occured in Iraq. This was routinely ignored by the media, who still insist on referring to the IBC figure.
Its no wonder that Wardog is confused!
And sorry for straying off topic, but the whole IBC really gets my goat. For more read:
http://www.medialens
.org/alerts/07/07100
3_iraq_body_count.ph
p
"Iraqbodycount" is not the official documented body count. There is in fact no official body count, as the occupying forces decided not to bother, too much potential for bad press you see. IBC is a project which aims to document the deaths in Iraq by simply counting the number of dead reported in English language media. Anybody spot the basic flaw in that methodology? It currently lists civilian deaths at around the 90k mark. Epidiemiologists report that this methodology captures around 5% of the true number of deaths.
Opinion Research Business, a credible polling agnecy with past customers such as the tories and the BBC, reported last September that 1.2 million excess deaths had occured in Iraq. This was routinely ignored by the media, who still insist on referring to the IBC figure.
Its no wonder that Wardog is confused!
And sorry for straying off topic, but the whole IBC really gets my goat. For more read:
http://www.medialens
.org/alerts/07/07100
3_iraq_body_count.ph
p
Posted by: Colin B, Bearsden on 10:10am Mon 12 May 08
Appeasement from Kenny mcGuigan -serving in the forces is a moreworthwhile profession than the trendy right on socialist teachers who brainwash many children into voting Labour- why are left wingers so complacent with our freedom and democracy?
Appeasement from Kenny mcGuigan -serving in the forces is a moreworthwhile profession than the trendy right on socialist teachers who brainwash many children into voting Labour- why are left wingers so complacent with our freedom and democracy?
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 10:16am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Colin B[/bold] wrote:
Appeasement from Kenny mcGuigan -serving in the forces is a moreworthwhile profession than the trendy right on socialist teachers who brainwash many children into voting Labour- why are left wingers so complacent with our freedom and democracy?[/quote] Nah mate, it's a dying profession!
Colin B wrote:
Appeasement from Kenny mcGuigan -serving in the forces is a moreworthwhile profession than the trendy right on socialist teachers who brainwash many children into voting Labour- why are left wingers so complacent with our freedom and democracy?
Nah mate, it's a dying profession!
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 11:19am Mon 12 May 08
All military recruitment visits should be stopped immediately. There are plenty of opportunities to recruit young men and woman in civi-street. School Children should be left alone. Have other civilian employers also increased their visits by the same amount?
Questions is, has the same level of recruitment visits been seen in Southern English schools, or has it just been in Scotland, North of England and Wales.
This is a perfectly valid way for people to protest the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Protest to your School Governing body and to the Scottish Government that recruitment drives in Schools should be stopped.
If a YOUNG ADULT is persuaded to join the military, I have no problems with that, and I doubt if they will be persuade otherwise just because there was no school visits.The military does give a good education for some who "missed" it at school, and, for some, a good career choice.
Forget about arguments about "discipline" etc, etc. That is Military Discipline - NOT Military Training. I'm all for having kids taught Military Discipline: respect, trust and reliance, not only on yourself, but on others. This can be done without training them to kill people or training in weapons.
All military recruitment visits should be stopped immediately. There are plenty of opportunities to recruit young men and woman in civi-street. School Children should be left alone. Have other civilian employers also increased their visits by the same amount?
Questions is, has the same level of recruitment visits been seen in Southern English schools, or has it just been in Scotland, North of England and Wales.
This is a perfectly valid way for people to protest the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Protest to your School Governing body and to the Scottish Government that recruitment drives in Schools should be stopped.
If a YOUNG ADULT is persuaded to join the military, I have no problems with that, and I doubt if they will be persuade otherwise just because there was no school visits.The military does give a good education for some who "missed" it at school, and, for some, a good career choice.
Forget about arguments about "discipline" etc, etc. That is Military Discipline - NOT Military Training. I'm all for having kids taught Military Discipline: respect, trust and reliance, not only on yourself, but on others. This can be done without training them to kill people or training in weapons.
