Civilians to take on police jobs as radical test begins
Thousands of crimes including housebreaking, car theft and vandalism are to be investigated by specially trained civilian staff under a radical new scheme being piloted in one Scottish town.
Under a £250,000 initiative funded by the Scottish Government, door-to-door inquiries, interviews and crime reports are to be carried out by investigative assistants who will be overseen by police officers.
The pilot, which will begin on April 1 in Falkirk, will free up some 10% of frontline officers and will run for 12 months, at the end of which it is expected to be rolled out across the force and potentially across the country.
The new Priority Crime Unit will deal with level three and four crimes including fireraising and housebreaking. In the Falkirk area last year there were more than 7000 crimes in these two categories. The new unit is expected to investigate at least half of these over the coming 12 months.
Under the scheme, when members of the public phone to report crimes they will be logged and handled by experienced police officers who will decide how to divide cases between civilians and police officers.
"We have identified that when you are investigating these crimes around 65% of the work does not require the powers of a police officer," said Andrew Cameron, Chief Constable of Central Scotland Police.
"It is not just about building up more capacity by taking away the administrative chores but it is about trying to make sure that the skills sets that we have are used to their full potential.
"This is a first in Scotland. If other chief constables can be persuaded, we believe this will lead to more community officers on the frontline and a much better quality of service to victims.
"The eight chief constables are totally signed up to the idea that we need to be innovative and creative in terms of the fact that we are facing increasing levels of demand and the same level of budget.
"We cannot continue to deliver operational policing in the way we are doing at the moment. We need to re-think what we actually expect of our officers."
Other forces, such as Tayside, are also looking at ways to streamline their forces and create more civilian posts.
As part of its wider modernisation programme, Central
Scotland has also identified a further 120 positions across the force which could benefit from civilianisation.
The unit will work on every level of the investigation, including conducting interviews, door-to-door inquiries and drafting reports for the procurators-fiscal.
It will be run by a sergeant who will be assisted by four detective constables, eight civilian assistant investigators and two civilian co-ordinators.
The new investigators have already undergone an intensive
three-week training programme which included interview skills, lessons on Scots law and police driving.
At least two of the civilian investigators, who will be paid about £22,000 a year, but will not be in uniform, were formerly police officers.
Joe Grant, general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, said: "We are keen to ensure that this does not dumb down the investigative powers of police officers, but the force has reassured us that these people will be dealing with specific crimes with set
parameters.
"We do not want to end up de-skilling police officers but we are keen for this sort of pilot to work and keen that it frees up frontline policing."
Bill Aitken, the Tory justice spokesman and convener of the Justice Committee, said the committee will be visiting the pilot next month.
"We want to look at this to see how frontline police resources can be released with the use of civilianisation," he said. "The obvious downside is that certain work can only be done by a sworn police officer, but I will be interested to see how this works."
Pauline McNeill, Labour's justice spokeswoman, said she was seriously concerned about the move.
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Posted by: tris, scotland on 12:38am Sat 22 Mar 08
Sounds like a plan.
Posted by: Astonished, Inverclyde on 12:51am Sat 22 Mar 08
Pauline McNeill , is merely awaiting notification of her position from London ?
Anyone disagree ?
P.S. Is she doing anything about the electoral commission whitewash of Wendy, apart from the rumoured undercover backstabbing ?
Pauline McNeill , is merely awaiting notification of her position from London ?
Anyone disagree ?
P.S. Is she doing anything about the electoral commission whitewash of Wendy, apart from the rumoured undercover backstabbing ?
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 1:06am Sat 22 Mar 08
Personally, I think we need a root and branch revue of police in Scotland.
Do we need 8 forces? maybe 4 or 3 or 2 or one national force?
We should also examine recruitment and rank structure. I believe the police fail to attract good candidates because of their policy of starting everyone as a PC. Compare and contrast with army. High flying future generals don't start as squaddies.
Modern policing needs bright people; the police should be recruiting a higher %age of graduates.
Personally, I think we need a root and branch revue of police in Scotland.
Do we need 8 forces? maybe 4 or 3 or 2 or one national force?
We should also examine recruitment and rank structure. I believe the police fail to attract good candidates because of their policy of starting everyone as a PC. Compare and contrast with army. High flying future generals don't start as squaddies.
Modern policing needs bright people; the police should be recruiting a higher %age of graduates.
Posted by: subrosa on 1:07am Sat 22 Mar 08
Another innovation. No standing still for this government, well done.
Another innovation. No standing still for this government, well done.
Posted by: stevie, glasgow on 1:25am Sat 22 Mar 08
"CIVILIANISATION" .
Posted by: oldmack, Scotland on 1:57am Sat 22 Mar 08
“CIVILIANISATION"
A well Stevie that’s another job you can’t get, it requires intelligence.
“CIVILIANISATION"
A well Stevie that’s another job you can’t get, it requires intelligence.
Posted by: stevie, glasgow on 2:18am Sat 22 Mar 08
Scotsmack, Nice to hear from you. Bellshillians will love this caper,. What syle of uniforms will this mob have ?. I suppose the style will have to conform to the usual mode of dress for the district. For Bellshill it will be a toss up for the white shellsuit look or the flute band look.
Scotsmack, Nice to hear from you. Bellshillians will love this caper,. What syle of uniforms will this mob have ?. I suppose the style will have to conform to the usual mode of dress for the district. For Bellshill it will be a toss up for the white shellsuit look or the flute band look.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 2:19am Sat 22 Mar 08
Get the paperwork in now Stevie, you'll be a shoe in. Get a Brown envelope ready and your a made man.
