Age limit on drinks could be raised to cut binges
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| PARTY TIME: A night on the town |
ALISON CAMPSIE and GERRY BRAIDEN
Ministers are considering an increase to the age at which people can legally buy alcohol as part of a radical plan to tackle Scotland's binge drinking culture.
Shona Robison, Minister for Public Health, said yesterday that "cutting edge" legislation could be expected as the government gets a handle on Scotland's "complex" relationship with drink and added that increasing the age of legal purchase from 18 could form part of the plan.
But licensed trade lobbyists have claimed that any move to increase the age would be "PR politics", while health campaigners also believe existing laws could be maximised instead of changing legislation.
Others claim the move would do little more than increase the number of illegal purchases, with predictions of an upsurge of over-21 "agents" buying alcohol on behalf of those under-age, as well as putting drink out of reach for hundreds of thousands of university and college students.
It would bring Scotland into line with the US, Oman, the UAE, Egypt, Ukraine and Pakistan, while the Scandinavian nations have a legal purchasing age of 20.
Ms Robison's remarks come just days after SNP MSP Kenny Gibson lodged a question to ask if the Scottish Government "will consider raising the age at which alcohol can be purchased to 21 years".
According to licensed trade sources, the idea was also mooted by the previous Labour administration but did not get beyond the discussion stage.
Even discussing the idea is also in keeping with SNP policy on alcohol, which is seeking to change the culture of the many rather than addressing solely the problems of the few.
Ms Robison, who announced yesterday that £80m was to be spent on tackling alcohol misuse over the next three years, said: "We have been looking at all the issues such as availability, accessibility and age of purchase.
"These are things being considered. We have to get the public to acknowledge that there is a problem. There will certainly be some challenging proposals to build on."
Ms Robison said that a "robust" response was required to reflect the scale of alcohol-related problems in Scotland.
"It will recognise that as a society we consume too much alcohol, across all socio-economic group and we have been looking at various ways to challenge the culture," she said.
While the contents of the strategy have not yet been finalised, Ms Robison said that a rise in the legal drinking age in Scotland could be possible.
She added: "We would have the power to do that but nothing has been ruled in and nothing has been ruled out."
Dr Maggie Watts, public health consultant and chairperson of the Ayrshire and Arran Alcohol and Drug Action Team, said a rise in the legal drinking age would have a "limited effect" in tackling the problem when introduced in isolation.
She said: "Alcohol is a legal substance. What we need to do is make sure that people know how to use it safely. It's about treating alcohol with respect and educating people on the importance of balancing alcohol against other factors in their lives.
"If you are able to get married at 16 or enlist to die for your country at 16, at what point do you say this is a toxic substance, you can't have it?"
A senior police source whose remit includes addressing underage drinking said he would be "very cautious" over any moves to increase the age limit.
Jack Law, chief executive of Alcohol Focus Scotland, said: "We want to see much tougher enforcement of the current laws, with stricter penalties including loss of licence for those who break the law by selling to under-18s."
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Posted by: col, seattle on 1:14am Fri 21 Mar 08
mum said she was just going out to the bingo! seriously, this proposal is dead in the water as the revenue loss would be titanic for HM Treasury. regarding uni students missing out on a rite of passage, I can't imagine students actually having any spare cash anymore (aside from the fwah fwahs of course).
mum said she was just going out to the bingo! seriously, this proposal is dead in the water as the revenue loss would be titanic for HM Treasury. regarding uni students missing out on a rite of passage, I can't imagine students actually having any spare cash anymore (aside from the fwah fwahs of course).
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:23am Fri 21 Mar 08
Wendy Alexander, Cathy Jamieson, Jackie Bailie and the rest of the liebour nedette girls spending a night on the town.
Wendy Alexander, Cathy Jamieson, Jackie Bailie and the rest of the liebour nedette girls spending a night on the town.
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 4:30am Fri 21 Mar 08
What difference will it make I had my first drink in majorca in a bar at 11.
What difference will it make I had my first drink in majorca in a bar at 11.
Posted by: FIFER, Anstruther,Fife on 6:23am Fri 21 Mar 08
most picked up the habit from their parents anyway.
most picked up the habit from their parents anyway.
Posted by: Bryan Weir, Balloch on 6:55am Fri 21 Mar 08
Isn't the evidence that many of today's 18 year olds are not old enough to handle alcohol already on the streets?
Isn't the evidence that many of today's 18 year olds are not old enough to handle alcohol already on the streets?
Posted by: Tea Boy at the RBS, Leith on 7:14am Fri 21 Mar 08
In most Southern European countries the legal age to buy alcohol is just 16 and yet those cpountries do not have serious alcohol related problems; I wonder why!
In most Southern European countries the legal age to buy alcohol is just 16 and yet those cpountries do not have serious alcohol related problems; I wonder why!
Posted by: TSM, Glasgow on 7:34am Fri 21 Mar 08
[quote]The immediate concern would be how to enforce it, since the number of under-18s drinking alcohol means the law is continually flouted.[/quote] states The Herald opinion.
But that's just the problem, it's not!
The simple solution is to bring in a law to srop under 18's drinking, at least in public, not penalise the whole nation with all sorts of draconian measures.
The immediate concern would be how to enforce it, since the number of under-18s drinking alcohol means the law is continually flouted.
states The Herald opinion.
But that's just the problem, it's not!
The simple solution is to bring in a law to srop under 18's drinking, at least in public, not penalise the whole nation with all sorts of draconian measures.
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 8:11am Fri 21 Mar 08
[quote]"If you are able to get married at 16 or enlist to die for your country at 16, at what point do you say this is a toxic substance, you can't have it?"[/quote]
What balderdash. I propose instead we increase the legal age to get married and join up to the drinking age -- whatever that may be. At sixteen they're still bairns, they may not know it but 16yrs goes by in a flash and the majority at that age aren't old enough to understand what marriage or war really means.
