Jails crisis will force U-turn over early releases
EXCLUSIVE:
The law to end the controversial automatic early release of prisoners faces indefinite delay because of jail over-crowding after First Minister Alex Salmond yesterday described Scotland's prison system as being in "crisis".
The problem of overcrowding was behind a Parliament vote last night which will see some longer-term inmates being given home-detention curfews.
Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill also announced he is preparing to bring forward more measures to ease the pressure on prisons in the next few months.
He faces growing opposition pressure over such prisoner release schemes, with Tory Bill Aitken saying "the SNP Government is hellbent on emptying Scotland's jails regardless of the consequences".
Automatic early release was introduced 15 years ago, meaning anyone with a sentence of up to four years is freed halfway through the stated term, with no conditions placed on them.
The new law means they would have to show they deserve early release and there would be supervision orders placed on them.
The Custodial Sentences and Weapons Act was the last to be passed by the Labour/LibDem administration, having faced sustained pressure over the issue from Tory leader Annabel Goldie.
But there was never a budget for the extra prison capacity required if prisoners are not to be released early, estimated at between 700 and 1100 places.
Nor was it clear how the social work service was to provide the extra supervision required outside prison, or the additional requirement to assess all prisoners ahead of release.
Mr Salmond told MSPs yesterday the policy is now being reviewed by the prison commission headed by former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish, which is due to report in June. Ministers still want to implement the law, but they have strong reservations about whether and how fast it can be achieved.
A spokesman explained: "Ministers are committed to end the arbitrary and unconditional early release of the current system, but they have been clear that they have a duty to ensure any change does not have an unforeseen and detrimental impact on the wider criminal justice system."
Mr MacAskill is considering options for further measures to reduce overcrowding pressures, and it is "very likely" he will have to announce them to parliament "in the coming months".
That could include extension of the Home Detention Curfew or more use of open prisons, which have been a source of controversy since Robert Foye absconded from one and raped a schoolgirl.
Yesterday's vote to extend the curfew scheme to include prisoners serving sentences of more than four years was passed by 66 to 58 votes after two defeats. The Justice Committee had rejected the proposal on the casting vote of Tory convener Bill Aitken.
It was defeated again two weeks ago in full parliament, when four LibDem MSPs, who had been expected to support
the SNP, accidentally voted the wrong way and, in two cases, turned up too late to vote.
Ministers brought the issue back to parliament, facing criticism for refusing to accept the previous vote, having strongly criticised the previous administration when, in 2001, they similarly repeated a vote on fisheries they had lost because Labour MPs had left the parliament early to attend their conference.
Mr MacAskill assured MSPs that prisoners could not be released under the scheme unless the Parole Board has already recommended their release. "This will not change," he added.
"The SNP want to send virtually every prisoner home under their early, early release scheme and the consequences of this dangerous policy could be very serious," Mr Aitken said.
The public would be furious that "the SNP and the LibDems have put criminals first and them second. The public expects their government to protect them, not to become the criminal's best friend".
He said the policy was dangerous and alleged the streets are not safe under an SNP government. The prison population is at record levels, above 8000 when design capacity is 6626. As of yesterday 379 of these prisoners are out on home detention curfew.
Mr Salmond also faced embarrassment during First Minister's Questions over a Scottish Prison Service
contract to transport young offenders between secure units, which was recently awarded to the private
company Reliance Task Management.
LibDem leader Nicol Stephen reminded the First Minister what his ministers
had been saying about Reliance and private-sector outsourcing when in opposition.
In a further line of attack, Ms Goldie asked about preparations if there is storm damage or flooding in a prison, and said that if there is over-crowding those contingency plans should be implemented.
"The SNP Government merely want to empty our jails, regardless of public safety," she said. "When will the SNP learn that you do not cut crime by cutting the prison population - you cut the prison population by cutting crime."
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Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 12:06am Fri 28 Mar 08
[bold]Build more jails[/bold] - how many times do I have to say this!!!!
Build more jails - how many times do I have to say this!!!!
Posted by: bob mckay, glasgow on 12:17am Fri 28 Mar 08
Build more jails. Mmm, thatll work!! Its worked well up to now eh?
Build more jails. Mmm, thatll work!! Its worked well up to now eh?
Posted by: subrosa on 12:42am Fri 28 Mar 08
We've the biggest jail population in Europe I heard. Why?
We've the biggest jail population in Europe I heard. Why?
Posted by: Steve A, Glasgow on 12:46am Fri 28 Mar 08
Salmond admits system failure!
Alexander admits breaking the law!
Douglas if you were a party leader which headline do you think you would prefer to be associated with?No brain er really! isn't it?
Salmond admits system failure!
Alexander admits breaking the law!
Douglas if you were a party leader which headline do you think you would prefer to be associated with?No brain er really! isn't it?
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 12:52am Fri 28 Mar 08
It is a sad enditement on our judicial process that even now while we moan about overcrowding in our jails that there are folk languishing in prison whose only offence was to smoke cannabis instead of ciggarettes. Seems sad when we let folk out of open prisons to rape and steal only because we lock up stoners. Lets be a christian nation and forgive them for choosing a different lifestyle to us drunk abusive wife beaters. After all we forgive the peados cause they are priests.
It is a sad enditement on our judicial process that even now while we moan about overcrowding in our jails that there are folk languishing in prison whose only offence was to smoke cannabis instead of ciggarettes. Seems sad when we let folk out of open prisons to rape and steal only because we lock up stoners. Lets be a christian nation and forgive them for choosing a different lifestyle to us drunk abusive wife beaters. After all we forgive the peados cause they are priests.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 1:32am Fri 28 Mar 08
Let us hope we can keep Wullie, Aberdeen oot the jile. Watch what you say, Wullie. Criminal defamation is an imprisonable offence. Peterheid's ful tae the gunwhales.
Let us hope we can keep Wullie, Aberdeen oot the jile. Watch what you say, Wullie. Criminal defamation is an imprisonable offence. Peterheid's ful tae the gunwhales.
Posted by: sociowoman, Dundee on 3:59am Fri 28 Mar 08
Build more gaols and less hospitals eh?
Build more gaols and less hospitals eh?
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 4:36am Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]sociowoman[/bold] wrote:
Build more gaols and less hospitals eh? [/quote] Sentencing policy is not and never has been a deterrent to criminal behaviour.