Talking about Brown you can bet this is another one of the SNP ideas he will steal. No boubt he hasnae got a clue, never mind an idea he didnt steal off somebody else.
Get the paperwork in now Stevie, you'll be a shoe in. Get a Brown envelope ready and your a made man.
Talking about Brown you can bet this is another one of the SNP ideas he will steal. No boubt he hasnae got a clue, never mind an idea he didnt steal off somebody else.
Posted by: stevie, glasgow on 2:37am Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Mike[/bold] wrote:
Get the paperwork in now Stevie, you'll be a shoe in. Get a Brown envelope ready and your a made man.
Talking about Brown you can bet this is another one of the SNP ideas he will steal. No boubt he hasnae got a clue, never mind an idea he didnt steal off somebody else.[/quote] Come of it .This is straight out of the Masons handbook.Burnt out and pensioned off policemen getting another bite at the cherry.
Mike wrote:
Get the paperwork in now Stevie, you'll be a shoe in. Get a Brown envelope ready and your a made man.
Talking about Brown you can bet this is another one of the SNP ideas he will steal. No boubt he hasnae got a clue, never mind an idea he didnt steal off somebody else.
Come of it .This is straight out of the Masons handbook.Burnt out and pensioned off policemen getting another bite at the cherry.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 5:39am Sat 22 Mar 08
Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence
Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence
Posted by: -agw, argyll on 6:43am Sat 22 Mar 08
At what stage does is become clear that investigation by Police or civilian teams is a Post Code ballot or an AB/CD Social grouping selection?
It could never been anything other.
If Mr. and Mrs Cannybody and Mr. and Mrs. Councillor have same neighbourhood, same-day, break-ins which one do you think gets the full Police investigation? That's Spot-On! Not the Cannybodys. The magic phrase in this is "half" will be investigated by. Is this a potentially new social demarcation? "[italic]Oh! Richard! We can hold our heads high. The police are investigating the theft of our coy carp. Mrs. Cannybody's cat poisoning only rates one of those civilian snoops."[/italic]
At what stage does is become clear that investigation by Police or civilian teams is a Post Code ballot or an AB/CD Social grouping selection?
It could never been anything other.
If Mr. and Mrs Cannybody and Mr. and Mrs. Councillor have same neighbourhood, same-day, break-ins which one do you think gets the full Police investigation? That's Spot-On! Not the Cannybodys. The magic phrase in this is "half" will be investigated by. Is this a potentially new social demarcation? "
Oh! Richard! We can hold our heads high. The police are investigating the theft of our coy carp. Mrs. Cannybody's cat poisoning only rates one of those civilian snoops." Posted by: John McCall on 7:59am Sat 22 Mar 08
Pauline McNeill,the answers in the name.[bold]bold[/bold] NUMTY
Pauline McNeill,the answers in the name. NUMTY
Posted by: genesis, larbert on 8:04am Sat 22 Mar 08
Why does it require 5 police officers and 2 civilian managers to oversee 8 employees
Why are former police officers, on an enviable pension, re-employed and further remunerated by the same employer? Jobs for the boys?
Why does it require 5 police officers and 2 civilian managers to oversee 8 employees
Why are former police officers, on an enviable pension, re-employed and further remunerated by the same employer? Jobs for the boys?
Posted by: Lachlan, Stirling on 8:23am Sat 22 Mar 08
Scotland is demographically and geographically suited to having a national polis force? Anyone who has travelled widely in Europe will find that Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, Denmark and similar
sized countries have one force. Even large countries like France and Germany have one polis force. Is there a reason for Scotland, and England and Wales, to have so many different ones?
Scotland is demographically and geographically suited to having a national polis force? Anyone who has travelled widely in Europe will find that Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, Denmark and similar
sized countries have one force. Even large countries like France and Germany have one polis force. Is there a reason for Scotland, and England and Wales, to have so many different ones?
Posted by: Harry, Bishopbriggs on 9:26am Sat 22 Mar 08
It's getting dafter by the day. If the money is available then it should be spent on recruiting and training first class police officers who all work under the one Police management structure in Scotland.
Door to door enquiries is where the real police need to be, keeping their finger on the pulse as they say.
The civilians should be in the office inputing the data and all the other donkey work.
It's getting dafter by the day. If the money is available then it should be spent on recruiting and training first class police officers who all work under the one Police management structure in Scotland.
Door to door enquiries is where the real police need to be, keeping their finger on the pulse as they say.
The civilians should be in the office inputing the data and all the other donkey work.
Posted by: chipshoponmyshoulder, glasgow on 10:10am Sat 22 Mar 08
Firstly, and partly in reply to those remarks by Genesis, can I say I am not surprised someone has brought up the usual police pension myth as is now the norm on this forum when police matters are being discussed. This issue is not entirely unrelated to the subject matter above.
Police officers (who joined up until a few years ago) pay 11.5% of their wages to their pension throughout 30 years service. The pension is, by some standards, 'enviable' but to spend 30 years of your working life exempt from most of the Health and Safety legislation, European working time directives, employment rights, being disallowed from joining a political party, being subject to the draconian discipline regulations of your employer not just whilst at work but off duty wherever you are, working in an environment where a simple mistake or bad operational decision could see you facing a gargantuan law suit or prison sentence for murder etc whilst the vast majority of the public dislike you and think they know how to do your job better than you because they have read about it or watched it on TV or read the papers or comment on 'The Herald' forum a lot. Not to mention the fact you can get every bodily fluid known to man and woman spat on you, fired at you, smeared on you whilst you and your family are subjected to verbal abuse and your health debilitates because of the stress of all of the above and the creeping sense of bitterness and cynicism which engulfs you throughout your 30 years - I think make the pension a bit less 'enviable' and a bit more DESERVED.
