MPs fear Terror Bill switches power from Scots to English courts
Douglas Fraser: "Do vast swathes of England want to join Scotland?"
A constitutional row was brewing last night over the UK Government's planned Counter-Terrorism Bill, which, it is claimed, will drive a "coach and horses" through 300 years of Scotland's independent legal system if passed unchanged.
The bill, which among other things includes the controversial plan to increase pre-detention without charge and toughen up sentencing, states that proceedings for an alleged offence "may be taken at any place in the United Kingdom", raising worries that cases, which should be heard in Scotland, will be heard in England under a different legal system.
Concerned parties, including the Law Society of Scotland, fear, if unamended, the proposal will undermine the position of the Lord Advocate, whose prosecutorial independence is guaranteed by the 1998 Scotland Act, and the position of the High Court, which is protected by the 1707 Act of Union.
However, last night Scotland Office Minister David Cairns accused the UK Government's political opponents of "another example of a manufactured division between us on an issue where we need to stand together".
He added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
Concerns about the bill's impact on Scots law were raised yesterday in the Commons by Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrats' spokesman on Scotland, who talked of the "growing concern in Scotland" about the operation of the new bill and, in particular, Clause 27, which covers the issue of jurisdiction.
He asked Home Secretary Jacqui Smith if she understood the bill was "fraught with difficulty", adding: "Can she assure me if that does go on to the statute book, it will only be operated after very clear guidelines are agreed with the Lord Advocate?"
The Home Secretary, however, made no mention of guidelines, the Scottish legal system or the Lord Advocate, but replied: "It's important if there are linked attacks, for example, in London and in Scotland, that it's possible through the proposals we
are putting forward for both
of those linked cases to be
prosecuted in one place.
"That's what the universal jurisdiction we are proposing in the legislation would enable us to do. It makes sense when countering terrorism that we are able, wherever it is, to prosecute in the place where the investigation takes place."
The cases of the alleged failed terrorist attacks in Glasgow and London last summer have been dealt with together in London.
Mr Carmichael later told The Herald: "The concern is MI5 will just take people south of the border, that's where the suspects are questioned and that's where they are tried while Scots law is disregarded. The potential for it all going horribly wrong is massive."
Angus Robertson, SNP leader at Westminster, said: "It would be a fundamental undermining of the Scottish legal system, which is guaranteed by the Treaty of Union. It would drive a coach and horses through 300 years of the Scottish legal system in the UK."
Michael Clancy, director of law reform at the Law Society of Scotland, spoke of the need for "appropriate safeguards", adding: "The concerns are that, as it appears in the bill, it needs amendment to protect the prosecutorial independence of the Lord Advocate and the constitutional position of the High Court."
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Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:03am Tue 26 Feb 08
So westminster wants to break the treaty of union. Okay let them. If they are not willing to abide by the treaty of union then neither are we.
Can we have them up in the european court for this?
i.e they have broken the agreement so it is now null and void.
So westminster wants to break the treaty of union. Okay let them. If they are not willing to abide by the treaty of union then neither are we.
Can we have them up in the european court for this?
i.e they have broken the agreement so it is now null and void.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:05am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote]However, last night Scotland Office Minister David Cairns accused the UK Government's political opponents of "another example of a manufactured division between us on an issue where we need to stand together".[/quote] As equals, Mr Cairns, as equals. Why should English Law take precedence? Justify yourself and why are you unwilling to serve Scotland as your feeble boss Gazza Brown wants?
However, last night Scotland Office Minister David Cairns accused the UK Government's political opponents of "another example of a manufactured division between us on an issue where we need to stand together".
As equals, Mr Cairns, as equals. Why should English Law take precedence? Justify yourself and why are you unwilling to serve Scotland as your feeble boss Gazza Brown wants?
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:06am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote]He added: "[bold]The Scottish Executive[/bold] was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."[/quote]
Hello Mr Cairns ... there is now a [bold]Scottish Government[/bold] . Did you ask them?
He added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
Hello Mr Cairns ... there is now a
Scottish Government . Did you ask them?
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:10am Tue 26 Feb 08
so if i break a law that applies only to england in scotland then i can be tried in england?
How does that make sense.
so if i break a law that applies only to england in scotland then i can be tried in england?
How does that make sense.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:10am Tue 26 Feb 08
He added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
That's meant to reassure us? The Scottish Executive?
He added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
That's meant to reassure us? The Scottish Executive?
Posted by: Steve A, glasgow on 12:14am Tue 26 Feb 08
I hope cairns next shoite isa hedge hog with HICCUPS!
I hope cairns next shoite isa hedge hog with HICCUPS!
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:15am Tue 26 Feb 08
I do not for one second understand why they need this new law. The glasgow airport bombers were arrested in scotland and charged in england. This an attempt to control the scottihs legal system.
I do not for one second understand why they need this new law. The glasgow airport bombers were arrested in scotland and charged in england. This an attempt to control the scottihs legal system.
Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 12:16am Tue 26 Feb 08
Father Cairns is becoming a real menace - the worst traitor to his country since the ones who signed the Union. His "England knows best" attitude, however will be counter-productive for his beloved union in the end, and will only further the SNP cause as he becomes the most hated man in Scotland. The nincompoop dies not even know that the Scottish Executive no longer exists - that shows how out of touch he is!
Father Cairns is becoming a real menace - the worst traitor to his country since the ones who signed the Union. His "England knows best" attitude, however will be counter-productive for his beloved union in the end, and will only further the SNP cause as he becomes the most hated man in Scotland. The nincompoop dies not even know that the Scottish Executive no longer exists - that shows how out of touch he is!
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:16am Tue 26 Feb 08
Their "universal" jurisdiction isn't just about undermining Scots Law and our Legal system. It is about burying it altogether and applying English Law across the board. If this had existed before now I hope you all realise Al-Megrahi wouldn't have been given leave to appeal and would have been back in Libya by now ensuring the truth about Lockerbie will never come out and those documents will never be released either.
Their "universal" jurisdiction isn't just about undermining Scots Law and our Legal system. It is about burying it altogether and applying English Law across the board. If this had existed before now I hope you all realise Al-Megrahi wouldn't have been given leave to appeal and would have been back in Libya by now ensuring the truth about Lockerbie will never come out and those documents will never be released either.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:17am Tue 26 Feb 08
I assume when cairns talks about the scottish executive then he is speaking about jack mcconel et al. As that was the last time there was a scottish executive.
I assume when cairns talks about the scottish executive then he is speaking about jack mcconel et al. As that was the last time there was a scottish executive.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:17am Tue 26 Feb 08
BM will you please stop calling him that? It isn't needed.
BM will you please stop calling him that? It isn't needed.
Posted by: allymax, yuk on 12:20am Tue 26 Feb 08
"The concerns are that, as it appears in the bill, it needs amendment to protect the prosecutorial independence of the Lord Advocate and the constitutional position of the High Court."
Quite a statement; I doubt very much that angiolini is independent of westminster!
In-deed, she is the crown representative in Scotland. And, looking at her record so far she has introduced zero-tolerance, prosecuted more Scots citizens than any other Lord Advocate in Scotland, and the 1998 act gives her more power to execute these prosecutions.
No sir, this must be a westminster ploy to deceive the Scots public into taking the heat off her as she runs riot throughout Scotland causing mayhem and trouble. Divide and conquer the engerlish call it; it's what they've done for hundreds of years to all their colonies.
I believe we will see a barage of these so called McNuLab devious devices instigated on the Scots populace. Don't be fooled.
Vote SNP for a better, fairer independent Scotland.
"The concerns are that, as it appears in the bill, it needs amendment to protect the prosecutorial independence of the Lord Advocate and the constitutional position of the High Court."
Quite a statement; I doubt very much that angiolini is independent of westminster!
In-deed, she is the crown representative in Scotland. And, looking at her record so far she has introduced zero-tolerance, prosecuted more Scots citizens than any other Lord Advocate in Scotland, and the 1998 act gives her more power to execute these prosecutions.
No sir, this must be a westminster ploy to deceive the Scots public into taking the heat off her as she runs riot throughout Scotland causing mayhem and trouble. Divide and conquer the engerlish call it; it's what they've done for hundreds of years to all their colonies.
I believe we will see a barage of these so called McNuLab devious devices instigated on the Scots populace. Don't be fooled.
Vote SNP for a better, fairer independent Scotland.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:21am Tue 26 Feb 08
seeing as cairns says that this is "another example of a manufactured division between us on an issue where we need to stand together".
then he must mean the scottish parliament as Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrats' spokesman on Scotland, was the person who talked of the "growing concern in Scotland" about the operation of the new bill and, in particular, Clause 27, which covers the issue of jurisdiction.
Therefore cairns is not just against the snp he is against the whole scottish parliament.
seeing as cairns says that this is "another example of a manufactured division between us on an issue where we need to stand together".
then he must mean the scottish parliament as Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrats' spokesman on Scotland, was the person who talked of the "growing concern in Scotland" about the operation of the new bill and, in particular, Clause 27, which covers the issue of jurisdiction.
Therefore cairns is not just against the snp he is against the whole scottish parliament.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:22am Tue 26 Feb 08
BM i prefer mcchatterer cairns.
BM i prefer mcchatterer cairns.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:23am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote]However, last night Scotland Office Minister David Cairns accused the UK Government's political opponents of "another example of a manufactured division between us on an issue where we need to stand together"[/quote]
[bold]Does he or Doesn't he speak for the Uk Government anymore?[/bold]
Everytime he opens his mouth he seems to get shot down by either Wendy or Gordon..... maybe Blair is still pulling his strings...
However, last night Scotland Office Minister David Cairns accused the UK Government's political opponents of "another example of a manufactured division between us on an issue where we need to stand together"
Does he or Doesn't he speak for the Uk Government anymore?
Everytime he opens his mouth he seems to get shot down by either Wendy or Gordon..... maybe Blair is still pulling his strings...
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:26am Tue 26 Feb 08
Karin, my point is he isn't a priest so referring to him in those terms isn't appropriate.
