Former chief medical officer to lead devolution review
 |
| MAKING PLEDGE: Gordon Brown |
Sir Kenneth Calman, the former chief medical officer of both Scotland and England, is to chair the independent review of the Scottish Parliament's devolved powers.
He was announced this morning at a press conference at which he was flanked by Scottish Tory Annabel Goldie, Labour leader Wendy Alexander and Lib Dem Nicol Stephen.
He said that the group sees independence as "not an issue" for them to address, and said his committee's independence would mean the Prime Minister would not be able to dictate its findings. After a dispute over the title of the group, it was confirmed by Prime Minister Gordon Brown this morning that he is describing it as a "Commission". Until yesterday, he and other Whitehall ministers had insisted on describing it as a review or working group, but the commission title was confirmed when the UK Cabinet approved the initiative this morning.
Other members of the group are to be appointed within the next week or so, including representatives of the three parties taking part.
They are to produce an interim report within about six months, and then consider the timetable for producing their full report.
Sir Kenneth grew up in Glasgow and became professor of cancer medicine at Glasgow University before becoming chief medical officer in Scotland and later for England. He was chairman of the executive group of the World Health Organisation and is now chancellor of the University of Glasgow. He said at the press conference: "I see myself as part of the United Kingdom, and as a Scot within that".
Tomorrow, First Minister and SNP leader Alex Salmond sets out his plans for the second stage of his National Conversation on independence.
The Prime Minister has begun a vital week for constitutional reform, with a pledge that the review of Holyrood's powers will be wide-ranging. It is to allow for all issues to be addressed including the case for more financial levers, while staying within the UK.
In an article published today aimed at English readers, he says the Union reflects self-interest for all the nations within "the world's most successful multi-national state", but it is more than "a contract of convenience that can be renegotiated".
In the Commons today, Justice Secretary Jack Straw will set out a statement of values that defines British citizenship, with the case for a bill of citizens' rights and obligations. He is also reported to be considering reform of the Westminster voting system to make it more proportional.
The next stage of constitutional reform will be to press for more power at local, regional and national levels, including stronger city government in England.
Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.
"The Union is a multiplier for good that too often and for too long has been taken for granted," the Prime Minister wrote for the Daily Telegraph. "It is time now to explain how the Union can benefit all of us and not at the expense of each other."
In separate developments on home rule, Labour, Conservative and LibDem leaders at Holyrood today unveil the convener of the panel that is to review devolution powers 10 years on. In an unusual move, this was being co-ordinated by the Scotland Office, even though no UK ministers are expected at today's event.
It gave the SNP more opportunity to taunt Labour for what Nationalists see as Downing Street controlling the devolution review. It was claimed the title of a review, and not a commission, as proposed by Wendy Alexander, Labour's leader at Holyrood, shows her plan has been "killed off". Western Isles SNP MSP Alasdair Allan turned up the pressure on Ms Alexander ahead of her crucial conference in Aviemore this weekend.
"The commission is dead," he said. "After four months Wendy's plans have been formally downgraded. There are now serious questions to be asked: how can the commission, meant to be a body of the Scottish Parliament, be announced as a review by the Scotland Office?
"And do the Liberal Democrats, accused by Wendy Alexander of woolly thinking', now accept Gordon Brown's edict that powers can be transferred from Scotland to Westminster?"
The raised tensions are partly explained by Alex Salmond's speech tomorrow to representatives of civic Scotland, intended to push the debate about independence out to non-political groups. The first stage of the National Conversation was launched in August, and has been conducted largely online.
The new phase has won the backing of Labour's former first minister, Henry McLeish, saying independence should be seen as "a positive option". Sam Galbraith, his former ministerial colleague, responded that it would be better for Labour and for Mr McLeish if he joined the SNP.
Labour yesterday claimed the SNP's National Conversation is "a sham and a desperate attempt to cobble together superficial legitimacy for independence at taxpayers' expense". Front bencher Jackie Baillie hit out at "inflammatory" comments which have been posted on the Scottish Government's website, including the suggestion that all Union flags should be burned, and an attack on English retirees living in Scotland. She said: "They can't disguise the fact that it is being met with complete indifference by the Scottish people."
© All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without
permission is prohibited.
Posted by: snecked, Argyll on 10:32pm Mon 24 Mar 08
All over the shop stuff from Labour. What a hoot! Those of us who figured out years ago that Gordon Brown could only exist as an artificial construct and would soon burn out when exposed to continuous public scrutiny have been generously vindicated. There are many good people in the Labour Party but Labour is beyond salvation in Scotland in its present form. I find theose in the Labour party who are silent at the moment rather more interesting than the ones who are squealing loudly.
Who'll be first over?
All over the shop stuff from Labour. What a hoot! Those of us who figured out years ago that Gordon Brown could only exist as an artificial construct and would soon burn out when exposed to continuous public scrutiny have been generously vindicated. There are many good people in the Labour Party but Labour is beyond salvation in Scotland in its present form. I find theose in the Labour party who are silent at the moment rather more interesting than the ones who are squealing loudly.
Who'll be first over?
Posted by: Graham Balls, Aberdeen on 10:36pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Is this a jigsaw puzzle?
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 10:43pm Mon 24 Mar 08
This has turned into a complete and utter farce.
I think the Labour party are about to implode (heids doon when it’s Jackie Baillie’s turn!).
Aviemore is certainly going to be interesting.
This has turned into a complete and utter farce.
I think the Labour party are about to implode (heids doon when it’s Jackie Baillie’s turn!).
Aviemore is certainly going to be interesting.
Posted by: David Alexander on 11:03pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Mr Brown & Ms Alexander
You don't speak for me. Or my English wife.
I thank you.
Good night.
