Pupils showing a lack of interest in computer studies
HANNAH GIVEN
University students are being used to help rekindle interest in computing science courses in Scottish schools amid concerns for the future of the subject.
Academics are concerned at the fall in enrolments for such university courses, which has resulted in a lack of qualified computer experts at a time when ministers want Scotland to be at the forefront of a knowledge economy.
Ucas figures for 2007 show that while applications for computer studies courses at university level were up by 0.1%, between 2001 and 2004 the number of applications had dropped from 29,014 to 16,801.
The difficulty for teachers and local authorities stems from the difference between computing studies and ICT, the latter being more common in schools. Computing studies deals with technical aspects of computers and technology, while ICT teaches pupils the user side of technology.
Chris Johnson, professor of computing science at Glasgow University, believes the fall in students taking computer studies can be attributed to the rise of the internet and the dot.com industries in the 1990s - the resulting crash in 2001 cut jobs in the global computer industry by half.
He said: "Ten years ago we were a real boom subject. People were coming to us because of the dot.com bubble, convinced they could make a career out of computing. Now we're really trying to drum up interest in the subject."
One way in which this is happening is through a option course at Glasgow University. The course, Computing Science in the Classroom (CSI), is run under the aegis of the Undergraduate Ambassadors Scheme where final year students go to local schools and team up with a particular teacher to support lessons.
They have to deliver at least one of the CSI workshops during their visits and to design a new workshop and deliver it. Philip Gray, senior lecturer at Glasgow University, said the initial feedback from teachers, students and pupils on their visits has been "excellent".
The Scottish Government said it has no plans to cut back on teaching computing in schools. Next week it will publish the teaching guidance on technologies - including computing - which are part of Curriculum for Excellence, the government's new approach to teaching and learning.
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Posted by: Kiera Hardie on 12:54am Sat 12 Apr 08
[quote] while ICT teaches pupils the user side of technology.[/quote] So kids at school get "taught" how to use Word and the internet? That isn't an academic subject. It isn't even a vocational subject. It a computer system is any good you don't need a teacher to show you how to use it.
How many kids need to have a teacher do a class in operating a Wii? If kids can't cope with this stuff unaided then we're in trouble.
It's like the way they taught Latin in the 70s - [italic]ecce romani[/italic] was the name of the accursed coursebook - you were taught how to read but not how to write the language. A stupid approach which led to the ending of Classics in Scots schools.
I think the same is going to happen with computing if they don't teach kids properly. Other countries, like India and China and Korea, take a different view about these things.
while ICT teaches pupils the user side of technology.
So kids at school get "taught" how to use Word and the internet? That isn't an academic subject. It isn't even a vocational subject. It a computer system is any good you don't need a teacher to show you how to use it.
How many kids need to have a teacher do a class in operating a Wii? If kids can't cope with this stuff unaided then we're in trouble.
It's like the way they taught Latin in the 70s -
ecce romani was the name of the accursed coursebook - you were taught how to read but not how to write the language. A stupid approach which led to the ending of Classics in Scots schools.
I think the same is going to happen with computing if they don't teach kids properly. Other countries, like India and China and Korea, take a different view about these things.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 10:43am Sat 12 Apr 08
All part of the dumbing down process, don't educate the children how to think but just how to do. Education is a dirty and expensive word to the powers that be. Training is so much cheaper.
Unlike you Kiera I never had a classical education,l I didn't even have a basic education but I do passionately believe that we should return to those values. Not just in the classics but also in maths, science and most of all English. I wince when I hear some of the people talking on the radio. Talk about mangling the English language, if you took out all the err, ums and unecessary ands, they might start to make sense and I'd save on buying new radios.
Sadly we no longer value education for it's own sake but the third world does. The greatest gift that Alex Salmond could give Scotland is a return to the old classical values of Scottish education, along with maths, science and engineering.
All part of the dumbing down process, don't educate the children how to think but just how to do. Education is a dirty and expensive word to the powers that be. Training is so much cheaper.
Unlike you Kiera I never had a classical education,l I didn't even have a basic education but I do passionately believe that we should return to those values. Not just in the classics but also in maths, science and most of all English. I wince when I hear some of the people talking on the radio. Talk about mangling the English language, if you took out all the err, ums and unecessary ands, they might start to make sense and I'd save on buying new radios.
Sadly we no longer value education for it's own sake but the third world does. The greatest gift that Alex Salmond could give Scotland is a return to the old classical values of Scottish education, along with maths, science and engineering.
Posted by: toom, Edinburgh on 11:09am Sat 12 Apr 08
It's further evidence that we can only fill skills gaps if we target government funding for higher education fees and grants into these areas and charge reasonable real money fees in other subject areas. It was proposed that foreign graduates of Scottish universities be granted work visas to stay for a while after graduation. That is because foreign students pay very high fees and the majority study subjects which have some commercial use and payback.
