‘Atlanticist’ Brown vows to strengthen special bond with US
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| US President George Bush welcomes Prime Minister Gordon Brown to Camp David. |
Gordon Brown last night comprehensively dismissed any doubt that he was cooling on Britain's "special relationship" with America by declaring he was an avowed Atlanticist who wanted to strengthen further the UK's bond with its primary ally.
As he flew to Washington for his first face-to-face talks with the US President as Prime Minister, he spoke glowingly of the tenets underpinning the American Declaration of Independence and even invoked the spirit of Winston Churchill, a personal hero of George W Bush.
Mr Brown told reporters about a "joint inheritance" between the two nations, declaring this consisted "not just of shared history but shared values founded on a shared destiny".
He added: "I mean the idea that everyone is created equal, that there should be freedom of expression for
all faiths, that arts and culture should celebrate diversity, that government should be open and accountable, that there should be opportunity for all and a belief in free trade.
"These are the ideas that bind and give us strength to work together, to face down every challenge ahead - from the danger of nuclear proliferation, global poverty, climate change, to today, the biggest single and immediate challenge the world has to defeat: global terrorism."
His spokesman also dismissed reports that Mr Brown would unveil a plan for early withdrawal of British troops from Iraq, insisting that he would not.
A few days into the new premiership, as it sought to put a distance between itself and the Blair years, doubts were raised that the new Prime Minister
was seeking to loosen the UK's ties with the US.
Lord Malloch Brown, the Foreign Office Minister, created waves - not least inside government - when he insisted the two allies would no longer be "joined at the hip" on foreign policy.
Last night, en route to Camp David, Mr Brown, in seeking to dismiss such an approach, stressed: "I have always been an Atlanticist and a great admirer of the American spirit of enterprise and national purpose and commitment to opportunity for all.
"I have visited America many times and have many friends there. And as Prime Minister I want to do more to strengthen even further our relationship with the US. It is firmly in the British national interest that we have a strong relationship with the US, our single most important bilateral relationship."
Mr Brown quoted Winston Churchill, the first British Prime Minister to visit Camp David, the President's mountain retreat in Maryland. "Winston Churchill spoke of what he called the joint inheritance of our two countries, but he did not mean just our shared historical experiences but a belief in what he called the great principles of freedom and the rights of man.
"It was this joint inheritance of values that started with the idea of British liberty and then found its most famous expression in the American Declaration of Independence.
"In the 21st century, we face very different challenges and it is because of the very nature of the challenges that a partnership founded on values matters more than ever."
He praised the resilience and bravery of the American people in the wake of 9/11, declaring: "While buildings can be destroyed, values are indestructible."
He added: "We should acknowledge the debt the world owes to the United States for its leadership in this fight against international terrorism."
After landing in the US capital, Mr Brown was due to have a private one-to-one dinner with the President at his mountain retreat. More wide-ranging talks are due this morning and are expected to include David Miliband,
the Foreign Secretary, and Condoleezza Rice, his US counterpart. Issues will be trying to reinvigorate the stalled world trade talks and halting the bloodshed in Darfur as well as Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, climate change and a range of bilateral issues, including the US missile defence system.
Later today, the PM is expected to travel to Washington for a joint press conference with Mr Bush and cross-party talks with Senate leaders and members of Congress. Tomorrow, he will travel to the United Nations in New York, where he will give a speech on international affairs.
The Prime Minister also has been invited to give next year's Distinguished Foreign Visitor lecture to the JF Kennedy Memorial Library in Boston.
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Posted by: Jim MacDonald, Winnipeg Canada on 12:32am Mon 30 Jul 07
Suspicions confirmed !
Posted by: Jim MacDonald, Winnipeg Canada on 12:33am Mon 30 Jul 07
Suspicions confirmed !
Posted by: Jim MacDonald, Winnipeg Canada on 12:33am Mon 30 Jul 07
Suspicions confirmed !
Posted by: Pinback, Odenwald on 1:17am Mon 30 Jul 07
..I am an Atlanticist...I am a Monarchist..I dunno what I want but..I don't know how to get it...
..I am an Atlanticist...I am a Monarchist..I dunno what I want but..I don't know how to get it...
Posted by: jonny bond, glasgow on 4:36am Mon 30 Jul 07
Given that it is a historical fact that the nation we now call america was born when a bunch of scottish independence fighters ambushed an army of fellow scots on their way to fight for queen and country for their parcel of land. We scots share a deep respect of america because they were far enough away from the english that they could break free of their imperial yoke. Something that according to the polls we no longer even want for ourselves.
Given that it is a historical fact that the nation we now call america was born when a bunch of scottish independence fighters ambushed an army of fellow scots on their way to fight for queen and country for their parcel of land. We scots share a deep respect of america because they were far enough away from the english that they could break free of their imperial yoke. Something that according to the polls we no longer even want for ourselves.
Posted by: Robert Clark, London on 7:45am Mon 30 Jul 07
Actually, Mr Broon, the US government owes the rest of the world a debt for making such a cack-handed mess of the fight against Islamic fundamentalism, not least by fanning the flames during the 1980s (lest we forget CIA support for the mujahideen in Afghanistan). It also owes the UK population an apology for sending our troops on a wild goose chase for non-existent WMDs and for raising the risk of terrorist atrocities on UK soil (and I write this as a London commuter).