Prison does not reform people but it does keep them away from society for a defined period.
Sentencing policy is being dictated by the amount of space we have available to lock up career criminals and violent sociopaths and that is fundamentally wrong and as such the criminal justice system is a failure.
Get those who are in jail and who should not be there i.e. the junkies and the educationally challenged, out and treat them in the community where they should be.
Society needs to have a method of protecting itself from evil and prison is the answer if we cannot deport or hang them. If there is not enough space the answer is to create more space not to reduce the length of sentences. The fact there is a larger core of criminals is a reflection of our society not an indication that “prisons don’t work”.
sociowoman wrote:
Build more gaols and less hospitals eh?
Sentencing policy is not and never has been a deterrent to criminal behaviour.
Prison does not reform people but it does keep them away from society for a defined period.
Sentencing policy is being dictated by the amount of space we have available to lock up career criminals and violent sociopaths and that is fundamentally wrong and as such the criminal justice system is a failure.
Get those who are in jail and who should not be there i.e. the junkies and the educationally challenged, out and treat them in the community where they should be.
Society needs to have a method of protecting itself from evil and prison is the answer if we cannot deport or hang them. If there is not enough space the answer is to create more space not to reduce the length of sentences. The fact there is a larger core of criminals is a reflection of our society not an indication that “prisons don’t work”.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 5:38am Fri 28 Mar 08
there are some who should not be in jail, such as those with psychiatric problems, who need a separate entity and treatment.
Then there are those who should be in jail, such as Team Bendy.
there are some who should not be in jail, such as those with psychiatric problems, who need a separate entity and treatment.
Then there are those who should be in jail, such as Team Bendy.
Posted by: Allan, Londonistan on 9:14am Fri 28 Mar 08
Bring back hanging. Overcrowding problems solved. Public money saved. One wonders why nobody has thought of it already.
Bring back hanging. Overcrowding problems solved. Public money saved. One wonders why nobody has thought of it already.
Posted by: pete, Bearsden on 9:37am Fri 28 Mar 08
Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce.
Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce.
Posted by: Carnwarth, Carnwarth on 9:43am Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Politically-incorrect Man[/bold] wrote:
[bold]Build more jails[/bold] - how many times do I have to say this!!!![/quote] You can keep saying it if you must but look at America where prisons are big business - it doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, all it does is use up resources.
So why keep saying "build more jails; make the situation worse; waste money now!"?
Politically-incorrect Man wrote:
Build more jails - how many times do I have to say this!!!!
You can keep saying it if you must but look at America where prisons are big business - it doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, all it does is use up resources.
So why keep saying "build more jails; make the situation worse; waste money now!"?
Posted by: Carnwarth on 9:46am Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]pete[/bold] wrote:
Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce. [/quote] What is it about people from Bearsden, you are all so right-wing!
America has lots and lots of jails and conditions are very harsh and it is a violence-soaked society.
Your proposal doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, it may get you all excited to imagine dishing out punishment to firm-bodies youths in your control but let's not build a penal policy on your fantasy life.
pete wrote:
Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce.
What is it about people from Bearsden, you are all so right-wing!
America has lots and lots of jails and conditions are very harsh and it is a violence-soaked society.
Your proposal doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, it may get you all excited to imagine dishing out punishment to firm-bodies youths in your control but let's not build a penal policy on your fantasy life.
Posted by: Gaavster, Ayr on 10:06am Fri 28 Mar 08
Quite clearly the problem here lies in 50 plus years of Labour controlled government, both national and local, in Scotland.
Time to give the present encumbents in Holyrood a chance to rectify the gross mismanagement that has brought about the current situation
Quite clearly the problem here lies in 50 plus years of Labour controlled government, both national and local, in Scotland.
Time to give the present encumbents in Holyrood a chance to rectify the gross mismanagement that has brought about the current situation
Posted by: Allan, Londonistan on 10:08am Fri 28 Mar 08
Carnwath - I don't think EVERYBODY in Bearsden is right wing but I do suppose most of them are reasonably wealthy and they are probably mostly law-abiding citizens who take respoonsibility for themselves and their environment, both physical and social. Not something which most criminals do. I think those of us who do work very hard for our standard of living - and being able to afford to live in Bearsden (or parts of London where I live) does require a lot of hard work please remember, I don't earn what I earn through "luck" or "privilege" - we feel slightly miffed when we see wasters and layabouts being handed a cushy life in jail, with televisions and all sorts of home comforts being just given to them. I think our bemusement is quite understandable - we wonder why, how on earth people who have broken the law can expect to be treated so well when we, who haven't broken the law, have to work our socks off for everything we have and have to pay huge amounts of personal income tax to fund something which, frankly, we grudge.
Carnwath - I don't think EVERYBODY in Bearsden is right wing but I do suppose most of them are reasonably wealthy and they are probably mostly law-abiding citizens who take respoonsibility for themselves and their environment, both physical and social. Not something which most criminals do. I think those of us who do work very hard for our standard of living - and being able to afford to live in Bearsden (or parts of London where I live) does require a lot of hard work please remember, I don't earn what I earn through "luck" or "privilege" - we feel slightly miffed when we see wasters and layabouts being handed a cushy life in jail, with televisions and all sorts of home comforts being just given to them. I think our bemusement is quite understandable - we wonder why, how on earth people who have broken the law can expect to be treated so well when we, who haven't broken the law, have to work our socks off for everything we have and have to pay huge amounts of personal income tax to fund something which, frankly, we grudge.
Posted by: GlasgowJim, Glasgow on 10:09am Fri 28 Mar 08
Yet again the minority parish council proves to be impotent.
Yet again the minority parish council proves to be impotent.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 10:18am Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Carnwarth[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]pete[/bold] wrote: Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce. [/quote] What is it about people from Bearsden, you are all so right-wing! America has lots and lots of jails and conditions are very harsh and it is a violence-soaked society. Your proposal doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, it may get you all excited to imagine dishing out punishment to firm-bodies youths in your control but let's not build a penal policy on your fantasy life.[/quote] Carnwath your responses to the calls for more jails are unreasonable. We have a problem with confidence in our Criminal Justice System, a serious problem. This explosion in the prison population was predicted and Labour ignored it. If we are now being told that nothing can be done because we don't have enough space in jails then the message being sent out is one that can only be good news to the criminal fraternity. For the law-abiding it is a worrying message and it isn't acceptable.