Mr Brown & Ms Alexander
You don't speak for me. Or my English wife.
I thank you.
Good night.
Posted by: David Alexander on 11:04pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Mr Brown & Ms Alexander
You don't speak for me. Or my English wife.
I thank you.
Good night.
Mr Brown & Ms Alexander
You don't speak for me. Or my English wife.
I thank you.
Good night.
Posted by: wee folding bike on 11:29pm Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote]Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.[/quote]
Surely that must be a misprint. Is Brown really that daft? I Googled for his piece but I can't find it on line yet.
What if you are Proud to be Scottish?
Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.
Surely that must be a misprint. Is Brown really that daft? I Googled for his piece but I can't find it on line yet.
What if you are Proud to be Scottish?
Posted by: britfree, camelon on 11:39pm Mon 24 Mar 08
its like a cracked bell , no longer rings true . the present generation of scots bairns have seen the real world and know well enough that its not union with england that causes the sun to shine , or the seasons to turn , lucky lucky luxembourg
its like a cracked bell , no longer rings true . the present generation of scots bairns have seen the real world and know well enough that its not union with england that causes the sun to shine , or the seasons to turn , lucky lucky luxembourg
Posted by: beckypumps1, fife on 11:40pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Mr Brown’s majority in Fife is shrinking by the day.Maybe he could get a safe seat south of the border then again maybe not.
Mr Brown’s majority in Fife is shrinking by the day.Maybe he could get a safe seat south of the border then again maybe not.
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 11:43pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Wfb asked "What if you are Proud to be Scottish?"
I would hazard a guess that he’s having a severe identity crisis!
Wfb asked "What if you are Proud to be Scottish?"
I would hazard a guess that he’s having a severe identity crisis!
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 11:46pm Mon 24 Mar 08
"Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union." Do my eyes deceive me? Does this mean that to be anti-Scottish is the same as pro-Union?
Keystone cops. Salmond must be sleeping well in his kip these days. Not an iota of opposition from anywhere.
Good news for independence!
"Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union." Do my eyes deceive me? Does this mean that to be anti-Scottish is the same as pro-Union?
Keystone cops. Salmond must be sleeping well in his kip these days. Not an iota of opposition from anywhere.
Good news for independence!
Posted by: wee folding bike on 11:52pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Kent,
At the very least, yes.
But more interestingly no longer can Labour claim that Scottish and British are identities which can coexist. To be in favour of one is to be against the other.
Unless it is a misprint... surely it must be. He really couldn't be that mad.
Kent,
At the very least, yes.
But more interestingly no longer can Labour claim that Scottish and British are identities which can coexist. To be in favour of one is to be against the other.
Unless it is a misprint... surely it must be. He really couldn't be that mad.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 12:04am Tue 25 Mar 08
To be honest, with all that's happened in Scottish politics; does anyone really care what Brown promises?
To be honest, with all that's happened in Scottish politics; does anyone really care what Brown promises?
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 12:06am Tue 25 Mar 08
wfb, I think he’s truly lost the plot.
Henry McLeish is now supporting the National Conversation, Wendy is being constantly undermined on a daily basis by Broon’s interventions, Broon’s ravings about being pro-Scottish is just bizarre, the Labour party are getting hammered in the polls both in England and Scotland, the Labour MSP’s are divided and stabbing each other in the back, Wendy has been outed as a numpty – I think the pressure has got to them.
wfb, I think he’s truly lost the plot.
Henry McLeish is now supporting the National Conversation, Wendy is being constantly undermined on a daily basis by Broon’s interventions, Broon’s ravings about being pro-Scottish is just bizarre, the Labour party are getting hammered in the polls both in England and Scotland, the Labour MSP’s are divided and stabbing each other in the back, Wendy has been outed as a numpty – I think the pressure has got to them.
Posted by: subrosa on 12:07am Tue 25 Mar 08
I've searched the Telegraph website but can't find the article. Panic stations at number 10 I think :)
I've searched the Telegraph website but can't find the article. Panic stations at number 10 I think :)
Posted by: Proud to be Scottish, Glasgow on 12:15am Tue 25 Mar 08
You would think that Browne had just a launched a nuclear attack on Andorra from the hulaballoo on here.
It's Ok for the nats to have a 'conversation' but when anyone else opens their gob they get shouted down by the nats.
I'm Proud that I am Scottish - and I am Proud to part of the most succesful multi-nation state in the world. I thought co-operating with other nations was outward looking and good. I await the nat drones to tell me that this view is narrow and insular and that an Independent Scotland, severed from England by a great big dyke is 'internationalist".
I await, bag of wotsits in hand.
You would think that Browne had just a launched a nuclear attack on Andorra from the hulaballoo on here.
It's Ok for the nats to have a 'conversation' but when anyone else opens their gob they get shouted down by the nats.
I'm Proud that I am Scottish - and I am Proud to part of the most succesful multi-nation state in the world. I thought co-operating with other nations was outward looking and good. I await the nat drones to tell me that this view is narrow and insular and that an Independent Scotland, severed from England by a great big dyke is 'internationalist".
I await, bag of wotsits in hand.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:16am Tue 25 Mar 08
So brown is now saying that you are either Scottish or your british!
Well quite frankly im Scottish.
So brown is now saying that you are either Scottish or your british!
Well quite frankly im Scottish.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:16am Tue 25 Mar 08
On a BBC television, on the same evening, came these headlines contained in two UK nationally broadcast separate programmes:
"Frost over [bold]England[/bold] "
What do three feet dwarfs in the [bold]Cairngorms[/bold] fear? Four feet drifts?
"Fifth Gear"
This week's competition: Which mountain in[bold] England[/bold] is the highest - [bold]Ben Nevis,[/bold] Snowdon, or Scafell Pike?