Is anyone surprised that Gordon Brown has professed his unqualified support for the current US administration with its "open and accountable" approach, its "free trade" policy (ie America first) etc? Are there ANY senior politicians in the UK capable of voicing serious criticism of US foreign policy? It's left to maverick outsiders like George Galloway, a polarising figure, to remind the world what the US government is doing.
The threat from Islamic fundamentalism is real but the inept US response has alienated support both in the Arab world and elsewhere. Brown should have said as much. Maybe if he'd read Ian Bell's recent column.....!
http://robertgordonc
lark.com/?p=123#more
-123
Actually, Mr Broon, the US government owes the rest of the world a debt for making such a cack-handed mess of the fight against Islamic fundamentalism, not least by fanning the flames during the 1980s (lest we forget CIA support for the mujahideen in Afghanistan). It also owes the UK population an apology for sending our troops on a wild goose chase for non-existent WMDs and for raising the risk of terrorist atrocities on UK soil (and I write this as a London commuter).
Is anyone surprised that Gordon Brown has professed his unqualified support for the current US administration with its "open and accountable" approach, its "free trade" policy (ie America first) etc? Are there ANY senior politicians in the UK capable of voicing serious criticism of US foreign policy? It's left to maverick outsiders like George Galloway, a polarising figure, to remind the world what the US government is doing.
The threat from Islamic fundamentalism is real but the inept US response has alienated support both in the Arab world and elsewhere. Brown should have said as much. Maybe if he'd read Ian Bell's recent column.....!
http://robertgordonc
lark.com/?p=123#more
-123
Posted by: Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 7:53am Mon 30 Jul 07
How can Brown possibly move away from the US with almost all major UK weapons systems being dependent on the USA production/ownership e.g. F35 carrier fighter, JSF Joint Strike Fighter, Globemaster transport aircraft, Trident replacement missiles and nuclear warhead production?
Contrast this with the French who have outstanding modern transport rail systems, self-sufficiency in food, arguably a higher quality of life along with complete independence in military aircraft, naval ships and nuclear weapons.
Special relationship – very special – complete military and foreign policy dependency of the UK to the USA.
How can Brown possibly move away from the US with almost all major UK weapons systems being dependent on the USA production/ownership e.g. F35 carrier fighter, JSF Joint Strike Fighter, Globemaster transport aircraft, Trident replacement missiles and nuclear warhead production?
Contrast this with the French who have outstanding modern transport rail systems, self-sufficiency in food, arguably a higher quality of life along with complete independence in military aircraft, naval ships and nuclear weapons.
Special relationship – very special – complete military and foreign policy dependency of the UK to the USA.
Posted by: Max stewart on 9:13am Mon 30 Jul 07
charles...the french are abasket case..teh CDG carrier spends 75% of its time in a dockyard due to it being not very reliable. The French mentality is if you can buy french even tho is is usless tosh then do so. We are not big enough to military independance...the isreialis don't they just by the best of everthing at much cheaper price and hence ar ebetter equipmened that us for half the cost
charles...the french are abasket case..teh CDG carrier spends 75% of its time in a dockyard due to it being not very reliable. The French mentality is if you can buy french even tho is is usless tosh then do so. We are not big enough to military independance...the isreialis don't they just by the best of everthing at much cheaper price and hence ar ebetter equipmened that us for half the cost
Posted by: Jimbo on 9:21am Mon 30 Jul 07
Looks like Broon's going to be a bigger lap dog than Blair. What is this thing Blair and Brown have that they feel we have to have a dependency on the US. Is it a Labour thing about building dependency cultures?
Looks like Broon's going to be a bigger lap dog than Blair. What is this thing Blair and Brown have that they feel we have to have a dependency on the US. Is it a Labour thing about building dependency cultures?
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 9:25am Mon 30 Jul 07
Yo Bown the Poodle.
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 9:41am Mon 30 Jul 07
Can anyone seriously see Milliband having an influence on what Condolizza Rice says or does? She will eat him for breakfast! The special relationship indeed.
Can anyone seriously see Milliband having an influence on what Condolizza Rice says or does? She will eat him for breakfast! The special relationship indeed.
Posted by: Efrosini H. on 9:43am Mon 30 Jul 07
To accept a favour is to sell one's liberty. Latin proverb. Beneficium accipere est libertatem vendere.
Won't mind being a fly on the wall to listen to their conversations and
find out aboot their true intentions.
To accept a favour is to sell one's liberty. Latin proverb. Beneficium accipere est libertatem vendere.
Won't mind being a fly on the wall to listen to their conversations and
find out aboot their true intentions.
Posted by: Ayrshire Avenger, Ayrshire on 10:23am Mon 30 Jul 07
It's like a remake of Dumb & Dumber.
It's like a remake of Dumb & Dumber.
Posted by: Efrosini H. on 10:53am Mon 30 Jul 07
The opposite of Atlantacism is a Euro-Centrist view.
