Salmond: Commons can dance to Scottish jig
Alex Salmond claimed his party can force Westminster "to dance to a Scottish jig" as he set a target of winning 14 more Commons seats and holding the balance of power.
Such a result would give the party 20 seats in the Commons out of the Scottish total of 59. The SNP leader, speaking yesterday on the final day of the party's conference in Edinburgh, believes a close Commons result between Labour and the Conservatives would give smaller parties the power to decide which forms the government, and suggested the SNP could be the power-
broker instead of the LibDems.
The party leadership is
ruling out formal coalition with either of those UK
parties, but Mr Salmond hopes a hung parliament would give him leverage to gain concessions for Scotland. He said this would be one solution to recent "unreasonable behaviour" from the Labour government at Westminster, such as withholding council tax benefit and trying to block local taxation reform.
"I am charging the party to build a Scottish block of at least 20 MPs in the Westminster Parliament, ready, willing and able to defend our parliament and our people," the First Minister said.
"If we achieve that then all the Westminster noes' will suddenly become yesses'. We can make Westminster dance to a Scottish jig."
Meanwhile, Labour leader of Glasgow City Council Stephen Purcell said his party should accept independence as a "legitimate part of the debate" about Scotland's future.
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Posted by: JC on 10:42pm Sun 20 Apr 08
What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate
What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 10:47pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC
Blame Tony Blair and Donald Dour. They set up the rules to stop the SNP forming an overall majority. Yeah, liebour hoist by its own petard. You got to laugh.
JC
Blame Tony Blair and Donald Dour. They set up the rules to stop the SNP forming an overall majority. Yeah, liebour hoist by its own petard. You got to laugh.
Posted by: balding bore, Brussels on 10:51pm Sun 20 Apr 08
No,that is how it works at Westminster, where Labour with 35%of votes forms a majority govt.In Scotland the government has to find allies in other parties, including Labour, to pass any measure.
Clear now,JC?
No,that is how it works at Westminster, where Labour with 35%of votes forms a majority govt.In Scotland the government has to find allies in other parties, including Labour, to pass any measure.
Clear now,JC?
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 10:56pm Sun 20 Apr 08
[quote][bold]JC[/bold] wrote:
What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate[/quote] Not sure what your problem is here 'JC'. This isn't Alex Salmond's idea of democracy, this is the way that Westminster will operate when no party has an overall majority.
Of course if it makes you feel better to call Alex Salmond a name then I suppose that's up to you.
I for one welcome using the rules as they stand in order to get the best deal possible for Scotland.
JC wrote:
What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate
Not sure what your problem is here 'JC'. This isn't Alex Salmond's idea of democracy, this is the way that Westminster will operate when no party has an overall majority.
Of course if it makes you feel better to call Alex Salmond a name then I suppose that's up to you.
I for one welcome using the rules as they stand in order to get the best deal possible for Scotland.
Posted by: JC on 10:57pm Sun 20 Apr 08
[quote][bold]balding bore[/bold] wrote:
No,that is how it works at Westminster, where Labour with 35%of votes forms a majority govt.In Scotland the government has to find allies in other parties, including Labour, to pass any measure. Clear now,JC?[/quote] So is that really what you want for Britain? 20 nats throwing their dummy out the pram and wanting everything their way, over the will of the majority?
balding bore wrote:
No,that is how it works at Westminster, where Labour with 35%of votes forms a majority govt.In Scotland the government has to find allies in other parties, including Labour, to pass any measure. Clear now,JC?
So is that really what you want for Britain? 20 nats throwing their dummy out the pram and wanting everything their way, over the will of the majority?
Posted by: JC on 11:03pm Sun 20 Apr 08
[quote][bold]george alexander[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]JC[/bold] wrote: What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate[/quote] Not sure what your problem is here 'JC'. This isn't Alex Salmond's idea of democracy, this is the way that Westminster will operate when no party has an overall majority. Of course if it makes you feel better to call Alex Salmond a name then I suppose that's up to you. I for one welcome using the rules as they stand in order to get the best deal possible for Scotland.[/quote] Yeah well - I describe people as I find them-at least, unlike the nats, I don't make perjorative comments based on peoples gender or physical characteristics. The guy's an a*** pure and simple. As for your comments, do you imagine that is a healthy and democratic way to operate? You would not find the greens claiming to make the nats dance to their tune in the Scottish Parliament.
george alexander wrote:
JC wrote: What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate
Not sure what your problem is here 'JC'. This isn't Alex Salmond's idea of democracy, this is the way that Westminster will operate when no party has an overall majority. Of course if it makes you feel better to call Alex Salmond a name then I suppose that's up to you. I for one welcome using the rules as they stand in order to get the best deal possible for Scotland.
Yeah well - I describe people as I find them-at least, unlike the nats, I don't make perjorative comments based on peoples gender or physical characteristics. The guy's an a*** pure and simple. As for your comments, do you imagine that is a healthy and democratic way to operate? You would not find the greens claiming to make the nats dance to their tune in the Scottish Parliament.
Posted by: JC on 11:05pm Sun 20 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Wullie[/bold] wrote:
JC Blame Tony Blair and Donald Dour. They set up the rules to stop the SNP forming an overall majority. Yeah, liebour hoist by its own petard. You got to laugh.[/quote] Nightmare scenario -the nats having an overall majority of anything. I was never fond of Tony Blair, but maybe you're right- he did do some good after all.
Wullie wrote:
JC Blame Tony Blair and Donald Dour. They set up the rules to stop the SNP forming an overall majority. Yeah, liebour hoist by its own petard. You got to laugh.
Nightmare scenario -the nats having an overall majority of anything. I was never fond of Tony Blair, but maybe you're right- he did do some good after all.