I presume the last is a trick question. Even so, it's perverse.
In any event, it doesn't give one much coinfidence that any outcome arising from a review on devolution will make stop Scotland getting patronised, marginalised, and disenfranchised.
On a BBC television, on the same evening, came these headlines contained in two UK nationally broadcast separate programmes:
"Frost over
England "
What do three feet dwarfs in the
Cairngorms fear? Four feet drifts?
"Fifth Gear"
This week's competition: Which mountain in
England is the highest -
Ben Nevis, Snowdon, or Scafell Pike?
I presume the last is a trick question. Even so, it's perverse.
In any event, it doesn't give one much coinfidence that any outcome arising from a review on devolution will make stop Scotland getting patronised, marginalised, and disenfranchised.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:16am Tue 25 Mar 08
[bold]Brown skipping to an SNP tune[/bold]
Brown skipping to an SNP tune Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 12:19am Tue 25 Mar 08
[italic]..................wi
th a plea for middle England to support more change in Scotland.[/italic]
What exactly does that mean?
..................wi
th a plea for middle England to support more change in Scotland.
What exactly does that mean?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:22am Tue 25 Mar 08
Proud To Be Skittish[quote]I am Proud to part of the most succesful multi-nation state in the world.[/quote] Sorry - Bush claims that for the United States of America. And it's copyrighted, protected by constant CIA survey, and WMD.
According to Rumsfeld we are "old Europe" - a phrase to be spoken with a pronounced sneer.
More crapology from Proud To Be Skittish[quote]England by a great big dyke is 'internationalist".[/quote]Do you mean Greg Dyke, Dick Van Dyke, or a very large woman with cropped hair, wearing a suit and bovver boots?
Proud To Be Skittish
I am Proud to part of the most succesful multi-nation state in the world.
Sorry - Bush claims that for the United States of America. And it's copyrighted, protected by constant CIA survey, and WMD.
According to Rumsfeld we are "old Europe" - a phrase to be spoken with a pronounced sneer.
More crapology from Proud To Be Skittish
England by a great big dyke is 'internationalist".
Do you mean Greg Dyke, Dick Van Dyke, or a very large woman with cropped hair, wearing a suit and bovver boots?
Posted by: Steve A, Glasgow on 12:23am Tue 25 Mar 08
Wonder what the next bombshell to hit wendy will be!And will it happen the day before the conference??You wouldn't rule it out would you?What time does the conference start at ? Is it 9-50?eee!
Wonder what the next bombshell to hit wendy will be!And will it happen the day before the conference??You wouldn't rule it out would you?What time does the conference start at ? Is it 9-50?eee!
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 12:27am Tue 25 Mar 08
PtbS, I think you need to read the article again, particularly the bit that says to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.
I think we should hold a competition to see who can come up with the best wee new name for you, I’ll start:
Proud to hand back all our power to Westminster.
PtbS, I think you need to read the article again, particularly the bit that says to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.
I think we should hold a competition to see who can come up with the best wee new name for you, I’ll start:
Proud to hand back all our power to Westminster.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:28am Tue 25 Mar 08
Gordon Only Mildly Brown[quote]Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.[/quote] Adding, "MPs will be allowed to vote by conscience. There is absolutely no truth in the rumour that to breed a Scots emryo with an English one will create some sort of two-headed animalistic monster which did not know which way to look."
Gordon Only Mildly Brown
Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.
Adding, "MPs will be allowed to vote by conscience. There is absolutely no truth in the rumour that to breed a Scots emryo with an English one will create some sort of two-headed animalistic monster which did not know which way to look."
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:31am Tue 25 Mar 08
[quote]Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.[/quote] Shoorly shome mishtake.
Still, Gazza Broon is in such a befuddled state, it may not be a misprint. In a Douglas fraser article too.
Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union.
Shoorly shome mishtake.
Still, Gazza Broon is in such a befuddled state, it may not be a misprint. In a Douglas fraser article too.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:34am Tue 25 Mar 08
[quote]with a plea for middle England to support more change in Scotland.[/quote]
A nation shrugs ...yeah, whatever ...
with a plea for middle England to support more change in Scotland.
A nation shrugs ...yeah, whatever ...
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 12:36am Tue 25 Mar 08
[bold]News that is of great interest to Scots but has not been reported in Scottish newspapers.
Item no 1: Trains[/bold]
We are informed by an English based newspaper today that there is an intention to raise the fares for trains on the West Coast Line, to discourage people from using them, as the trains are over-subscribed. It had been intended to put 2 extra coaches on the trains to improve things, but talks on this have fallen through and it won’t now happen until 2012. However there is a move to put these coaches on the southern part of the line and make the people who travel beyond Preston, mainly Scots, change trains.
(Note: The Transport Minister is Ruth Kelly)
What madness is this? Another Union dividend?
News that is of great interest to Scots but has not been reported in Scottish newspapers.
Item no 1: Trains
We are informed by an English based newspaper today that there is an intention to raise the fares for trains on the West Coast Line, to discourage people from using them, as the trains are over-subscribed. It had been intended to put 2 extra coaches on the trains to improve things, but talks on this have fallen through and it won’t now happen until 2012. However there is a move to put these coaches on the southern part of the line and make the people who travel beyond Preston, mainly Scots, change trains.
(Note: The Transport Minister is Ruth Kelly)
What madness is this? Another Union dividend?
Posted by: Samoyed, Costa del Menie on 12:51am Tue 25 Mar 08
Hey! **** to be Sprayed, sorry about your master's voice. What a good servant you would make if you should have a good lord.
Remember, to co-operate is not to be co-mmanded, an agreement among equals, but without some being more equals than others, if you know where I'm coming from.