[quote]A senior police source whose remit includes addressing underage drinking said he would be "very cautious" over any moves to increase the age limit.[/quote]
But then, he would say that. I've seen kids as young as thirteen being served in pubs and nightclubs. The police (certainly the force in Perth) don't want to know and if they can be convinced into doing a spot check they simply ignore those under age. It's astonishing to see them pretend to scan the place and avert their eyes from the kids.
My preference would be for the police to do their job in tackling under-age drinking, and if they don't have the resources then they have the responsibility to make a lot of noise about it and get the resources. Failing which, increasing the legal age seems the only reasonable thing to do.
"If you are able to get married at 16 or enlist to die for your country at 16, at what point do you say this is a toxic substance, you can't have it?"
What balderdash. I propose instead we increase the legal age to get married and join up to the drinking age -- whatever that may be. At sixteen they're still bairns, they may not know it but 16yrs goes by in a flash and the majority at that age aren't old enough to understand what marriage or war really means.
A senior police source whose remit includes addressing underage drinking said he would be "very cautious" over any moves to increase the age limit.
But then, he would say that. I've seen kids as young as thirteen being served in pubs and nightclubs. The police (certainly the force in Perth) don't want to know and if they can be convinced into doing a spot check they simply ignore those under age. It's astonishing to see them pretend to scan the place and avert their eyes from the kids.
My preference would be for the police to do their job in tackling under-age drinking, and if they don't have the resources then they have the responsibility to make a lot of noise about it and get the resources. Failing which, increasing the legal age seems the only reasonable thing to do.
Posted by: James McLaren on 8:55am Fri 21 Mar 08
I don't think that the legal age for buying alcohol in SCANDINAVIA is 20. I have a house in Denmark and think that the legal age for beer is 14. Schoolkids on their way home from school pop in and nut a beer!
As for the countries in the other parts of Scandinavia, where you have to sign the "poisons book" to buy alcohol for a State Alcohol Monopoly Shop, it does not work. I have never seem such serious drinking from all sectors of society as I have seen in Norway and Finland.
Puting the price up does ]not work also as they either make it at home, huge business, smuggle it in or go on Fery boats to Estonia, get blooterd and buy a carry out for disembarking in Helsinki.
Q How do the Danes, who have a relaxed attitute to alcohol, identify a Swede?
A He is the one being helped back to the Ferry embarkation point for the return journey to Sweden. Rumour has it that the Danish Boy Scouts have a special badge for this a ccomplishment
James McLaren
I don't think that the legal age for buying alcohol in SCANDINAVIA is 20. I have a house in Denmark and think that the legal age for beer is 14. Schoolkids on their way home from school pop in and nut a beer!
As for the countries in the other parts of Scandinavia, where you have to sign the "poisons book" to buy alcohol for a State Alcohol Monopoly Shop, it does not work. I have never seem such serious drinking from all sectors of society as I have seen in Norway and Finland.
Puting the price up does ]not work also as they either make it at home, huge business, smuggle it in or go on Fery boats to Estonia, get blooterd and buy a carry out for disembarking in Helsinki.
Q How do the Danes, who have a relaxed attitute to alcohol, identify a Swede?
A He is the one being helped back to the Ferry embarkation point for the return journey to Sweden. Rumour has it that the Danish Boy Scouts have a special badge for this a ccomplishment
James McLaren
Posted by: SC, Dundee on 9:11am Fri 21 Mar 08
[quote][bold]James McLaren[/bold] wrote:
I don't think that the legal age for buying alcohol in SCANDINAVIA is 20. I have a house in Denmark and think that the legal age for beer is 14. Schoolkids on their way home from school pop in and nut a beer! As for the countries in the other parts of Scandinavia, where you have to sign the "poisons book" to buy alcohol for a State Alcohol Monopoly Shop, it does not work. I have never seem such serious drinking from all sectors of society as I have seen in Norway and Finland. Puting the price up does ]not work also as they either make it at home, huge business, smuggle it in or go on Fery boats to Estonia, get blooterd and buy a carry out for disembarking in Helsinki. Q How do the Danes, who have a relaxed attitute to alcohol, identify a Swede? A He is the one being helped back to the Ferry embarkation point for the return journey to Sweden. Rumour has it that the Danish Boy Scouts have a special badge for this a ccomplishment James McLaren [/quote] Important lessons from Denmark. Thank you, James.
James McLaren wrote:
I don't think that the legal age for buying alcohol in SCANDINAVIA is 20. I have a house in Denmark and think that the legal age for beer is 14. Schoolkids on their way home from school pop in and nut a beer! As for the countries in the other parts of Scandinavia, where you have to sign the "poisons book" to buy alcohol for a State Alcohol Monopoly Shop, it does not work. I have never seem such serious drinking from all sectors of society as I have seen in Norway and Finland. Puting the price up does ]not work also as they either make it at home, huge business, smuggle it in or go on Fery boats to Estonia, get blooterd and buy a carry out for disembarking in Helsinki. Q How do the Danes, who have a relaxed attitute to alcohol, identify a Swede? A He is the one being helped back to the Ferry embarkation point for the return journey to Sweden. Rumour has it that the Danish Boy Scouts have a special badge for this a ccomplishment James McLaren
Important lessons from Denmark. Thank you, James.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, I predicted this garabge attack yesterday on 9:50am Fri 21 Mar 08
Tosh, nonsense and hyperbole - prohibition never has worked, never will work and the 20 limit in the USA did not prevent George Bush junior's little angels from getting out of their tree and arrested when they were U 18.
People drink excessively because they are bored, have little hope and in some cases just because they want to.
Tosh, nonsense and hyperbole - prohibition never has worked, never will work and the 20 limit in the USA did not prevent George Bush junior's little angels from getting out of their tree and arrested when they were U 18.
People drink excessively because they are bored, have little hope and in some cases just because they want to.
Posted by: Cass, Spain on 10:06am Fri 21 Mar 08
IF, and I repeat IF, they power-that-be ever decide to raise the drinking age to combat binge drinking, I hope they also standardize the age limit for all minors at the same time. i.e. Driving licence, joining the military, marriage, leaving school, voting, etc, etc. Or, will they only cherry pick the items that suit the establishment.