Posted by: ptdoug, IOM on 11:06pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC
35% = a majority of the people????
Maths aint your strong point.
And you're **** right the SNP will play Westminster and the Unionists (that set these rules) at their own game.... and will continue to run rings round them in the defence of the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.
Something you Unionist lackeys know nothing about and care even less.
JC
35% = a majority of the people????
Maths aint your strong point.
And you're **** right the SNP will play Westminster and the Unionists (that set these rules) at their own game.... and will continue to run rings round them in the defence of the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.
Something you Unionist lackeys know nothing about and care even less.
Posted by: Harry Shanks, Rutherglen on 11:08pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC seems a pleasant and well-balanced individual doesn't he?
JC seems a pleasant and well-balanced individual doesn't he?
Posted by: ptdoug, IOM on 11:10pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC€
The Greens have already had tha Nats dancing to their tune... and as a Nat... I say good luck to them.
Fighting their corner as best they can within the current structures and rules.
JC€
The Greens have already had tha Nats dancing to their tune... and as a Nat... I say good luck to them.
Fighting their corner as best they can within the current structures and rules.
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 11:11pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC
I think you've picked up the wrong end of the dummy.
Anyway, the tories look like they'll wipe the floor with Nu Labour. Salmond is looking for as much leverage as possible both sides of the border. Quite right too. And based on current polls, the SNP could eat into Labour's heartlands.
JC
I think you've picked up the wrong end of the dummy.
Anyway, the tories look like they'll wipe the floor with Nu Labour. Salmond is looking for as much leverage as possible both sides of the border. Quite right too. And based on current polls, the SNP could eat into Labour's heartlands.
Posted by: JC on 11:13pm Sun 20 Apr 08
[quote][bold]ptdoug[/bold] wrote:
JC€ The Greens have already had tha Nats dancing to their tune... and as a Nat... I say good luck to them. Fighting their corner as best they can within the current structures and rules.[/quote] And tell us which policies the greens are for -abolition of road tolls? Building trumptown in the Highlands?
ptdoug wrote:
JC€ The Greens have already had tha Nats dancing to their tune... and as a Nat... I say good luck to them. Fighting their corner as best they can within the current structures and rules.
And tell us which policies the greens are for -abolition of road tolls? Building trumptown in the Highlands?
Posted by: JC on 11:15pm Sun 20 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Harry Shanks[/bold] wrote:
JC seems a pleasant and well-balanced individual doesn't he?[/quote] Wellyou're right- I am- It's not difficult -all you have to do is be the opposite of a nat.
Harry Shanks wrote:
JC seems a pleasant and well-balanced individual doesn't he?
Wellyou're right- I am- It's not difficult -all you have to do is be the opposite of a nat.
Posted by: JC on 11:21pm Sun 20 Apr 08
[quote][bold]ptdoug[/bold] wrote:
JC€ The Greens have already had tha Nats dancing to their tune... and as a Nat... I say good luck to them. Fighting their corner as best they can within the current structures and rules.[/quote] And tell us which policies the greens are for -abolition of road tolls? Building trumptown in the Highlands?
ptdoug wrote:
JC€ The Greens have already had tha Nats dancing to their tune... and as a Nat... I say good luck to them. Fighting their corner as best they can within the current structures and rules.
And tell us which policies the greens are for -abolition of road tolls? Building trumptown in the Highlands?
Posted by: Bruce, Ayrshire on 11:23pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC - What other moniker have you been before? You spout about a minority of nats yet you do not appreciate a minority of Labour doughballs have presided over the entire UK? (And regionally over Scotland) The great difference is; that Labour minority is shrinking - the 'nats minority' is growing.
In short language - Labour is finished - welcome the new force in Scottish politics - and if you don't like it, then tell us, what kind of democrat you really are?
JC - What other moniker have you been before? You spout about a minority of nats yet you do not appreciate a minority of Labour doughballs have presided over the entire UK? (And regionally over Scotland) The great difference is; that Labour minority is shrinking - the 'nats minority' is growing.
In short language - Labour is finished - welcome the new force in Scottish politics - and if you don't like it, then tell us, what kind of democrat you really are?
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 11:32pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC
Trumptown in the Highlands?
If you're referring to Trump's proposed golf resort, it will be in the Eastern Lowlands 8 miles North of Scotland's third city.
Do you live in Scotland?
Abusive, witless and now thick. You're really making a name for yersel'.
JC
Trumptown in the Highlands?
If you're referring to Trump's proposed golf resort, it will be in the Eastern Lowlands 8 miles North of Scotland's third city.
Do you live in Scotland?
Abusive, witless and now thick. You're really making a name for yersel'.
Posted by: sailingbuy on 11:40pm Sun 20 Apr 08
Genius move by the SNP
If Scotland wants a controlling voice they vote SNP
want to carry on being ignored vote Labour or Liberal
the rudder is a small part of the boat but can control the whole vessel
- similarly with the SNP
Genius move by the SNP
If Scotland wants a controlling voice they vote SNP
want to carry on being ignored vote Labour or Liberal
the rudder is a small part of the boat but can control the whole vessel
- similarly with the SNP
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 11:41pm Sun 20 Apr 08
JC
"Well, um, you know, something's neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so, I suppose, as Shakespeare said."
JC
"Well, um, you know, something's neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so, I suppose, as Shakespeare said."
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:42pm Sun 20 Apr 08
Andrew BOD Aberdeen[quote]Abusive, witless and now thick[/quote]They all are with few exceptions.
It's their calling card - they don't have two IQ to rub together.
Andrew BOD Aberdeen
Abusive, witless and now thick
They all are with few exceptions.
It's their calling card - they don't have two IQ to rub together.