Hey! **** to be Sprayed, sorry about your master's voice. What a good servant you would make if you should have a good lord.
Remember, to co-operate is not to be co-mmanded, an agreement among equals, but without some being more equals than others, if you know where I'm coming from.
Posted by: wisnaeme, wisnae there on 1:10am Tue 25 Mar 08
Ah'm terribly confused, so ah am.
So ah'm maybe fer Britishness Brown and agin this separateness nonsense an that makes me mair Scottish an proud of it,
...an tae encourage me tae be mair proud tae be Scottish. Brown jobbie is gonna hae a wurd wae ra English to ge ra separatists mair power.
Whit ra feck is he on?
.
Ah'm terribly confused, so ah am.
So ah'm maybe fer Britishness Brown and agin this separateness nonsense an that makes me mair Scottish an proud of it,
...an tae encourage me tae be mair proud tae be Scottish. Brown jobbie is gonna hae a wurd wae ra English to ge ra separatists mair power.
Whit ra feck is he on?
.
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 1:36am Tue 25 Mar 08
PROUD TO KNUCKLE THE FORELOCK My question is this:
Are you for real? I find it hard - yes, I know its a failing of mine! -
to believe that there are out there still sad, deluded fools who
still hold a candle for THE NEW LABOUR
PROJECT And I ask you ptbs, is it mental health issues, are
you for example a dangerous sociopath, or a just a simple fool?
Do tell !
PROUD TO KNUCKLE THE FORELOCK My question is this:
Are you for real? I find it hard - yes, I know its a failing of mine! -
to believe that there are out there still sad, deluded fools who
still hold a candle for THE NEW LABOUR
PROJECT And I ask you ptbs, is it mental health issues, are
you for example a dangerous sociopath, or a just a simple fool?
Do tell !
Posted by: WJ, Ayrshire on 1:46am Tue 25 Mar 08
Quite a comment, "to be pro-Scottish is to be anti-Union".
The inference being that there is no Scotland in a United Kingdom.
And Wendy Alexendar claims this man to be a great politician???
This man is quite possibly the most inept politician of our time (and quite possibly all time)..........what then of the 'great intellect' that is Wendy Alexander?
When it comes to Wendy Alexander, am I the only one who is reminded of the classic Kia-ora advert?.........."I'
ll be your dog!"?
Great intellect indeed! And to think of all those journalists suckered into the myth of the great intellect?..........
.makes it almost impossible to backtrack with any sense of dignity doesn't it Douglas?
Then again, you're so far up the 'great dundertwit's' bahookie you can't see the p/flaps for the ring piece.
Quite a comment, "to be pro-Scottish is to be anti-Union".
The inference being that there is no Scotland in a United Kingdom.
And Wendy Alexendar claims this man to be a great politician???
This man is quite possibly the most inept politician of our time (and quite possibly all time)..........what then of the 'great intellect' that is Wendy Alexander?
When it comes to Wendy Alexander, am I the only one who is reminded of the classic Kia-ora advert?.........."I'
ll be your dog!"?
Great intellect indeed! And to think of all those journalists suckered into the myth of the great intellect?..........
.makes it almost impossible to backtrack with any sense of dignity doesn't it Douglas?
Then again, you're so far up the 'great dundertwit's' bahookie you can't see the p/flaps for the ring piece.
Posted by: Edward, Edinburgh on 2:58am Tue 25 Mar 08
First line read 'More than a year ago I argued that a debate about the future of the United Kingdom was long overdue'
Really?
http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/opinion/main.
jhtml?xml=/opinion/2
008/03/25/do2501.xml
First line read 'More than a year ago I argued that a debate about the future of the United Kingdom was long overdue'
Really?
http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/opinion/main.
jhtml?xml=/opinion/2
008/03/25/do2501.xml
Posted by: Cochrane, Glasgow on 2:59am Tue 25 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
On a BBC television, on the same evening, came these headlines contained in two UK nationally broadcast separate programmes:
"Frost over [bold]England[/bold] "
What do three feet dwarfs in the [bold]Cairngorms[/bold] fear? Four feet drifts?
"Fifth Gear"
This week's competition: Which mountain in[bold] England[/bold] is the highest - [bold]Ben Nevis,[/bold] Snowdon, or Scafell Pike?
I presume the last is a trick question. Even so, it's perverse.
In any event, it doesn't give one much coinfidence that any outcome arising from a review on devolution will make stop Scotland getting patronised, marginalised, and disenfranchised.
[/quote] Nothing new there then.
I've noticed this phenomenon all my life.
Los Angeles wrote:
On a BBC television, on the same evening, came these headlines contained in two UK nationally broadcast separate programmes:
"Frost over England "
What do three feet dwarfs in the Cairngorms fear? Four feet drifts?
"Fifth Gear"
This week's competition: Which mountain in England is the highest - Ben Nevis, Snowdon, or Scafell Pike?
I presume the last is a trick question. Even so, it's perverse.
In any event, it doesn't give one much coinfidence that any outcome arising from a review on devolution will make stop Scotland getting patronised, marginalised, and disenfranchised.
Nothing new there then.
I've noticed this phenomenon all my life.