Rather than label people who are law-abiding and who simply want to see a fair Criminal Justice System in place, as "right wing" why don't you come up with some answers yourself?
Have you been reading papers lately. Did you see the three young people convicted earlier this week in a case where a young man was stabbed to death in a frenzied "fun" attack. Two young women were involved in that. The male involved got 15 years, one of the women 6 years and the other 15 months! Is that justice to you? They filmed the attack and took pictures of them laughing during it! Then look at the picture of Sophie in today's papers and consider what was done to her and her boyfriend by monsters! Then come back and tell me that wanting such people locked up for ever is right wing!
The soft approach by the previous Executive brought us to this point in Scotland. We need more prisons and we need them as a matter of urgency.
Carnwarth wrote:
pete wrote: Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce.
What is it about people from Bearsden, you are all so right-wing! America has lots and lots of jails and conditions are very harsh and it is a violence-soaked society. Your proposal doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, it may get you all excited to imagine dishing out punishment to firm-bodies youths in your control but let's not build a penal policy on your fantasy life.
Carnwath your responses to the calls for more jails are unreasonable. We have a problem with confidence in our Criminal Justice System, a serious problem. This explosion in the prison population was predicted and Labour ignored it. If we are now being told that nothing can be done because we don't have enough space in jails then the message being sent out is one that can only be good news to the criminal fraternity. For the law-abiding it is a worrying message and it isn't acceptable.
Rather than label people who are law-abiding and who simply want to see a fair Criminal Justice System in place, as "right wing" why don't you come up with some answers yourself?
Have you been reading papers lately. Did you see the three young people convicted earlier this week in a case where a young man was stabbed to death in a frenzied "fun" attack. Two young women were involved in that. The male involved got 15 years, one of the women 6 years and the other 15 months! Is that justice to you? They filmed the attack and took pictures of them laughing during it! Then look at the picture of Sophie in today's papers and consider what was done to her and her boyfriend by monsters! Then come back and tell me that wanting such people locked up for ever is right wing!
The soft approach by the previous Executive brought us to this point in Scotland. We need more prisons and we need them as a matter of urgency.
Posted by: Allan, Londonistan on 10:20am Fri 28 Mar 08
Clare - very eloquently put - 100% agree with everything you say and thank you for expressing it so well.
Clare - very eloquently put - 100% agree with everything you say and thank you for expressing it so well.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 10:48am Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Allan[/bold] wrote:
Carnwath - I don't think EVERYBODY in Bearsden is right wing but I do suppose most of them are reasonably wealthy and they are probably mostly law-abiding citizens who take respoonsibility for themselves and their environment, both physical and social. Not something which most criminals do. I think those of us who do work very hard for our standard of living - and being able to afford to live in Bearsden (or parts of London where I live) does require a lot of hard work please remember, I don't earn what I earn through "luck" or "privilege" - we feel slightly miffed when we see wasters and layabouts being handed a cushy life in jail, with televisions and all sorts of home comforts being just given to them. I think our bemusement is quite understandable - we wonder why, how on earth people who have broken the law can expect to be treated so well when we, who haven't broken the law, have to work our socks off for everything we have and have to pay huge amounts of personal income tax to fund something which, frankly, we grudge.[/quote] Allan, try to bear in mind that it isn't the case that only wealthy people do are law-abiding. Remember too that an awful lot of wealthy folk these days are out and out criminals in every sense of the word.
Allan wrote:
Carnwath - I don't think EVERYBODY in Bearsden is right wing but I do suppose most of them are reasonably wealthy and they are probably mostly law-abiding citizens who take respoonsibility for themselves and their environment, both physical and social. Not something which most criminals do. I think those of us who do work very hard for our standard of living - and being able to afford to live in Bearsden (or parts of London where I live) does require a lot of hard work please remember, I don't earn what I earn through "luck" or "privilege" - we feel slightly miffed when we see wasters and layabouts being handed a cushy life in jail, with televisions and all sorts of home comforts being just given to them. I think our bemusement is quite understandable - we wonder why, how on earth people who have broken the law can expect to be treated so well when we, who haven't broken the law, have to work our socks off for everything we have and have to pay huge amounts of personal income tax to fund something which, frankly, we grudge.
Allan, try to bear in mind that it isn't the case that only wealthy people do are law-abiding. Remember too that an awful lot of wealthy folk these days are out and out criminals in every sense of the word.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 11:00am Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]GlasgowJim[/bold] wrote:
Yet again the minority parish council proves to be impotent.[/quote]
This is not a problem which has come about over the last 10 months.
This happened on the last Justice Minister's watch too. And what's happening over this very problem in Westminster. Isn't the English Justice Minister Jack Straw doing the same things?
And Allan, from "Londonistan". (That says a lot about you.) It's not a good idea to equate wealth with honesty. Most of the readers on this forum could site a list of rich crooks as long as your arms and legs and then some.
Seriously before you rabbit on about criminals and how they should be treated, learn something about the problems that put them in prison in the first place, learn about recidivism, learn about how the same problems are dealt with in other countries.
And stop whining about how hard you have to work to be rich, and all the tax you pay. No one's asking you to. Give it up and get a job in Tesco if it's so difficult.
Clare, of course people who do frenzied attacks for fun should be inside, and inside for a long time. But let's be honest. These people have psychiatric problems. That doesn't mean they should be inside, but they need more than just imprisonment. They need treatment. They are not [italic]just[/italic] bad.... they are nuts. They are still gonna be nuts when they get out. Not changed at all.
We would also have have far less of a problem if we followed the example of some other European countries and didn't jail people for minor offences, like shop lifting, non payment of fines, or listening in to royals' telephone conversations.
It wouldn't just save prison spaces for those that need to be inside to keep us safe. The recidivism rates in most European countries are far far lower.
GlasgowJim wrote:
Yet again the minority parish council proves to be impotent.
This is not a problem which has come about over the last 10 months.
This happened on the last Justice Minister's watch too. And what's happening over this very problem in Westminster. Isn't the English Justice Minister Jack Straw doing the same things?