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 12:23am Mon 21 Apr 08
You are being smug again LA.[bold]bold[/bold]
You are being smug again LA.
Posted by: doonhamer on 12:36am Mon 21 Apr 08
If as predicted, the Tories sweep south of the border, how will Scotland's interests be served by electing Labour MP's to sit in opposition and have no impact on the policies of the government?
Scotland's voters are canny enough to understand that it will be in their interests to elect as many SNP MP's as they can to act in their interest. If the SNP can hold the balance of power, it can ensure that Westminster policies and decisions are either favourable or neutral to Scottish interests.
As there is very little very little chance of any major Tory gains in Scotland and the LibDems will likely lose seats, the SNP is only way to ensure our country is not written off by the new Westminster government.
So what do you want.? Do you want to support Labour or LibDem and be ignored or do you want to support SNP and make sure that our voice is still heard?
For me it is a simple choice,.. more than 20 seats would go a long way to making sure Scotland is protected.
If as predicted, the Tories sweep south of the border, how will Scotland's interests be served by electing Labour MP's to sit in opposition and have no impact on the policies of the government?
Scotland's voters are canny enough to understand that it will be in their interests to elect as many SNP MP's as they can to act in their interest. If the SNP can hold the balance of power, it can ensure that Westminster policies and decisions are either favourable or neutral to Scottish interests.
As there is very little very little chance of any major Tory gains in Scotland and the LibDems will likely lose seats, the SNP is only way to ensure our country is not written off by the new Westminster government.
So what do you want.? Do you want to support Labour or LibDem and be ignored or do you want to support SNP and make sure that our voice is still heard?
For me it is a simple choice,.. more than 20 seats would go a long way to making sure Scotland is protected.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 12:38am Mon 21 Apr 08
"dance to a Scottish jig" - classic stuff, well done Alex.
As long as Scotland needs to participate in the British institutions
we should absolutely maximize Scotland's influence
by any means possible. Given that Scotland already
has a tiny minority position in the British Parliament of
about 9% it is only reasonable to make the British dance
to our tune for once. I can see it now with Salmond orchestrating
an eight-some reel with kilted Brown,Browne,Alexand
er,
Foulkes, Cameron,Clegg,Cairns & Bailie. I predict the number one
you tube video of all time will be the outcome here.
"dance to a Scottish jig" - classic stuff, well done Alex.
As long as Scotland needs to participate in the British institutions
we should absolutely maximize Scotland's influence
by any means possible. Given that Scotland already
has a tiny minority position in the British Parliament of
about 9% it is only reasonable to make the British dance
to our tune for once. I can see it now with Salmond orchestrating
an eight-some reel with kilted Brown,Browne,Alexand
er,
Foulkes, Cameron,Clegg,Cairns & Bailie. I predict the number one
you tube video of all time will be the outcome here.
Posted by: Neil, Aberdeenshire on 12:41am Mon 21 Apr 08
The real target has to be 30MPs, then it's all over for the union. 30/59 is a majority in Scotland.
The real target has to be 30MPs, then it's all over for the union. 30/59 is a majority in Scotland.
Posted by: Jimmy fae the West, Embra on 12:42am Mon 21 Apr 08
[quote]JC - What other moniker have you been before?[/quote]
I think you might be a tad [bold]cynicus[/bold] here Bruce? LOL
JC - What other moniker have you been before?
I think you might be a tad
cynicus here Bruce? LOL
Posted by: Dave, Away on 1:12am Mon 21 Apr 08
Actuallly, Salmond's got a point.
If one uses the Quebec model for a separatist party holding balance of power status in a minority government situation, the Parti Quebecois have been extremely successful in extorting all sorts of goodies out of both the leading Conservative and Liberal parties over many years.
Salmond is giving the people of Scotland a very good reason to vote SNP in the Westminister elections.......espe
cially since I don't see how either the Tories or Labour in the South seem to care about anything outside of Greater London......
Mind you Cameron is a Scot :-) (this is added so that someone will flame me..... :-) )
Actuallly, Salmond's got a point.
If one uses the Quebec model for a separatist party holding balance of power status in a minority government situation, the Parti Quebecois have been extremely successful in extorting all sorts of goodies out of both the leading Conservative and Liberal parties over many years.
Salmond is giving the people of Scotland a very good reason to vote SNP in the Westminister elections.......espe
cially since I don't see how either the Tories or Labour in the South seem to care about anything outside of Greater London......
Mind you Cameron is a Scot :-) (this is added so that someone will flame me..... :-) )
Posted by: David, Scotland on 1:24am Mon 21 Apr 08
I personally prefer Nicola but if Alex can win 20 seats I will be eternally grateful[bold]. All I want for Christmas is INDEPENDENCE.[/bold]
I personally prefer Nicola but if Alex can win 20 seats I will be eternally grateful
. All I want for Christmas is INDEPENDENCE. Posted by: David, Scotland on 1:25am Mon 21 Apr 08
I personally prefer Nicola but if Alex can win 20 seats I will be eternally grateful[bold]. All I want for Christmas is INDEPENDENCE.[/bold]
I personally prefer Nicola but if Alex can win 20 seats I will be eternally grateful
. All I want for Christmas is INDEPENDENCE. Posted by: Samoyed, Costa del Menie on 1:40am Mon 21 Apr 08
I can't believe I'm saying a Tory win will be very wellcome in Scotland. On the first hand nobody can be worst than the traitorous scots that now rule the labour party, on the second they will be giving us everything we want as soon they realize it means to scrap 58 or 57 opposition seats in one go.
Not a bad deal, is it? It will keep them in power in Engaland forever, is just practical, they'll go for it like a shot.