IF, and I repeat IF, they power-that-be ever decide to raise the drinking age to combat binge drinking, I hope they also standardize the age limit for all minors at the same time. i.e. Driving licence, joining the military, marriage, leaving school, voting, etc, etc. Or, will they only cherry pick the items that suit the establishment.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 10:46am Fri 21 Mar 08
A lot of good sense in the comments here, and little from the government.
The police must enforce the law as it is. We don't need more prohibitions.
We have managed to change public acceptance of drink driving, to the point where few people would condone it; now we need to do the same with drunkeness on the streets and under age drinking.
It can be done. It must be done.
Putting the age up will only make drink more appealing, and as someone said; how on earth are you going to tell university students away on their own for the first time, that they can't have a 'few' drinks.
You've had some good ideas Shona, and this is not one of them. Spoend the money on more policing as you said you would in the manifesto.
A lot of good sense in the comments here, and little from the government.
The police must enforce the law as it is. We don't need more prohibitions.
We have managed to change public acceptance of drink driving, to the point where few people would condone it; now we need to do the same with drunkeness on the streets and under age drinking.
It can be done. It must be done.
Putting the age up will only make drink more appealing, and as someone said; how on earth are you going to tell university students away on their own for the first time, that they can't have a 'few' drinks.
You've had some good ideas Shona, and this is not one of them. Spoend the money on more policing as you said you would in the manifesto.
Posted by: bobwmac, New Mexico/Stirlingshire on 10:58am Fri 21 Mar 08
In our Scottish home town it's not the buyers of alcohol that should be controlled, it's the sellers, who supply Buckfast to anyone old enough to reach out of the pram. The local police describe the prosecution of the vendors as "sensitive", because they immediately play the race and creed cards to muddy the waters. The introduction of a restricted off sales licence requiring the licencee to be on the premises while alcohol is being sold would help, and the licence itself should be linked to the premises to prevent transference of a licence to other family members to continue trading to minors in the unlkiekly event of a prosecution.
In our Scottish home town it's not the buyers of alcohol that should be controlled, it's the sellers, who supply Buckfast to anyone old enough to reach out of the pram. The local police describe the prosecution of the vendors as "sensitive", because they immediately play the race and creed cards to muddy the waters. The introduction of a restricted off sales licence requiring the licencee to be on the premises while alcohol is being sold would help, and the licence itself should be linked to the premises to prevent transference of a licence to other family members to continue trading to minors in the unlkiekly event of a prosecution.
Posted by: Stew, Aberdeen on 11:18am Fri 21 Mar 08
Nice knockers on the one at the front of the picture though.
The others are good 6 pinters.
Nice knockers on the one at the front of the picture though.
The others are good 6 pinters.
Posted by: Exiled Aussie, Banff on 11:20am Fri 21 Mar 08
More [bold]TARTAN TORY[/bold] gimmikry to seek out cheap publicity.
"Never mind if it doesnt work - "dont we look busy ?"
More
TARTAN TORY gimmikry to seek out cheap publicity.
"Never mind if it doesnt work - "dont we look busy ?"
Posted by: Johnny, Glasgow on 11:37am Fri 21 Mar 08
Education, Education, Education.......How about we educate young people about alcohol rather than increase the age it can be consumed at. Under age drinking in Scotland is seen as a right of passage...how depressing! Whatever happened to young people enjoying their adolescence and seeking other activities with less harmful effects. Unfortunately, that would mean the young people becoming more creative and taking some responsibility. Sadly, that is something alien to a section of our youth.
I've worked with young people who have told me that during their adolescence they never went out. The reason for this was that they didn't want to drink and they didn't feel safe in an environment where alcohol had the potential to fuel violence. This is not an unusual story and until we as a society actually get off our backsides and provide an infrastructure that creates alternatives, then the Scottish
hard man drinking culture will always exist.
Education, Education, Education.......How about we educate young people about alcohol rather than increase the age it can be consumed at. Under age drinking in Scotland is seen as a right of passage...how depressing! Whatever happened to young people enjoying their adolescence and seeking other activities with less harmful effects. Unfortunately, that would mean the young people becoming more creative and taking some responsibility. Sadly, that is something alien to a section of our youth.
I've worked with young people who have told me that during their adolescence they never went out. The reason for this was that they didn't want to drink and they didn't feel safe in an environment where alcohol had the potential to fuel violence. This is not an unusual story and until we as a society actually get off our backsides and provide an infrastructure that creates alternatives, then the Scottish
hard man drinking culture will always exist.
Posted by: kilomike, Lower Greenwich, CA on 11:42am Fri 21 Mar 08
Interesting posts, old enough to get shot in the shrub / blair / Haliburton / cheney war in Iraq, but not old enough to be trusted to buy a beer. That will go down well in some quarters.
Interesting posts, old enough to get shot in the shrub / blair / Haliburton / cheney war in Iraq, but not old enough to be trusted to buy a beer. That will go down well in some quarters.
Posted by: Scot Ed, Scotland on 11:43am Fri 21 Mar 08
Ponder this, if the age of buying alcohol was raised to 21, I would imagine anyone planning to go to University would exclude all the Scottish Universities and sign up for English Universities.
I cant imagine any student in their right mind wanting to study at a "dry" University !
Ponder this, if the age of buying alcohol was raised to 21, I would imagine anyone planning to go to University would exclude all the Scottish Universities and sign up for English Universities.
I cant imagine any student in their right mind wanting to study at a "dry" University !