And Allan, from "Londonistan". (That says a lot about you.) It's not a good idea to equate wealth with honesty. Most of the readers on this forum could site a list of rich crooks as long as your arms and legs and then some.
Seriously before you rabbit on about criminals and how they should be treated, learn something about the problems that put them in prison in the first place, learn about recidivism, learn about how the same problems are dealt with in other countries.
And stop whining about how hard you have to work to be rich, and all the tax you pay. No one's asking you to. Give it up and get a job in Tesco if it's so difficult.
Clare, of course people who do frenzied attacks for fun should be inside, and inside for a long time. But let's be honest. These people have psychiatric problems. That doesn't mean they should be inside, but they need more than just imprisonment. They need treatment. They are not
just bad.... they are nuts. They are still gonna be nuts when they get out. Not changed at all.
We would also have have far less of a problem if we followed the example of some other European countries and didn't jail people for minor offences, like shop lifting, non payment of fines, or listening in to royals' telephone conversations.
It wouldn't just save prison spaces for those that need to be inside to keep us safe. The recidivism rates in most European countries are far far lower.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Brownovitch - the peasants have revolted on 11:03am Fri 28 Mar 08
OK! who created all these laws that require custodial sentences and yet when faced with one or two themselves shift the goal posts? This is an SNP Government problem.
Jail has never, ever worked it merely keeps criminals off the streets from time to time - the Fletcher Priniciple.
If you want less folk in jail, then you need to do something about the 12% of 16 year old school leavers who are functionally illiterate and innumerate and who make up 95% of the inmates of young offender institutions.
See the link? Labour created sink estates, Labour's appalling education record, Labour's Tammany Hall practices and a bunch of young folk who have no hope except crime (as they currently see it) to suplement the benefit scams they are already running.
I work with the 16 to 18 age group of kids and be clear they are very angry with the lack of opportunity outside of 'academia' that is on offer.
The wrong address on your CV no matter what your qualifications and you will have no chance of an interview let alone job. That is the reality for far too many 16 to 21 year olds in sink estates and folk on here wonder why they turn to crime?
Worse, if Wendy can get away with nicking £955 fraudulently or syphoning off thousands from a 'Fund Raiser', as they see it, what is wrong with them turning over the **** shop for £250 - what is the difference? They get caught its six months to a year in Dumfries YP, Wendy get's caught and the police do not even take her to court.
Yet Labour have the gall to talk about social justice for all!
OK! who created all these laws that require custodial sentences and yet when faced with one or two themselves shift the goal posts? This is an SNP Government problem.
Jail has never, ever worked it merely keeps criminals off the streets from time to time - the Fletcher Priniciple.
If you want less folk in jail, then you need to do something about the 12% of 16 year old school leavers who are functionally illiterate and innumerate and who make up 95% of the inmates of young offender institutions.
See the link? Labour created sink estates, Labour's appalling education record, Labour's Tammany Hall practices and a bunch of young folk who have no hope except crime (as they currently see it) to suplement the benefit scams they are already running.
I work with the 16 to 18 age group of kids and be clear they are very angry with the lack of opportunity outside of 'academia' that is on offer.
The wrong address on your CV no matter what your qualifications and you will have no chance of an interview let alone job. That is the reality for far too many 16 to 21 year olds in sink estates and folk on here wonder why they turn to crime?
Worse, if Wendy can get away with nicking £955 fraudulently or syphoning off thousands from a 'Fund Raiser', as they see it, what is wrong with them turning over the **** shop for £250 - what is the difference? They get caught its six months to a year in Dumfries YP, Wendy get's caught and the police do not even take her to court.
Yet Labour have the gall to talk about social justice for all!
Posted by: tris, scotland on 11:18am Fri 28 Mar 08
Well said Peter, although I think that Mrs Thatcher had a fair amount to do with some of the creaion of no-hope areas in Britian, New Labour of course did nothing to ameliorate the situation.
Like you, I've worked with teenage lads trying to give them some kinda fututre, and I'm sure like you, I think that one of the most rewarding things in the word is to see someone make a new start with some hope. That's the way forward.
Well said, and good luck with your work.
Well said Peter, although I think that Mrs Thatcher had a fair amount to do with some of the creaion of no-hope areas in Britian, New Labour of course did nothing to ameliorate the situation.
Like you, I've worked with teenage lads trying to give them some kinda fututre, and I'm sure like you, I think that one of the most rewarding things in the word is to see someone make a new start with some hope. That's the way forward.
Well said, and good luck with your work.
Posted by: Allan, Londonistan on 11:32am Fri 28 Mar 08
I have to take exception to GlasgowJim's comments about "problems" leading to crime. A wee story - not so long ago I was mugged in Islington - attacked by three white kids who hit me with bottles and stole my girlfriend's handbag. Luckily neither of us were seriously hurt. I may come from a reasonably well-off background but my girlfriend was raised on a council estate in east London and she was probably more disgusted by the behaviour of those thugs than I was. She grew up underpriviliged, with no money and a less than brilliant education and yet she herself would never stoop so low as to steal from anyone let alone attack people in the brutal and unprovoked way that those animals attacked us. When we described the three kids to the police they told us they had a fairly good idea who they were - three kids who had just been released from jail a few days before. The police were fed up with it - these kids were known trouble-makers and the worst they ever got was a month or two in jail then as soon as they came out again they were up to their old tricks. It's not the background that makes the criminal - it's the person. People from "underprivileged" backgrounds can be perfectly honest, law-abiding and decent (like my girlfriend). Also, as you say, rich people can be crooks too. Either way, the prison system is a bloody joke. And, yes, I am sick to the back teeth of paying 40% bloody tax on my "high" earnings to fund scum like the animals who attacked me. I do work my socks off for my good lifestyle and I'm pleased to do it and I'm entitled to do it. I never said I hate earning good money. However, I'm sure not alone being a fed-up, put-upon middle class guy who feels that it's us who always gets squeezed for every penny and drop of blood sweat and tears by socialist morons who think we should pay more tax all the time.