I can't believe I'm saying a Tory win will be very wellcome in Scotland. On the first hand nobody can be worst than the traitorous scots that now rule the labour party, on the second they will be giving us everything we want as soon they realize it means to scrap 58 or 57 opposition seats in one go.
Not a bad deal, is it? It will keep them in power in Engaland forever, is just practical, they'll go for it like a shot.
Posted by: Samoyed, Costa del Menie on 1:42am Mon 21 Apr 08
I can't believe I'm saying a Tory win will be very wellcome in Scotland. On the first hand nobody can be worst than the traitorous scots that now rule the labour party, on the second they will be giving us everything we want as soon they realize it means to scrap 58 or 57 opposition seats in one go.
Not a bad deal, is it? It will keep them in power in Engaland forever, is just practical, they'll go for it like a shot.
I can't believe I'm saying a Tory win will be very wellcome in Scotland. On the first hand nobody can be worst than the traitorous scots that now rule the labour party, on the second they will be giving us everything we want as soon they realize it means to scrap 58 or 57 opposition seats in one go.
Not a bad deal, is it? It will keep them in power in Engaland forever, is just practical, they'll go for it like a shot.
Posted by: doonhamer on 1:57am Mon 21 Apr 08
According to Electoral Calculus, if you took the actual popular voter acheived in May 2007 and apportioned the same vote into the Westminster calculation, the seats would be as follows.
Labour 33
SNP 14
LibDem 10
Tories 2
As SNP vote is higher and both Tory and LibDem lower in the last year, it is not inconceivable to see 20 seats. If Labour vote plummets, more than 20 is likely
Adding a mere three percent to SNP and taking 3 percent from Labour would drastically change the equation. It would result in this
Labour 22
SNP 25
LibDem 10
Tories 2
To acheive a greater result that Alex's goal would require a mere 3% swing from Labour to SNP from the actuals received in May 2007
No wonder Labour is in a panic.
According to Electoral Calculus, if you took the actual popular voter acheived in May 2007 and apportioned the same vote into the Westminster calculation, the seats would be as follows.
Labour 33
SNP 14
LibDem 10
Tories 2
As SNP vote is higher and both Tory and LibDem lower in the last year, it is not inconceivable to see 20 seats. If Labour vote plummets, more than 20 is likely
Adding a mere three percent to SNP and taking 3 percent from Labour would drastically change the equation. It would result in this
Labour 22
SNP 25
LibDem 10
Tories 2
To acheive a greater result that Alex's goal would require a mere 3% swing from Labour to SNP from the actuals received in May 2007
No wonder Labour is in a panic.
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 3:38am Mon 21 Apr 08
Roll on, the Westminster Election.
Be assured, the Scottish result will be the catalyst for the Unionist Alliance's conversion to a YES/NO Referendum.
How cynical can I get? Now I'm doubting the integrity of Westminster.
Roll on, the Westminster Election.
Be assured, the Scottish result will be the catalyst for the Unionist Alliance's conversion to a YES/NO Referendum.
How cynical can I get? Now I'm doubting the integrity of Westminster.
Posted by: KampungHighlander, Jakarta on 4:18am Mon 21 Apr 08
I think that the target of 20 seats is unambitiious if you consider the current in public opinion.
The most recent polls show that the number people who now support the independance option neck and neck with Unionist support.
The fact that the sky didn't fall in when the SNP formed the government has discredited the fear mongering of the unionist parties.
The stunning silence of all three unionist parties in the face of the treasurys campaign to withold monies that are legitmately Scotlands has further discredited them.
People are becoming acutely aware that the only political party that puts Scottish interests first is the SNP.
I think the SNP would be likely to take as many as 40 seats if things keep moving in this direction.
I think that the target of 20 seats is unambitiious if you consider the current in public opinion.
The most recent polls show that the number people who now support the independance option neck and neck with Unionist support.
The fact that the sky didn't fall in when the SNP formed the government has discredited the fear mongering of the unionist parties.
The stunning silence of all three unionist parties in the face of the treasurys campaign to withold monies that are legitmately Scotlands has further discredited them.
People are becoming acutely aware that the only political party that puts Scottish interests first is the SNP.
I think the SNP would be likely to take as many as 40 seats if things keep moving in this direction.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 4:31am Mon 21 Apr 08
I didnt see Alex Salmonds speech on tv yesterday.Needless to say, Alex Salmond is correct. Whatever it was he said.
I didnt see Alex Salmonds speech on tv yesterday.Needless to say, Alex Salmond is correct. Whatever it was he said.
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 7:54am Mon 21 Apr 08
Over the past year, the people of Scotland have seen and heard the labour party do nothing but attack and impose fines on Scotland.
Come the general election it will be hard for lab to turn around and say Scotland will be safe with them, or that they will protect Scotland in the face of a tory gov.
I don't think Alex is far off the mark looking to the SNP with 20 seats, which is only 1 in 3 of the total
Over the past year, the people of Scotland have seen and heard the labour party do nothing but attack and impose fines on Scotland.
Come the general election it will be hard for lab to turn around and say Scotland will be safe with them, or that they will protect Scotland in the face of a tory gov.
I don't think Alex is far off the mark looking to the SNP with 20 seats, which is only 1 in 3 of the total
Posted by: Hamish McKropotkin, Bannockburn on 7:55am Mon 21 Apr 08
At last a political figure who shares my contempt for bourgeois parliamentary democracy. Mr Salmond's quite right of course, our so-called democracy should be subverted and attacked whenever possible. Comrade Salmond with his cynical and opportunistic attack on democracy will be welcomed in bannockburn by the independent republic's cadres.
At last a political figure who shares my contempt for bourgeois parliamentary democracy. Mr Salmond's quite right of course, our so-called democracy should be subverted and attacked whenever possible. Comrade Salmond with his cynical and opportunistic attack on democracy will be welcomed in bannockburn by the independent republic's cadres.