Posted by: Edward, Edinburgh on 3:03am Tue 25 Mar 08
Think Brown is trying to re-write history :
'10 years ago we embarked on devolution - ensuring that the smaller nations that are part of the UK have more control over their own affairs. Devolution simply acknowledges the dual identities: Welsh and British, Scottish and British too'
I always thought that ALL the Nations MADE up the United Kingdom
There is an insinuation from his statement that we are a small nation that joined the UK. Loved the 'dual identities' crap Brown trully is living in a union jack world devoid of reality
Think Brown is trying to re-write history :
'10 years ago we embarked on devolution - ensuring that the smaller nations that are part of the UK have more control over their own affairs. Devolution simply acknowledges the dual identities: Welsh and British, Scottish and British too'
I always thought that ALL the Nations MADE up the United Kingdom
There is an insinuation from his statement that we are a small nation that joined the UK. Loved the 'dual identities' crap Brown trully is living in a union jack world devoid of reality
Posted by: Edward, Edinburgh on 3:07am Tue 25 Mar 08
also from the Telegraph article
'the Union is more like a covenant founded on shared values'
A bit of repainting what happened in 1707 I think
I hadnt realised that we were all for the Union and there was much rejoicing in the streets when it happened - hurrah for the Union - give be a break
or perhasp a sick bag, as reading through the piece in the Telegrapg, it is so neuseating!
also from the Telegraph article
'the Union is more like a covenant founded on shared values'
A bit of repainting what happened in 1707 I think
I hadnt realised that we were all for the Union and there was much rejoicing in the streets when it happened - hurrah for the Union - give be a break
or perhasp a sick bag, as reading through the piece in the Telegrapg, it is so neuseating!
Posted by: Ross, Toronto on 3:15am Tue 25 Mar 08
Proud to be North British,
sorry to have to tell you that your loving master G. Brown, blessed be his brownliness, seems to have mislaid Switzerland.
Odd that, he always loved his stays in Davos they got him away from the silly smelly common plebs back home. I'm just trying to remeber if he mentioned you by name.........
Proud to be North British,
sorry to have to tell you that your loving master G. Brown, blessed be his brownliness, seems to have mislaid Switzerland.
Odd that, he always loved his stays in Davos they got him away from the silly smelly common plebs back home. I'm just trying to remeber if he mentioned you by name.........
Posted by: Edward, Edinburgh on 3:15am Tue 25 Mar 08
From the Telegraph 'Today Jack Straw, Secretary for Justice, is consulting throughout the country on a statement of values that define British citizenship and on the case for a full British bill of rights and duties setting out rights and obligations for all citizens'
Does that mean he will be in Scotland calling in on the Scottish Government?? Wont hold my breath!
From the Telegraph 'Today Jack Straw, Secretary for Justice, is consulting throughout the country on a statement of values that define British citizenship and on the case for a full British bill of rights and duties setting out rights and obligations for all citizens'
Does that mean he will be in Scotland calling in on the Scottish Government?? Wont hold my breath!
Posted by: Ross, Toronto on 3:15am Tue 25 Mar 08
Proud to be North British,
sorry to have to tell you that your loving master G. Brown, blessed be his brownliness, seems to have mislaid Switzerland.
Odd that, he always loved his stays in Davos they got him away from the silly smelly common plebs back home. I'm just trying to remeber if he mentioned you by name.........
Proud to be North British,
sorry to have to tell you that your loving master G. Brown, blessed be his brownliness, seems to have mislaid Switzerland.
Odd that, he always loved his stays in Davos they got him away from the silly smelly common plebs back home. I'm just trying to remeber if he mentioned you by name.........
Posted by: Ross, Toronto on 3:16am Tue 25 Mar 08
Proud to be North British,
sorry to have to tell you that your loving master G. Brown, blessed be his brownliness, seems to have mislaid Switzerland.
Odd that, he always loved his stays in Davos they got him away from the silly smelly common plebs back home. I'm just trying to remeber if he mentioned you by name.........
Proud to be North British,
sorry to have to tell you that your loving master G. Brown, blessed be his brownliness, seems to have mislaid Switzerland.
Odd that, he always loved his stays in Davos they got him away from the silly smelly common plebs back home. I'm just trying to remeber if he mentioned you by name.........
Posted by: pencildick on 4:36am Tue 25 Mar 08
"with a plea for middle England to support more change in Scotland".
That says it all really about the so called Union and Broon.
Dont upset middle England, the Tory heartlands ,or else
If Scotland wants change we need middle Englands permission.
Broon has NO guts.
Having to go crawling to the Tories in England is pathetic.
Back bone in the Labour party is in short supply.
"with a plea for middle England to support more change in Scotland".
That says it all really about the so called Union and Broon.
Dont upset middle England, the Tory heartlands ,or else
If Scotland wants change we need middle Englands permission.
Broon has NO guts.
Having to go crawling to the Tories in England is pathetic.
Back bone in the Labour party is in short supply.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 4:46am Tue 25 Mar 08
No wonder the Brownies became extinct.
No wonder the Brownies became extinct.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 4:49am Tue 25 Mar 08
As the sun slowly sets on the last vestiges of the British Empire and the ship of state slowly sinks in the Thames estuary a lone quavering voice is heard emanting from ten Downing Street:
When Britain first, at heaven's command,
Arose from out the azure main,
Arose, arose, arose from out the a-azure main,
This was the charter, the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain:
Rule Britania!
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
The nations, not so blest as thee,
Must in their turn, to tyrants fall,
Must in ,must in, must in their turn, to tyrants fall,
While thou shalt flourish, shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.
(Chorus)
Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves.
Brittons never, never, never shall be slaves
As the sun slowly sets on the last vestiges of the British Empire and the ship of state slowly sinks in the Thames estuary a lone quavering voice is heard emanting from ten Downing Street:
When Britain first, at heaven's command,
Arose from out the azure main,
Arose, arose, arose from out the a-azure main,
This was the charter, the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain:
Rule Britania!
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
The nations, not so blest as thee,
Must in their turn, to tyrants fall,
Must in ,must in, must in their turn, to tyrants fall,
While thou shalt flourish, shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.
(Chorus)
Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves.
