Scotching the myth
DAVID LEASK and DOUGLAS FRASER
A series of myths about Scotland's financial position in the United Kingdom are exploded today in a special investigation by The Herald.
The research represents a vital contribution to a debate over whether Scotland should take on more tax-raising powers or become independent. Our findings come amid a growing clamour from English politicians and the London-based media to curb Scotland's £26bn spending grant from the Treasury.
But, as The Herald shows, much of this mischief is based not on facts but a series of myths, mistakes and misconceptions.
Our research scotches five key myths, concluding that Scotland does well in some ways, but does not get special treatment within the UK. Scotland, with pockets of deprivation, one-third of the UK's land-mass and far-flung communities, does indeed receive substantial state spending, but its average of £9631 public money per head is still less than London's at £9748 or Northern Ireland's £10,271.
Latest estimates show the tax take from Scotland - buoyed by the financial success of companies such as Royal Bank of Scotland - is higher than anywhere outside London. Arguments rage over North Sea oil and gas, but there is no doubt revenue from the natural resources found in waters off Scotland is being used fill the coffers of the UK exchequer.
While cities such as Glasgow have high levels of incapacity benefit, the overall welfare bill at £3086 per head is actually lower in Scotland than in swaths of northern England.
Public services are a mixed picture. Some have claimed Scotland gets free medical prescriptions, free school meals and has a world-leading health service, but only Wales has free prescriptions and the Scottish Government does not currently fund free school meals. It is true the Scottish Parliament has delivered a free care for the elderly package, but the flagship policy of devolution has been dogged by waiting lists and squabbles over funding. NHS waiting lists are no shorter in Scotland.
Gordon Brown's elevation to Prime Minister and Alistair Darling's promotion to Chancellor raised the temperature.With two Scots in Downing Street, some politicians and the London-based media have launched political attacks. Journalist Kelvin MacKenzie provocatively told a TV debate: "The Scots exist solely on the handouts of the clever English generating wealth in London and the south-east."
It is notoriously difficult to disentangle the UK's tax and spending totals to discover where the winners and losers lie. However, our study concludes that far from being "subsidy junkies", Scots pay their own way.
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Posted by: OHO, Glasgow on 12:13am Fri 2 Nov 07
Let me get this right - the Herald's investigation proves that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK coffers, and therefore independence would be beneficial - and yet this article is still pitched in a way that tones down that message and presents a "mibees aye, mibbees no" summation. How hard is it for this newspaper to come out and admit that they have done the sums and the Nats are right?
Could someone send a copy of their findings to Questiontime, with a special copy to Edwina Currie?
Let me get this right - the Herald's investigation proves that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK coffers, and therefore independence would be beneficial - and yet this article is still pitched in a way that tones down that message and presents a "mibees aye, mibbees no" summation. How hard is it for this newspaper to come out and admit that they have done the sums and the Nats are right?
Could someone send a copy of their findings to Questiontime, with a special copy to Edwina Currie?
Posted by: James, Lanarkshire on 12:23am Fri 2 Nov 07
This analysis will give us some comfort here in Scotland but when will it sink in to English brains, if ever?
This analysis will give us some comfort here in Scotland but when will it sink in to English brains, if ever?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:24am Fri 2 Nov 07
The [italic]Herald[/italic] proclaims[quote]Far from being "subsidy junkies", Scots pay their own way.[/quote] Well done [italic]Herald[/italic] staff!
Any chance you can ensure your research is quoted in the London press and on radio and television? Send a copy to Paxman's editor.
The
Herald proclaims
Far from being "subsidy junkies", Scots pay their own way.
Well done
Herald staff!
Any chance you can ensure your research is quoted in the London press and on radio and television? Send a copy to Paxman's editor.
Posted by: Addison De Witt on 12:25am Fri 2 Nov 07
Alex Salmond who used to be the chief economist for the
Royal Bank of Scotland, knows all about facts and figures.
He knows that Westminster has been cooking the books for decades
Every cloud has a silver lining.
The London press and media stirring up friction, tension and
resentment against the Scottish Labour Mafia and the Union.
Gordon Brown's worst nightmare is comming true .
The Independence timetable plan is right on schedule.
Alex Salmond who used to be the chief economist for the
Royal Bank of Scotland, knows all about facts and figures.
He knows that Westminster has been cooking the books for decades
Every cloud has a silver lining.
The London press and media stirring up friction, tension and
resentment against the Scottish Labour Mafia and the Union.
Gordon Brown's worst nightmare is comming true .
The Independence timetable plan is right on schedule.
Posted by: Archie, Argyll on 12:26am Fri 2 Nov 07
OHO
At least it's been admitted and published, thats a fair bit of an improvement.
These two guys should hing aboot together a bit merr often.
It seems to have had a positive effect on the published material compared with some recent stuff.
May that continue.
Cheers.
OHO
At least it's been admitted and published, thats a fair bit of an improvement.
These two guys should hing aboot together a bit merr often.
It seems to have had a positive effect on the published material compared with some recent stuff.
May that continue.
Cheers.
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 12:40am Fri 2 Nov 07
Well done, Mr Fraser (now that's a comment I never thought I would make). Along with Mr Leask you set out a compelling case for fiscal autonomy.
There is still a tinge of cringe in your writing, but overall this is a vast improvement over some of your previous tortuous Union-slanted articles.
Well done, Mr Fraser (now that's a comment I never thought I would make). Along with Mr Leask you set out a compelling case for fiscal autonomy.