Posted by: bluenose, Glasgow on 7:55am Mon 21 Apr 08
What is more likely is that all the Scottish Labour MPs elected would probably support Cameron's Tories rather than see the SNP hold any balance of power .
They despise the SNP so much they are more likely to act against the interests of Scotland.
What is more likely is that all the Scottish Labour MPs elected would probably support Cameron's Tories rather than see the SNP hold any balance of power .
They despise the SNP so much they are more likely to act against the interests of Scotland.
Posted by: iang on 8:05am Mon 21 Apr 08
you have to be careful of not seeing the bigger picture...the latest polls which showed increased support for independence also showed that the SNP would be less popular in a UK election, any conclusions need to be tempered.
you have to be careful of not seeing the bigger picture...the latest polls which showed increased support for independence also showed that the SNP would be less popular in a UK election, any conclusions need to be tempered.
Posted by: Hamish McKropotkin, Bannockburn on 8:21am Mon 21 Apr 08
[quote][bold]bluenose[/bold] wrote:
What is more likely is that all the Scottish Labour MPs elected would probably support Cameron's Tories rather than see the SNP hold any balance of power . They despise the SNP so much they are more likely to act against the interests of Scotland.[/quote] Bet you wish that was true, unfortunately you're describing the SNP here. It was them who defeated a Labour govt to usher in the Thatcher years. Lest we forget....
bluenose wrote:
What is more likely is that all the Scottish Labour MPs elected would probably support Cameron's Tories rather than see the SNP hold any balance of power . They despise the SNP so much they are more likely to act against the interests of Scotland.
Bet you wish that was true, unfortunately you're describing the SNP here. It was them who defeated a Labour govt to usher in the Thatcher years. Lest we forget....
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 8:26am Mon 21 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Hamish McKropotkin[/bold] wrote:
At last a political figure who shares my contempt for bourgeois parliamentary democracy. Mr Salmond's quite right of course, our so-called democracy should be subverted and attacked whenever possible. Comrade Salmond with his cynical and opportunistic attack on democracy will be welcomed in bannockburn by the independent republic's cadres.[/quote] Here we see the Scottish Unionist mindset again.
Anything that may help secure a better deal for Scotland must be portrayed in a negative fashion. There must be a psychological term for this kind of thinking.
As I have said before, 'Hamish' is not representative of the decent Labour and Liberal voters in Scotland. He is far more likely to be conservative with leanings to the right.
This type clearly don't like it when their own system and the rules that they themselves set are used in order to force Westminster to listen to Scotland.
Hamish McKropotkin wrote:
At last a political figure who shares my contempt for bourgeois parliamentary democracy. Mr Salmond's quite right of course, our so-called democracy should be subverted and attacked whenever possible. Comrade Salmond with his cynical and opportunistic attack on democracy will be welcomed in bannockburn by the independent republic's cadres.
Here we see the Scottish Unionist mindset again.
Anything that may help secure a better deal for Scotland must be portrayed in a negative fashion. There must be a psychological term for this kind of thinking.
As I have said before, 'Hamish' is not representative of the decent Labour and Liberal voters in Scotland. He is far more likely to be conservative with leanings to the right.
This type clearly don't like it when their own system and the rules that they themselves set are used in order to force Westminster to listen to Scotland.
Posted by: ex labour voter, glasgow on 8:30am Mon 21 Apr 08
[quote][bold]JC[/bold] wrote:
What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate[/quote] Ignorance is alive and well amongst the unionist numpties.
JC wrote:
What a total a**** - His idea of democracy is that a minority party holds sway over the majority of the electorate
Ignorance is alive and well amongst the unionist numpties.
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 8:35am Mon 21 Apr 08
'Hamish'
I think that you'll find that there have been more agreements between the Tory party and the New (tory) Labour party recently than there have ever been between the SNP and the tories.
These posts from yourself are aimed more at making you feel better than an attempt at debate. I have said before that it is no more than a 'football chant' uttered out of bitterness than anything else.
I'll leave you with a very simple question:
If the SNP can compel a party at Westminster into giving Scotland a better deal would you support it?
'Hamish'
I think that you'll find that there have been more agreements between the Tory party and the New (tory) Labour party recently than there have ever been between the SNP and the tories.
These posts from yourself are aimed more at making you feel better than an attempt at debate. I have said before that it is no more than a 'football chant' uttered out of bitterness than anything else.
I'll leave you with a very simple question:
If the SNP can compel a party at Westminster into giving Scotland a better deal would you support it?
Posted by: Carmichael, Scotland on 8:41am Mon 21 Apr 08
While I don't necessarily appreciate the rhetoric being used here I think this is an ideal situation for Scotland. Undoubtedly the Tories will be forming the next Westminster government and, underneath all their green shine, nice-guy suits, broad smiles, they are a pretty right-wing bunch. I know the types, a mixture of those who idolised Thatcher and those who were young enough to have a poster of Thatcher on their bedroom walls as teenage girls and boys. Right-wing and lovin' it. Not a party in any way tolerable to the people in Scotland.