Karin, my point is he isn't a priest so referring to him in those terms isn't appropriate.
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 12:32am Tue 26 Feb 08
It will be interesting to see what the Scottish High Court will make of this legislation.
Will they accept it? Or will they reject it?
Strange as it may seem, this could be the tipping point.
For me, Brown is a genius.
It will be interesting to see what the Scottish High Court will make of this legislation.
Will they accept it? Or will they reject it?
Strange as it may seem, this could be the tipping point.
For me, Brown is a genius.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:33am Tue 26 Feb 08
I would like to thank micheal settle for bringing this to our attention.
I would like to thank micheal settle for bringing this to our attention.
Posted by: Steve A, glasgow on 12:34am Tue 26 Feb 08
So strange scotland was attacked when it was, i mean it really demonstrated that scotland is still part of the uk.Question is who's best served by reminding us of that??????????OH and we wont be allowed to forget it either looking at all the smeato docs etc, just whits the story here?
So strange scotland was attacked when it was, i mean it really demonstrated that scotland is still part of the uk.Question is who's best served by reminding us of that??????????OH and we wont be allowed to forget it either looking at all the smeato docs etc, just whits the story here?
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:37am Tue 26 Feb 08
clare perhaps BM is refering to the canon law that dictates that once someone is a preist they are always a priest. So while legally he may not be father cairns religiously and in the eyes of the catholic church he is.
clare perhaps BM is refering to the canon law that dictates that once someone is a preist they are always a priest. So while legally he may not be father cairns religiously and in the eyes of the catholic church he is.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 12:39am Tue 26 Feb 08
The only way that someone stops being a participant in the catholic church is by death or excommunication. Why do you think people are lapsed catholics and not no longer catholic.
The only way that someone stops being a participant in the catholic church is by death or excommunication. Why do you think people are lapsed catholics and not no longer catholic.
Posted by: WJ, Ayrshire on 12:59am Tue 26 Feb 08
It's a classic ploy - if you lose control of the electorate, screw them through the legislature.
Democracy?.....Labou
r Party?........They'v
e lost all meaning of the concept.
It's a classic ploy - if you lose control of the electorate, screw them through the legislature.
Democracy?.....Labou
r Party?........They'v
e lost all meaning of the concept.
Posted by: wisnaeme, wisnae there on 1:13am Tue 26 Feb 08
I have no objection to co-operation between constituent parts of UK with regard to alleged law breakers or indeed in other matters of concern to all of us. Whether that be co-operation within the UK's boundaries, with Europe or with other nation states. providing it is within our jurisdiction and complies with our laws and laws enacted with treaties, conventions and understandings with other countries, states and nations out with Scotland
We have a judiciary in Scotland have we not? We have the capabilities of governance and the means of delivery of justice, be it civil or criminal, have we not? Perhaps it is less than perfect at times but it is our system and surely that system is capable of being reformed and adjusted to need within the the boundaries of Scotland. Does Westminster think we're incapable of enforcing our Scottish judicial system in the best wee country in the world? well according to 'Joke' who may have been involved in these manoeuvres by stealth.
Do we have confidence in Scotland that we are capable of decision making and enforcement of [bold]our[/bold] laws by our institutions?
On the whole, yes. Which is more than I can say for other arrangements of [bold]co- operation with other states recently.[/bold]
I'm sure the Dutch nation are so gratified and appreciative of those efforts by London recently.
Hello London , found those folk yet?
Isn't the sound of silence wonderful.
As ma maw would say, " Awae an $hite, London".
.
.
I have no objection to co-operation between constituent parts of UK with regard to alleged law breakers or indeed in other matters of concern to all of us. Whether that be co-operation within the UK's boundaries, with Europe or with other nation states. providing it is within our jurisdiction and complies with our laws and laws enacted with treaties, conventions and understandings with other countries, states and nations out with Scotland
We have a judiciary in Scotland have we not? We have the capabilities of governance and the means of delivery of justice, be it civil or criminal, have we not? Perhaps it is less than perfect at times but it is our system and surely that system is capable of being reformed and adjusted to need within the the boundaries of Scotland. Does Westminster think we're incapable of enforcing our Scottish judicial system in the best wee country in the world? well according to 'Joke' who may have been involved in these manoeuvres by stealth.
Do we have confidence in Scotland that we are capable of decision making and enforcement of
our laws by our institutions?
On the whole, yes. Which is more than I can say for other arrangements of
co- operation with other states recently.
I'm sure the Dutch nation are so gratified and appreciative of those efforts by London recently.
Hello London , found those folk yet?
Isn't the sound of silence wonderful.
As ma maw would say, " Awae an $hite, London".
.
.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 1:14am Tue 26 Feb 08
I wonder what David Cairns meant by
"The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
Is he referring to the previous Scottish Executive of
Labour sycophants or does he mean the current
SNP Scottish Government ? If the latter then of course
they would agree with anything and just rubber stamp
any Westminster orders. If the former, then if he can't
even call it by it's proper name (i.e. Government
not Executive) than I hardly think they would
have been able to reach a position of being
"completely content". David McChattering Cairn
has already been proven over the last couple
of weeks to be spineless worm so I am unclear
why anybody would be interested in his opinion.