There is still a tinge of cringe in your writing, but overall this is a vast improvement over some of your previous tortuous Union-slanted articles.
Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 12:42am Fri 2 Nov 07
Thank you Glasgow Herald, I take back (almost) everything I said. I will buy a copy tomorrow, I promise. Bugger it, keep things on an even keel and I'll subscribe! Scotland needs an independent quality daily.
Thank you Glasgow Herald, I take back (almost) everything I said. I will buy a copy tomorrow, I promise. Bugger it, keep things on an even keel and I'll subscribe! Scotland needs an independent quality daily.
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 12:46am Fri 2 Nov 07
I wonder how long the support for independence will remain at "10 year low" Ha, ha ; - )
I wonder how long the support for independence will remain at "10 year low" Ha, ha ; - )
Posted by: Scunnert, travelling in Nihlon on 12:48am Fri 2 Nov 07
So, Davie and Doogie - where are the numbers. You can't just say "we've done the sums". Not that I don't believe the premise. I'd just like to know by how much Scotland subsidizes England.
So, Davie and Doogie - where are the numbers. You can't just say "we've done the sums". Not that I don't believe the premise. I'd just like to know by how much Scotland subsidizes England.
Posted by: Gr8 on 12:50am Fri 2 Nov 07
Fantastic news, a newspaper does some real investigation and it turns out that Westminster have been cooking the books (as if we didn't already know that), front page news and a job well done by the Herald, congratulations! Roll on the next elections!
Fantastic news, a newspaper does some real investigation and it turns out that Westminster have been cooking the books (as if we didn't already know that), front page news and a job well done by the Herald, congratulations! Roll on the next elections!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:53am Fri 2 Nov 07
Scunnert asks[quote]where are the numbers.[/quote][bold] On a the thread entitled: [italic]Why are the figured peddled by Scotland's critics a myth?[/bold] [/italic] I've just printed out all the pages. Great. More ammo!
Scunnert asks
where are the numbers.
On a the thread entitled: Why are the figured peddled by Scotland's critics a myth? I've just printed out all the pages. Great. More ammo!
Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 12:56am Fri 2 Nov 07
Scunnert, old son - there's been a quantum shift here, can't you encourage them a bit for a wee while?
Scunnert, old son - there's been a quantum shift here, can't you encourage them a bit for a wee while?
Posted by: Baz, Inverclyde on 12:58am Fri 2 Nov 07
So will this make our foreign (English) readers happy? How about the even more deluded ones from the U.S.A. who try to get their tuppenceworth in most days? Read and learn. In fact, read it and weep.
So will this make our foreign (English) readers happy? How about the even more deluded ones from the U.S.A. who try to get their tuppenceworth in most days? Read and learn. In fact, read it and weep.
Posted by: John Saultire, Scotland on 1:05am Fri 2 Nov 07
The article is too coy. [bold]Scotland PAYS ITS WAY[/bold] is the almost hidden theme. Just like the football balls up the Tory presiding Officer was at fault but the press gives the impression that Alex Salmond made the mistake.
The article is too coy.
Scotland PAYS ITS WAY is the almost hidden theme. Just like the football balls up the Tory presiding Officer was at fault but the press gives the impression that Alex Salmond made the mistake.
Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 1:19am Fri 2 Nov 07
John
It's not coy - it's balanced
John
It's not coy - it's balanced
Posted by: Doonhamer, Dumfries on 1:25am Fri 2 Nov 07
Where are the BritNats now? The silence is defeaning. Finally the debate has been put to rest. The only item in question now is how much are we subsidizing Westminster. If we are net contributors without oil being counted, can you imagine what we are losing from oil, fisheries, power generation, water. etc.
Where are the BritNats now? The silence is defeaning. Finally the debate has been put to rest. The only item in question now is how much are we subsidizing Westminster. If we are net contributors without oil being counted, can you imagine what we are losing from oil, fisheries, power generation, water. etc.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:34am Fri 2 Nov 07
John Says[quote]Just like the football balls up the Tory presiding Officer was at fault[/quote] That piece appears to have been pulled off the board. And Wullie is right; assuming the [italic]Herald's[/italic] research is not faulty, the most we can expect is that the print it and disseminate it as much as possible.
It won't stop the mischievous myth makers because for too long they have had the field to themselves. However, now we have real ammo to counter opponents claims, and at last the non-economists among us - which is almost all of us - can quote up-to-date facts and figures.
John Says
Just like the football balls up the Tory presiding Officer was at fault
That piece appears to have been pulled off the board. And Wullie is right; assuming the
Herald's research is not faulty, the most we can expect is that the print it and disseminate it as much as possible.
It won't stop the mischievous myth makers because for too long they have had the field to themselves. However, now we have real ammo to counter opponents claims, and at last the non-economists among us - which is almost all of us - can quote up-to-date facts and figures.
Posted by: Wullie Pullar, Airstrip One on 1:49am Fri 2 Nov 07
LA
Speaking of dissemination, how about someone posting a link over at the Hootsmon? I tried but I'm being moderated at the moment because I'm a bad boy
LA
Speaking of dissemination, how about someone posting a link over at the Hootsmon? I tried but I'm being moderated at the moment because I'm a bad boy
Posted by: Diomedes Kane, Glasgow on 2:01am Fri 2 Nov 07
This article will have absolutely zero impact on English opinion, since on the occasions the English are not using Scotland as an excuse to indulge in their quaint traditional racist xenophobic whinging and complaining they behave as if they know more about the dark side of the Moon than they know about Scotland. I doubt there is more than a handful of English people who even know the Herald exists. Although I'm sure all the ignorance and prejudice is all just them having a bit of a laugh.