No change from the last 11 years, perhaps, but Scotland will be probably, if I have cast the runes correctly, be voting pretty much even-stevens, in terms of the popular vote, between SNP and Labour and this will give Labour a majority of the seats in Westminster for Scotland but withgnificant increase in SNP seats. We have witnessed over the last eleven years a Labour party that has moved so far to the right that they are introducing income tax measures that the Tories would have given their right arm to have been able to get away with back in the day. Labour will still be bickering, their pretendy old-left-wingers will be tearing lumps out of the other lot, and the other lot will be in a process of blaming and naming. I do feel sorry for people in England and Wales because they only have a real choice between a right-wing Tory party or a right-wing Labour party. But, luckily in Scotland we no longer have to tolerate Labour’s mantra of ‘vote for us otherwise they’ll get in’. That old false dichotomy is in the past in Scotland
That is what Labour are really concerned about. Labour used to dictate to Scotland through a conduit of the negative voting scenario. A case in which ‘you better vote for us’ because what’s the alternative, after all – the Tories - and you don’t want them. The truth being that the Tories are a minor party in Scotland and have been for years. I think many people will now be articulating the position that many people in the SNP have been advocating for years regarding Labour’s so-called ideas of democracy. Scotland’s democracy cannot be met by Westminster. Westminster isn’t a democratic institution thus if Scotland can send as many representatives as possible who truly reflect the ideals of social democracy and an endeavour to work for people in Scotland then Scotland can, at least, cushion itself from the full effects of Westminster’s undemocratic winner takes all and to heck with the rest style of doing things. I think many in Scottish Labour will be regretting, heavily, allowing people in Scotland the chance to vote and create a democratic Parliament because, now, Scotland will not tolerate an archaic place like Westminster for much longer. Holyrood is far from perfect but, at least, Holyrood is an institution that is comparable to other Parliaments in Europe and stands on an equal footing with other democratic countries’ Parliaments. It is Westminster that is the aberration from the democratic norm.
While I don't necessarily appreciate the rhetoric being used here I think this is an ideal situation for Scotland. Undoubtedly the Tories will be forming the next Westminster government and, underneath all their green shine, nice-guy suits, broad smiles, they are a pretty right-wing bunch. I know the types, a mixture of those who idolised Thatcher and those who were young enough to have a poster of Thatcher on their bedroom walls as teenage girls and boys. Right-wing and lovin' it. Not a party in any way tolerable to the people in Scotland.
No change from the last 11 years, perhaps, but Scotland will be probably, if I have cast the runes correctly, be voting pretty much even-stevens, in terms of the popular vote, between SNP and Labour and this will give Labour a majority of the seats in Westminster for Scotland but withgnificant increase in SNP seats. We have witnessed over the last eleven years a Labour party that has moved so far to the right that they are introducing income tax measures that the Tories would have given their right arm to have been able to get away with back in the day. Labour will still be bickering, their pretendy old-left-wingers will be tearing lumps out of the other lot, and the other lot will be in a process of blaming and naming. I do feel sorry for people in England and Wales because they only have a real choice between a right-wing Tory party or a right-wing Labour party. But, luckily in Scotland we no longer have to tolerate Labour’s mantra of ‘vote for us otherwise they’ll get in’. That old false dichotomy is in the past in Scotland
That is what Labour are really concerned about. Labour used to dictate to Scotland through a conduit of the negative voting scenario. A case in which ‘you better vote for us’ because what’s the alternative, after all – the Tories - and you don’t want them. The truth being that the Tories are a minor party in Scotland and have been for years. I think many people will now be articulating the position that many people in the SNP have been advocating for years regarding Labour’s so-called ideas of democracy. Scotland’s democracy cannot be met by Westminster. Westminster isn’t a democratic institution thus if Scotland can send as many representatives as possible who truly reflect the ideals of social democracy and an endeavour to work for people in Scotland then Scotland can, at least, cushion itself from the full effects of Westminster’s undemocratic winner takes all and to heck with the rest style of doing things. I think many in Scottish Labour will be regretting, heavily, allowing people in Scotland the chance to vote and create a democratic Parliament because, now, Scotland will not tolerate an archaic place like Westminster for much longer. Holyrood is far from perfect but, at least, Holyrood is an institution that is comparable to other Parliaments in Europe and stands on an equal footing with other democratic countries’ Parliaments. It is Westminster that is the aberration from the democratic norm.
Posted by: broozy, Overseas on 8:46am Mon 21 Apr 08
14 more commons seats, aye in his dreams. We cant have the shortbread bunch representing scotland on the nationwide stage. Fair enough they can play at governing scotland which so far has borne no fruit juicy enought to eat, but i cant have a lardy treble chinned wonder having sway over things that matter to the UK..no no no...the man is embarrasing look at the size of him
14 more commons seats, aye in his dreams. We cant have the shortbread bunch representing scotland on the nationwide stage. Fair enough they can play at governing scotland which so far has borne no fruit juicy enought to eat, but i cant have a lardy treble chinned wonder having sway over things that matter to the UK..no no no...the man is embarrasing look at the size of him
Posted by: megz, glasgow on 9:20am Mon 21 Apr 08
Yes well i'm hoping my labour mp will be ejected from office and i will be doing all i can to help that happen. I think if anyone else feels the same then they should get involved with thei local party (whoever it may be) and make change happen. I know i felt really happy last year when i got involved for the first time and a really big change happened (of course i'm not claiming all the responsibility for it hehehe) it was very satisfying.
Yes well i'm hoping my labour mp will be ejected from office and i will be doing all i can to help that happen. I think if anyone else feels the same then they should get involved with thei local party (whoever it may be) and make change happen. I know i felt really happy last year when i got involved for the first time and a really big change happened (of course i'm not claiming all the responsibility for it hehehe) it was very satisfying.
Posted by: OHO, Glasgow on 9:24am Mon 21 Apr 08
If the SNP makes a list of all of the things that Westminster has blocked to enable them to operate devolution and put it to the Scottish Electorate that all they were looking for was to ensure that they are not hampered in their ambitions for Scotland - I think that would win a lot of people over. Don't forget that the SNP are also the only party who would refuse to vote on matters that do not affect Scotland - so it might well be worth the Tories thinking hard about working with the SNP in some constituencies to defeat the return of the same old labour faces.....