I wonder what David Cairns meant by
"The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
Is he referring to the previous Scottish Executive of
Labour sycophants or does he mean the current
SNP Scottish Government ? If the latter then of course
they would agree with anything and just rubber stamp
any Westminster orders. If the former, then if he can't
even call it by it's proper name (i.e. Government
not Executive) than I hardly think they would
have been able to reach a position of being
"completely content". David McChattering Cairn
has already been proven over the last couple
of weeks to be spineless worm so I am unclear
why anybody would be interested in his opinion.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 1:30am Tue 26 Feb 08
Seems like every day we are assailed by a government that wants to curtail our civil liberties, reduce our economic potential, limit our Scottish identity, claw back devolved powers, subjugate our legal system, and rule in malignant corruption. Time for a change.
It is also time for Kenny tae get aff his erse and dae his joab! C'moan Kenny - whit the hell ur ye playin at? If ye let thum get away wae this yer no the lad ye're made oot tae be!
Seems like every day we are assailed by a government that wants to curtail our civil liberties, reduce our economic potential, limit our Scottish identity, claw back devolved powers, subjugate our legal system, and rule in malignant corruption. Time for a change.
It is also time for Kenny tae get aff his erse and dae his joab! C'moan Kenny - whit the hell ur ye playin at? If ye let thum get away wae this yer no the lad ye're made oot tae be!
Posted by: wisnaeme, wisnae there on 1:45am Tue 26 Feb 08
Aye, they're sleekit right enough doon South.
[bold]Hey, Abdebaset Ali Mohmet al-megrahi !!
Ah ken ye wur stitched up by oor justice system and thur pals of power and influence.
But do ye really, really fancy yer chances under English/ UK jurisprudence?
Ah'm sure they'll be more than helpful to that nice Mr Gadaffi.
Ah'm sure ye wull receive a warm welcome on yer return home as weel.
Tea and conversation with mine host in his wee tent, eh?
Ah kin jist picture it. Now about those alleged petty connections ye had with the CIA and Mossad, Mr Mehgrahi?[/bold]
.
Aye, they're sleekit right enough doon South.
Hey, Abdebaset Ali Mohmet al-megrahi !!
Ah ken ye wur stitched up by oor justice system and thur pals of power and influence.
But do ye really, really fancy yer chances under English/ UK jurisprudence?
Ah'm sure they'll be more than helpful to that nice Mr Gadaffi.
Ah'm sure ye wull receive a warm welcome on yer return home as weel.
Tea and conversation with mine host in his wee tent, eh?
Ah kin jist picture it. Now about those alleged petty connections ye had with the CIA and Mossad, Mr Mehgrahi?
.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 2:10am Tue 26 Feb 08
does anyone think there is any chance of taking this to the european court of human rights under article 5.
Article 5 – Right to liberty and security1
Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
the lawful arrest or detention of a person for non-compliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
does anyone think there is any chance of taking this to the european court of human rights under article 5.
Article 5 – Right to liberty and security1
Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
the lawful arrest or detention of a person for non-compliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 2:12am Tue 26 Feb 08
megrahi was tried under scots law at camp zeist. that means that he must have had to be tried under scots law because the crime was commited over or in scotland. So can we take them to court for trying to change the law or do we have to wait till someone is convicted and then they go for the human rights appeal.
megrahi was tried under scots law at camp zeist. that means that he must have had to be tried under scots law because the crime was commited over or in scotland. So can we take them to court for trying to change the law or do we have to wait till someone is convicted and then they go for the human rights appeal.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 2:22am Tue 26 Feb 08
I have tae say it - Ah'm a wee bit disappointed in Kenny's performance tae date. He's been much too accommodating. Remember this story? The solution that Kenny bought into was to make military bases in Scotland English territory so that an english coroner could hold a fatal accident inquiry here under English law!.
SNP Welcomes Support By MoD
WESTMINSTER - 2007-06-07
SNP Westminster Group Leader and Defence Spokesperson Angus Robertson MP has today (Thursday) welcomed the support of the UK Ministry of Defence into Scottish inquiries into overseas military deaths.
Earlier today the MoD and UK Ministry of Justice wrote to the SNP Scottish Executive supporting the proposals by Mr Robertson for Fatal Accident Inquiries to investigate the cause of service deaths abroad.
Under current Scottish law there is no provision for fatal accident inquiries into any deaths occurring outside of Scotland. Currently all inquiries take place in England at Coroners' Courts where there are delays of up to 5 years.
Mr Robertson said:
"I am pleased that the MoD is supporting this SNP initiative to help service families.
"After eight years of inaction by the Labour-Liberal Democrat administration, the new SNP government has acted to ensure that the Scottish legal system plays its part in investigating overseas military deaths.
"It may take some time to make the necessary and potentially complicated changes to the law, nevertheless I am confident that SNP Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill will deliver these important improvements."