And before the 'if you don't like it you know what to do' brigade jump on me, it is ONLY because of the pension that cops aren't leaving this job in their droves.
What happens when these powerless investigators go doing door to door in some of Glasgow's horriblest schemes and get assaulted or witness a serious crime or come across someone wanted for serious crime who they can't arrest? What happens when witnesses wilfully tell them lies and attempt to pervert the course of justice? (and they will).
In the meantime all the armchair criminologists, sociologists, crime thriller junkies and political intellectuals can comment all they like over their Saturday morning coffee but out their in the real world cops all over Scotland are UTTERLY fed up from the bottom to the top of the service, across all divisions and departments. There are BAD PEOPLE out there who tell lies and do nasty things.
This idea has been conceived in complete ignorance and will fail. It may well be hailed a success and be rolled out but in time it will fail.
[bold]
LET THE POLICE POLICE
[/bold]
Firstly, and partly in reply to those remarks by Genesis, can I say I am not surprised someone has brought up the usual police pension myth as is now the norm on this forum when police matters are being discussed. This issue is not entirely unrelated to the subject matter above.
Police officers (who joined up until a few years ago) pay 11.5% of their wages to their pension throughout 30 years service. The pension is, by some standards, 'enviable' but to spend 30 years of your working life exempt from most of the Health and Safety legislation, European working time directives, employment rights, being disallowed from joining a political party, being subject to the draconian discipline regulations of your employer not just whilst at work but off duty wherever you are, working in an environment where a simple mistake or bad operational decision could see you facing a gargantuan law suit or prison sentence for murder etc whilst the vast majority of the public dislike you and think they know how to do your job better than you because they have read about it or watched it on TV or read the papers or comment on 'The Herald' forum a lot. Not to mention the fact you can get every bodily fluid known to man and woman spat on you, fired at you, smeared on you whilst you and your family are subjected to verbal abuse and your health debilitates because of the stress of all of the above and the creeping sense of bitterness and cynicism which engulfs you throughout your 30 years - I think make the pension a bit less 'enviable' and a bit more DESERVED.
And before the 'if you don't like it you know what to do' brigade jump on me, it is ONLY because of the pension that cops aren't leaving this job in their droves.
What happens when these powerless investigators go doing door to door in some of Glasgow's horriblest schemes and get assaulted or witness a serious crime or come across someone wanted for serious crime who they can't arrest? What happens when witnesses wilfully tell them lies and attempt to pervert the course of justice? (and they will).
In the meantime all the armchair criminologists, sociologists, crime thriller junkies and political intellectuals can comment all they like over their Saturday morning coffee but out their in the real world cops all over Scotland are UTTERLY fed up from the bottom to the top of the service, across all divisions and departments. There are BAD PEOPLE out there who tell lies and do nasty things.
This idea has been conceived in complete ignorance and will fail. It may well be hailed a success and be rolled out but in time it will fail.
LET THE POLICE POLICE
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:13am Sat 22 Mar 08
This makes sense. Its not new; we've had traffic wardens and civilian office staff for a long time.
This initiative is about getting more for our money as policeman have become too expensive.
Perhaps we could revue number of senior officers too. I believe Strathclyde are looking at reducing number of Superintendents.
This makes sense. Its not new; we've had traffic wardens and civilian office staff for a long time.
This initiative is about getting more for our money as policeman have become too expensive.
Perhaps we could revue number of senior officers too. I believe Strathclyde are looking at reducing number of Superintendents.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:20am Sat 22 Mar 08
I recently applied for a licence to run a lottery. A uniformed officer came to see me. Does that make sense? Could that task not be undertaken by a civilian?
We live in a changing world.
Regarding diatribe above, can I suggest that the police are pretty good at closing ranks to protect one of their own. The chaps who got it wrong and shot people in error have neither been charged or discipined to my knowledge.
Despite horrendous incompetence which would have got him sacked in private sector, Sir Ian Blair is still in post?
I recently applied for a licence to run a lottery. A uniformed officer came to see me. Does that make sense? Could that task not be undertaken by a civilian?
We live in a changing world.
Regarding diatribe above, can I suggest that the police are pretty good at closing ranks to protect one of their own. The chaps who got it wrong and shot people in error have neither been charged or discipined to my knowledge.
Despite horrendous incompetence which would have got him sacked in private sector, Sir Ian Blair is still in post?
Posted by: jim, London on 10:27am Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Strathturret[/bold] wrote:
I recently applied for a licence to run a lottery. A uniformed officer came to see me. Does that make sense? Could that task not be undertaken by a civilian? We live in a changing world. Regarding diatribe above, can I suggest that the police are pretty good at closing ranks to protect one of their own. The chaps who got it wrong and shot people in error have neither been charged or discipined to my knowledge. Despite horrendous incompetence which would have got him sacked in private sector, Sir Ian Blair is still in post?[/quote] I agree.
I believe radical action is required and I and many of my colleagues, friends and neighbours have lost confidence in the Police. They seem to spend most of their time hassling people on minor offences like no fog lights on, domestic disputes (non violent), lost property, dog poo issues, etc rather than catching real criminals involved in organised crime and drugs.
I concur that they should be relieved of admin and minor duties that can be done by others so that they can focus on real investigative work.