Brittons never, never, never shall be slaves
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 5:18am Tue 25 Mar 08
Even if we do get independence do we really need bloody border checks for the poor folk who have to live on the border. Gordon gordon gordon how can your people keep allowing you to make the same mistakes or am I mistaking you for a sage. Did scotland not recently have to ditch the logo the best small country in the world and was not texas a seperate nation making the usa our main competition and we know how we compete with them we give them all our knowledge and are still waiting for anything back. Bit of a poor choice of words nation."the world's most successful multi-national state" pretty much the same tired twaddle as the best small country in the world
Even if we do get independence do we really need bloody border checks for the poor folk who have to live on the border. Gordon gordon gordon how can your people keep allowing you to make the same mistakes or am I mistaking you for a sage. Did scotland not recently have to ditch the logo the best small country in the world and was not texas a seperate nation making the usa our main competition and we know how we compete with them we give them all our knowledge and are still waiting for anything back. Bit of a poor choice of words nation."the world's most successful multi-national state" pretty much the same tired twaddle as the best small country in the world
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 5:43am Tue 25 Mar 08
Oh my God, he's realy lost it this time, this guys insane !
As I pointed out yesterday, there are mwps trying to get him to step aside before the next election, and saying he should go on "health grounds"
Oh my God, he's realy lost it this time, this guys insane !
As I pointed out yesterday, there are mwps trying to get him to step aside before the next election, and saying he should go on "health grounds"
Posted by: Bungle, An ITV Storage Cupboard on 6:51am Tue 25 Mar 08
He says he started this debate over a year ago?
If I remember correctly a year ago he was brow beating poor Jack into saying that there would be no new powers for Scotland.
One to chase up Douglas? Be an interesting question to see how he handles it.
And a multi-national state? Don't see anything in constitutional law that says such a thing. It's a unitary state. One sovereignty. A multi-[block]nation[/block] one would have shared sovereignty and a division of sovereignty. That doesn't exist in the UK.
Besides where is the English nation constitutionally represented in this multi-national state?
He says he started this debate over a year ago?
If I remember correctly a year ago he was brow beating poor Jack into saying that there would be no new powers for Scotland.
One to chase up Douglas? Be an interesting question to see how he handles it.
And a multi-national state? Don't see anything in constitutional law that says such a thing. It's a unitary state. One sovereignty. A multi-nation one would have shared sovereignty and a division of sovereignty. That doesn't exist in the UK.
Besides where is the English nation constitutionally represented in this multi-national state?
Posted by: Bungle, An ITV Storage Cupboard on 6:56am Tue 25 Mar 08
He says he started this debate over a year ago?
If I remember correctly a year ago he was brow beating poor Jack into saying that there would be no new powers for Scotland.
One to chase up Douglas? Be an interesting question to see how he handles it.
And a multi-national state? Don't see anything in constitutional law that says such a thing. It's a unitary state. One sovereignty. A multi-[block]nation[/block] one would have shared sovereignty and a division of sovereignty. That doesn't exist in the UK.
Besides where is the English nation constitutionally represented in this multi-national state?
He says he started this debate over a year ago?
If I remember correctly a year ago he was brow beating poor Jack into saying that there would be no new powers for Scotland.
One to chase up Douglas? Be an interesting question to see how he handles it.
And a multi-national state? Don't see anything in constitutional law that says such a thing. It's a unitary state. One sovereignty. A multi-nation one would have shared sovereignty and a division of sovereignty. That doesn't exist in the UK.
Besides where is the English nation constitutionally represented in this multi-national state?
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 7:20am Tue 25 Mar 08
Spot on Bungle, hit all the nails on the head
Spot on Bungle, hit all the nails on the head
Posted by: David Alexander on 7:31am Tue 25 Mar 08
From MSN Encarta:
[quote]The names “United Kingdom”, “Great Britain”, and “England” are often used interchangeably.
The use of “Great Britain”, often shortened to “Britain”, to describe the whole kingdom is common and widely accepted, although strictly it does not include Northern Ireland.
However, the use of “England” to mean the “United Kingdom” is not acceptable to members of the other constituent countries, especially the Scots and the Welsh. [/quote]
:P)
From MSN Encarta:
The names “United Kingdom”, “Great Britain”, and “England” are often used interchangeably.
The use of “Great Britain”, often shortened to “Britain”, to describe the whole kingdom is common and widely accepted, although strictly it does not include Northern Ireland.
However, the use of “England” to mean the “United Kingdom” is not acceptable to members of the other constituent countries, especially the Scots and the Welsh.
:P)
Posted by: Colkitto, River Clyde on 8:01am Tue 25 Mar 08
Jackie Baillie hit out at "inflammatory" comments which have been posted on the Scottish Government's website, including the suggestion that all Union flags should be burned, and an attack on English retirees living in Scotland. She said: "They can't disguise the fact that it is being met with complete indifference by the Scottish people."
Be careful Jackie, these kind of scaremongering stories backfired spectacularly at your last conference......
Jackie Baillie hit out at "inflammatory" comments which have been posted on the Scottish Government's website, including the suggestion that all Union flags should be burned, and an attack on English retirees living in Scotland. She said: "They can't disguise the fact that it is being met with complete indifference by the Scottish people."
Be careful Jackie, these kind of scaremongering stories backfired spectacularly at your last conference......
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 8:14am Tue 25 Mar 08
THis current time in the labour party reminds me of the 1990's Tory fiasco under John Major.
If you are a unionist, the Englsnd -Scotland synergie is fastly reducing itself, and Gordon Brown has made his proclomations too little too late. However as someone who is unsure of independence, he is pushing me to wards it for the wrong reasons; I would prefer to meet independence more positively than by Gordon Brown takng the p**s.
THis current time in the labour party reminds me of the 1990's Tory fiasco under John Major.