This article will have absolutely zero impact on English opinion, since on the occasions the English are not using Scotland as an excuse to indulge in their quaint traditional racist xenophobic whinging and complaining they behave as if they know more about the dark side of the Moon than they know about Scotland. I doubt there is more than a handful of English people who even know the Herald exists. Although I'm sure all the ignorance and prejudice is all just them having a bit of a laugh.
Posted by: John F on 2:03am Fri 2 Nov 07
Arguments rage over North Sea oil and gas, but there is no doubt revenue from the natural resources found in waters off Scotland is being used fill the coffers of the UK exchequer = Excellent News.
Arguments rage over North Sea oil and gas, but there is no doubt revenue from the natural resources found in waters off Scotland is being used fill the coffers of the UK exchequer = Excellent News.
Posted by: Jimbo on 2:42am Fri 2 Nov 07
I agree with OHO and Curley Bill. The report comes across as toned down, as if it hurts to be totally honest and tell the whole truth. By how much does Scotland subsidise the UK? It still reeks with a bit of cringe.
I suppose the fact that they've published it must go in their favour but I'm not going to rush out and start buying this paper again on the strength of this one article. I don't think this leopard has changed his spots. I'll wait and see if they prove me wrong first. Probably more to do with sales being down or a call from Gordon, or both.
I agree with OHO and Curley Bill. The report comes across as toned down, as if it hurts to be totally honest and tell the whole truth. By how much does Scotland subsidise the UK? It still reeks with a bit of cringe.
I suppose the fact that they've published it must go in their favour but I'm not going to rush out and start buying this paper again on the strength of this one article. I don't think this leopard has changed his spots. I'll wait and see if they prove me wrong first. Probably more to do with sales being down or a call from Gordon, or both.
Posted by: Summers, England on 3:38am Fri 2 Nov 07
Quite amusing reading most of the comments about this dross. Be careful what you ask for, as they say, you might just get it! Your beloved English neighbours won't take make more of your constant whining, hatred, inferiority complexes and selfishness for much longer I doubt.
Quite amusing reading most of the comments about this dross. Be careful what you ask for, as they say, you might just get it! Your beloved English neighbours won't take make more of your constant whining, hatred, inferiority complexes and selfishness for much longer I doubt.
Posted by: Addison De Witt on 3:54am Fri 2 Nov 07
Summers England
Have you ever seen a UFO. ??
Summers England
Have you ever seen a UFO. ??
Posted by: Charles McLaren, Canada on 3:59am Fri 2 Nov 07
What is also missed is that many Scottish businesses have relocated their head offices to London over the past sixty years
and are considered English companies. This came about as a result of the economic and political centralism that worked to keep Scotland down and to favour the south of England where the large population resulted in political domination.
As a young man I was proud to support Scottish Nationalism because it made sense. I always found the superior attitude of the English and their disdain for Scots quite disgusting.
Finally, has the Herald come to the realization that an independent Scotland is a future reality and are planning to become the real voice of this new and wonderful Scoland.
Oh I wish I lived back in Glasgow where I could work towards our glorious speration.
What is also missed is that many Scottish businesses have relocated their head offices to London over the past sixty years
and are considered English companies. This came about as a result of the economic and political centralism that worked to keep Scotland down and to favour the south of England where the large population resulted in political domination.
As a young man I was proud to support Scottish Nationalism because it made sense. I always found the superior attitude of the English and their disdain for Scots quite disgusting.
Finally, has the Herald come to the realization that an independent Scotland is a future reality and are planning to become the real voice of this new and wonderful Scoland.
Oh I wish I lived back in Glasgow where I could work towards our glorious speration.
Posted by: Ahlike Snotters on 4:45am Fri 2 Nov 07
Why not just stay where you are and work for Quebec's glorious separation? You're just another plastic patriot
Why not just stay where you are and work for Quebec's glorious separation? You're just another plastic patriot
Posted by: Who gives a....., Glasgow on 4:54am Fri 2 Nov 07
This finally blows open the myths expounded by Labour (and Conservatives) the propaganda peddled, and the sowing of seeds of misinformation. You reap what you sow.
This gives credence to the Independence calls of 25 years ago, regarding Oil, as revealed by the freedom of information act, and access to hitherto secret Downing Street documentation, revealing to (US, you am me, Joe-) the public last year (much against the wishes of Westminster Labour) that Labour and Whitehall have known all along that Scotland could go it alone.
Since that time, until the present day, they have actively been exercising propaganda to put Scotland down, regarding Scotland’s ability to stand on its own feet if Oil is in the equation.
For every voter in Scotland, please..... join up the dots! Use the brain cells and remember what has been done in very recent history. Think of the words of the song we so proudly sing, “Flower of Scotland” - leopards do not change their spots. Particularly not political leopards.
Well written The Herald
This finally blows open the myths expounded by Labour (and Conservatives) the propaganda peddled, and the sowing of seeds of misinformation. You reap what you sow.
This gives credence to the Independence calls of 25 years ago, regarding Oil, as revealed by the freedom of information act, and access to hitherto secret Downing Street documentation, revealing to (US, you am me, Joe-) the public last year (much against the wishes of Westminster Labour) that Labour and Whitehall have known all along that Scotland could go it alone.