I have to take exception to GlasgowJim's comments about "problems" leading to crime. A wee story - not so long ago I was mugged in Islington - attacked by three white kids who hit me with bottles and stole my girlfriend's handbag. Luckily neither of us were seriously hurt. I may come from a reasonably well-off background but my girlfriend was raised on a council estate in east London and she was probably more disgusted by the behaviour of those thugs than I was. She grew up underpriviliged, with no money and a less than brilliant education and yet she herself would never stoop so low as to steal from anyone let alone attack people in the brutal and unprovoked way that those animals attacked us. When we described the three kids to the police they told us they had a fairly good idea who they were - three kids who had just been released from jail a few days before. The police were fed up with it - these kids were known trouble-makers and the worst they ever got was a month or two in jail then as soon as they came out again they were up to their old tricks. It's not the background that makes the criminal - it's the person. People from "underprivileged" backgrounds can be perfectly honest, law-abiding and decent (like my girlfriend). Also, as you say, rich people can be crooks too. Either way, the prison system is a bloody joke. And, yes, I am sick to the back teeth of paying 40% bloody tax on my "high" earnings to fund scum like the animals who attacked me. I do work my socks off for my good lifestyle and I'm pleased to do it and I'm entitled to do it. I never said I hate earning good money. However, I'm sure not alone being a fed-up, put-upon middle class guy who feels that it's us who always gets squeezed for every penny and drop of blood sweat and tears by socialist morons who think we should pay more tax all the time.
Posted by: Exiled Aussie, Banff on 11:36am Fri 28 Mar 08
The [bold]TARTAN TORIES[/bold] indulge in so many U-turns that wíll inevitably lead to them taking the road to nowhere.
Come to think of ít, they are on that path already !
The
TARTAN TORIES indulge in so many U-turns that wíll inevitably lead to them taking the road to nowhere.
Come to think of ít, they are on that path already !
Posted by: MtnKat, State of Disbelief on 11:42am Fri 28 Mar 08
St Kilda's, anyone?
No electronic entertainment.
Learn respect for those that went before by living as they did.
It's a d@mn shame that hard work is considered contrary to Human Rights accords.
We don't punish for for breaking the law, we re-ha-bil-i-tate. Now there's a deterrent for you.
Too bad there's no one with the b@lls to put a stop to this madness. Sadly, they're all 'hung like hamsters'.
St Kilda's, anyone?
No electronic entertainment.
Learn respect for those that went before by living as they did.
It's a d@mn shame that hard work is considered contrary to Human Rights accords.
We don't punish for for breaking the law, we re-ha-bil-i-tate. Now there's a deterrent for you.
Too bad there's no one with the b@lls to put a stop to this madness. Sadly, they're all 'hung like hamsters'.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 11:48am Fri 28 Mar 08
I see the usual unhelpful abusive non-contributors are creeping out from under their stones, the likes of Glasgow Jim and Exiled Les Patterson.
Back to your playpens now, kiddies! Leave debating to adults who can contribute some sensible suggestions.
I see the usual unhelpful abusive non-contributors are creeping out from under their stones, the likes of Glasgow Jim and Exiled Les Patterson.
Back to your playpens now, kiddies! Leave debating to adults who can contribute some sensible suggestions.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Brownovitch - the peasants have revolted on 11:50am Fri 28 Mar 08
Exiled as usual you have nothing to say: remind me;
Who's approval rating is at -22%?
80% of whose population want more power for their parliament with no hand backs to Serbminster?
Which party do polsters estimate could take up to 47 seats in Scotland at the next General Election?
Which party has been told to cancel the aircraft carrier contracts at Rosyth and Type 45 contracts on the Clyde by a Commons Select Committee as the MoD can not afford them and two wars?
Which party's policies have held Scotlands GDP at 1.3% vs the UK's 2.1%?
You mate, are a couple of prawns short of a barbeque and your outburst has nothing to say about all the kids Labour's education and housing policies in the last 50 years in Scotland dumps on the garbage heap.
Exiled as usual you have nothing to say: remind me;
Who's approval rating is at -22%?
80% of whose population want more power for their parliament with no hand backs to Serbminster?
Which party do polsters estimate could take up to 47 seats in Scotland at the next General Election?
Which party has been told to cancel the aircraft carrier contracts at Rosyth and Type 45 contracts on the Clyde by a Commons Select Committee as the MoD can not afford them and two wars?
Which party's policies have held Scotlands GDP at 1.3% vs the UK's 2.1%?
You mate, are a couple of prawns short of a barbeque and your outburst has nothing to say about all the kids Labour's education and housing policies in the last 50 years in Scotland dumps on the garbage heap.
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 11:54am Fri 28 Mar 08
I'm actually beginning to think Exiled Les Patterson is really from Oz as he claims. That particular nation is so accomplished at any sport involving balls, and every time he opens his mouth he speaks a load of them!
I'm actually beginning to think Exiled Les Patterson is really from Oz as he claims. That particular nation is so accomplished at any sport involving balls, and every time he opens his mouth he speaks a load of them!
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Brownovitch - the peasants have revolted on 12:03pm Fri 28 Mar 08
Mankycat - what part do you not get of the statement - prison does not work, has never worked and will continue not to work.
Once people are in the prison system they are already lost to any form of rehabilitiation. There are studies that demonstrate that many prisoners re-offend because they can not deal with society and feel safer in prison where they have a roof over their heads and three square meals a day.
The only way to prevent most minor crime is to deal with the cause. The cause in most cases is lack of opportunity, sense of inadequacy and anger that society has dumped them. Spend a day at Dumfries YP, speak to the kids there, many are not thick, it is simply they could not see the point of education as they would be heading for the dole. The crazy thing is many in YP are so illiterate and innumerate they can not read or fill in the forms at the Benefit Office, let alone sign their name in the right place.
Once they move on to Saughton, on their next prison spell, they are only a step away from Barlinnie, Perth or Peterhead. Society has made these people what they are.
Mankycat - what part do you not get of the statement - prison does not work, has never worked and will continue not to work.
Once people are in the prison system they are already lost to any form of rehabilitiation. There are studies that demonstrate that many prisoners re-offend because they can not deal with society and feel safer in prison where they have a roof over their heads and three square meals a day.
The only way to prevent most minor crime is to deal with the cause. The cause in most cases is lack of opportunity, sense of inadequacy and anger that society has dumped them. Spend a day at Dumfries YP, speak to the kids there, many are not thick, it is simply they could not see the point of education as they would be heading for the dole. The crazy thing is many in YP are so illiterate and innumerate they can not read or fill in the forms at the Benefit Office, let alone sign their name in the right place.