If you are a unionist, the Englsnd -Scotland synergie is fastly reducing itself, and Gordon Brown has made his proclomations too little too late. However as someone who is unsure of independence, he is pushing me to wards it for the wrong reasons; I would prefer to meet independence more positively than by Gordon Brown takng the p**s.
Posted by: David Alexander on 8:21am Tue 25 Mar 08
Lobey
Just repeat after me;
I will be independent.
I will walk tall and proud.
I will be a success.
No more lobey dossing for you from now on!
And don't mention the B***n word again.
Lobey
Just repeat after me;
I will be independent.
I will walk tall and proud.
I will be a success.
No more lobey dossing for you from now on!
And don't mention the B***n word again.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 8:33am Tue 25 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Subrosa[/bold] said:I've searched the Telegraph website but can't find the article. Panic stations at number 10 I think :)[/quote]
Unlikely as I wouldn't imagine that it would be of interest to the retired blimps that read the torygaft.
I wouldn't trust Brown on this, as devolution hasn't really gone the way that labour wanted turning Scotland into a labour fiefdom. If anything he/they are likley to try and emasculate holyrood so it is more dependent on westminster.
Subrosa said:I've searched the Telegraph website but can't find the article. Panic stations at number 10 I think :)
Unlikely as I wouldn't imagine that it would be of interest to the retired blimps that read the torygaft.
I wouldn't trust Brown on this, as devolution hasn't really gone the way that labour wanted turning Scotland into a labour fiefdom. If anything he/they are likley to try and emasculate holyrood so it is more dependent on westminster.
Posted by: Carlung, Haddington on 8:44am Tue 25 Mar 08
If Gordon keeps poking his nose into Scottish politics, then the only way forward for the Labour party in Scotland is to declare independence from London. Only by doing this will people believe that it is acting on behalf of Scotland.
The SNP are demonstrably working for Scotland only, and take no orders from London, as a result they are riding higher and higher in the polls as the people know that they have only the people of Scotland to account to.
Go on, Wendy, be brave, break free!
If Gordon keeps poking his nose into Scottish politics, then the only way forward for the Labour party in Scotland is to declare independence from London. Only by doing this will people believe that it is acting on behalf of Scotland.
The SNP are demonstrably working for Scotland only, and take no orders from London, as a result they are riding higher and higher in the polls as the people know that they have only the people of Scotland to account to.
Go on, Wendy, be brave, break free!
Posted by: Lachlan, Stirling on 8:44am Tue 25 Mar 08
Since 1922, Devolution has been the status quo in Northern Ireland.
Even exepting the tragedy of the 30 year violent interregnum, it is now the preferred form of power-sharing government for the people of the Province.
Since 1999, Devolution has been the staus quo in Scotland and Wales.
What is there to review?
The United Kingdom is now a quasi-Federal State in everything but constitutional name! The 20th Century centralised, British State is long Gone With The Wind!
Unless certain Unionist politicians and sections of Scottish society accept the realpolitik of of this constitutional arrangement and realise
that they are the majority and that the voters did not vote for the minority SNP to separate from the UK then there can only be one inevitable outcome: secession and an independent Scottish State! Is that what these interfering politicians want?
Since 1922, Devolution has been the status quo in Northern Ireland.
Even exepting the tragedy of the 30 year violent interregnum, it is now the preferred form of power-sharing government for the people of the Province.
Since 1999, Devolution has been the staus quo in Scotland and Wales.
What is there to review?
The United Kingdom is now a quasi-Federal State in everything but constitutional name! The 20th Century centralised, British State is long Gone With The Wind!
Unless certain Unionist politicians and sections of Scottish society accept the realpolitik of of this constitutional arrangement and realise
that they are the majority and that the voters did not vote for the minority SNP to separate from the UK then there can only be one inevitable outcome: secession and an independent Scottish State! Is that what these interfering politicians want?
Posted by: exile, far away on 8:52am Tue 25 Mar 08
I think the article is just carelessly written. I imagine what Gordy is criticising is the nationalist argument that to be pro-Scottish you must be anti-Union. He's not suggesting that himself. The fact that the argument is clearly true is, of course, beside the point.
Anyway, the article says Gordy is of the opinion it's now the time to put the case for the Union. Well Gordy, we're waiting. What is so wonderful about it? Do you have any real points to make?
I think the article is just carelessly written. I imagine what Gordy is criticising is the nationalist argument that to be pro-Scottish you must be anti-Union. He's not suggesting that himself. The fact that the argument is clearly true is, of course, beside the point.
Anyway, the article says Gordy is of the opinion it's now the time to put the case for the Union. Well Gordy, we're waiting. What is so wonderful about it? Do you have any real points to make?
Posted by: stonehaven on 9:04am Tue 25 Mar 08
Brown will be the loser if he carries on this way. He is resented by a growing number south of the border and this rhetoric is making matters worse.
Brown will be the loser if he carries on this way. He is resented by a growing number south of the border and this rhetoric is making matters worse.
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 9:06am Tue 25 Mar 08
HI DA, thanks for the vote of confidence, there is no problem about your suggestions.
As Lachie and Carlung are saying, these interfering politicians can end up pushing Scotland towards independence when what it may need is more devolved powers or a more federated style of government. Hence the unionist parties should really change their position and be more Scottishcentric but can still keep their links with Westminster.
However if the Scottish people become politically isolated then Independence is inevitable. That being the case, I would want any party leading this charge to have a clear vision of the future that is deliverable and not choosing independence just to get out of the union and then thinking about a vision afterwards that is written on the back of a fag packet and not deliverable.
HI DA, thanks for the vote of confidence, there is no problem about your suggestions.