It would certainly make politics interesting again.
If the SNP makes a list of all of the things that Westminster has blocked to enable them to operate devolution and put it to the Scottish Electorate that all they were looking for was to ensure that they are not hampered in their ambitions for Scotland - I think that would win a lot of people over. Don't forget that the SNP are also the only party who would refuse to vote on matters that do not affect Scotland - so it might well be worth the Tories thinking hard about working with the SNP in some constituencies to defeat the return of the same old labour faces.....
It would certainly make politics interesting again.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:31am Mon 21 Apr 08
Boozy Overhere[quote]governing scotland is way, way beyond my skills. I have nothing but admiration for the a minority government that works on concensus[/quote]
Boozy Overhere
governing scotland is way, way beyond my skills. I have nothing but admiration for the a minority government that works on concensus
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:34am Mon 21 Apr 08
Hamish Krapology[quote]It was them who defeated a Labour govt to usher in the Thatcher years.[/quote] And the current Labour party are doing all they can to "usher in" the next Tory decade.
Hamish Krapology
It was them who defeated a Labour govt to usher in the Thatcher years.
And the current Labour party are doing all they can to "usher in" the next Tory decade.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:37am Mon 21 Apr 08
Graham of Gargle[quote]You are being smug again.[/quote] And you are being dumb again. If you've nothing to say, don't say it.
Graham of Gargle
You are being smug again.
And you are being dumb again. If you've nothing to say, don't say it.
Posted by: Hamish McKropotkin, Bannockburn on 9:40am Mon 21 Apr 08
[quote][bold]george alexander[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Hamish McKropotkin[/bold] wrote: At last a political figure who shares my contempt for bourgeois parliamentary democracy. Mr Salmond's quite right of course, our so-called democracy should be subverted and attacked whenever possible. Comrade Salmond with his cynical and opportunistic attack on democracy will be welcomed in bannockburn by the independent republic's cadres.[/quote] Here we see the Scottish Unionist mindset again. Anything that may help secure a better deal for Scotland must be portrayed in a negative fashion. There must be a psychological term for this kind of thinking. As I have said before, 'Hamish' is not representative of the decent Labour and Liberal voters in Scotland. He is far more likely to be conservative with leanings to the right. This type clearly don't like it when their own system and the rules that they themselves set are used in order to force Westminster to listen to Scotland.[/quote] Georgy-boy,
Actually the idea of a 'unionist' is a nationalist construct. The only unions I care about are trades unions. You make the typical extremist mistake when you imagine everyone is as obsessed as you are. I don't think they are, I certainly don't see Scotland as cheated, downtrodden or ruled by an evil empire. You and your friends do, it is a view that most Scots would reject. They will at the ballot box. Free by 73/83/93/03 anyone?
george alexander wrote:
Hamish McKropotkin wrote: At last a political figure who shares my contempt for bourgeois parliamentary democracy. Mr Salmond's quite right of course, our so-called democracy should be subverted and attacked whenever possible. Comrade Salmond with his cynical and opportunistic attack on democracy will be welcomed in bannockburn by the independent republic's cadres.
Here we see the Scottish Unionist mindset again. Anything that may help secure a better deal for Scotland must be portrayed in a negative fashion. There must be a psychological term for this kind of thinking. As I have said before, 'Hamish' is not representative of the decent Labour and Liberal voters in Scotland. He is far more likely to be conservative with leanings to the right. This type clearly don't like it when their own system and the rules that they themselves set are used in order to force Westminster to listen to Scotland.
Georgy-boy,
Actually the idea of a 'unionist' is a nationalist construct. The only unions I care about are trades unions. You make the typical extremist mistake when you imagine everyone is as obsessed as you are. I don't think they are, I certainly don't see Scotland as cheated, downtrodden or ruled by an evil empire. You and your friends do, it is a view that most Scots would reject. They will at the ballot box. Free by 73/83/93/03 anyone?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:44am Mon 21 Apr 08
Carmichael Scotland[quote]Labour used to dictate to Scotland through a conduit of the negative voting scenario. A case in which ‘you better vote for us’ because what’s the alternative, after all – the Tories - and you don’t want them.[/quote] One of the best posts I've read on the [italic]Herald[/italic] for some time. The unrepresentative slop that is Westminster has been accepted as the home of reason and democarcy for far too long. It does not even serve Newcastle or Swansea well, for that matter, let alone Scotland.
Carmichael Scotland
Labour used to dictate to Scotland through a conduit of the negative voting scenario. A case in which ‘you better vote for us’ because what’s the alternative, after all – the Tories - and you don’t want them.
One of the best posts I've read on the
Herald for some time. The unrepresentative slop that is Westminster has been accepted as the home of reason and democarcy for far too long. It does not even serve Newcastle or Swansea well, for that matter, let alone Scotland.
Posted by: interstellarmince, outer-space on 9:48am Mon 21 Apr 08
Westminster? Westminster is run and controlled by the Establishment, a.k.a, the Babylonian Brotherhood. The old broken-record mantras echo from the chambers of deception, ‘Democracy’ and ‘Jobs’. There is no democracy and freedom is an illusion. The ‘jobs’ are created and deleted on a whim by musical-chair placemen inhabiting the boardrooms of the very shady and questionable private corporations. As for the ‘free-market-economy
’ big stick? The private banking scam continues enslaving peoples and nations in the artificially created debt prison from the ‘created-out-of-noth
ing’ money. The division of society is then completed by the award of rampant overpaid jobs to key people ensuring the scam continues. All this and they pollute land, sea and air whilst manufacturing genocide in distant lands. Humanity is sleep-walking through these times and needs to wake up. At least we, here in Scotland can make a start on the road to recovery and bid farewell to the misdirection and rid ourselves of the heinous shackles of Westminster.