Posted by: xmal, Dundee on 11:27am Mon 12 May 08
The armed forces have as much right as any potential employer to come into schools. The IES can't dictate who can and can't come into schools. I think that is up to local authorities.
This is all a non-story, I'm afraid.
The armed forces have as much right as any potential employer to come into schools. The IES can't dictate who can and can't come into schools. I think that is up to local authorities.
This is all a non-story, I'm afraid.
Posted by: tompythom, Glasgow on 11:31am Mon 12 May 08
The recruitment of child soldiers is a disgrace.
16 and 17 year old kids think they are bullet-proof and should not be presented with a slick promotional video showing them the wonderful life awaiting them in the army unless they are also shown interviews with veterans who have been physically or mentally traumatised by the reality of war and the thoughts of some bereaved parents whose sons have died fighting for Queen and country.
The recruitment of child soldiers is a disgrace.
16 and 17 year old kids think they are bullet-proof and should not be presented with a slick promotional video showing them the wonderful life awaiting them in the army unless they are also shown interviews with veterans who have been physically or mentally traumatised by the reality of war and the thoughts of some bereaved parents whose sons have died fighting for Queen and country.
Posted by: Eh?, Glasgow on 11:59am Mon 12 May 08
I would dispute the phrase a highly honourable career. Where is teh honour in bombing villages. Where is teh honour in killing other human beings, where is teh honour in being a a pawn in teh games of egotistical leaders, where is teh honour in giving up your right to think and makes decisions based on your own moral compass to borrow a phrase from a politican who has clearly misplaced his own compass.
Entering schools to sell lies to impresionable children is an outrage which should be stopped. It is bad enough my son being bombarded with TV adverts showing the army as one big game and giving a slanted view of their role but bringing it in to an establishment which is for their education should be outlawed.
I get great comfort from tehf act that our young genreation are capable of ignoring the blatant propaganda of thwse warmongers and not joining.
As for teh Scots as cannon fodder the facts speak for themselves. in the 1991 first gulf war, 2 thirds of british troops were Scottish, the same numbers are true today. In teh first world war the first wave of trioops over the top were alwatys the Scots and the irish.
Im no Nat but if voting independence results in us as a nation pulling out of these imperial adventures in teh middle east then I will be voting Yes at the referendum and I would hope others would follow suit
I would dispute the phrase a highly honourable career. Where is teh honour in bombing villages. Where is teh honour in killing other human beings, where is teh honour in being a a pawn in teh games of egotistical leaders, where is teh honour in giving up your right to think and makes decisions based on your own moral compass to borrow a phrase from a politican who has clearly misplaced his own compass.
Entering schools to sell lies to impresionable children is an outrage which should be stopped. It is bad enough my son being bombarded with TV adverts showing the army as one big game and giving a slanted view of their role but bringing it in to an establishment which is for their education should be outlawed.
I get great comfort from tehf act that our young genreation are capable of ignoring the blatant propaganda of thwse warmongers and not joining.
As for teh Scots as cannon fodder the facts speak for themselves. in the 1991 first gulf war, 2 thirds of british troops were Scottish, the same numbers are true today. In teh first world war the first wave of trioops over the top were alwatys the Scots and the irish.
Im no Nat but if voting independence results in us as a nation pulling out of these imperial adventures in teh middle east then I will be voting Yes at the referendum and I would hope others would follow suit
Posted by: Eh?, Glasgow on 12:02pm Mon 12 May 08
Apologies for not spell checking I must learn to type!
Apologies for not spell checking I must learn to type!