Since that time, until the present day, they have actively been exercising propaganda to put Scotland down, regarding Scotland’s ability to stand on its own feet if Oil is in the equation.
For every voter in Scotland, please..... join up the dots! Use the brain cells and remember what has been done in very recent history. Think of the words of the song we so proudly sing, “Flower of Scotland” - leopards do not change their spots. Particularly not political leopards.
Well written The Herald
Posted by: William Alexander, Delta, Canada on 5:02am Fri 2 Nov 07
We don't need to work on Quebec separation as they are doing an efficient job by themselves. That leaves us free to help other separation provinces like the English Province known as "Scotland"
We don't need to work on Quebec separation as they are doing an efficient job by themselves. That leaves us free to help other separation provinces like the English Province known as "Scotland"
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 5:04am Fri 2 Nov 07
Ahlike Spouting Inanities Thinks (a wee bit) [quote]Why not just stay where you are and work for Quebec's glorious separation?You're just another plastic patriot[/quote]He demonstrates a d*amn sight more integrity than you.
You're the sort of fool who would tell Robert Louis Stevenson to stay where he is and go fight for the Samoans.
Ahlike Spouting Inanities Thinks (a wee bit)
Why not just stay where you are and work for Quebec's glorious separation?You're just another plastic patriot
He demonstrates a d*amn sight more integrity than you.
You're the sort of fool who would tell Robert Louis Stevenson to stay where he is and go fight for the Samoans.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 5:07am Fri 2 Nov 07
A Twit Called Summers Says[quote]Your beloved English neighbours won't take make more of your constant whining, hatred, inferiority complexes and selfishness for much longer I doubt.[/quote]I really don't think you should talk about Jersey folk in that manner.
A Twit Called Summers Says
Your beloved English neighbours won't take make more of your constant whining, hatred, inferiority complexes and selfishness for much longer I doubt.
I really don't think you should talk about Jersey folk in that manner.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 5:18am Fri 2 Nov 07
Investigative Journalism Is Not Dead[quote]"Scotching the Myth" - by DAVID LEASK and DOUGLAS FRASER[/quote] [bold]Our very own Carl Berstein and Bob Woodward.[/bold]
Good work, lads. More please....
Investigative Journalism Is Not Dead
"Scotching the Myth" - by DAVID LEASK and DOUGLAS FRASER
Our very own Carl Berstein and Bob Woodward.
Good work, lads. More please....
Posted by: Tom, ENGLAND on 5:23am Fri 2 Nov 07
Diomedes Kane, I am English and proud of it, but I'm not racist, xenophobic, or whinging. I lived in Scotland and was told to GO HOME on so many occasions (thats put politely) Yet I live in a small village in Devon and in my street there are 3 Scottish families. I never tell them to GO HOME and yet you call us xenophobic. But, I'm a Unionist and an Internationalist, not a narrow minded nationalist
Diomedes Kane, I am English and proud of it, but I'm not racist, xenophobic, or whinging. I lived in Scotland and was told to GO HOME on so many occasions (thats put politely) Yet I live in a small village in Devon and in my street there are 3 Scottish families. I never tell them to GO HOME and yet you call us xenophobic. But, I'm a Unionist and an Internationalist, not a narrow minded nationalist
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 5:48am Fri 2 Nov 07
English Tom[quote]But, I'm a Unionist and an Internationalist, not a narrow minded nationalist[/quote]I'm sorry you have met small-mindedness from a few of my countrymen. However, describing Scots as "racist, xenophobic, and whinging" won't win you any adherents to your point of view.
I remind you that nationalism did your country a lot of good. It gave rise to your best composers, painters, and romantic novelists. On the other hand, you squandered it in India, then Ireland, by treating the inhabitants of those countries as serfs and subservient.
Many of your Unionist confederates are less of an internationalist than you, a lot less. They endeavour to stop immigration, even those genuinely seeking asylum, and want rid of EEC "interference," as they see it.
English Tom
But, I'm a Unionist and an Internationalist, not a narrow minded nationalist
I'm sorry you have met small-mindedness from a few of my countrymen. However, describing Scots as "racist, xenophobic, and whinging" won't win you any adherents to your point of view.
I remind you that nationalism did your country a lot of good. It gave rise to your best composers, painters, and romantic novelists. On the other hand, you squandered it in India, then Ireland, by treating the inhabitants of those countries as serfs and subservient.
Many of your Unionist confederates are less of an internationalist than you, a lot less. They endeavour to stop immigration, even those genuinely seeking asylum, and want rid of EEC "interference," as they see it.
Posted by: Im not really here on 6:03am Fri 2 Nov 07
Hell's teeth. You mean Ekwatch and all the other unionist "economists" have been WRONG. Even the bleak Prof. Midwinter????
You mean the SNP have been telling the TRUTH. NOW I really DO think the Sky will fall down.
You see, of course, what is happening. The unionists see that Scotland is not likely to "win" Independence on their own, but rather they will be "pushed" into it by England as a result of the high publicity Sir Ek and the SNP are getting. SO THEY HAVE TO CALM THE ENGLISH DOWN.
The Scottish Unionists are scared of the ENGLISH who, I predict, will insist on Scottish Independence.
Hell's teeth. You mean Ekwatch and all the other unionist "economists" have been WRONG. Even the bleak Prof. Midwinter????
You mean the SNP have been telling the TRUTH. NOW I really DO think the Sky will fall down.