Once they move on to Saughton, on their next prison spell, they are only a step away from Barlinnie, Perth or Peterhead. Society has made these people what they are.
Posted by: Allan, Londonistan on 12:23pm Fri 28 Mar 08
Peter Thomson - what I don't understand is why we are importing workers from eastern Europe, Africa, Asia etc to fill jobs when there are indigenous Scots, Brits - call us/them what you will - who (I presume) could do the work but (I presume) won't...? Is it me that's missing the point? An eastern European surely can't be getting a far better education than lad from Dumfries, so how come there are Poles, Ukranians, Romanians everywhere working hard, earning money, paying taxes etc while there are Scots and English people not working and spending their time committing petty (and sometimes more serious) crimes? I'm really confused about this.
Peter Thomson - what I don't understand is why we are importing workers from eastern Europe, Africa, Asia etc to fill jobs when there are indigenous Scots, Brits - call us/them what you will - who (I presume) could do the work but (I presume) won't...? Is it me that's missing the point? An eastern European surely can't be getting a far better education than lad from Dumfries, so how come there are Poles, Ukranians, Romanians everywhere working hard, earning money, paying taxes etc while there are Scots and English people not working and spending their time committing petty (and sometimes more serious) crimes? I'm really confused about this.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Brownovitch - the peasants have revolted on 12:39pm Fri 28 Mar 08
Here's a challenge to anyone out there willing to take it on:
I currently organise taking 40,16 to 18 year olds, on each of two weeks from an area bounded by Motherwell, Newton Stewart along the border to Eyemouth up to Edinburgh along to Cumbernauld and back down to Motherwell.
We take the young people out of their peer groups and ask them to work together for a week to train and learn so they can complete the end of week exercise. Around 25% of this group will be from deprived social areas. We take them up to Loch Tay and work with the Abernethy Trust at Ardeonaig to give them opportunities to find out who they really are as individuals. As part of the program they have to agree to organise and run a fund raising event for a specific charity. 2007 beneficiaries were Killin Mountain Rescue, SARDA and a Nepalese charity which frees young girls from slavery. They raised over £4,000 by walking 55 miles of Hadrian's Wall.
The feedback we get from parents and social workers is that these are changed young people, focussed, self assured and realising their responsibility to themselves for their own actions. Schools report improved performance, behaviour and attitude.
This year the cost is £420 per candidate and it is fully funded by Rotary Clubs in this area, who help find and select candidates, to the tune of £30,000.
If anyone would like to find out more then look up Rotary District 1020 RYLA in Google and contact the District RYLA Officer as I would like to help set up more of these weeks to help more young people fulfil their potential. We have the proven course we do not have the funds to do more.
Here's a challenge to anyone out there willing to take it on:
I currently organise taking 40,16 to 18 year olds, on each of two weeks from an area bounded by Motherwell, Newton Stewart along the border to Eyemouth up to Edinburgh along to Cumbernauld and back down to Motherwell.
We take the young people out of their peer groups and ask them to work together for a week to train and learn so they can complete the end of week exercise. Around 25% of this group will be from deprived social areas. We take them up to Loch Tay and work with the Abernethy Trust at Ardeonaig to give them opportunities to find out who they really are as individuals. As part of the program they have to agree to organise and run a fund raising event for a specific charity. 2007 beneficiaries were Killin Mountain Rescue, SARDA and a Nepalese charity which frees young girls from slavery. They raised over £4,000 by walking 55 miles of Hadrian's Wall.
The feedback we get from parents and social workers is that these are changed young people, focussed, self assured and realising their responsibility to themselves for their own actions. Schools report improved performance, behaviour and attitude.
This year the cost is £420 per candidate and it is fully funded by Rotary Clubs in this area, who help find and select candidates, to the tune of £30,000.
If anyone would like to find out more then look up Rotary District 1020 RYLA in Google and contact the District RYLA Officer as I would like to help set up more of these weeks to help more young people fulfil their potential. We have the proven course we do not have the funds to do more.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:40pm Fri 28 Mar 08
I am all for giving young people a chance. I think there are plenty of opportunities available. I actually believe that many young people would support the idea of the violent among them being taken out of circulation because I think many young people are afraid themselves these days.
I also know poverty has always been around but it didn't stop working class people from learning. I am sick of hearing poverty being made the excuse. I am sick of the terrible consequences being paid by innnocents on the street who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when these poor, misunderstood thugs are on the loose. Tell it to Sophie's parents. Tell it to the family of the young man who died fighting off stab wound after stab wound till he finally fell dead into a bath while his murderers laughed and took pictures!
Enough is enough.
I am all for giving young people a chance. I think there are plenty of opportunities available. I actually believe that many young people would support the idea of the violent among them being taken out of circulation because I think many young people are afraid themselves these days.
I also know poverty has always been around but it didn't stop working class people from learning. I am sick of hearing poverty being made the excuse. I am sick of the terrible consequences being paid by innnocents on the street who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when these poor, misunderstood thugs are on the loose. Tell it to Sophie's parents. Tell it to the family of the young man who died fighting off stab wound after stab wound till he finally fell dead into a bath while his murderers laughed and took pictures!
Enough is enough.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Brownovitch - the peasants have revolted on 12:46pm Fri 28 Mar 08
These kids in Dumfries YP can not read or write so can not even fill in a benefit form let alone find, read or fill in a job application.
Eastern Europeans from Rumania are often brought in by a gang boss who is fulfilling a short term contract so has completed the paper work for them.
Most Polish youngsters I have met in Edinburgh have come across on completion of their degree to improve their English and they earn more as waiters than they would get persuing their profession / career in Poland. Many are looking to save so when they go back to Poland they can buy their own house and set up in business.
Your point is?
These kids in Dumfries YP can not read or write so can not even fill in a benefit form let alone find, read or fill in a job application.
Eastern Europeans from Rumania are often brought in by a gang boss who is fulfilling a short term contract so has completed the paper work for them.
Most Polish youngsters I have met in Edinburgh have come across on completion of their degree to improve their English and they earn more as waiters than they would get persuing their profession / career in Poland. Many are looking to save so when they go back to Poland they can buy their own house and set up in business.
Your point is?