Posted by: realist, Scotland on 12:15pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Eh?[/bold] wrote:
I would dispute the phrase a highly honourable career. Where is teh honour in bombing villages. Where is teh honour in killing other human beings, where is teh honour in being a a pawn in teh games of egotistical leaders, where is teh honour in giving up your right to think and makes decisions based on your own moral compass to borrow a phrase from a politican who has clearly misplaced his own compass. Entering schools to sell lies to impresionable children is an outrage which should be stopped. It is bad enough my son being bombarded with TV adverts showing the army as one big game and giving a slanted view of their role but bringing it in to an establishment which is for their education should be outlawed. I get great comfort from tehf act that our young genreation are capable of ignoring the blatant propaganda of thwse warmongers and not joining. As for teh Scots as cannon fodder the facts speak for themselves. in the 1991 first gulf war, 2 thirds of british troops were Scottish, the same numbers are true today. In teh first world war the first wave of trioops over the top were alwatys the Scots and the irish. Im no Nat but if voting independence results in us as a nation pulling out of these imperial adventures in teh middle east then I will be voting Yes at the referendum and I would hope others would follow suit[/quote] Scottish troops are treated exactly the same as very other service man in the armed forces. this cannon fodder chip is embarassing. as for making up 2 thirds of the personnel deployed during gulf war one or now I suggest you try a bit of counting never mind spelling.
Eh? wrote:
I would dispute the phrase a highly honourable career. Where is teh honour in bombing villages. Where is teh honour in killing other human beings, where is teh honour in being a a pawn in teh games of egotistical leaders, where is teh honour in giving up your right to think and makes decisions based on your own moral compass to borrow a phrase from a politican who has clearly misplaced his own compass. Entering schools to sell lies to impresionable children is an outrage which should be stopped. It is bad enough my son being bombarded with TV adverts showing the army as one big game and giving a slanted view of their role but bringing it in to an establishment which is for their education should be outlawed. I get great comfort from tehf act that our young genreation are capable of ignoring the blatant propaganda of thwse warmongers and not joining. As for teh Scots as cannon fodder the facts speak for themselves. in the 1991 first gulf war, 2 thirds of british troops were Scottish, the same numbers are true today. In teh first world war the first wave of trioops over the top were alwatys the Scots and the irish. Im no Nat but if voting independence results in us as a nation pulling out of these imperial adventures in teh middle east then I will be voting Yes at the referendum and I would hope others would follow suit
Scottish troops are treated exactly the same as very other service man in the armed forces. this cannon fodder chip is embarassing. as for making up 2 thirds of the personnel deployed during gulf war one or now I suggest you try a bit of counting never mind spelling.
Posted by: britfree, camelon on 1:30pm Mon 12 May 08
Scottish soldiers ? NO SUCH THING . the paid thugs of the brit - state parading in the clown check parody of a culture the same state took such pleasure in destroying . if we dont stop mythologising the brit-state death machine ,then no wonder they find us childishly easy to co-opt . wardog and his ilk should grow a non brit-state spine
Scottish soldiers ? NO SUCH THING . the paid thugs of the brit - state parading in the clown check parody of a culture the same state took such pleasure in destroying . if we dont stop mythologising the brit-state death machine ,then no wonder they find us childishly easy to co-opt . wardog and his ilk should grow a non brit-state spine
Posted by: Duncan B, Glasgow on 1:31pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Rab Jones[/bold] wrote:
Bring back National Service, even if its only for 6 months.
Just look at the "Gentle giant killed for refusing to fight" story, and tell me we don't need it.
There's no respect for humanity, life or anything these days amongst youngsters.[/quote] Yes and how many other gentle giants of immaculate character, as no doubt this young lad was, have been killed in Iraq by our armed forces? How many Iraqi families are suffering what this UK family is suffering, but at the hands of occupying forces who care so little of them that they even don't count how many are killed at their hands?
This is the [italic]actual[/italic] army that are recruiting in our schools not another nice peaceful army that Wardog seems to think exists.
Rab Jones wrote:
Bring back National Service, even if its only for 6 months.
Just look at the "Gentle giant killed for refusing to fight" story, and tell me we don't need it.
There's no respect for humanity, life or anything these days amongst youngsters.
Yes and how many other gentle giants of immaculate character, as no doubt this young lad was, have been killed in Iraq by our armed forces? How many Iraqi families are suffering what this UK family is suffering, but at the hands of occupying forces who care so little of them that they even don't count how many are killed at their hands?
This is the
actual army that are recruiting in our schools not another nice peaceful army that Wardog seems to think exists.