You see, of course, what is happening. The unionists see that Scotland is not likely to "win" Independence on their own, but rather they will be "pushed" into it by England as a result of the high publicity Sir Ek and the SNP are getting. SO THEY HAVE TO CALM THE ENGLISH DOWN.
The Scottish Unionists are scared of the ENGLISH who, I predict, will insist on Scottish Independence.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 6:07am Fri 2 Nov 07
I'm Not Here Says[quote]You see, of course, what is happening. The unionists see that Scotland is not likely to "win" Independence on their own, but rather they will be "pushed" into it by England[/quote] Aye, they are forever grabbing the credit. Typical.
I'm Not Here Says
You see, of course, what is happening. The unionists see that Scotland is not likely to "win" Independence on their own, but rather they will be "pushed" into it by England
Aye, they are forever grabbing the credit. Typical.
Posted by: Tru Scot, Over Here on 6:11am Fri 2 Nov 07
Things they are a changing. Here people we have a newspaper saying that Scotland pays it's own way, something that any self respecting Scot already knew. Now lets sit back and watch westminster spin their way out of this bit of truth
Things they are a changing. Here people we have a newspaper saying that Scotland pays it's own way, something that any self respecting Scot already knew. Now lets sit back and watch westminster spin their way out of this bit of truth
Posted by: murren59, Paisley Abbey on 6:17am Fri 2 Nov 07
Hey Tom, England,
I live in a village in Scotland where half of our neighbours are English...they all seem to love it here...and we all get along just fine
Maybe, just maybe, your problem in Scotland was...YOU???
Hey Tom, England,
I live in a village in Scotland where half of our neighbours are English...they all seem to love it here...and we all get along just fine
Maybe, just maybe, your problem in Scotland was...YOU???
Posted by: Is mise on 6:28am Fri 2 Nov 07
Tell us something we don't know. It's been obvious that the unionist have been lying to us for years. So we are not the complete basket case that Labour was making us out to be prior to the elections in May after all.
Tell us something we don't know. It's been obvious that the unionist have been lying to us for years. So we are not the complete basket case that Labour was making us out to be prior to the elections in May after all.
Posted by: Police State Trumpton, Under the cosh on 6:45am Fri 2 Nov 07
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound.
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 6:51am Fri 2 Nov 07
Tom you appear to have a real problem with people in general. There are many English born people moving to Scotland purely to live in better communities. They are very welcome to live in the BEST COUNTRY in the World because they are respected because they came here to JOIN the SCOTS, not to bull shiit them.
DO NOT EVER CONFUSE SCOTLAND AS ANTI ENGLISH as it is just plainly a lie. Now Westminster is a totally different thing altogether. Yes we want the place changed over to an English Parliament. Yes we want the English People in the Midlands and the North to get their fair share instead of being treated as some sort of social pariah.
Its a real pity that the Westminster Government uses so many deliberate attempts to split the worse off English People from the real problem of having English Political Liars not doing the right thing for the people who voted for them.
Do what we are doing up here and ask yourself What your Local Councillor or MP has actually done for your area. Not the Spin, but what exactly they have brought that would have fundamentally made life better for you and your kids. How Many Jobs, Better NHS, Better Schools, Police on the beat, or anything else you know will actually benefit your own kind. You will find it isnt much.
Tom you appear to have a real problem with people in general. There are many English born people moving to Scotland purely to live in better communities. They are very welcome to live in the BEST COUNTRY in the World because they are respected because they came here to JOIN the SCOTS, not to bull shiit them.
DO NOT EVER CONFUSE SCOTLAND AS ANTI ENGLISH as it is just plainly a lie. Now Westminster is a totally different thing altogether. Yes we want the place changed over to an English Parliament. Yes we want the English People in the Midlands and the North to get their fair share instead of being treated as some sort of social pariah.
Its a real pity that the Westminster Government uses so many deliberate attempts to split the worse off English People from the real problem of having English Political Liars not doing the right thing for the people who voted for them.
Do what we are doing up here and ask yourself What your Local Councillor or MP has actually done for your area. Not the Spin, but what exactly they have brought that would have fundamentally made life better for you and your kids. How Many Jobs, Better NHS, Better Schools, Police on the beat, or anything else you know will actually benefit your own kind. You will find it isnt much.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 6:52am Fri 2 Nov 07
Police State is Still in Denial[quote]But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank[/quote] Why an English one? Why not a Japanese one, or an American one? Why worry if it is taken over? What if it simply decides to "outsource" to Outer Pradesh?
We shall just have to enact laws regulating corporations and big business from screwing their own country.
A free market economy is one thing, but running off with the silver another.
Police State is Still in Denial
But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank
Why an English one? Why not a Japanese one, or an American one? Why worry if it is taken over? What if it simply decides to "outsource" to Outer Pradesh?
We shall just have to enact laws regulating corporations and big business from screwing their own country.
A free market economy is one thing, but running off with the silver another.
Posted by: Dr. James Wilkie on 7:05am Fri 2 Nov 07
This myth has long since been exploded. Scotland not only pays its own way within the UK, but is actually in massive surplus. Have a look at The Great Deception at www.scottishenterpri
separty.org .
This myth has long since been exploded. Scotland not only pays its own way within the UK, but is actually in massive surplus. Have a look at The Great Deception at www.scottishenterpri
separty.org .
Posted by: Andymac, Norway on 7:05am Fri 2 Nov 07
A fine article and it sounds like an important contribution to the debate over independence.