I know times change but since returning to the West of Scotland I feel that the effectiveness of the Scottish Police has reduced and they have definately lost the credibility (and even support) of many.
Something must be done to improve this situation.
Strathturret wrote:
I recently applied for a licence to run a lottery. A uniformed officer came to see me. Does that make sense? Could that task not be undertaken by a civilian? We live in a changing world. Regarding diatribe above, can I suggest that the police are pretty good at closing ranks to protect one of their own. The chaps who got it wrong and shot people in error have neither been charged or discipined to my knowledge. Despite horrendous incompetence which would have got him sacked in private sector, Sir Ian Blair is still in post?
I agree.
I believe radical action is required and I and many of my colleagues, friends and neighbours have lost confidence in the Police. They seem to spend most of their time hassling people on minor offences like no fog lights on, domestic disputes (non violent), lost property, dog poo issues, etc rather than catching real criminals involved in organised crime and drugs.
I concur that they should be relieved of admin and minor duties that can be done by others so that they can focus on real investigative work.
I know times change but since returning to the West of Scotland I feel that the effectiveness of the Scottish Police has reduced and they have definately lost the credibility (and even support) of many.
Something must be done to improve this situation.
Posted by: maragdubh, lewis on 10:48am Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]genesis[/bold] wrote:
Why does it require 5 police officers and 2 civilian managers to oversee 8 employees Why are former police officers, on an enviable pension, re-employed and further remunerated by the same employer? Jobs for the boys?[/quote] Why always the negative. it's no wonder the best leave for foreign parts. Pack your bags st kilda needs you.
genesis wrote:
Why does it require 5 police officers and 2 civilian managers to oversee 8 employees Why are former police officers, on an enviable pension, re-employed and further remunerated by the same employer? Jobs for the boys?
Why always the negative. it's no wonder the best leave for foreign parts. Pack your bags st kilda needs you.
Posted by: Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 10:55am Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Lachlan[/bold] wrote:
Scotland is demographically and geographically suited to having a national polis force? Anyone who has travelled widely in Europe will find that Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, Denmark and similar sized countries have one force. Even large countries like France and Germany have one polis force. Is there a reason for Scotland, and England and Wales, to have so many different ones? [/quote] Yes, there is. So we can have 8 chief constables instead of 1. Then we have 85 million senior assistant chiefs, 196 million assistant chiefs all costing you and I a fortune. See :o) but watch and not hang your self out to dry by questioning the polis, or they WILL GET YOU.
Lachlan wrote:
Scotland is demographically and geographically suited to having a national polis force? Anyone who has travelled widely in Europe will find that Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, Denmark and similar sized countries have one force. Even large countries like France and Germany have one polis force. Is there a reason for Scotland, and England and Wales, to have so many different ones?
Yes, there is. So we can have 8 chief constables instead of 1. Then we have 85 million senior assistant chiefs, 196 million assistant chiefs all costing you and I a fortune. See :o) but watch and not hang your self out to dry by questioning the polis, or they WILL GET YOU.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 11:05am Sat 22 Mar 08
All sounds common sense, more power to yer elbow!
Lets see how the pilot works out, if this free's up time for Police Officers to deal with catching the criminals it can only be a good thing.
All sounds common sense, more power to yer elbow!
Lets see how the pilot works out, if this free's up time for Police Officers to deal with catching the criminals it can only be a good thing.
Posted by: John Brown, Glasgow on 1:41pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Why not disband the police altogether. What do they do? They are not there to investigate crimes, that is the role of the Procurator Fiscal's office. They will not attend break ins, telling you to take photographs "in case they ever come across those responsible". They are a joke, whose only roll in society seems to be an attack on drivers. Meanwhile their costs sky rocket. Get rid of these leeches on society.
Why not disband the police altogether. What do they do? They are not there to investigate crimes, that is the role of the Procurator Fiscal's office. They will not attend break ins, telling you to take photographs "in case they ever come across those responsible". They are a joke, whose only roll in society seems to be an attack on drivers. Meanwhile their costs sky rocket. Get rid of these leeches on society.
Posted by: Joe McT, BlairsFantasyIsland on 1:41pm Sat 22 Mar 08
That's just great.
Get some Civilians out there doing the "real" work while the Police are safely back in the Polis Station filing in endless forms.
That's just great.
Get some Civilians out there doing the "real" work while the Police are safely back in the Polis Station filing in endless forms.
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 2:23pm Sat 22 Mar 08
'chipsonmyshoulder 10.10' "let the police police" HA!
You're obviously a copper; can't get enough pushing the public around in town you've got to go cyberbully?
Stop believing your own Tulliallen indoctrinated drivel; nobody in Scotland believes the cops anymore. Your all just a bunch of 'establishment-led livestockers', in an other phrase, lick-spittles for angiolini and the engerlish crown.
Everybody in Scotland now knows the cops are too much. Nowhere else in the 1st world countries do the public institutions abuse the public with such ferocity like the scottish police/crown prosecutio/ lordadvocate do. Just look at the stupidity of 'minor' charges pushing Scots citizens into prison, and bullying tactics like psycho-charges on gail sheridan.
All scottish cops are pathetic bully's that are likely to receive a riot because of their obnoxious bullying. Nobody in Scotland likes the cops.
'chipsonmyshoulder 10.10' "let the police police" HA!
You're obviously a copper; can't get enough pushing the public around in town you've got to go cyberbully?
Stop believing your own Tulliallen indoctrinated drivel; nobody in Scotland believes the cops anymore. Your all just a bunch of 'establishment-led livestockers', in an other phrase, lick-spittles for angiolini and the engerlish crown.