Posted by: JBlackley, Florida on 2:38pm Mon 12 May 08
I'm a bit bemused by the uproar about the armed forces sending recruiting teams to schools. A career in the forces is a legitimate choice to offer a teenager and one that has high potential to provide a confortable life once he or she returns to 'civvy street'.
Of course, armed services are required to go into harm's way wherever and whenever the government chooses. Bleating about "illegal" wars or fighting other governments' battles is, in this argument, pointless. If the government were only to commit our armed forces to wars that all of the population supported, Britain would have been invaded and overrun more than once in the past century.
Fortunately, fewer and fewer schoolchildren feel the need to use the armed forces as a career choice. Of course, this is aggravated by the news of current wars (any time you have an all-volunteer force, the certainty of actually having to fight will drive down recruitment) and the increasing number of choices available to the kids. As this continues, Britain's armed forces must evolve and new thought and new approaches to our involvements in conflcts must be developed.
I'm a bit bemused by the uproar about the armed forces sending recruiting teams to schools. A career in the forces is a legitimate choice to offer a teenager and one that has high potential to provide a confortable life once he or she returns to 'civvy street'.
Of course, armed services are required to go into harm's way wherever and whenever the government chooses. Bleating about "illegal" wars or fighting other governments' battles is, in this argument, pointless. If the government were only to commit our armed forces to wars that all of the population supported, Britain would have been invaded and overrun more than once in the past century.
Fortunately, fewer and fewer schoolchildren feel the need to use the armed forces as a career choice. Of course, this is aggravated by the news of current wars (any time you have an all-volunteer force, the certainty of actually having to fight will drive down recruitment) and the increasing number of choices available to the kids. As this continues, Britain's armed forces must evolve and new thought and new approaches to our involvements in conflcts must be developed.
Posted by: Eh?, Glasgow on 3:07pm Mon 12 May 08
Realist, go check the figures of the troops deployed at the outset of the first Gulf war and you will find that my figures are accurate. Indeed you may find the figures for the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also illustrate the statement.
Realist, go check the figures of the troops deployed at the outset of the first Gulf war and you will find that my figures are accurate. Indeed you may find the figures for the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also illustrate the statement.
Posted by: realist, Scotland on 3:17pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Eh?[/bold] wrote:
Realist, go check the figures of the troops deployed at the outset of the first Gulf war and you will find that my figures are accurate. Indeed you may find the figures for the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also illustrate the statement. [/quote] 6 Scottish battalions in desert storm, 4,000 troops that is not two thirds of the total. I cab name them if that makes you feel better.
Eh? wrote:
Realist, go check the figures of the troops deployed at the outset of the first Gulf war and you will find that my figures are accurate. Indeed you may find the figures for the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also illustrate the statement.
6 Scottish battalions in desert storm, 4,000 troops that is not two thirds of the total. I cab name them if that makes you feel better.
Posted by: Rab Jones, Glasgow on 3:36pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Duncan B[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Rab Jones[/bold] wrote: Bring back National Service, even if its only for 6 months. Just look at the "Gentle giant killed for refusing to fight" story, and tell me we don't need it. There's no respect for humanity, life or anything these days amongst youngsters.[/quote] Yes and how many other gentle giants of immaculate character, as no doubt this young lad was, have been killed in Iraq by our armed forces? How many Iraqi families are suffering what this UK family is suffering, but at the hands of occupying forces who care so little of them that they even don't count how many are killed at their hands? This is the [italic]actual[/italic] army that are recruiting in our schools not another nice peaceful army that Wardog seems to think exists. [/quote] You're missing the point Dunc.
National service doesn't mean you get sent to war.
Probably only 15 or 20% of the kids who eventually finish the NS, would probaly join the army anyway.
The other 80% will have more respect for the human being and be a better man for it.
Duncan B wrote:
Rab Jones wrote: Bring back National Service, even if its only for 6 months. Just look at the "Gentle giant killed for refusing to fight" story, and tell me we don't need it. There's no respect for humanity, life or anything these days amongst youngsters.