Posted by: Ewan, Glasgow on 12:01pm Fri 21 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Celtic Lion[/bold] wrote:
[quote]"If you are able to get married at 16 or enlist to die for your country at 16, at what point do you say this is a toxic substance, you can't have it?"[/quote] What balderdash. I propose instead we increase the legal age to get married and join up to the drinking age -- whatever that may be. At sixteen they're still bairns, they may not know it but 16yrs goes by in a flash and the majority at that age aren't old enough to understand what marriage or war really means. [quote]A senior police source whose remit includes addressing underage drinking said he would be "very cautious" over any moves to increase the age limit.[/quote] But then, he would say that. I've seen kids as young as thirteen being served in pubs and nightclubs. The police (certainly the force in Perth) don't want to know and if they can be convinced into doing a spot check they simply ignore those under age. It's astonishing to see them pretend to scan the place and avert their eyes from the kids. My preference would be for the police to do their job in tackling under-age drinking, and if they don't have the resources then they have the responsibility to make a lot of noise about it and get the resources. Failing which, increasing the legal age seems the only reasonable thing to do.[/quote] What sort of establishments are you frequenting? If you're hanging out in places where they "openly serve 13 year-olds" that says as much about you as it does the rest of them. "Astonishing" to see the police ignoring it? What, did you go and ID these kids, and if so why did you ignore it??
Celtic Lion wrote:
"If you are able to get married at 16 or enlist to die for your country at 16, at what point do you say this is a toxic substance, you can't have it?"
What balderdash. I propose instead we increase the legal age to get married and join up to the drinking age -- whatever that may be. At sixteen they're still bairns, they may not know it but 16yrs goes by in a flash and the majority at that age aren't old enough to understand what marriage or war really means. A senior police source whose remit includes addressing underage drinking said he would be "very cautious" over any moves to increase the age limit.
But then, he would say that. I've seen kids as young as thirteen being served in pubs and nightclubs. The police (certainly the force in Perth) don't want to know and if they can be convinced into doing a spot check they simply ignore those under age. It's astonishing to see them pretend to scan the place and avert their eyes from the kids. My preference would be for the police to do their job in tackling under-age drinking, and if they don't have the resources then they have the responsibility to make a lot of noise about it and get the resources. Failing which, increasing the legal age seems the only reasonable thing to do.
What sort of establishments are you frequenting? If you're hanging out in places where they "openly serve 13 year-olds" that says as much about you as it does the rest of them. "Astonishing" to see the police ignoring it? What, did you go and ID these kids, and if so why did you ignore it??
Posted by: John J. Sheridan, Z'ha'dum on 12:13pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Enforce current law, don't resort to the nu labour knee jerk, look good for the press route of creating offences which the police and fiscal' s have no intention or will to enforce.
Binge drinking can be targeted at source.
In the pubs, clubs and most importantly (for under age consumption) the corner shop off sales.
It will take a concerted and difficult effort from the police for quite some time, but that is what we pay them for and it will be well worth it in terms of the knock on effects on preventing disorderly conduct and alcohol fuelled violence.
Be brutal in the enforcement by taking away the licences of those who fail to refuse alcohol to those who are visibly intoxicated and those seeking to purchase alcohol for them.
Put them out of business, word will spread pretty fast.
The corner shop is even easier (I have done it myself by direct action) some of these small businesses have little or no concern as to who they sell alcohol to, they should be made to by taking away their right to sell it.
Raising the age limits are a toothless weapon.
Enforce current law, don't resort to the nu labour knee jerk, look good for the press route of creating offences which the police and fiscal' s have no intention or will to enforce.
Binge drinking can be targeted at source.
In the pubs, clubs and most importantly (for under age consumption) the corner shop off sales.
It will take a concerted and difficult effort from the police for quite some time, but that is what we pay them for and it will be well worth it in terms of the knock on effects on preventing disorderly conduct and alcohol fuelled violence.
Be brutal in the enforcement by taking away the licences of those who fail to refuse alcohol to those who are visibly intoxicated and those seeking to purchase alcohol for them.
Put them out of business, word will spread pretty fast.
The corner shop is even easier (I have done it myself by direct action) some of these small businesses have little or no concern as to who they sell alcohol to, they should be made to by taking away their right to sell it.
Raising the age limits are a toothless weapon.
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 12:17pm Fri 21 Mar 08
[bold]Ewan, Glasgow on 12:01pm[/bold]
One pub I was in, actually a very responsible pub (up to then), when my sister who I was with pointed to a kid being served alcohol at the bar and said "That's my boss's niece, she's thirteen." The bar didn't care when we told them.
A colleague of mine was concerned that a friend of his daughter, who was thirteen or fourteen at the time, had been drinking in a nightclub and when he telephoned the police (in case his daughter should try the same) he was told they couldn't do anything about it.
At another pub from the one above, again quite a reasonable one, a table of kids still with their school bags and jumpers over their uniforms were being served large amounts of alcohol. When I said something to the bar they said something along the lines of "Not if I don't judge them to be under eighteen they aren't." So I called the police and they stood next to the very table and scanned the area then walked out.
Don't pretend to judge me, judge the scum which profiteer off these kids and the police which are failing to do their duty. Don't pretend to judge the places I have chosen to drink in before, the problem is rife and only escaped by a blind eye. After seeing just once the pubs serving people under age I didn't drink at either of them again. I certainly don't frequent establishments you seem to want to suggest I do.
Ewan, that you're judging me and not the facts "says as much about you."
Ewan, Glasgow on 12:01pm
One pub I was in, actually a very responsible pub (up to then), when my sister who I was with pointed to a kid being served alcohol at the bar and said "That's my boss's niece, she's thirteen." The bar didn't care when we told them.
A colleague of mine was concerned that a friend of his daughter, who was thirteen or fourteen at the time, had been drinking in a nightclub and when he telephoned the police (in case his daughter should try the same) he was told they couldn't do anything about it.
At another pub from the one above, again quite a reasonable one, a table of kids still with their school bags and jumpers over their uniforms were being served large amounts of alcohol. When I said something to the bar they said something along the lines of "Not if I don't judge them to be under eighteen they aren't." So I called the police and they stood next to the very table and scanned the area then walked out.
Don't pretend to judge me, judge the scum which profiteer off these kids and the police which are failing to do their duty. Don't pretend to judge the places I have chosen to drink in before, the problem is rife and only escaped by a blind eye. After seeing just once the pubs serving people under age I didn't drink at either of them again. I certainly don't frequent establishments you seem to want to suggest I do.
Ewan, that you're judging me and not the facts "says as much about you."