Everybody in Scotland now knows the cops are too much. Nowhere else in the 1st world countries do the public institutions abuse the public with such ferocity like the scottish police/crown prosecutio/ lordadvocate do. Just look at the stupidity of 'minor' charges pushing Scots citizens into prison, and bullying tactics like psycho-charges on gail sheridan.
All scottish cops are pathetic bully's that are likely to receive a riot because of their obnoxious bullying. Nobody in Scotland likes the cops.
Posted by: jim on 2:30pm Sat 22 Mar 08
If there was a Scots police force .HQ would have to be Glasgow.
Tam o shanters ?Glengarry maybe?Dark green tartan troos.Unique or what.
If there was a Scots police force .HQ would have to be Glasgow.
Tam o shanters ?Glengarry maybe?Dark green tartan troos.Unique or what.
Posted by: yokel, The Edge on 2:33pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Meanwhile 50 police officers are availble to raid a Highland Estate at the whim of their neighbours the RSPB.
Meanwhile 50 police officers are availble to raid a Highland Estate at the whim of their neighbours the RSPB.
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 2:34pm Sat 22 Mar 08
As far as the article goes, 'civilians on the beat'; it's just another way of introducing the 'establishment-led social design' policy by the engerlish crown.
Let me expalin. In the 1980's there was no power the police, or even sheriff's officers (baliffs/ civilians with 'establishment' mandate) had to come and break down your door if a database said you didn't have a tv license. There was no power the police had to 'stop and search' Scots citizens in cars or in the streets. There was no power the police had to confiscate personal property unless it was a gun. There was no powers the police had to arrest you on suspicion you 'were about to commit a crime'. All these examples are just the tip of the ice-berg of the way the police have eroded Scottish public civil rights. These police must be stopped. The powers they have MUST be revoked and all public institutions in Scotland must be audited for fiscal and financial audits.
We must get angiolini and the rest of the so-called lords out of Scotland and back to our unicamarel parliament where we will all be represented better.
As far as the article goes, 'civilians on the beat'; it's just another way of introducing the 'establishment-led social design' policy by the engerlish crown.
Let me expalin. In the 1980's there was no power the police, or even sheriff's officers (baliffs/ civilians with 'establishment' mandate) had to come and break down your door if a database said you didn't have a tv license. There was no power the police had to 'stop and search' Scots citizens in cars or in the streets. There was no power the police had to confiscate personal property unless it was a gun. There was no powers the police had to arrest you on suspicion you 'were about to commit a crime'. All these examples are just the tip of the ice-berg of the way the police have eroded Scottish public civil rights. These police must be stopped. The powers they have MUST be revoked and all public institutions in Scotland must be audited for fiscal and financial audits.
We must get angiolini and the rest of the so-called lords out of Scotland and back to our unicamarel parliament where we will all be represented better.
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 2:58pm Sat 22 Mar 08
The best way to redress the 'institutionalising of the public by public institutions' is to stop cooperating with the police. Every time you are a witness for the police they take your 'particulars', all your personal information and trawl through your background, put it on their computer database to see if you even remotely are linked to anyone that they feel they can charge, bully, illicit more information from; it's called 'intelligence-led policing'. Look what angiolini (angiolini says she didn't have anything to do with this, but her record speaks for itself; Lockerbie files? Fraser cover-up? dundee pf going free? cutting deals with MacAskill on rape policy for him to get access to the McKee files and inquiry), and the coppers have done to Gial Sheridan; they put charges on her knowing it would cause anxiety, stress, and strain. They are using our public money to beat-down anyone that dares to stand up to them. Also, DO NOT BUY THE SCOTSMAN NEWSPAPER; it is 'establishment' propoganda. Andrew Neill (the bloke that has the Daily Politics show), owns this paper. He is alays 'lunching' with Bean-Broon at #10. These 'scots elites' are the same elites that sold our country down to the engerlish 300 years ago. And don't give any credence to what the 'establishmewnt' says. That is, angiolini, the crown prosecution ofice, the procurator fiscals, the police chiefs, the police, and even some NUNaziLab controlled local authorities; they all have these 'establishment' peoples on their committies and advisory committies. These committees etc exist to perpetuate the status qou/establishment beaurocracy and bullying.
The only way to get these gits out of influential positions in Scotland is to vote for your Scottish government.
Vote SNP for a Better, Fairer Independent Scotland.
The best way to redress the 'institutionalising of the public by public institutions' is to stop cooperating with the police. Every time you are a witness for the police they take your 'particulars', all your personal information and trawl through your background, put it on their computer database to see if you even remotely are linked to anyone that they feel they can charge, bully, illicit more information from; it's called 'intelligence-led policing'. Look what angiolini (angiolini says she didn't have anything to do with this, but her record speaks for itself; Lockerbie files? Fraser cover-up? dundee pf going free? cutting deals with MacAskill on rape policy for him to get access to the McKee files and inquiry), and the coppers have done to Gial Sheridan; they put charges on her knowing it would cause anxiety, stress, and strain. They are using our public money to beat-down anyone that dares to stand up to them. Also, DO NOT BUY THE SCOTSMAN NEWSPAPER; it is 'establishment' propoganda. Andrew Neill (the bloke that has the Daily Politics show), owns this paper. He is alays 'lunching' with Bean-Broon at #10. These 'scots elites' are the same elites that sold our country down to the engerlish 300 years ago. And don't give any credence to what the 'establishmewnt' says. That is, angiolini, the crown prosecution ofice, the procurator fiscals, the police chiefs, the police, and even some NUNaziLab controlled local authorities; they all have these 'establishment' peoples on their committies and advisory committies. These committees etc exist to perpetuate the status qou/establishment beaurocracy and bullying.