As Lachie and Carlung are saying, these interfering politicians can end up pushing Scotland towards independence when what it may need is more devolved powers or a more federated style of government. Hence the unionist parties should really change their position and be more Scottishcentric but can still keep their links with Westminster.
However if the Scottish people become politically isolated then Independence is inevitable. That being the case, I would want any party leading this charge to have a clear vision of the future that is deliverable and not choosing independence just to get out of the union and then thinking about a vision afterwards that is written on the back of a fag packet and not deliverable.
Posted by: Alan-Leven, Leven, Fife on 9:28am Tue 25 Mar 08
Does anyone seriously believe that, once independent, Scotland will up anchor and sail away? As far as I can see, so far, the plan is to continue good working relationships where they exist with other countries in Britain and to seek to develop new ones with countries outside of Britain - as a sovereign nation. Alec Salmond doesn't have to spoil for a fight with Westminster, they're falling over themselves to push us into a stark choice, they are threatening to cut the relationship, not the SNP. Also, I am old enough to remember that Scotland had a tory Government imposed although not a single tory MP was voted in here, something we might well suffer again when Broon gets his mairchin orders!
Does anyone seriously believe that, once independent, Scotland will up anchor and sail away? As far as I can see, so far, the plan is to continue good working relationships where they exist with other countries in Britain and to seek to develop new ones with countries outside of Britain - as a sovereign nation. Alec Salmond doesn't have to spoil for a fight with Westminster, they're falling over themselves to push us into a stark choice, they are threatening to cut the relationship, not the SNP. Also, I am old enough to remember that Scotland had a tory Government imposed although not a single tory MP was voted in here, something we might well suffer again when Broon gets his mairchin orders!
Posted by: Sam, somewhereelse on 9:33am Tue 25 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote:
"Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union." Do my eyes deceive me? Does this mean that to be anti-Scottish is the same as pro-Union? Keystone cops. Salmond must be sleeping well in his kip these days. Not an iota of opposition from anywhere. Good news for independence![/quote] Does this mean to be pro-union is the same as anti-Scottish?
Alex Porter wrote:
"Mr Brown has renewed his attack on Scottish nationalism arguing that to be pro-Scottish, you must be anti-Union." Do my eyes deceive me? Does this mean that to be anti-Scottish is the same as pro-Union? Keystone cops. Salmond must be sleeping well in his kip these days. Not an iota of opposition from anywhere. Good news for independence!
Does this mean to be pro-union is the same as anti-Scottish?
Posted by: David Alexander on 9:34am Tue 25 Mar 08
Lobey
You are absolutely correct.
I have every confidence though, that the SNP are more than capable of presenting the arguments and following them through.
Having worked regularily in Norway, I have seen what properly managed oil funds can achieve.
How people have put up with the way that Scotland has been managed over the years is completely beyond me.
[italic]Onwards and upwards with independence![/italic]
Lobey
You are absolutely correct.
I have every confidence though, that the SNP are more than capable of presenting the arguments and following them through.
Having worked regularily in Norway, I have seen what properly managed oil funds can achieve.
How people have put up with the way that Scotland has been managed over the years is completely beyond me.
Onwards and upwards with independence!
Posted by: martin, edinburgh on 9:36am Tue 25 Mar 08
I hope this guy wins his case for shetland independence -->
http://news.bbc.co.u
k/1/hi/scotland/nort
h_east/7311967.stm
the fascist occupying saltire has waved over the shetlands and the scottish part of the border region for too long!
Freedom for all, not just for the tartan brigade!
I hope this guy wins his case for shetland independence -->
http://news.bbc.co.u
k/1/hi/scotland/nort
h_east/7311967.stm
the fascist occupying saltire has waved over the shetlands and the scottish part of the border region for too long!
Freedom for all, not just for the tartan brigade!
Posted by: David Alexander on 9:42am Tue 25 Mar 08
Martin
And your point is?
Martin
And your point is?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:47am Tue 25 Mar 08
Martin the Red Robin[quote]Freedom for all, not just for the tartan brigade![/quote] Another forum spoiler from the England forever brigade.
Martin the Red Robin
Freedom for all, not just for the tartan brigade!
Another forum spoiler from the England forever brigade.
Posted by: Alan-Leven, Leven, Fife on 9:49am Tue 25 Mar 08
I think Matin's point is well made and certainly made me think. How would we react if, in an independent Scotland, one or more regions demanded their independence?
I think Matin's point is well made and certainly made me think. How would we react if, in an independent Scotland, one or more regions demanded their independence?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:51am Tue 25 Mar 08
Colkitto Says Ditto[quote]Jackie Baillie hit out at "inflammatory" comments[/quote] Loud mouthed Glaswegian Labour MSPs remind me of Glasgow's architectural rejuvination - absolutely no master plan, no vision. It's all short-term expediency.
Colkitto Says Ditto
Jackie Baillie hit out at "inflammatory" comments
Loud mouthed Glaswegian Labour MSPs remind me of Glasgow's architectural rejuvination - absolutely no master plan, no vision. It's all short-term expediency.
Posted by: martin, edinburgh on 9:51am Tue 25 Mar 08
Independence is recursive
You cannot ask for it yourself and deny it to others if they wish it
Anything else is repression
Independence is recursive
You cannot ask for it yourself and deny it to others if they wish it
Anything else is repression
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:53am Tue 25 Mar 08
Alan Leven Bread[quote]How would we react if, in an independent Scotland, one or more regions demanded their independence?[/quote] Oh, please debate with some seriousness.
If you feel that way go and make a remake of [italic]Passport To Pimlico.[/italic]
Alan Leven Bread
How would we react if, in an independent Scotland, one or more regions demanded their independence?
Oh, please debate with some seriousness.
If you feel that way go and make a remake of
Passport To Pimlico.