Yes and how many other gentle giants of immaculate character, as no doubt this young lad was, have been killed in Iraq by our armed forces? How many Iraqi families are suffering what this UK family is suffering, but at the hands of occupying forces who care so little of them that they even don't count how many are killed at their hands? This is the actual army that are recruiting in our schools not another nice peaceful army that Wardog seems to think exists.
You're missing the point Dunc.
National service doesn't mean you get sent to war.
Probably only 15 or 20% of the kids who eventually finish the NS, would probaly join the army anyway.
The other 80% will have more respect for the human being and be a better man for it.
Posted by: Eugene, london on 3:54pm Mon 12 May 08
Sadly its an unpleasant reality that the UK needs its armed forces . While I can imagine it can be a worthwhile profession , especially , I should think in the RAF and incidentally , therefore properly promoted in schools , there are obvious dangers and sometimes unpopular roles . But this talk about ¨cannon fodder , ¨Scots being expendable or Scots being in the preponderant is juvenile drivel . Is it seriously argued that only Scottish members of the Royal Navy , Royal Marines , SBS , Parachute Regiment , SAS , English regiments , the RAF are sent at the begining of conflict , or that English members of Scottish regiments are excluded ?
Sadly its an unpleasant reality that the UK needs its armed forces . While I can imagine it can be a worthwhile profession , especially , I should think in the RAF and incidentally , therefore properly promoted in schools , there are obvious dangers and sometimes unpopular roles . But this talk about ¨cannon fodder , ¨Scots being expendable or Scots being in the preponderant is juvenile drivel . Is it seriously argued that only Scottish members of the Royal Navy , Royal Marines , SBS , Parachute Regiment , SAS , English regiments , the RAF are sent at the begining of conflict , or that English members of Scottish regiments are excluded ?
Posted by: Ethnic British, Highland on 4:07pm Mon 12 May 08
A significant number of the soldiers in "Scottish" battalions are actually Fijian, South African etc. There are even some Englishmen. Nowadays they are not all poor but noble destitute highlanders cleared off the croft and given a musket and feather bonnet to die at the behest of the wicked cowardly English. That's because Scotland is no different from any other part of the UK in recruiting difficulties. Having said that, many of those young Scots who do join the forces are actually keen to go on operations, otherwise why be a professional soldier? Therefore it is reasonable to assume that a significant number of Scottish service personnel would choose to remain with the British forces in the case of independence, and new entrants would continue to take the Queen's shilling, after all there are still steady numbers of Irishmen joining up over 80 years after indendence there.
All this begs the question of how the SNP propose to man the forces they intend to maintain after independence. Or is that one they haven't thought through yet?
A significant number of the soldiers in "Scottish" battalions are actually Fijian, South African etc. There are even some Englishmen. Nowadays they are not all poor but noble destitute highlanders cleared off the croft and given a musket and feather bonnet to die at the behest of the wicked cowardly English. That's because Scotland is no different from any other part of the UK in recruiting difficulties. Having said that, many of those young Scots who do join the forces are actually keen to go on operations, otherwise why be a professional soldier? Therefore it is reasonable to assume that a significant number of Scottish service personnel would choose to remain with the British forces in the case of independence, and new entrants would continue to take the Queen's shilling, after all there are still steady numbers of Irishmen joining up over 80 years after indendence there.
All this begs the question of how the SNP propose to man the forces they intend to maintain after independence. Or is that one they haven't thought through yet?
Posted by: Duncan B, Glasgow on 4:14pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]realist[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Eh?[/bold] wrote:
Realist, go check the figures of the troops deployed at the outset of the first Gulf war and you will find that my figures are accurate. Indeed you may find the figures for the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also illustrate the statement. [/quote] 6 Scottish battalions in desert storm, 4,000 troops that is not two thirds of the total. I cab name them if that makes you feel better.[/quote] What, all 4,000? ;)
realist wrote:
Eh? wrote:
Realist, go check the figures of the troops deployed at the outset of the first Gulf war and you will find that my figures are accurate. Indeed you may find the figures for the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also illustrate the statement.
6 Scottish battalions in desert storm, 4,000 troops that is not two thirds of the total. I cab name them if that makes you feel better.
What, all 4,000? ;)
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