The only way to get these gits out of influential positions in Scotland is to vote for your Scottish government.
Vote SNP for a Better, Fairer Independent Scotland.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 3:39pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Donald Anderson[/bold] wrote:
Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence [/quote] They've also removed the Comments section on the Gail Sheridan story. I logged a comment just after midnight but it ain't there anymore. What are they afraid of?
Donald Anderson wrote:
Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence
They've also removed the Comments section on the Gail Sheridan story. I logged a comment just after midnight but it ain't there anymore. What are they afraid of?
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 4:24pm Sat 22 Mar 08
I look forward to the day when a civillian is killed doing the job of the police. I think smeaton has gone to the heid of the daft politicians.
I look forward to the day when a civillian is killed doing the job of the police. I think smeaton has gone to the heid of the daft politicians.
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 4:25pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Vote snp for a stupider scotland full of dumb piggy wannabes
Vote snp for a stupider scotland full of dumb piggy wannabes
Posted by: tris, scotland on 4:35pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Duns Scotus[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Donald Anderson[/bold] wrote: Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence [/quote] They've also removed the Comments section on the Gail Sheridan story. I logged a comment just after midnight but it ain't there anymore. What are they afraid of?[/quote] Maybe they are afraid someone (you?) will tell it like it is.......
Couldn't be having that now, could we?
jonny bond.... you [bold]look forward to the day a civilian is killed[/bold] .... what kind of warped mind do you have?
Duns Scotus wrote:
Donald Anderson wrote: Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence
They've also removed the Comments section on the Gail Sheridan story. I logged a comment just after midnight but it ain't there anymore. What are they afraid of?
Maybe they are afraid someone (you?) will tell it like it is.......
Couldn't be having that now, could we?
jonny bond.... you
look forward to the day a civilian is killed .... what kind of warped mind do you have?
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 4:41pm Sat 22 Mar 08
'jonny',? Tight; depending if you use it more than once.
'jonny',? Tight; depending if you use it more than once.
Posted by: RDL on 4:50pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Jonny Bond [bold][quote]I look forward to the day a civilian is killed[/quote] [/bold]
You sicken me!
Jonny Bond
I look forward to the day a civilian is killed
You sicken me!
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 6:04pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[bold]tris[/bold] , my modest post was simply an opening salvo. I was ready to get steamed in. It'll be interesting to see how they report the court case next week.
tris , my modest post was simply an opening salvo. I was ready to get steamed in. It'll be interesting to see how they report the court case next week.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 6:10pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]jonny bond[/bold] wrote:
I look forward to the day when a civillian is killed doing the job of the police. I think smeaton has gone to the heid of the daft politicians.[/quote]
That's possibly the stupidest post I have ever read.....you are an idiot.
jonny bond wrote:
I look forward to the day when a civillian is killed doing the job of the police. I think smeaton has gone to the heid of the daft politicians.
That's possibly the stupidest post I have ever read.....you are an idiot.
Posted by: gordon of dunoon, Alliston, Ontario, Canada on 7:25pm Sat 22 Mar 08
I have just taken the time, I cannot believe I have this much idle time on my hands, to read all 37 posts.
You all sound so angry, frustrated and some bordering on being certifiable.
Can you not just step back and think for a moment as to how you read to others.
Those of you are touting an SNP led independent country sound as if you are the remnants of 1911 revolution. Wake up and get real.
You have obviously got issues but this kind of content on a network of a leading newspaper will never get you to where you want to go, to solve the issues.
As for the actual proposal of civilian investigators you have all given very good reasons for the project to experience real difficulties. It is after all on a "test project" and it will surely not be located in the leading Glasgow or Edinburgh crime areas.
In the final analysis this is another step along the conservative right thinkers on privatization of law and order. Some contractor will do the job for less money, less salary and benefits.
Something like the "private armies" roaming the streets of Iraq.
It will be interesting to see how this proposal rolls out and how soon the contractors take to move in.
I have just taken the time, I cannot believe I have this much idle time on my hands, to read all 37 posts.
You all sound so angry, frustrated and some bordering on being certifiable.
Can you not just step back and think for a moment as to how you read to others.
Those of you are touting an SNP led independent country sound as if you are the remnants of 1911 revolution. Wake up and get real.
You have obviously got issues but this kind of content on a network of a leading newspaper will never get you to where you want to go, to solve the issues.
As for the actual proposal of civilian investigators you have all given very good reasons for the project to experience real difficulties. It is after all on a "test project" and it will surely not be located in the leading Glasgow or Edinburgh crime areas.
In the final analysis this is another step along the conservative right thinkers on privatization of law and order. Some contractor will do the job for less money, less salary and benefits.
Something like the "private armies" roaming the streets of Iraq.
It will be interesting to see how this proposal rolls out and how soon the contractors take to move in.
Posted by: stevie, glasgow on 7:33pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]jonny bond[/bold] wrote:
I look forward to the day when a civillian is killed doing the job of the police. I think smeaton has gone to the heid of the daft politicians.[/quote] This is a wind up,Nobody ,not even Wullie would stoop this low ,if it's not a wind up ,then you need to seek help.
jonny bond wrote:
I look forward to the day when a civillian is killed doing the job of the police. I think smeaton has gone to the heid of the daft politicians.