As I've said before, I'm sceptical about independence, not anti and all I've ever wanted is for truth not spin about the economic status of the constituent parts of the UK.
Now let's see what happens, as has been said above, there are some short term factors which may distort figures (oil price and the high pound) but what would be interesting is to pick over the stats and do a similar analysis over the last 10-20 years. I suspect the figures will show that we, at the very least, aren't the "subsidy junkies" we've been claimed to be.
Like I said, a good and balanced article that shines some long awaited light into UK finances. I'll be interested to see how this is responded to from all sides.
A fine article and it sounds like an important contribution to the debate over independence.
As I've said before, I'm sceptical about independence, not anti and all I've ever wanted is for truth not spin about the economic status of the constituent parts of the UK.
Now let's see what happens, as has been said above, there are some short term factors which may distort figures (oil price and the high pound) but what would be interesting is to pick over the stats and do a similar analysis over the last 10-20 years. I suspect the figures will show that we, at the very least, aren't the "subsidy junkies" we've been claimed to be.
Like I said, a good and balanced article that shines some long awaited light into UK finances. I'll be interested to see how this is responded to from all sides.
Posted by: hugh, Argyll on 7:22am Fri 2 Nov 07
Of course all of this could have been published long ago. So why wasn’t it? Why now, and not while the screech about financial black holes and 6000 pound deficits for every Scot was at it’s height? Could it be that with the SNP in power at Holyrood and about to publish an updated account of Scotland’s financial position in a few days, and with the English backlash threatening to destabilise the Union, The Herald has decided that it is time to try to regain a little of its lost credibility and some of its lost circulation?
Of course all of this could have been published long ago. So why wasn’t it? Why now, and not while the screech about financial black holes and 6000 pound deficits for every Scot was at it’s height? Could it be that with the SNP in power at Holyrood and about to publish an updated account of Scotland’s financial position in a few days, and with the English backlash threatening to destabilise the Union, The Herald has decided that it is time to try to regain a little of its lost credibility and some of its lost circulation?
Posted by: Sonnaidhd on 7:24am Fri 2 Nov 07
There never was a myth - just blatant propaganda from unionist sookmatoories - Shame!
There never was a myth - just blatant propaganda from unionist sookmatoories - Shame!
Posted by: graeme, edinburgh on 7:29am Fri 2 Nov 07
WOW - Douglas Fraser forgets to be party hack for labour party and tells truth about Scottich economy.
NAH I'm still dreaming won't be here when I wake up.
WOW - Douglas Fraser forgets to be party hack for labour party and tells truth about Scottich economy.
NAH I'm still dreaming won't be here when I wake up.
Posted by: keith hendry on 7:43am Fri 2 Nov 07
Ah Tom England, another English man that play's the old The Scots told me to f*** off back to England routine always good ammo against the Jock's & will go down well with the plastic Jock Kelvin MacKenzie (that's Mac Coinnich in it's original Gaelic form) along with Max Hastings & the usual suspects who love to give the world this impression of dour bigoted Scottish Presbyterian's. Well whatever you went through pal I don't know but, growing up in Pitlochry in highland Perthshire where there is a large English presence including my Fathers wife it just doesn't happen pal & I and assure you that is no lie. I worked many years in London because Scotland was not allowed to control it's natural resources and I can on occasion remember either hearing or being referred to as a Jock C***! In other word's because you are a nice bloke doesn't always mean you will meet nice people. What I have noticed over the years is that some people use a person's nationality to denigrate & offend & I can assure you the English are as guilty of this as the Scots but some people in England can't see themselves as others see them. Scotland will be an independent country I believe in the near future or otherwise, whether Scots have the bottle to vote for it or the English vote for it is of no consequence, it is only the amount Scotland loses before we get there! The Union was built for imperial empire it's over let's move on.
Ah Tom England, another English man that play's the old The Scots told me to f*** off back to England routine always good ammo against the Jock's & will go down well with the plastic Jock Kelvin MacKenzie (that's Mac Coinnich in it's original Gaelic form) along with Max Hastings & the usual suspects who love to give the world this impression of dour bigoted Scottish Presbyterian's. Well whatever you went through pal I don't know but, growing up in Pitlochry in highland Perthshire where there is a large English presence including my Fathers wife it just doesn't happen pal & I and assure you that is no lie. I worked many years in London because Scotland was not allowed to control it's natural resources and I can on occasion remember either hearing or being referred to as a Jock C***! In other word's because you are a nice bloke doesn't always mean you will meet nice people. What I have noticed over the years is that some people use a person's nationality to denigrate & offend & I can assure you the English are as guilty of this as the Scots but some people in England can't see themselves as others see them. Scotland will be an independent country I believe in the near future or otherwise, whether Scots have the bottle to vote for it or the English vote for it is of no consequence, it is only the amount Scotland loses before we get there! The Union was built for imperial empire it's over let's move on.
Posted by: Orlando Bobster, Orlando, Florida on 7:44am Fri 2 Nov 07
The Scots should muster in their millions at Hadrians wall and start digging a divide from coast to coast until the North Sea and the Irish Sea merge. Then, in one almighty push, force the English lands across the Channel to join with France and they can wallow in their Euro joy together.
Freedom!
The Scots should muster in their millions at Hadrians wall and start digging a divide from coast to coast until the North Sea and the Irish Sea merge. Then, in one almighty push, force the English lands across the Channel to join with France and they can wallow in their Euro joy together.
Freedom!