ENDS
I have tae say it - Ah'm a wee bit disappointed in Kenny's performance tae date. He's been much too accommodating. Remember this story? The solution that Kenny bought into was to make military bases in Scotland English territory so that an english coroner could hold a fatal accident inquiry here under English law!.
SNP Welcomes Support By MoD
WESTMINSTER - 2007-06-07
SNP Westminster Group Leader and Defence Spokesperson Angus Robertson MP has today (Thursday) welcomed the support of the UK Ministry of Defence into Scottish inquiries into overseas military deaths.
Earlier today the MoD and UK Ministry of Justice wrote to the SNP Scottish Executive supporting the proposals by Mr Robertson for Fatal Accident Inquiries to investigate the cause of service deaths abroad.
Under current Scottish law there is no provision for fatal accident inquiries into any deaths occurring outside of Scotland. Currently all inquiries take place in England at Coroners' Courts where there are delays of up to 5 years.
Mr Robertson said:
"I am pleased that the MoD is supporting this SNP initiative to help service families.
"After eight years of inaction by the Labour-Liberal Democrat administration, the new SNP government has acted to ensure that the Scottish legal system plays its part in investigating overseas military deaths.
"It may take some time to make the necessary and potentially complicated changes to the law, nevertheless I am confident that SNP Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill will deliver these important improvements."
ENDS
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 2:23am Tue 26 Feb 08
Kenny also let the Glasgow bombers be tried in England. What's going on Kenny?
Kenny also let the Glasgow bombers be tried in England. What's going on Kenny?
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 2:26am Tue 26 Feb 08
I have a question? Say that a terrorist crime is commited in glasgow and london and the two crimes are linked. Say that the witnesses dont want to appear in england. Can the english court compel them to appear or would they have to go through a scottish court to get them to appear?
I have a question? Say that a terrorist crime is commited in glasgow and london and the two crimes are linked. Say that the witnesses dont want to appear in england. Can the english court compel them to appear or would they have to go through a scottish court to get them to appear?
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 2:26am Tue 26 Feb 08
If the witnesses didnt appear then that would be a breach of the human rights act.
If the witnesses didnt appear then that would be a breach of the human rights act.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 2:31am Tue 26 Feb 08
Karin - yer dain ma heid in! All good questions. Does Scotland have an extradition treaty with England? We need a brief.
Karin - yer dain ma heid in! All good questions. Does Scotland have an extradition treaty with England? We need a brief.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 2:34am Tue 26 Feb 08
scunnert we do need a brief where are we gonni get wan?
scunnert we do need a brief where are we gonni get wan?
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 2:36am Tue 26 Feb 08
Elish Angiolini? Nah!
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 2:40am Tue 26 Feb 08
Mungo Bovie QC would have helped but he's in London now I believe.
Mungo Bovie QC would have helped but he's in London now I believe.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 2:49am Tue 26 Feb 08
Mungo Bovey:
Year of Call: 1984
Year of Silk: 1998
Devil Masters: The Right Hon. The Lord Rodger of Earlsferry, Michael S. Jones Q.C.
Qualifications: LL.B University of Glasgow
Cases:
For a list of cases, please see CV (link to the right).
Further Information:
Door tenant at Tooks Chambers, London since start 2001
Member of Immigration Law Practitioners Association for many years
Consultant editor United Kingdom Human Rights Reports since 2000
Legal Assessor to discipline committee of the General Teaching Council for Scotland from 2001 to 2005
Chairman of Human Rights Committee of Faculty of Advocates since 2005
Member of the legal panel of the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland since 2005
Chairman of triathlonscotland October 2004 to October 2006; Secretary for five years before that
In 2005 and 2006 lectured on human rights as a Council of Europe expert in Kosovo (twice), Macedonia and Rostov-on-Don. The participants in the courses were judges, ombudsman staff and legal practitioners.
A good lad.
Mungo Bovey:
Year of Call: 1984
Year of Silk: 1998
Devil Masters: The Right Hon. The Lord Rodger of Earlsferry, Michael S. Jones Q.C.
Qualifications: LL.B University of Glasgow
Cases:
For a list of cases, please see CV (link to the right).
Further Information:
Door tenant at Tooks Chambers, London since start 2001
Member of Immigration Law Practitioners Association for many years
Consultant editor United Kingdom Human Rights Reports since 2000
Legal Assessor to discipline committee of the General Teaching Council for Scotland from 2001 to 2005
Chairman of Human Rights Committee of Faculty of Advocates since 2005
Member of the legal panel of the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland since 2005
Chairman of triathlonscotland October 2004 to October 2006; Secretary for five years before that
In 2005 and 2006 lectured on human rights as a Council of Europe expert in Kosovo (twice), Macedonia and Rostov-on-Don. The participants in the courses were judges, ombudsman staff and legal practitioners.
A good lad.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:01am Tue 26 Feb 08
Cairns The Terrier[quote]He added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."[/quote]When using the term "executive" is he referring to the previous adminstration, Labour, or is it a derogatory refernce to the SNP minority government?
It is very odd if that glaring discrepancy slipped past the SNP.
Cairns is proving to be potentially dangerous to both Scotland and the terms of the Union he employed to uphold.