It's further evidence that we can only fill skills gaps if we target government funding for higher education fees and grants into these areas and charge reasonable real money fees in other subject areas. It was proposed that foreign graduates of Scottish universities be granted work visas to stay for a while after graduation. That is because foreign students pay very high fees and the majority study subjects which have some commercial use and payback.
Posted by: PaulM, Glasgow on 11:39am Sat 12 Apr 08
I had a conversation with the ICT teacher in our school about when the children where going to learn even basic programming and I got a look as if I had 3 heads. The problem is that non of the ICT teachers had ever done it and they can't teach it.
ICT is a waste of time and effort. It teaches them nothing they couldn't pick up in 5 mins from a "dummies guide to" book.
I had a conversation with the ICT teacher in our school about when the children where going to learn even basic programming and I got a look as if I had 3 heads. The problem is that non of the ICT teachers had ever done it and they can't teach it.
ICT is a waste of time and effort. It teaches them nothing they couldn't pick up in 5 mins from a "dummies guide to" book.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 12:18pm Sat 12 Apr 08
That is definitely a major part of the problem Paul. Few teachers today seem to be able to instill the children with enthusiasm for any subject. The children are learning by rote because they are being taught by rote!
That is definitely a major part of the problem Paul. Few teachers today seem to be able to instill the children with enthusiasm for any subject. The children are learning by rote because they are being taught by rote!
Posted by: sam, greenock on 3:22pm Sat 12 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Kiera Hardie[/bold] wrote:
[quote] while ICT teaches pupils the user side of technology.[/quote] So kids at school get "taught" how to use Word and the internet? That isn't an academic subject. It isn't even a vocational subject. It a computer system is any good you don't need a teacher to show you how to use it. How many kids need to have a teacher do a class in operating a Wii? If kids can't cope with this stuff unaided then we're in trouble. It's like the way they taught Latin in the 70s - [italic]ecce romani[/italic] was the name of the accursed coursebook - you were taught how to read but not how to write the language. A stupid approach which led to the ending of Classics in Scots schools. I think the same is going to happen with computing if they don't teach kids properly. Other countries, like India and China and Korea, take a different view about these things. [/quote] Jings Kiera,
A blast from the past you brought me, [bold]ecce romani[/bold] indeed. Remember it well, with Portia et al(ah cannae mind the rest) and the Latin teacher Mrs Kerr................
......at oor school anyway.
Kiera Hardie wrote:
while ICT teaches pupils the user side of technology.
So kids at school get "taught" how to use Word and the internet? That isn't an academic subject. It isn't even a vocational subject. It a computer system is any good you don't need a teacher to show you how to use it. How many kids need to have a teacher do a class in operating a Wii? If kids can't cope with this stuff unaided then we're in trouble. It's like the way they taught Latin in the 70s - ecce romani was the name of the accursed coursebook - you were taught how to read but not how to write the language. A stupid approach which led to the ending of Classics in Scots schools. I think the same is going to happen with computing if they don't teach kids properly. Other countries, like India and China and Korea, take a different view about these things.
Jings Kiera,
A blast from the past you brought me,
ecce romani indeed. Remember it well, with Portia et al(ah cannae mind the rest) and the Latin teacher Mrs Kerr................
......at oor school anyway.
Posted by: George Laird, Glasgow on 3:24pm Sat 12 Apr 08
Dear All
I am shocked that poor old Chris Johnson has to drum up support to attract students.
My friend graduated from Glasgow University narrowly missing a first in computing and got a great job in London, walking into £40k a year starting.
If Johnson takes the time he should be asking the question how do I make computing interesting to children.
Why doesn't he use the Computing Labs to set up a one night a week online gaming community for school children. He could then do the sales pitch, why Glasgow, why computing.
As someone who taught with great success at university under difficult circumstances, I always pitched the lesson at the level of the class and took them with me.
Perhaps Johnson's problem is that he wants to go the start of the party with the big fanfare but doesn't want to hang around at the end to tidy up.
You can't teach people well if you cannot relate to them on their level and you cannot make them interested if you not interested in them.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
Dear All
I am shocked that poor old Chris Johnson has to drum up support to attract students.
My friend graduated from Glasgow University narrowly missing a first in computing and got a great job in London, walking into £40k a year starting.
If Johnson takes the time he should be asking the question how do I make computing interesting to children.
Why doesn't he use the Computing Labs to set up a one night a week online gaming community for school children. He could then do the sales pitch, why Glasgow, why computing.
As someone who taught with great success at university under difficult circumstances, I always pitched the lesson at the level of the class and took them with me.
Perhaps Johnson's problem is that he wants to go the start of the party with the big fanfare but doesn't want to hang around at the end to tidy up.
You can't teach people well if you cannot relate to them on their level and you cannot make them interested if you not interested in them.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
Posted by: wee folding bike on 4:08pm Sat 12 Apr 08
McSomeone,
Pupils have to learn the right answer for the test. The problem lies outwith the class room.