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 7:57am Fri 2 Nov 07
So from this article do I take it that Leask and Fraser will no longer be poo pooing the SNP Independence agenda anymore.
You bet they will, they will have already forgoten it by the time they sit down to write tomorrows article.
I maybe wrong, I hope I am, but I won't hold my breath.
So from this article do I take it that Leask and Fraser will no longer be poo pooing the SNP Independence agenda anymore.
You bet they will, they will have already forgoten it by the time they sit down to write tomorrows article.
I maybe wrong, I hope I am, but I won't hold my breath.
Posted by: McGubbligan, Australia on 8:08am Fri 2 Nov 07
The Herald doesn't have to be unionist or nationalist, just balanced.
Maybe............jus
t maybe?
The Herald doesn't have to be unionist or nationalist, just balanced.
Maybe............jus
t maybe?
Posted by: Eddy, Glasgow on 8:08am Fri 2 Nov 07
[quote][bold]Dr. James Wilkie[/bold] wrote:
This myth has long since been exploded. Scotland not only pays its own way within the UK, but is actually in massive surplus. Have a look at The Great Deception at www.scottishenterpri separty.org .[/quote] Systematic over simplification......
.....
Dr. James Wilkie wrote:
This myth has long since been exploded. Scotland not only pays its own way within the UK, but is actually in massive surplus. Have a look at The Great Deception at www.scottishenterpri separty.org .
Systematic over simplification......
.....
Posted by: David, East Kilbride on 8:14am Fri 2 Nov 07
Money doesn't come into it... Every self respecting national within any country wouldn't want anything other than INDEPENDANCE..
Other than that we have paid our way bigtime as we were taken to the cleaners..
Independance will come have no fear of that ... Beat the media and its a certainty..
Money doesn't come into it... Every self respecting national within any country wouldn't want anything other than INDEPENDANCE..
Other than that we have paid our way bigtime as we were taken to the cleaners..
Independance will come have no fear of that ... Beat the media and its a certainty..
Posted by: Seumas, Tain on 8:14am Fri 2 Nov 07
Come back Douglas, all is forgiven, however we must be reminded of the old saying==Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.
Come back Douglas, all is forgiven, however we must be reminded of the old saying==Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.
Posted by: Quine, Aberdeen on 8:29am Fri 2 Nov 07
To those who claim to have been hassled for being English and living in Scotland, I have sympathy with you but my partner is English and has lived up here for nearly 15 years now with no problems whatsoever and has even competed for Scotland in cross country and athletics.
He also votes for the SNP because being a senior figure in the oil industry, he knows only too well that Scotland has been more than paying its way and that although the oil will run out in 40-50years - his prediction - Scotland still has enough reserves to ensure a thriving economy where everyone can see some benefit from. They are also talking about exploring off Rockall where, if the predictions are right, we will be seeing a mini-boom all over again.
Even without the oil revenue Scotland would be a thriving nation. Its just quite, obviously, a good asset for any nation to have. What price are we at for a barrel of oil just now? Where is all that extra revenue benefitting? Not seeing much of it filter north, Darling and his cronies are certainly not divvying it up fairly where Scotland is concerned.
To those who claim to have been hassled for being English and living in Scotland, I have sympathy with you but my partner is English and has lived up here for nearly 15 years now with no problems whatsoever and has even competed for Scotland in cross country and athletics.
He also votes for the SNP because being a senior figure in the oil industry, he knows only too well that Scotland has been more than paying its way and that although the oil will run out in 40-50years - his prediction - Scotland still has enough reserves to ensure a thriving economy where everyone can see some benefit from. They are also talking about exploring off Rockall where, if the predictions are right, we will be seeing a mini-boom all over again.
Even without the oil revenue Scotland would be a thriving nation. Its just quite, obviously, a good asset for any nation to have. What price are we at for a barrel of oil just now? Where is all that extra revenue benefitting? Not seeing much of it filter north, Darling and his cronies are certainly not divvying it up fairly where Scotland is concerned.
Posted by: Jet McLazer, Here again on 8:34am Fri 2 Nov 07
Great report! Just when I had lost faith with journalism in general and the Herald in particular as being "cut & paste" experts, along they come with this - good stuff.
I'll have to dig out the Oxford Economics report and have a look through it but, on the face of it, well done Herald journos for providing positive text backed up by hard facts!
Great report! Just when I had lost faith with journalism in general and the Herald in particular as being "cut & paste" experts, along they come with this - good stuff.
I'll have to dig out the Oxford Economics report and have a look through it but, on the face of it, well done Herald journos for providing positive text backed up by hard facts!
Posted by: David Green, EDinburgh on 8:38am Fri 2 Nov 07
£26 billion is a lot of money. Would the hitherto unknown, or unpublished profit from the North Sea add up to anywhere this amount? Even if it did, the scrapping of tolls on Scotland's bridges, the massive overhaul/upgrading of Scotland's archaic roads, free prescriptions and eye care (which is coming in 2009-to be funded by Westminster!) would take the edge off it.
The proof of the pudding will be in the results of the referendum. Anyone up for a bet? I reckon 25% for independence, maybe less.
£26 billion is a lot of money. Would the hitherto unknown, or unpublished profit from the North Sea add up to anywhere this amount? Even if it did, the scrapping of tolls on Scotland's bridges, the massive overhaul/upgrading of Scotland's archaic roads, free prescriptions and eye care (which is coming in 2009-to be funded by Westminster!) would take the edge off it.
The proof of the pudding will be in the results of the referendum. Anyone up for a bet? I reckon 25% for independence, maybe less.