Cairns The Terrier
He added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
When using the term "executive" is he referring to the previous adminstration, Labour, or is it a derogatory refernce to the SNP minority government?
It is very odd if that glaring discrepancy slipped past the SNP.
Cairns is proving to be potentially dangerous to both Scotland and the terms of the Union he employed to uphold.
Posted by: wisnaeme, wisnae there on 3:13am Tue 26 Feb 08
Karin:
The tragedy may have occurred in Scotland and citizens of that and other countries were unlawfully killed and many others are deeply affected for life by it.
...and many folk are more than a little dubious that the explained causes of that dreadful tragedy is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
The legend created and the suppositions inserted into the causes of , do not stand up to close scrutiny.
But remember where the supposed factual evidence for the planning and preparation was carried out. We have to date, the extremely dubious evidence of part of a timing mechanism, the previous owner or possessors having failed to claim it as belonging to themselves.
an analogy perhaps is required.
Just because it may look like a dog, bark like a dog does not necessarily prove beyond doubt that it is our concept of a dog. There are so many differing types of dog, you'll understand. Big ones, small ones, of differing colours and breeds. More information is required , more disinformation from experts on dogs is required to confirm to all and sundry that it is in fact, just a dog and not the allusion of a dog that many folk perceive it to be.
So was this timing mechanism part of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or was it manufactured as (perceived by many ) much of the legend was to suit with nobody willing or able to claim true ownership of it.
Karin:
The tragedy may have occurred in Scotland and citizens of that and other countries were unlawfully killed and many others are deeply affected for life by it.
...and many folk are more than a little dubious that the explained causes of that dreadful tragedy is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
The legend created and the suppositions inserted into the causes of , do not stand up to close scrutiny.
But remember where the supposed factual evidence for the planning and preparation was carried out. We have to date, the extremely dubious evidence of part of a timing mechanism, the previous owner or possessors having failed to claim it as belonging to themselves.
an analogy perhaps is required.
Just because it may look like a dog, bark like a dog does not necessarily prove beyond doubt that it is our concept of a dog. There are so many differing types of dog, you'll understand. Big ones, small ones, of differing colours and breeds. More information is required , more disinformation from experts on dogs is required to confirm to all and sundry that it is in fact, just a dog and not the allusion of a dog that many folk perceive it to be.
So was this timing mechanism part of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or was it manufactured as (perceived by many ) much of the legend was to suit with nobody willing or able to claim true ownership of it.
Posted by: Karin, glasgae. on 3:18am Tue 26 Feb 08
European law
European Union Regulations and many parts of the Treaty of Rome are directly applicable as law. EU directives passed by the Council of Ministers require member states to legislate to implement them.
Scottish courts are required to interpret legislation in a way compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights (an instrument of the Council of Europe not of the European Union). If the Scottish Parliament legislates contrary to the Convention the law can be struck down by the courts. Courts may make a declaration that an Act of the Westminster Parliament is incompatible with the Convention.
right so basically we need to find things that contravene the human rights act and take them to court. Lets start with the act of settlement.
European law
European Union Regulations and many parts of the Treaty of Rome are directly applicable as law. EU directives passed by the Council of Ministers require member states to legislate to implement them.
Scottish courts are required to interpret legislation in a way compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights (an instrument of the Council of Europe not of the European Union). If the Scottish Parliament legislates contrary to the Convention the law can be struck down by the courts. Courts may make a declaration that an Act of the Westminster Parliament is incompatible with the Convention.
right so basically we need to find things that contravene the human rights act and take them to court. Lets start with the act of settlement.
Posted by: wisnaeme, wisnae there on 3:19am Tue 26 Feb 08
Nae bad, Scunnert. Maybe we should have a second opinion.
Robbie the Pict perhaps?
.
Nae bad, Scunnert. Maybe we should have a second opinion.
Robbie the Pict perhaps?
.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 3:33am Tue 26 Feb 08
Does English Law trump Scots Law? So far Kenny's just bottled it.
Does English Law trump Scots Law? So far Kenny's just bottled it.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 3:39am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
Cairns The Terrier[quote]He added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."[/quote]When using the term "executive" is he referring to the previous adminstration, Labour, or is it a derogatory refernce to the SNP minority government?
It is very odd if that glaring discrepancy slipped past the SNP.
Cairns is proving to be potentially dangerous to both Scotland and the terms of the Union he employed to uphold.
[/quote] If it was agreed by the SNP Government perhaps it was
deliberate in that if it passes then the Act of Union is
invalidated, a nice finesse.
Of course the Act of Union has been broken so many times
it is already invalid except in the eyes of the Unionistas.
Courtesy of www.freescotland.com
:
Since 1707 there have been numerous breaches of this Treaty,
which lead to the conclusion that the treaty has become void and
invalid.
* Article VI, protected Scots agriculture from overseas competition.
Yet this was initially broken in 1846 with the Repeal of the
Corn Laws.
* Article VII, "the same excises upon all excisable liquors".
Excise duty discriminates against Scotch whisky and favours
imported wines and beer.