Westminster? Westminster is run and controlled by the Establishment, a.k.a, the Babylonian Brotherhood. The old broken-record mantras echo from the chambers of deception, ‘Democracy’ and ‘Jobs’. There is no democracy and freedom is an illusion. The ‘jobs’ are created and deleted on a whim by musical-chair placemen inhabiting the boardrooms of the very shady and questionable private corporations. As for the ‘free-market-economy
’ big stick? The private banking scam continues enslaving peoples and nations in the artificially created debt prison from the ‘created-out-of-noth
ing’ money. The division of society is then completed by the award of rampant overpaid jobs to key people ensuring the scam continues. All this and they pollute land, sea and air whilst manufacturing genocide in distant lands. Humanity is sleep-walking through these times and needs to wake up. At least we, here in Scotland can make a start on the road to recovery and bid farewell to the misdirection and rid ourselves of the heinous shackles of Westminster.
Posted by: subrosa on 9:52am Mon 21 Apr 08
Has anyone read the article in the Daily Mail on Saturday - 'The New Racism' by one James Grant. (I can't find anything on google about this journalist). Unfortunately Scottish content of the Mail is not online.
The article takes me back to the 70s with it's vindictiveness, volatile language and lies. Danger is that the Mail is read by far more readers than the Herald and Scotsman.
Sorry I don't have the technical ability to copy it to here as cut and paste doesn't work on the PDF I was sent.
Has anyone read the article in the Daily Mail on Saturday - 'The New Racism' by one James Grant. (I can't find anything on google about this journalist). Unfortunately Scottish content of the Mail is not online.
The article takes me back to the 70s with it's vindictiveness, volatile language and lies. Danger is that the Mail is read by far more readers than the Herald and Scotsman.
Sorry I don't have the technical ability to copy it to here as cut and paste doesn't work on the PDF I was sent.
Posted by: Anne, save the last dance on 9:54am Mon 21 Apr 08
-- That's our footstomping Daddy!
-- That's our footstomping Daddy!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:54am Mon 21 Apr 08
Hamish Krapology[quote]Alexander - You make the typical extremist mistake[/quote] As the man who advocates using a baseball bat to win an argument I don't think you are in a position to call anybody an extremist.
Hamish Krapology
Alexander - You make the typical extremist mistake
As the man who advocates using a baseball bat to win an argument I don't think you are in a position to call anybody an extremist.
Posted by: Hamish McKropotkin, Bannockburn on 9:58am Mon 21 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Carmichael[/bold] wrote:
While I don't necessarily appreciate the rhetoric being used here I think this is an ideal situation for Scotland. Undoubtedly the Tories will be forming the next Westminster government and, underneath all their green shine, nice-guy suits, broad smiles, they are a pretty right-wing bunch. I know the types, a mixture of those who idolised Thatcher and those who were young enough to have a poster of Thatcher on their bedroom walls as teenage girls and boys. Right-wing and lovin' it. Not a party in any way tolerable to the people in Scotland. No change from the last 11 years, perhaps, but Scotland will be probably, if I have cast the runes correctly, be voting pretty much even-stevens, in terms of the popular vote, between SNP and Labour and this will give Labour a majority of the seats in Westminster for Scotland but withgnificant increase in SNP seats. We have witnessed over the last eleven years a Labour party that has moved so far to the right that they are introducing income tax measures that the Tories would have given their right arm to have been able to get away with back in the day. Labour will still be bickering, their pretendy old-left-wingers will be tearing lumps out of the other lot, and the other lot will be in a process of blaming and naming. I do feel sorry for people in England and Wales because they only have a real choice between a right-wing Tory party or a right-wing Labour party. But, luckily in Scotland we no longer have to tolerate Labour’s mantra of ‘vote for us otherwise they’ll get in’. That old false dichotomy is in the past in Scotland That is what Labour are really concerned about. Labour used to dictate to Scotland through a conduit of the negative voting scenario. A case in which ‘you better vote for us’ because what’s the alternative, after all – the Tories - and you don’t want them. The truth being that the Tories are a minor party in Scotland and have been for years. I think many people will now be articulating the position that many people in the SNP have been advocating for years regarding Labour’s so-called ideas of democracy. Scotland’s democracy cannot be met by Westminster. Westminster isn’t a democratic institution thus if Scotland can send as many representatives as possible who truly reflect the ideals of social democracy and an endeavour to work for people in Scotland then Scotland can, at least, cushion itself from the full effects of Westminster’s undemocratic winner takes all and to heck with the rest style of doing things. I think many in Scottish Labour will be regretting, heavily, allowing people in Scotland the chance to vote and create a democratic Parliament because, now, Scotland will not tolerate an archaic place like Westminster for much longer. Holyrood is far from perfect but, at least, Holyrood is an institution that is comparable to other Parliaments in Europe and stands on an equal footing with other democratic countries’ Parliaments. It is Westminster that is the aberration from the democratic norm.[/quote] Carmichael,
Did you have to endure the Thatcher years? I can't believe you did because if you had you wouldn't have written such a ludicrously glib and cynical post. Hell mend all you self-styled leftie nationalists. Doing back flips to support the SNP jobs and services cuts now we've got them trying to rationalise supporting the next Tory government. Pathetic.
Carmichael wrote:
While I don't necessarily appreciate the rhetoric being used here I think this is an ideal situation for Scotland. Undoubtedly the Tories will be forming the next Westminster government and, underneath all their green shine, nice-guy suits, broad smiles, they are a pretty right-wing bunch. I know the types, a mixture of those who idolised Thatcher and those who were young enough to have a poster of Thatcher on their bedroom walls as teenage girls and boys. Right-wing and lovin' it. Not a party in
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