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:47pm Fri 28 Mar 08
"Society has made these people what they are."
Peter I really take exception to that remark. I am willing to take no responsibility whatsoever for the sort of people we have to live alongside these days and you really have no right to decide that any of us should shoulder the blame. Your approach in that sentence is absurd.
"Society has made these people what they are."
Peter I really take exception to that remark. I am willing to take no responsibility whatsoever for the sort of people we have to live alongside these days and you really have no right to decide that any of us should shoulder the blame. Your approach in that sentence is absurd.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Brownovitch - the peasants have revolted on 1:00pm Fri 28 Mar 08
Clare I understand your anger but hanging never stopped murder from happening, bread from being stolen or people from begging. Locking folk up hasn't had any detterent effect either. The kids you are angry about are too late to help, they are already part of the lost generation.
I am talking about prevention, getting to the young people in a way that creates opportunity, gives them a chance rather than says you are from Drumchapel so you must be a ned or a criminal.
Once young people are in the prison system it confirms to them what they are - failures, headcases, stupid or daft for being caught.
If they have no respect for themselves they can have no respect for anyone and if you consider yourself a failure or stupid what does that say for your self respect?
A headmistress friend who works in a primary school on the edge of a sink estate says by seven years old they can tell which children have been lost to future education.
Should we just sling all these seven year olds in prison or look at a preventive program to get them engaged in education and society at large?
Clare I understand your anger but hanging never stopped murder from happening, bread from being stolen or people from begging. Locking folk up hasn't had any detterent effect either. The kids you are angry about are too late to help, they are already part of the lost generation.
I am talking about prevention, getting to the young people in a way that creates opportunity, gives them a chance rather than says you are from Drumchapel so you must be a ned or a criminal.
Once young people are in the prison system it confirms to them what they are - failures, headcases, stupid or daft for being caught.
If they have no respect for themselves they can have no respect for anyone and if you consider yourself a failure or stupid what does that say for your self respect?
A headmistress friend who works in a primary school on the edge of a sink estate says by seven years old they can tell which children have been lost to future education.
Should we just sling all these seven year olds in prison or look at a preventive program to get them engaged in education and society at large?
Posted by: Carnwarth, Carnwarth on 1:06pm Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Allan[/bold] wrote:
Carnwath - I don't think EVERYBODY in Bearsden is right wing but I do suppose most of them are reasonably wealthy and they are probably mostly law-abiding citizens who take respoonsibility for themselves and their environment, both physical and social. Not something which most criminals do. I think those of us who do work very hard for our standard of living - and being able to afford to live in Bearsden (or parts of London where I live) does require a lot of hard work please remember, I don't earn what I earn through "luck" or "privilege" - we feel slightly miffed when we see wasters and layabouts being handed a cushy life in jail, with televisions and all sorts of home comforts being just given to them. I think our bemusement is quite understandable - we wonder why, how on earth people who have broken the law can expect to be treated so well when we, who haven't broken the law, have to work our socks off for everything we have and have to pay huge amounts of personal income tax to fund something which, frankly, we grudge.[/quote] Wealthy and law-abiding - like Lord Black, Wendy Alexander, the NatWest Three ...
Allan wrote:
Carnwath - I don't think EVERYBODY in Bearsden is right wing but I do suppose most of them are reasonably wealthy and they are probably mostly law-abiding citizens who take respoonsibility for themselves and their environment, both physical and social. Not something which most criminals do. I think those of us who do work very hard for our standard of living - and being able to afford to live in Bearsden (or parts of London where I live) does require a lot of hard work please remember, I don't earn what I earn through "luck" or "privilege" - we feel slightly miffed when we see wasters and layabouts being handed a cushy life in jail, with televisions and all sorts of home comforts being just given to them. I think our bemusement is quite understandable - we wonder why, how on earth people who have broken the law can expect to be treated so well when we, who haven't broken the law, have to work our socks off for everything we have and have to pay huge amounts of personal income tax to fund something which, frankly, we grudge.
Wealthy and law-abiding - like Lord Black, Wendy Alexander, the NatWest Three ...
Posted by: tris, scotland on 1:15pm Fri 28 Mar 08
According to another story in this paper 65% of prisoners have a reading age of 11 years or under... It tells you a lot of what you need to know. It maybe should add that many of them will have drug problems, drink problems, mental health problems.
Bliar said tough on crime; tough on the causes of crime. It's a pity it was just a smart **** soundbite and he nothing much about either.
According to another story in this paper 65% of prisoners have a reading age of 11 years or under... It tells you a lot of what you need to know. It maybe should add that many of them will have drug problems, drink problems, mental health problems.
Bliar said tough on crime; tough on the causes of crime. It's a pity it was just a smart **** soundbite and he nothing much about either.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Brownovitch - the peasants have revolted on 1:16pm Fri 28 Mar 08
Clare we are all part of the problem through what we do or have failed to do by act or ommission. To say this is some one elses problem is to try and pretend the problem does not exist.
Have any current political policies had much effect on offending and re-offending? The figures say all we are getting is more of the same.
The idea that things were better say in the sixties is a myth beloved of politicians. You were just as likely to have your purse snatched or be chibbed in Glasgow forty years ago as you are now.
50 years of the same old, same old thinking and you wonder why things have not got better?
I wonder why Jack McConnel killed the Airborne Program - maybe it was because it was proving all the social scientists wrong that key to these youngster's rehabilitation was not 'understanding' or 'empathising' with them but helping them create their own self awareness, self respect and self discipline.
We will never prevent crime but we can reduce them by giving more young people a chance at life.
Clare we are all part of the problem through what we do or have failed to do by act or ommission. To say this is some one elses problem is to try and pretend the problem does not exist.
Have any current political policies had much effect on offending and re-offending? The figures say all we are getting is more of the same.
The idea that things were better say in the sixties is a myth beloved of politicians. You were just as likely to have your purse snatched or be chibbed in Glasgow forty years ago as you are now.
50 years of the same old, same old thinking and you wonder why things have not got better?
I wonder why Jack McConnel killed the Airborne Program - maybe it was because it was proving all the social scientists wrong that key to these youngster's rehabilitation was not 'understanding' or 'empathising' with them but helping them create their own self awareness, self respect and self discipline.
We will never prevent crime but we can reduce them by giving more young people a chance at life.