This is a wind up,Nobody ,not even Wullie would stoop this low ,if it's not a wind up ,then you need to seek help.
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 10:04pm Sat 22 Mar 08
It is a fact that while this policy might work in certain areas(leafy suburbs) I look for anybody stupid enough to believe it will work everywhere. I made the comment quite rightly to point out that in some parts of the fair city of glasgow this rediculous policy would lead to exactly the outcome I predict. Bear in mind we live in a city that a guy knifed his mate because he said laudrup was more skillful than gazza. So well done stevie wardog and rdl you have proven the idoicy of posters of snp conviction I would happily challenge any and all of you to a comparitive IQ test sleeping soundly in the knowledge you are too thick to beat the glagow average of 99 making me a genius by comparison.
It is a fact that while this policy might work in certain areas(leafy suburbs) I look for anybody stupid enough to believe it will work everywhere. I made the comment quite rightly to point out that in some parts of the fair city of glasgow this rediculous policy would lead to exactly the outcome I predict. Bear in mind we live in a city that a guy knifed his mate because he said laudrup was more skillful than gazza. So well done stevie wardog and rdl you have proven the idoicy of posters of snp conviction I would happily challenge any and all of you to a comparitive IQ test sleeping soundly in the knowledge you are too thick to beat the glagow average of 99 making me a genius by comparison.
Posted by: Jock in the Box, edinburgh on 10:09pm Sat 22 Mar 08
John Brown, Glasgow on 1:41pm
[quote]They are not there to investigate crimes, that is the role of the Procurator Fiscal's office.[/quote]
As I understand this,the PF and his/her staff determine whether the quality of evidence is sufficient to proceed to court with a conviction being one possible outcome.
The evidence which the PF examines has to be investigated by the police ,(who have different departments),before it can be compiled or there will be no evidence to examine,and how would the PF know what crime has been committed and where and when? The police number thousands where the Pfs office are much much smaller and could not possibly do what you describe.
The police perform many functions and uniform officers are preventative rather than investigative,but the plain clothes officers are clearly a lower profile.
Im just not sure what you are meaning here at all?Perhaps you can clarify?
John Brown, Glasgow on 1:41pm
They are not there to investigate crimes, that is the role of the Procurator Fiscal's office.
As I understand this,the PF and his/her staff determine whether the quality of evidence is sufficient to proceed to court with a conviction being one possible outcome.
The evidence which the PF examines has to be investigated by the police ,(who have different departments),before it can be compiled or there will be no evidence to examine,and how would the PF know what crime has been committed and where and when? The police number thousands where the Pfs office are much much smaller and could not possibly do what you describe.
The police perform many functions and uniform officers are preventative rather than investigative,but the plain clothes officers are clearly a lower profile.
Im just not sure what you are meaning here at all?Perhaps you can clarify?
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 10:10pm Sat 22 Mar 08
If you think just because smeaton and a few hardy scots stopped a terrorist attack that we should go back to the days when civvillians do the jobs of the police ask what the police think of being done out a job by the factory workers.
If you think just because smeaton and a few hardy scots stopped a terrorist attack that we should go back to the days when civvillians do the jobs of the police ask what the police think of being done out a job by the factory workers.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 10:12pm Sat 22 Mar 08
It seems to me to be a good idea, if it is properly managed, within the police.
You really don't need an experienced, hightly trained officer to go take details about and deal with the fact that kids have chalked on the pavement or been running across Mrs Smith's garden to get into the park, or whatever.
We already have traffic wardens doing a job that used to be done by the police, and that seems to work out well enough (well, not if you just been done, I accept).
I think it's worth a go if it leaves the highly trained officers to deal with the real crime.
It seems to me to be a good idea, if it is properly managed, within the police.
You really don't need an experienced, hightly trained officer to go take details about and deal with the fact that kids have chalked on the pavement or been running across Mrs Smith's garden to get into the park, or whatever.
We already have traffic wardens doing a job that used to be done by the police, and that seems to work out well enough (well, not if you just been done, I accept).
I think it's worth a go if it leaves the highly trained officers to deal with the real crime.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:13pm Sat 22 Mar 08
jonny bond I think you should stick to the Sun. You're out of your depth here.
How long have we had traffic wardens in Glasgow? Should we sack them all and replace them with policemen? Ditto clerical staff, ditto prison transport staff? All areas where policeman (highly trained and expensive) have been replaced by cheaper and more easily trained staff.
Its called good management.
All that's being suggested is that we extend this to other areas.
jonny bond I think you should stick to the Sun. You're out of your depth here.
How long have we had traffic wardens in Glasgow? Should we sack them all and replace them with policemen? Ditto clerical staff, ditto prison transport staff? All areas where policeman (highly trained and expensive) have been replaced by cheaper and more easily trained staff.
Its called good management.
All that's being suggested is that we extend this to other areas.
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 10:13pm Sat 22 Mar 08
How many people think civillians should be left to watch over the upcomming old firm game.
How many people think civillians should be left to watch over the upcomming old firm game.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 10:21pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Duns Scotus[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Donald Anderson[/bold] wrote: Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence [/quote] They've also removed the Comments section on the Gail Sheridan story. I logged a comment just after midnight but it ain't there anymore. What are they afraid of?[/quote] Yeah I did too then it vanished ! What are they afraid of ?
As long as there are very clear lines of distinction then I suppose this might work, I would like to know what the real cops think about it 'though.
Johnny you are mental.