McSomeone,
Pupils have to learn the right answer for the test. The problem lies outwith the class room.
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 5:45pm Sat 12 Apr 08
I want to sit higher ICT it sounds as if they are giving away the qualification to anyone able to type and spell check their dross. Would higher ICT make me employable by a games company as a games designer I doubt it. Could I walk straight into a high paid job in computing no. Is the goverment doing its job.
george read your message before posting your last sentence makes no sense without an are as in you are not I can barely spell myself but I can read and I agree with most of what you say but why night classes most folk who want to will be capable of playing games online at home thus making your idea less attractive.
In summation ICT is not worth the paper its printed on though it should at least teach how to print the useless qualification
I want to sit higher ICT it sounds as if they are giving away the qualification to anyone able to type and spell check their dross. Would higher ICT make me employable by a games company as a games designer I doubt it. Could I walk straight into a high paid job in computing no. Is the goverment doing its job.
george read your message before posting your last sentence makes no sense without an are as in you are not I can barely spell myself but I can read and I agree with most of what you say but why night classes most folk who want to will be capable of playing games online at home thus making your idea less attractive.
In summation ICT is not worth the paper its printed on though it should at least teach how to print the useless qualification
Posted by: EH10, Edinburgh on 7:59pm Sat 12 Apr 08
Lay off ICT.
I am doing the Higher in May and I think they are a good team and Brewster is a great manager.
Lay off ICT.
I am doing the Higher in May and I think they are a good team and Brewster is a great manager.
Posted by: cj_65, Glasgow on 9:31am Mon 14 Apr 08
[quote][bold]George Laird[/bold] wrote:
Dear All
I am shocked that poor old Chris Johnson has to drum up support to attract students.
My friend graduated from Glasgow University narrowly missing a first in computing and got a great job in London, walking into £40k a year starting.
If Johnson takes the time he should be asking the question how do I make computing interesting to children.
Why doesn't he use the Computing Labs to set up a one night a week online gaming community for school children. He could then do the sales pitch, why Glasgow, why computing.
As someone who taught with great success at university under difficult circumstances, I always pitched the lesson at the level of the class and took them with me.
Perhaps Johnson's problem is that he wants to go the start of the party with the big fanfare but doesn't want to hang around at the end to tidy up.
You can't teach people well if you cannot relate to them on their level and you cannot make them interested if you not interested in them.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University[/quote] Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm always there at the end to clear up the party 8)
George Laird wrote:
Dear All
I am shocked that poor old Chris Johnson has to drum up support to attract students.
My friend graduated from Glasgow University narrowly missing a first in computing and got a great job in London, walking into £40k a year starting.
If Johnson takes the time he should be asking the question how do I make computing interesting to children.
Why doesn't he use the Computing Labs to set up a one night a week online gaming community for school children. He could then do the sales pitch, why Glasgow, why computing.
As someone who taught with great success at university under difficult circumstances, I always pitched the lesson at the level of the class and took them with me.
Perhaps Johnson's problem is that he wants to go the start of the party with the big fanfare but doesn't want to hang around at the end to tidy up.
You can't teach people well if you cannot relate to them on their level and you cannot make them interested if you not interested in them.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm always there at the end to clear up the party 8)
Posted by: George Laird, Glasgow on 6:17pm Mon 14 Apr 08
Dear Mr. Johnson
Thank you for your reply.
As to your comment;
"Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm always there at the end to clear up the party ".
It is good to know that you are able to keep busy if the fall in computing continues. 8)
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
Dear Mr. Johnson
Thank you for your reply.
As to your comment;
"Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm always there at the end to clear up the party ".
It is good to know that you are able to keep busy if the fall in computing continues. 8)
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
Posted by: dm, Linlithgow on 9:12pm Tue 15 Apr 08
George Laird - you seem to have hijacked a debate that was reasonably relevant to the point of the article with your own personal agenda. Why don't you try removing that sack of potatoes off your shoulder and take your "Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University" somewhere more appropriate than this forum?
George Laird - you seem to have hijacked a debate that was reasonably relevant to the point of the article with your own personal agenda. Why don't you try removing that sack of potatoes off your shoulder and take your "Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University" somewhere more appropriate than this forum?
Posted by: Kyreal, Glasgow on 1:17pm Thu 17 Apr 08
It's at this point, Mr Laird, that I would like to stick up for Mr Johnson.
If anything over the last semester he has largely increased my intrest in computing as a subject.
If there were more lecturers like Mr Johnson and less people like Mr Laird to oppose his efforts maybe there wouldn't be such a decrease in intrest in the computing profession.
Yours Sincerely,
A motivated computer science student
It's at this point, Mr Laird, that I would like to stick up for Mr Johnson.
If anything over the last semester he has largely increased my intrest in computing as a subject.
If there were more lecturers like Mr Johnson and less people like Mr Laird to oppose his efforts maybe there wouldn't be such a decrease in intrest in the computing profession.
Yours Sincerely,
A motivated computer science student
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