Posted by: Ewan, Glasgow on 12:31pm Fri 21 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Celtic Lion[/bold] wrote:
[bold]Ewan, Glasgow on 12:01pm[/bold] One pub I was in, actually a very responsible pub (up to then), when my sister who I was with pointed to a kid being served alcohol at the bar and said "That's my boss's niece, she's thirteen." The bar didn't care when we told them. A colleague of mine was concerned that a friend of his daughter, who was thirteen or fourteen at the time, had been drinking in a nightclub and when he telephoned the police (in case his daughter should try the same) he was told they couldn't do anything about it. At another pub from the one above, again quite a reasonable one, a table of kids still with their school bags and jumpers over their uniforms were being served large amounts of alcohol. When I said something to the bar they said something along the lines of "Not if I don't judge them to be under eighteen they aren't." So I called the police and they stood next to the very table and scanned the area then walked out. Don't pretend to judge me, judge the scum which profiteer off these kids and the police which are failing to do their duty. Don't pretend to judge the places I have chosen to drink in before, the problem is rife and only escaped by a blind eye. After seeing just once the pubs serving people under age I didn't drink at either of them again. I certainly don't frequent establishments you seem to want to suggest I do. Ewan, that you're judging me and not the facts "says as much about you."[/quote] All I'm judging is the facts as you described them!!
Well Done you, I say, for taking a stand and changing your drinking establishments, though if the situation is a bad as you describe your only alternative shortly will be a cairry-oot in front of River City on the plasma. The law exists to penalise not only licencees, but individual bar staff who are caught selling alcohol to those under age. If you indeed witnessed such blatant transgressions of the law you CAN do something about it if you make enough noise to the right people.
I'd be having a word with yer Chief Constable and Licensing Authority.
Celtic Lion wrote:
Ewan, Glasgow on 12:01pm One pub I was in, actually a very responsible pub (up to then), when my sister who I was with pointed to a kid being served alcohol at the bar and said "That's my boss's niece, she's thirteen." The bar didn't care when we told them. A colleague of mine was concerned that a friend of his daughter, who was thirteen or fourteen at the time, had been drinking in a nightclub and when he telephoned the police (in case his daughter should try the same) he was told they couldn't do anything about it. At another pub from the one above, again quite a reasonable one, a table of kids still with their school bags and jumpers over their uniforms were being served large amounts of alcohol. When I said something to the bar they said something along the lines of "Not if I don't judge them to be under eighteen they aren't." So I called the police and they stood next to the very table and scanned the area then walked out. Don't pretend to judge me, judge the scum which profiteer off these kids and the police which are failing to do their duty. Don't pretend to judge the places I have chosen to drink in before, the problem is rife and only escaped by a blind eye. After seeing just once the pubs serving people under age I didn't drink at either of them again. I certainly don't frequent establishments you seem to want to suggest I do. Ewan, that you're judging me and not the facts "says as much about you."
All I'm judging is the facts as you described them!!
Well Done you, I say, for taking a stand and changing your drinking establishments, though if the situation is a bad as you describe your only alternative shortly will be a cairry-oot in front of River City on the plasma. The law exists to penalise not only licencees, but individual bar staff who are caught selling alcohol to those under age. If you indeed witnessed such blatant transgressions of the law you CAN do something about it if you make enough noise to the right people.
I'd be having a word with yer Chief Constable and Licensing Authority.
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 12:47pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Well I think some of your comments were a little off if I'm honest, I'm not used to having to defend myself against accusations because of things I did not say. I'll let others be the judge though, as I'm sure they will be.
I'll add that I rarely drink, the last time I drank would have been the first week of the new year. Since the last incident (with the school children, three or four years ago) I grew tired of pubs and since then have only been in one pub for one drink while I was waiting for someone and the heavens opened. One pub I mentioned was a small family-owned and family-oriented pub which has since changed hands, the other was a "socially oriented" chain of pubs.
I now have my own health problems, which keep me tied indoors almost all the time these days. I am not in a position to "do something about it." I forgot to mention the visit I asked from the police, who told me "They have a right to entertain." I've since moved away from Perth.
Well I think some of your comments were a little off if I'm honest, I'm not used to having to defend myself against accusations because of things I did not say. I'll let others be the judge though, as I'm sure they will be.
I'll add that I rarely drink, the last time I drank would have been the first week of the new year. Since the last incident (with the school children, three or four years ago) I grew tired of pubs and since then have only been in one pub for one drink while I was waiting for someone and the heavens opened. One pub I mentioned was a small family-owned and family-oriented pub which has since changed hands, the other was a "socially oriented" chain of pubs.
I now have my own health problems, which keep me tied indoors almost all the time these days. I am not in a position to "do something about it." I forgot to mention the visit I asked from the police, who told me "They have a right to entertain." I've since moved away from Perth.
Posted by: col, seattle on 12:49pm Fri 21 Mar 08
morning all! looks like i'm in the middle of a fight so i'll be brief. imagine if certain 18-20 year olds did not have access to a pervasive legal drug, what might they do to escape reality? watch the crime-rates soar as the price of non-taxed drugs increases. this problem will take generations to resolve, and it's futile to make comparisons with other countries.
morning all! looks like i'm in the middle of a fight so i'll be brief. imagine if certain 18-20 year olds did not have access to a pervasive legal drug, what might they do to escape reality? watch the crime-rates soar as the price of non-taxed drugs increases. this problem will take generations to resolve, and it's futile to make comparisons with other countries.
Posted by: Big Boy Did It, And Ran Away on 1:04pm Fri 21 Mar 08
I've got an idea: How about a national system of ID cards! Put some bimoetric data on them, dish them out to everyone, then anyone who is under 18 and trying to buy alcohol can have their ID checked!
Hmmm, on second thoughts, no.
I agree with many of the posts. Prohibition / increasing age limits etc. is not a good idea.
John @ 12.13 hit the nail on the head. Enforce what is currently available. Two strikes and yer licence is gone to any shops / pubs selling to under 18's; robust cautioning for anyone buying for under 18's; and perhaps beef up the police response to those utterly mangled on the street.