Posted by: Carnwarth, Carnwarth on 1:19pm Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Clare[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Carnwarth[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]pete[/bold] wrote: Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce. [/quote] What is it about people from Bearsden, you are all so right-wing! America has lots and lots of jails and conditions are very harsh and it is a violence-soaked society. Your proposal doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, it may get you all excited to imagine dishing out punishment to firm-bodies youths in your control but let's not build a penal policy on your fantasy life.[/quote] Carnwath your responses to the calls for more jails are unreasonable. We have a problem with confidence in our Criminal Justice System, a serious problem. This explosion in the prison population was predicted and Labour ignored it. If we are now being told that nothing can be done because we don't have enough space in jails then the message being sent out is one that can only be good news to the criminal fraternity. For the law-abiding it is a worrying message and it isn't acceptable. Rather than label people who are law-abiding and who simply want to see a fair Criminal Justice System in place, as "right wing" why don't you come up with some answers yourself? Have you been reading papers lately. Did you see the three young people convicted earlier this week in a case where a young man was stabbed to death in a frenzied "fun" attack. Two young women were involved in that. The male involved got 15 years, one of the women 6 years and the other 15 months! Is that justice to you? They filmed the attack and took pictures of them laughing during it! Then look at the picture of Sophie in today's papers and consider what was done to her and her boyfriend by monsters! Then come back and tell me that wanting such people locked up for ever is right wing! The soft approach by the previous Executive brought us to this point in Scotland. We need more prisons and we need them as a matter of urgency. [/quote] [bold]Clare[/bold] - my only point is that putting more people in prisons does not reduce crime, experience in all countries tells us that (the literature is vast - I could waste time collecting some references but I suspect the "more prisons now!" brigade are impervious to evidence, they are motivated by something else).
I agree with what you write about these awful assaults - absolutely disgusting and the people invoved are vile - but more prisons will not fix the situation. The reason I suggest people who, in the face of all the evidence, call for more prisons are right-wing as they tend to the "hang 'em and flog 'em" approach and in terms of private prison and prison services are lobbying for public money to be turned into private profit - all in the cause of making things worse for the rest of us.
Just because I don't have the answer to crime doesn't mean you, a sometimes thoughtful person, are justified in repeating the mantra "more jails now!" when all the evidence says this will not work and will only use up resources.
Last point - i am not sure calling peopel monsters helps - they are human beings, damaged and highly dangerous human beings but human beings nonetheless. And yes, calling for murderers to be locked up "for ever" [italic]is[/italic] right-wing - it smacks of unrestrained retribution and denies the posibility of change.
Clare wrote:
Carnwarth wrote: pete wrote: Build more jails - rather obvious solution to the problem. Make the jails a darned sight harsher and they won't be so keen on going back in - oooops forgot, this will go against their "human rights." This "tagging" nonsense is a complete farce.
What is it about people from Bearsden, you are all so right-wing! America has lots and lots of jails and conditions are very harsh and it is a violence-soaked society. Your proposal doesn't work in terms of reducing crime, it may get you all excited to imagine dishing out punishment to firm-bodies youths in your control but let's not build a penal policy on your fantasy life.
Carnwath your responses to the calls for more jails are unreasonable. We have a problem with confidence in our Criminal Justice System, a serious problem. This explosion in the prison population was predicted and Labour ignored it. If we are now being told that nothing can be done because we don't have enough space in jails then the message being sent out is one that can only be good news to the criminal fraternity. For the law-abiding it is a worrying message and it isn't acceptable. Rather than label people who are law-abiding and who simply want to see a fair Criminal Justice System in place, as "right wing" why don't you come up with some answers yourself? Have you been reading papers lately. Did you see the three young people convicted earlier this week in a case where a young man was stabbed to death in a frenzied "fun" attack. Two young women were involved in that. The male involved got 15 years, one of the women 6 years and the other 15 months! Is that justice to you? They filmed the attack and took pictures of them laughing during it! Then look at the picture of Sophie in today's papers and consider what was done to her and her boyfriend by monsters! Then come back and tell me that wanting such people locked up for ever is right wing! The soft approach by the previous Executive brought us to this point in Scotland. We need more prisons and we need them as a matter of urgency.
Clare - my only point is that putting more people in prisons does not reduce crime, experience in all countries tells us that (the literature is vast - I could waste time collecting some references but I suspect the "more prisons now!" brigade are impervious to evidence, they are motivated by something else).
I agree with what you write about these awful assaults - absolutely disgusting and the people invoved are vile - but more prisons will not fix the situation. The reason I suggest people who, in the face of all the evidence, call for more prisons are right-wing as they tend to the "hang 'em and flog 'em" approach and in terms of private prison and prison services are lobbying for public money to be turned into private profit - all in the cause of making things worse for the rest of us.
Just because I don't have the answer to crime doesn't mean you, a sometimes thoughtful person, are justified in repeating the mantra "more jails now!" when all the evidence says this will not work and will only use up resources.
Last point - i am not sure calling peopel monsters helps - they are human beings, damaged and highly dangerous human beings but human beings nonetheless. And yes, calling for murderers to be locked up "for ever"
is right-wing - it smacks of unrestrained retribution and denies the posibility of change.
Posted by: Carnwarth, Carnwarth on 1:23pm Fri 28 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Allan[/bold] wrote:
Peter Thomson - what I don't understand is why we are importing workers from eastern Europe, Africa, Asia etc to fill jobs when there are indigenous Scots, Brits - call us/them what you will - who (I presume) could do the work but (I presume) won't...? Is it me that's missing the point? An eastern European surely can't be getting a far better education than lad from Dumfries, so how come there are Poles, Ukranians, Romanians everywhere working hard, earning money, paying taxes etc while there are Scots and English people not working and spending their time committing petty (and sometimes more serious) crimes? I'm really confused about this.[/quote] [bold]Clare[/bold] - you wonder why I call these people right-wing? This is a story about prisons and Allan uses it as an opportunity to bash immigrants, sounds quite right-wing to me!
Allan wrote:
Peter Thomson - what I don't understand is why we are importing workers from eastern Europe, Africa, Asia etc to fill jobs when there are indigenous Scots, Brits - call us/them what you will - who (I presume) could do the work but (I presume) won't...? Is it me that's missing the
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