However, the British Govt sacrificed the largest part of Scots
European trade, that with Russia, to satisfy English
Anti-Bolshevism (c1918).
* Article XVI, preservation of a Scottish Mint.
Now abolished, with the monopolistic position of
The Bank of England having supremacy over Scots banks.
* Article XXII, rights of Scottish Royal Burghs to remain.
Abolished under local Govt reform in the 1920s and 1970s.
* Article XVIII, taxes in England and Scotland to be the same.
The Poll Tax (1989) illegally introduced a tax on Scotland that
was not applicable in England.
* Introduction of the English Law of Treason and the removal of Jacobites to stand trial in England.
Los Angeles wrote:
Cairns The TerrierHe added: "The Scottish Executive was involved fully in the drafting of the Counter-Terrorism Bill provisions and was completely content with them."
When using the term "executive" is he referring to the previous adminstration, Labour, or is it a derogatory refernce to the SNP minority government?
It is very odd if that glaring discrepancy slipped past the SNP.
Cairns is proving to be potentially dangerous to both Scotland and the terms of the Union he employed to uphold.
If it was agreed by the SNP Government perhaps it was
deliberate in that if it passes then the Act of Union is
invalidated, a nice finesse.
Of course the Act of Union has been broken so many times
it is already invalid except in the eyes of the Unionistas.
Courtesy of www.freescotland.com
:
Since 1707 there have been numerous breaches of this Treaty,
which lead to the conclusion that the treaty has become void and
invalid.
* Article VI, protected Scots agriculture from overseas competition.
Yet this was initially broken in 1846 with the Repeal of the
Corn Laws.
* Article VII, "the same excises upon all excisable liquors".
Excise duty discriminates against Scotch whisky and favours
imported wines and beer.
However, the British Govt sacrificed the largest part of Scots
European trade, that with Russia, to satisfy English
Anti-Bolshevism (c1918).
* Article XVI, preservation of a Scottish Mint.
Now abolished, with the monopolistic position of
The Bank of England having supremacy over Scots banks.
* Article XXII, rights of Scottish Royal Burghs to remain.
Abolished under local Govt reform in the 1920s and 1970s.
* Article XVIII, taxes in England and Scotland to be the same.
The Poll Tax (1989) illegally introduced a tax on Scotland that
was not applicable in England.
* Introduction of the English Law of Treason and the removal of Jacobites to stand trial in England.
Posted by: Peter Cherbi, Edinburgh on 3:41am Tue 26 Feb 08
Here too .. although more coverage in the Herald version.
It still boils down to scaremongering from the legal establishment, notably Michael Clancy and the Law Society of Scotland who have their own problems just now.
Rather than fight each other, I think we could resolve this with a more capable Justice Secretary, and let Scotland be run by the Government we voted for, rather than this spin & interference from the legal profession who have plenty of their own problems just now.
Here too .. although more coverage in the Herald version.
It still boils down to scaremongering from the legal establishment, notably Michael Clancy and the Law Society of Scotland who have their own problems just now.
Rather than fight each other, I think we could resolve this with a more capable Justice Secretary, and let Scotland be run by the Government we voted for, rather than this spin & interference from the legal profession who have plenty of their own problems just now.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 3:46am Tue 26 Feb 08
Traquir, Alba on 3:39am today;
Good information Traquir. My worry is that far from invalidating the Act of Union it is setting a precedent that Scots Law is subordinate to English Law. If this is the case we will be trapped in this loveless marriage that is the "Union' without recourse to a divorce.
Traquir, Alba on 3:39am today;
Good information Traquir. My worry is that far from invalidating the Act of Union it is setting a precedent that Scots Law is subordinate to English Law. If this is the case we will be trapped in this loveless marriage that is the "Union' without recourse to a divorce.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 3:47am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Peter Cherbi[/bold] wrote:
Here too .. although more coverage in the Herald version.
It still boils down to scaremongering from the legal establishment, notably Michael Clancy and the Law Society of Scotland who have their own problems just now.
Rather than fight each other, I think we could resolve this with a more capable Justice Secretary, and let Scotland be run by the Government we voted for, rather than this spin & interference from the legal profession who have plenty of their own problems just now.[/quote] Who would you recommend Peter?
Peter Cherbi wrote:
Here too .. although more coverage in the Herald version.
It still boils down to scaremongering from the legal establishment, notably Michael Clancy and the Law Society of Scotland who have their own problems just now.
Rather than fight each other, I think we could resolve this with a more capable Justice Secretary, and let Scotland be run by the Government we voted for, rather than this spin & interference from the legal profession who have plenty of their own problems just now.
Who would you recommend Peter?
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 3:48am Tue 26 Feb 08
Peter - we have been talking on the Scotsman - I post there as An Beal Bacht.
Peter - we have been talking on the Scotsman - I post there as An Beal Bacht.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:54am Tue 26 Feb 08
Traquir Alba[quote]Of course the Act of Union has been broken so many times it is already invalid except in the eyes of the Unionistas.[/quote] True. And many thanks for the historical info.
You can add to that the first Scottish citizen who appealed his conviction to the House of Lords and they accepted the approach.