By this I don't mean prosecuting everyone, with attendant risks to future prospects etc. But more use of police cautions etc. may act as a suitable message to highlight a change in perception regarding the acceptability of alcohol related behaviour.
Another part of the change in attitude on alcohol is education. Many European countries have a more relaxed attitude to alcohol, so when age 15 is reached, there is not the big rush and adventure of experimenting with booze to go through.
The legal age for consumption in the home is 5 or thereabouts, and I have every intention to allow my daughter a glass of wine or whatever with dinner when she is, say, 12 or 13. I think this will demystify alcohol, and defuse the desire to go and get overly drunk with pals and a bottle of cheap cider.
You need to learn how to ride a bike, drive a car etc. The same goes for alcohol. You need to learn the effect of alcohol on your body, in order to understand that if you then swill back a whole lot more, you will end up spewing / incapable / unconcious. By doing this, you will in time have a change in attitudes to excessive drinking in the majority.
I've got an idea: How about a national system of ID cards! Put some bimoetric data on them, dish them out to everyone, then anyone who is under 18 and trying to buy alcohol can have their ID checked!
Hmmm, on second thoughts, no.
I agree with many of the posts. Prohibition / increasing age limits etc. is not a good idea.
John @ 12.13 hit the nail on the head. Enforce what is currently available. Two strikes and yer licence is gone to any shops / pubs selling to under 18's; robust cautioning for anyone buying for under 18's; and perhaps beef up the police response to those utterly mangled on the street.
By this I don't mean prosecuting everyone, with attendant risks to future prospects etc. But more use of police cautions etc. may act as a suitable message to highlight a change in perception regarding the acceptability of alcohol related behaviour.
Another part of the change in attitude on alcohol is education. Many European countries have a more relaxed attitude to alcohol, so when age 15 is reached, there is not the big rush and adventure of experimenting with booze to go through.
The legal age for consumption in the home is 5 or thereabouts, and I have every intention to allow my daughter a glass of wine or whatever with dinner when she is, say, 12 or 13. I think this will demystify alcohol, and defuse the desire to go and get overly drunk with pals and a bottle of cheap cider.
You need to learn how to ride a bike, drive a car etc. The same goes for alcohol. You need to learn the effect of alcohol on your body, in order to understand that if you then swill back a whole lot more, you will end up spewing / incapable / unconcious. By doing this, you will in time have a change in attitudes to excessive drinking in the majority.
Posted by: Ewan, Glasgow on 1:05pm Fri 21 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Celtic Lion[/bold] wrote:
Well I think some of your comments were a little off if I'm honest, I'm not used to having to defend myself against accusations because of things I did not say. I'll let others be the judge though, as I'm sure they will be. I'll add that I rarely drink, the last time I drank would have been the first week of the new year. Since the last incident (with the school children, three or four years ago) I grew tired of pubs and since then have only been in one pub for one drink while I was waiting for someone and the heavens opened. One pub I mentioned was a small family-owned and family-oriented pub which has since changed hands, the other was a "socially oriented" chain of pubs. I now have my own health problems, which keep me tied indoors almost all the time these days. I am not in a position to "do something about it." I forgot to mention the visit I asked from the police, who told me "They have a right to entertain." I've since moved away from Perth.[/quote] Accusations???? What? Ach, calm down, I didn't 'accuse' you of anything. What, so I made a comment on something before you took the opportunity to furnish me with the full detailed background (whether I wanted it or not)? You've been prone yourself to giving people the benefit of your opinion on certain issues when you could not have known the full circumstances, so don't start whingeing when someone makes a comment you might consider to be unreasonable. You're happy enough to engage in debate when it's going your way.
I'm genuinely very sorry to hear of your health problems, but please don't be so quick to leap down someone's throat when they have have the audacity to have a slightly different viewpoint and don't come on praising your post.
Enjoy your weekend.
Celtic Lion wrote:
Well I think some of your comments were a little off if I'm honest, I'm not used to having to defend myself against accusations because of things I did not say. I'll let others be the judge though, as I'm sure they will be. I'll add that I rarely drink, the last time I drank would have been the first week of the new year. Since the last incident (with the school children, three or four years ago) I grew tired of pubs and since then have only been in one pub for one drink while I was waiting for someone and the heavens opened. One pub I mentioned was a small family-owned and family-oriented pub which has since changed hands, the other was a "socially oriented" chain of pubs. I now have my own health problems, which keep me tied indoors almost all the time these days. I am not in a position to "do something about it." I forgot to mention the visit I asked from the police, who told me "They have a right to entertain." I've since moved away from Perth.
Accusations???? What? Ach, calm down, I didn't 'accuse' you of anything. What, so I made a comment on something before you took the opportunity to furnish me with the full detailed background (whether I wanted it or not)? You've been prone yourself to giving people the benefit of your opinion on certain issues when you could not have known the full circumstances, so don't start whingeing when someone makes a comment you might consider to be unreasonable. You're happy enough to engage in debate when it's going your way.
I'm genuinely very sorry to hear of your health problems, but please don't be so quick to leap down someone's throat when they have have the audacity to have a slightly different viewpoint and don't come on praising your post.
Enjoy your weekend.
Posted by: sam, greenock on 1:15pm Fri 21 Mar 08
How high would you have to raise legal age before binge drinking, drunken louts like George Foulkes would be stopped from assaulting elderly women and police officers.
How high would you have to raise legal age before binge drinking, drunken louts like George Foulkes would be stopped from assaulting elderly women and police officers.
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 1:28pm Fri 21 Mar 08
[bold]Ewan[/bold]
I defended myself against phrases such as "...that says as much about you as it does the rest of them." I think you'd be offended if someone said as such to you, and I think I was quite restrained in giving you the full facts lest you make any more assumptions.
When I've mistaken what someone is saying I find it helps to apologise, and not make them out to be the one in the wrong for the way I (or you in this case) assumed the facts.