Posted by: Rob, England on 8:47am Fri 2 Nov 07
Statistics are there to show whatever you want. This paper has stated that they want to show Scotland in a good light - therfore it's good for Scotland etc.
On a personal note we took on a young Scot 6 months ago, he could not care less about the job or anything else. We had to sack him in the end - he was more then happy cause he could claim the dole. we have since taken on two English and a Lithuanian all of who work very hard, I would avoid employing a Scot at all costs in the future.
I would also like to wish you all the best in your Independance movement - it can't come soon enough from where I am standing
Statistics are there to show whatever you want. This paper has stated that they want to show Scotland in a good light - therfore it's good for Scotland etc.
On a personal note we took on a young Scot 6 months ago, he could not care less about the job or anything else. We had to sack him in the end - he was more then happy cause he could claim the dole. we have since taken on two English and a Lithuanian all of who work very hard, I would avoid employing a Scot at all costs in the future.
I would also like to wish you all the best in your Independance movement - it can't come soon enough from where I am standing
Posted by: cadgers, Perth on 8:48am Fri 2 Nov 07
So now we know why Westminster is afraid, very afraid of Scottish Indepenence. Wendy the Mooth and Nicol Who? should be ashamed to call themselves Scots. Annabel? Well what else can you expect from a Tory.
So now we know why Westminster is afraid, very afraid of Scottish Indepenence. Wendy the Mooth and Nicol Who? should be ashamed to call themselves Scots. Annabel? Well what else can you expect from a Tory.
Posted by: David Green, Edinburgh on 8:49am Fri 2 Nov 07
Forgot to throw in free University education. Someone please do the sums!
Forgot to throw in free University education. Someone please do the sums!
Posted by: clayton-moore on 8:52am Fri 2 Nov 07
Well done to the "Herald" for publicising facts and not the propaganda we've been subject to.
When will the media raise the question of the gerrymandered North Sea boundaries that put oil, that rightly should be Scots income, in English hands?
Another question is so-called export figures to England, how about a break down of what stays in England and what is re-exported abroad, at further profit and providing further employment benefits to companies that have no interest in the Scots economy.
Well done to the "Herald" for publicising facts and not the propaganda we've been subject to.
When will the media raise the question of the gerrymandered North Sea boundaries that put oil, that rightly should be Scots income, in English hands?
Another question is so-called export figures to England, how about a break down of what stays in England and what is re-exported abroad, at further profit and providing further employment benefits to companies that have no interest in the Scots economy.
Posted by: Edward, Edinburgh on 8:59am Fri 2 Nov 07
[quote][bold]Police State Trumpton[/bold] wrote:
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound. [/quote] The term grasping at straws comes to mind
Fact one - RBS is of such a size that neither English bank could take them over. But it is possible that the two English banks themselves could be taken over by an overseas bank as could RBS
Fact two - The value of oil will now never ever fall, due to the laws of economics (ie more demand - less supply and the occassional unstable region)
Your right that that the strength of sterling is helping but not as much as you think.
The other factor you didnt mention, If Scotland became independent, Scotland would have a strong economy and a strong currency, but without oil, England would have a fall in sterling
Police State Trumpton wrote:
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound.
The term grasping at straws comes to mind
Fact one - RBS is of such a size that neither English bank could take them over. But it is possible that the two English banks themselves could be taken over by an overseas bank as could RBS
Fact two - The value of oil will now never ever fall, due to the laws of economics (ie more demand - less supply and the occassional unstable region)
Your right that that the strength of sterling is helping but not as much as you think.
The other factor you didnt mention, If Scotland became independent, Scotland would have a strong economy and a strong currency, but without oil, England would have a fall in sterling
Posted by: Anne on 9:03am Fri 2 Nov 07
[quote]are exploded[/quote] Don't play with words, you may give others ideas. Good teamwork, reminds of another team that worked.
are exploded
Don't play with words, you may give others ideas. Good teamwork, reminds of another team that worked.
Posted by: The Voice of Reason, A93 on 9:05am Fri 2 Nov 07
What chance a public apology from the Scottish (sic) Labour, Tory, and LibDem Party members who have lied to the people for 50 years, dumbing down the nation to keep themselves in employment and to further their own London-centric ambitions?
VoR
What chance a public apology from the Scottish (sic) Labour, Tory, and LibDem Party members who have lied to the people for 50 years, dumbing down the nation to keep themselves in employment and to further their own London-centric ambitions?
VoR
Posted by: Huttcity, New Zealand on 9:05am Fri 2 Nov 07
[quote][bold]Police State Trumpton[/bold] wrote:
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound. [/quote] RBS get taken over by an English bank? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
. ha
Police State Trumpton wrote:
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound.
RBS get taken over by an English bank? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
. ha
Posted by: Huttcity, New Zealand on 9:07am Fri 2 Nov 07
[quote][bold]Police State Trumpton[/bold] wrote:
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound. [/quote] RBS get taken over by an English bank? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
. ha
Police State Trumpton wrote:
Okay, I'm a unionist but for the sake of argument I'll accept the findings (though it would be interesting to see the figures over a period of 10 years instead of just a snapshot - and this may have something to do with Crossrail). But what happens if RBS gets taken over by an English bank and the price of oil falls? The value of oil is falling quite a bit in sterling terms due to the strong pound.
RBS get taken over by an English bank? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
. ha
Posted by: P.Ragmatic, Balloch on 9:08