I guess Westminster are so used to ignoring the constuent clauses of the Act it comes as a suprise to have their sanguinity challenged.
Knowing we have weasels in our midst of the likes of Cairns is both dispiriting and infuriating.
Traquir Alba
Of course the Act of Union has been broken so many times it is already invalid except in the eyes of the Unionistas.
True. And many thanks for the historical info.
You can add to that the first Scottish citizen who appealed his conviction to the House of Lords and they accepted the approach.
I guess Westminster are so used to ignoring the constuent clauses of the Act it comes as a suprise to have their sanguinity challenged.
Knowing we have weasels in our midst of the likes of Cairns is both dispiriting and infuriating.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 4:07am Tue 26 Feb 08
The only one whose really working this problem is Karin. Karin I am not a lawyer but give me something to go after and I will google it to hell and back. Organize me!
The only one whose really working this problem is Karin. Karin I am not a lawyer but give me something to go after and I will google it to hell and back. Organize me!
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 4:16am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Scunnert[/bold] wrote:
Traquir, Alba on 3:39am today;
Good information Traquir. My worry is that far from invalidating the Act of Union it is setting a precedent that Scots Law is subordinate to English Law. If this is the case we will be trapped in this loveless marriage that is the "Union' without recourse to a divorce.[/quote] Yep you are correct and this should be fought tooth and nail.
Clearly allowing us to retain a separate Scottish Legal system
has been a thorn in England's side since 1707. The thought
of being trapped in a "loveless marriage that is the Union'"
is the ultimate nightmare which will give us the strength
to fight any such attempts to subordinate Scottish Law.
I only hope I can sleep tonight after you have put that
nightmare vision in my head :)
Scunnert wrote:
Traquir, Alba on 3:39am today;
Good information Traquir. My worry is that far from invalidating the Act of Union it is setting a precedent that Scots Law is subordinate to English Law. If this is the case we will be trapped in this loveless marriage that is the "Union' without recourse to a divorce.
Yep you are correct and this should be fought tooth and nail.
Clearly allowing us to retain a separate Scottish Legal system
has been a thorn in England's side since 1707. The thought
of being trapped in a "loveless marriage that is the Union'"
is the ultimate nightmare which will give us the strength
to fight any such attempts to subordinate Scottish Law.
I only hope I can sleep tonight after you have put that
nightmare vision in my head :)
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 4:19am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Scunnert[/bold] wrote:
The only one whose really working this problem is Karin. Karin I am not a lawyer but give me something to go after and I will google it to hell and back. Organize me![/quote] Start with www.realmofscotland.
com. The way that Dr James Wilkie
and his associates at the Scottish-UN Commission
played the legal/political game to Scotland's advantage is
a master stroke and a great example of how to play the
system to your advantage.
Scunnert wrote:
The only one whose really working this problem is Karin. Karin I am not a lawyer but give me something to go after and I will google it to hell and back. Organize me!
Start with www.realmofscotland.
com. The way that Dr James Wilkie
and his associates at the Scottish-UN Commission
played the legal/political game to Scotland's advantage is
a master stroke and a great example of how to play the
system to your advantage.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 4:19am Tue 26 Feb 08
Ye'll need aw the rest ye can get for what's comin.
Ye'll need aw the rest ye can get for what's comin.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 4:22am Tue 26 Feb 08
Traquir, Alba on 4:19am toda
Been there already - Aye. It's a great story. One that should be told.
Traquir, Alba on 4:19am toda
Been there already - Aye. It's a great story. One that should be told.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 4:56am Tue 26 Feb 08
The Scottish MPs who collaborated in English Terror bombing should be tried in the Hague along with their co Terrorists.
The Scottish MPs who collaborated in English Terror bombing should be tried in the Hague along with their co Terrorists.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 4:56am Tue 26 Feb 08
The Scottish MPs who collaborated in English Terror bombing should be tried in the Hague along with their co Terrorists.
The Scottish MPs who collaborated in English Terror bombing should be tried in the Hague along with their co Terrorists.
Posted by: wisnaeme, wisnae there on 5:09am Tue 26 Feb 08
[quote]
Of course the Act of Union has been broken so many times it is already invalid except in the eyes of the unistas
[/quote]
[quote]
...the Law Society of Scotland
[/quote]
[quote]
Knowing we have weasels in our mist the likes of Cairns is both dispiriting and infuriating.
[/quote]
Aye but Cairns and the like are merely mouthpieces doing their master's bidding. It's those in the shadows manipulating the likes of Cairns that should cause sleepless nights.
As for the other two quotes above; Have I mentioned the Speculative Debating Society of Edinburgh?
Some folk suggest they are merely a private, men only, debating club.
Aye right.
Of course the Act of Union has been broken so many times it is already invalid except in the eyes of the unistas
...the Law Society of Scotland
Knowing we have weasels in our mist the likes of Cairns is both dispiriting and infuriating.
Aye but Cairns and the like are merely mouthpieces doing their master's bidding. It's those in the shadows manipulating the likes of Cairns that should cause sleepless nights.
As for the other two quotes above; Hav
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