I really couldn't give a toss about holding grudges against others or getting too angry, there are a handful of people on these boards who wish to stir up trouble and I find the best way to deal with them is to ignore them. I'm sorry you took offence at me defending myself, I'm sorry if my trying to be clear made me sound like I have a stick up my backside (which it usually does, sound like that is), and I'm also sorry you judge yourself to have been in the right in the first post. In the big scheme of things though, I'm of no doubt we'll both survive and not lose any sleep.
Thank you for your concern regarding my health. Things are starting to get better and I'm hoping to make some bigger steps soon -- it's been a long journey and one on which I've learnt much. I've found that even the most unfortunate circumstances bring with them many lessons.
I hope you enjoy your weekend too, but not before you enjoy the rest of today!
Ewan
I defended myself against phrases such as "...that says as much about you as it does the rest of them." I think you'd be offended if someone said as such to you, and I think I was quite restrained in giving you the full facts lest you make any more assumptions.
When I've mistaken what someone is saying I find it helps to apologise, and not make them out to be the one in the wrong for the way I (or you in this case) assumed the facts.
I really couldn't give a toss about holding grudges against others or getting too angry, there are a handful of people on these boards who wish to stir up trouble and I find the best way to deal with them is to ignore them. I'm sorry you took offence at me defending myself, I'm sorry if my trying to be clear made me sound like I have a stick up my backside (which it usually does, sound like that is), and I'm also sorry you judge yourself to have been in the right in the first post. In the big scheme of things though, I'm of no doubt we'll both survive and not lose any sleep.
Thank you for your concern regarding my health. Things are starting to get better and I'm hoping to make some bigger steps soon -- it's been a long journey and one on which I've learnt much. I've found that even the most unfortunate circumstances bring with them many lessons.
I hope you enjoy your weekend too, but not before you enjoy the rest of today!
Posted by: Ewan, Glasgow on 1:38pm Fri 21 Mar 08
I love it when it all has a happy ending.
Must dash, Ryanair flight to catch.
I love it when it all has a happy ending.
Must dash, Ryanair flight to catch.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 1:41pm Fri 21 Mar 08
This aint gonna fly.
I'd pose 'The London Taxi' question. the law says that all car passengers must wear seat belts. London Taxis have signs inside them advising you to 'belt up'. However, nobody does. Now there are more police in London per square mile than anywhere else. They don't enforce it.
No use passing a law you cannot enforce.
This aint gonna fly.
I'd pose 'The London Taxi' question. the law says that all car passengers must wear seat belts. London Taxis have signs inside them advising you to 'belt up'. However, nobody does. Now there are more police in London per square mile than anywhere else. They don't enforce it.
No use passing a law you cannot enforce.
Posted by: phil1, edinburgh on 1:49pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Raising the age to 21 for buying and consuming alcoholic drinks works in America because it is strictly enforced and harsh penalties are imposed on those that drink under age and those that sell to under age people. You need your passport to get a drink if you look under 25-30.
We don't enforce the present laws so why bother bringing in extra tough sounding laws when the present ones are ignored.
It's the 'busies' in the Scottish Parliament who just cannot stop passing law after law iressespective of whether or not existing laws could be made to work.
Enforce the present laws first then see how to make improvements.
Raising the age to 21 for buying and consuming alcoholic drinks works in America because it is strictly enforced and harsh penalties are imposed on those that drink under age and those that sell to under age people. You need your passport to get a drink if you look under 25-30.
We don't enforce the present laws so why bother bringing in extra tough sounding laws when the present ones are ignored.
It's the 'busies' in the Scottish Parliament who just cannot stop passing law after law iressespective of whether or not existing laws could be made to work.
Enforce the present laws first then see how to make improvements.
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 1:55pm Fri 21 Mar 08
I do hope it goes better for you than last time Ewan, and Strathturret's first line isn't some kind of premonition!
To me the reason that a 21yr age limit may work is because people go through a lot of changes in appearance between the ages of 18 and 21. It's easy to say "I thought he was 18, not 16." It's not so easy to say "I thought he was 21, not 16." If by raising our minimum drinking age to 21 we ensure fewer people under 18 are drinking then it's a success. But as I said already, I'd prefer it for the police to enforce the laws we already have. In my experience though that's not going to be easy.
And as col has said, I fail to see what the minimum age in other countries has got to do with it. They have lots of other laws that are different too.
I do hope it goes better for you than last time Ewan, and Strathturret's first line isn't some kind of premonition!
To me the reason that a 21yr age limit may work is because people go through a lot of changes in appearance between the ages of 18 and 21. It's easy to say "I thought he was 18, not 16." It's not so easy to say "I thought he was 21, not 16." If by raising our minimum drinking age to 21 we ensure fewer people under 18 are drinking then it's a success. But as I said already, I'd prefer it for the police to enforce the laws we already have. In my experience though that's not going to be easy.
And as col has said, I fail to see what the minimum age in other countries has got to do with it. They have lots of other laws that are different too.
Posted by: Piper, Michigan on 3:03pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Ironic that Scotland is considering upping the legal drinking age to 21. Just this week, an article on US national news reported on a study to decrease the legal drinking age to 18 in US. The reason was inability to enforce the law!
Ironic that Scotland is considering upping the legal drinking age to 21. Just this week, an article on US national news reported on a study to decrease the legal drinking age to 18 in US. The reason was inability to enforce the law!
Posted by: tris, scotland on 3:13pm Fri 21 Mar 08
If we have a problem with 12, 13 and 14 year olds drinking, then we need to deal with that. We have laws that say that this is illegal. We have laws that provide the basis for prosecution of people who sell the drink to the kids. It appears that we don't bother to use them.
How changing the law to make it illegal to drink until you are 21 will change that, I'm not completely sure.
We have a secondary problem of people prefectly legally drinking till they fall over and puke, or fight or have sex that they can't remember having. It's not illegal to drink till you fall over but it is illegal to sell drink to someone who is drunk. Clearly again, this law is not observed and the police do nothing about it.
It seems to me we have plenty of laws, and that the police are more interested in catching people doing 35 mph in a built up area. (Or in the case of Lothian and Borders, in their new logo and corporate image.)