Duns Scotus wrote:
Donald Anderson wrote: Maybe they will be employed to hunt for miniatures. What's the matter? Have the polis drink the evidence
They've also removed the Comments section on the Gail Sheridan story. I logged a comment just after midnight but it ain't there anymore. What are they afraid of?
Yeah I did too then it vanished ! What are they afraid of ?
As long as there are very clear lines of distinction then I suppose this might work, I would like to know what the real cops think about it 'though.
Johnny you are mental.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:31pm Sat 22 Mar 08
jonny do the Old Firm not employ stewards? (Rock Steady people?)They are civilians. They are cheaper than policemen.
Think before you open your mouth.
jonny do the Old Firm not employ stewards? (Rock Steady people?)They are civilians. They are cheaper than policemen.
Think before you open your mouth.
Posted by: Dave, Away on 11:36pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote][bold]tris[/bold] wrote:
It seems to me to be a good idea, if it is properly managed, within the police. You really don't need an experienced, hightly trained officer to go take details about and deal with the fact that kids have chalked on the pavement or been running across Mrs Smith's garden to get into the park, or whatever. We already have traffic wardens doing a job that used to be done by the police, and that seems to work out well enough (well, not if you just been done, I accept). I think it's worth a go if it leaves the highly trained officers to deal with the real crime. [/quote] Sadly, I think that gordon of the long title was correct when he stated:
"In the final analysis this is another step along the conservative right thinkers on privatization of law and order. Some contractor will do the job for less money, less salary and benefits.
Something like the "private armies" roaming the streets of Iraq."
We've had this before when every Duke had his own army (and kid yourself not that's what the money boys are dreaming of - with my own *legal* army I can do whatever I want to whomever unless they are more powerful than I am....they tend to forget the revolutions and wars this leads to.....even in Italy the Tarquins came a cropper...)
Just ask yourself if you'd like Lord Foulkes with his own regional army answerable to no-one....
Tris that's what it sounds like, but what happens when a major business that also owns the local policing contract desides he wants you put away. One of his flunkies comes and files a false report on you and you have no recourse, because it isn't the government you'll be appealling to, it's his corporate law department....
The final insult/injury will be that overseas companies will bid low and you'll be answering to someone from Dubai, or Germany, or Russia....is this what our Grandparents fought for?
Might as well keep the HoL's as it looks like that's where we are going...at least then we'd be ruled by our own kith and kin and not Belgians!
tris wrote:
It seems to me to be a good idea, if it is properly managed, within the police. You really don't need an experienced, hightly trained officer to go take details about and deal with the fact that kids have chalked on the pavement or been running across Mrs Smith's garden to get into the park, or whatever. We already have traffic wardens doing a job that used to be done by the police, and that seems to work out well enough (well, not if you just been done, I accept). I think it's worth a go if it leaves the highly trained officers to deal with the real crime.
Sadly, I think that gordon of the long title was correct when he stated:
"In the final analysis this is another step along the conservative right thinkers on privatization of law and order. Some contractor will do the job for less money, less salary and benefits.
Something like the "private armies" roaming the streets of Iraq."
We've had this before when every Duke had his own army (and kid yourself not that's what the money boys are dreaming of - with my own *legal* army I can do whatever I want to whomever unless they are more powerful than I am....they tend to forget the revolutions and wars this leads to.....even in Italy the Tarquins came a cropper...)
Just ask yourself if you'd like Lord Foulkes with his own regional army answerable to no-one....
Tris that's what it sounds like, but what happens when a major business that also owns the local policing contract desides he wants you put away. One of his flunkies comes and files a false report on you and you have no recourse, because it isn't the government you'll be appealling to, it's his corporate law department....
The final insult/injury will be that overseas companies will bid low and you'll be answering to someone from Dubai, or Germany, or Russia....is this what our Grandparents fought for?
Might as well keep the HoL's as it looks like that's where we are going...at least then we'd be ruled by our own kith and kin and not Belgians!
Posted by: tris, scotland on 12:19am Sun 23 Mar 08
Well clearly in that case we wouldnt want it at all....
I did say that I thought as long as it was regulated under the police I thought it was worth a look.
Clearly I don't want business having anything to do with it. (Not that I don't think the police aren't pretty corrupt as it is.)
But I haven't seen any moves yet to privatise the traffic wardens, and this is a Scottish matter, so it's not like the Tories are gonna be having any say in it.
I accept of course that in the fullness of time, the Red Tories might bet back in, always assuming the ditch the idiot leader they got.
LOL. What really put me off was the thought of his Nobleness lying somewhere in a gutter drunkenly blaring out policing instructions....
Ye gads. Ok, we'll just have to have fully trained police dealling with the noisy children at number 24..... it's a pity this country can't be trusted to so something without making a big business out of it though. Sure that's not what my grandfather fought for.
Well clearly in that case we wouldnt want it at all....
I did say that I thought as long as it was regulated under the police I thought it was worth a look.
Clearly I don't want business having anything to do with it. (Not that I don't think the police aren't pretty corrupt as it is.)
But I haven't seen any moves yet to privatise the traffic wardens, and this is a Scottish matter, so it's not like the Tories are gonna be having any say in it.
I accept of course that in the fullness of time, the Red Tories might bet back in, always assuming the ditch the idiot leader they got.
LOL. What really put me off was the thought of his Nobleness lying somewhere in a gutter drunkenly blaring out policing instructions....
Ye gads. Ok, we'll just have to have fully trained police dealling with the noisy children at number 24..... it's a pity this country can't be trusted to so something without making a big business out of it though. Sure that's not what my grandfather fought for.
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 2:39am Sun 23 Mar 08