Maybe politicians... and the rest of us..... need to ask them/our selves what it is about our society that makes life so foul, that the best option for many people from about 12 on, is to get so ripped that they don't know whether it's Tuesday or Iceland.
Maybe we need to do some sorting, then some law enforcing, instead of coming up with daft ideas about restricting adults' liberty even more that we currently do.
This is unworthy of the Scottish government.
If we have a problem with 12, 13 and 14 year olds drinking, then we need to deal with that. We have laws that say that this is illegal. We have laws that provide the basis for prosecution of people who sell the drink to the kids. It appears that we don't bother to use them.
How changing the law to make it illegal to drink until you are 21 will change that, I'm not completely sure.
We have a secondary problem of people prefectly legally drinking till they fall over and puke, or fight or have sex that they can't remember having. It's not illegal to drink till you fall over but it is illegal to sell drink to someone who is drunk. Clearly again, this law is not observed and the police do nothing about it.
It seems to me we have plenty of laws, and that the police are more interested in catching people doing 35 mph in a built up area. (Or in the case of Lothian and Borders, in their new logo and corporate image.)
Maybe politicians... and the rest of us..... need to ask them/our selves what it is about our society that makes life so foul, that the best option for many people from about 12 on, is to get so ripped that they don't know whether it's Tuesday or Iceland.
Maybe we need to do some sorting, then some law enforcing, instead of coming up with daft ideas about restricting adults' liberty even more that we currently do.
This is unworthy of the Scottish government.
Posted by: CC, Glasgow on 3:17pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Lots of comments here relating to that fact that children do drink before 18, but no-one questioning what the parents are doing about it.
If an under 18 is found drunk they shud b taken home to their parents and the parents fined on the spot for not being in charge of their children.
If parents can't act responsibly in making their children respect the law and respect the effect of alcohol then they themselves should be punished by being fined.
Strangely enough I was brought up properly and never drank before the age of 18, have never binge drunk and know how to behave in public.
Lots of comments here relating to that fact that children do drink before 18, but no-one questioning what the parents are doing about it.
If an under 18 is found drunk they shud b taken home to their parents and the parents fined on the spot for not being in charge of their children.
If parents can't act responsibly in making their children respect the law and respect the effect of alcohol then they themselves should be punished by being fined.
Strangely enough I was brought up properly and never drank before the age of 18, have never binge drunk and know how to behave in public.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 3:24pm Fri 21 Mar 08
This policy is someone's madness. In almost all things I back the SNP but this is insane. You don't solve a problem by only treating the symptoms. In Sweden alcohal is very expensive. My Swedish friends said that he and his friends bought a small glass of vodka, dipped tampons in it and then took the alcohal straight into the bloodstream anally. They got very drunk on a small amount of money! What's more it was dangerous!
In Spain, clubs are expensive for young people so they congregate in very large numbers in the streets and parks with really cheap booze and have endless confrontations with the police. For working people buying alcohal in bars or shops is really cheap compared to Scotland and you don't get drunk out of your mind neds attacking each other in city centres.
Raising the price of alcohal further is dangerous, it further alienates young people and solves nothing.
If you want to solve this problem SNP, stick to progressive social policies!
This policy is someone's madness. In almost all things I back the SNP but this is insane. You don't solve a problem by only treating the symptoms. In Sweden alcohal is very expensive. My Swedish friends said that he and his friends bought a small glass of vodka, dipped tampons in it and then took the alcohal straight into the bloodstream anally. They got very drunk on a small amount of money! What's more it was dangerous!
In Spain, clubs are expensive for young people so they congregate in very large numbers in the streets and parks with really cheap booze and have endless confrontations with the police. For working people buying alcohal in bars or shops is really cheap compared to Scotland and you don't get drunk out of your mind neds attacking each other in city centres.
Raising the price of alcohal further is dangerous, it further alienates young people and solves nothing.
If you want to solve this problem SNP, stick to progressive social policies!
Posted by: Observer, Montrose on 3:54pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Whilst civilized behaviour should prevail, the resurgence of puritanism is to be resisted. People have already noted a potential anomaly about being able to join the Army at 17, but not being able to drink alcohol until the curiously mystically-significa
nt age of 21. I note the SNP is keen to resurrect the historic Scottish Regiments: this is a laudable aim, but raising the drinking age to 21 would, I'm sure, drive most potential recruits to join current UK Regiments which are not normally stationed in Scotland and, in the Party's preferred future, would make joining the proposed Scottish Defence Force an unattractive option, compared to popping over the Border to enlist.
Whilst civilized behaviour should prevail, the resurgence of puritanism is to be resisted. People have already noted a potential anomaly about being able to join the Army at 17, but not being able to drink alcohol until the curiously mystically-significa
nt age of 21. I note the SNP is keen to resurrect the historic Scottish Regiments: this is a laudable aim, but raising the drinking age to 21 would, I'm sure, drive most potential recruits to join current UK Regiments which are not normally stationed in Scotland and, in the Party's preferred future, would make joining the proposed Scottish Defence Force an unattractive option, compared to popping over the Border to enlist.
Posted by: donnelly, dundee on 4:15pm Fri 21 Mar 08
I think its a great idea and would stop problem drinking and anti-social behavior overnight .... I also believe in fairies at the bottom of my garden ...
When are this lot going to get it through their thick heads sensible behavior in regard to alcohol is not actually linked to age ....ie ...lookaround Dundee (and most city centres) on a Friday and weekend night ?? ..its not underage drinkers you see making a complete pillock of themselves ?? is it ?
It is more deep veined into their attitude to social behavior and aka "respect" in general .... possibly thats why you can walk round 90% of Europian cities at night and not see the Brit Culture in effect ( unless it is a bunch of stupid brits .." out enjoying themselves " as they call it.
One effective course could be to use all these excess stealth camera we have to coduct spot checks on small stores selling illegal ,,,and then hit them with a large fine for first time offences ( including older people buying for other younger ones !!) ....and then follow up with plain clothes officers slamming down on Bars etc ...who cotinue to sell these stupid "shots" (s they call them) to persons obviously no longer fit to continue drinking ....
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