According to John Williams, a member of the Fed. Union committee, their last up-date was on the 29th of May 2007, is Europe suffering from an identity crisis.
When there are failures they must be rooted in its theology as it's based on a myth that geo-polital and geo-strategic interests of Europe and America belong together in the final analysis.
And when will that occur?
The opposite of Atlantacism is a Euro-Centrist view.
According to John Williams, a member of the Fed. Union committee, their last up-date was on the 29th of May 2007, is Europe suffering from an identity crisis.
When there are failures they must be rooted in its theology as it's based on a myth that geo-polital and geo-strategic interests of Europe and America belong together in the final analysis.
And when will that occur?
Posted by: Va Gent, Virginia, USA on 11:46am Mon 30 Jul 07
Seems to me America put itself at risk during WWI for England and Europe. Seems to me that I remember America putting itself at risk before WWII to help arm and supply GB with arms, ammunition, supplies etc. The call went out to American citizens to donate any firearm they could do without to help arm GB. It seems to me I remember after WWII America lent money, people, equipment, services etc. to help rebuild GB and Europe. Just remember East Berlin and what it looked like for 60 years. Still looking as bombed out as it was just after the war. GB was so appreciative of what America did that you refused the offer by us to cancel your war debt. I believe it was 5 or so years ago that the last dollar was paid.
I am not saying we are always right, we aren't just like all governments but we try. Sometimes the Americans think that President Woodrow Wilson was right in us becoming isolated from the rest of the world. We would only do "our thing for just our people" and to Hell with the rest of the world. If you in GB think this is what America should write the President and ask him to support isolationism for America.
Seems to me America put itself at risk during WWI for England and Europe. Seems to me that I remember America putting itself at risk before WWII to help arm and supply GB with arms, ammunition, supplies etc. The call went out to American citizens to donate any firearm they could do without to help arm GB. It seems to me I remember after WWII America lent money, people, equipment, services etc. to help rebuild GB and Europe. Just remember East Berlin and what it looked like for 60 years. Still looking as bombed out as it was just after the war. GB was so appreciative of what America did that you refused the offer by us to cancel your war debt. I believe it was 5 or so years ago that the last dollar was paid.
I am not saying we are always right, we aren't just like all governments but we try. Sometimes the Americans think that President Woodrow Wilson was right in us becoming isolated from the rest of the world. We would only do "our thing for just our people" and to Hell with the rest of the world. If you in GB think this is what America should write the President and ask him to support isolationism for America.
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 11:58am Mon 30 Jul 07
If only America had become isolationist before the oil-grab in Iraq, 670,000 women, men and children would still be alive. Millions more would not be disposesed, and the Middle East would not be the cauldron of terror that it has become thanks to good old Uncle Sam!
If only America had become isolationist before the oil-grab in Iraq, 670,000 women, men and children would still be alive. Millions more would not be disposesed, and the Middle East would not be the cauldron of terror that it has become thanks to good old Uncle Sam!
Posted by: Paul R., Glasgow on 12:28pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Efrosini H. 10;53 am
Your name is sounds Greek, are you?
You know that Greek civilization was influenced by the Egyptian civil-ization.
But how could anyone have suggested of any cooling on Britain's "special relationship" when Gordon Brown himself had stressed that he always was an Atlanticist and a great admirer of the lot.
Efrosini H. 10;53 am
Your name is sounds Greek, are you?
You know that Greek civilization was influenced by the Egyptian civil-ization.
But how could anyone have suggested of any cooling on Britain's "special relationship" when Gordon Brown himself had stressed that he always was an Atlanticist and a great admirer of the lot.
Posted by: Yok Finney, Ross-shire on 12:33pm Mon 30 Jul 07
I don't want my government to have anything to do with how myself, my company, my family is aligned. I don't have any special relationship with America, The Head Designer on my current engineering project lives in New Zealand, I could move myself to Uruguay or Hawaii.
I DO have this special relationship with Scotland and those who built fishing boats and worked them. I would doubt irf Gordon Brown has even heard of David Smith and his pioneering and very successful boats that might even be considered Scotland's sole contribution to 20th century events that matter. David Smith is a native Fifer as I am.
I don't want my government to have anything to do with how myself, my company, my family is aligned. I don't have any special relationship with America, The Head Designer on my current engineering project lives in New Zealand, I could move myself to Uruguay or Hawaii.
I DO have this special relationship with Scotland and those who built fishing boats and worked them. I would doubt irf Gordon Brown has even heard of David Smith and his pioneering and very successful boats that might even be considered Scotland's sole contribution to 20th century events that matter. David Smith is a native Fifer as I am.
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 12:36pm Mon 30 Jul 07
If the US had been isolationist then we would have the benefit of speaking German. The Left would be dead and gone just like they almost are today. Immigration would not be a problem as most of the worlds coloured population would have been wiped out by Adolf. So I wonder Ronald 11:58, with the exception of the present do you have anything good to say about the Yanks eg Normandy Landings etc etc etc.[bold]bold[/bold]
If the US had been isolationist then we would have the benefit of speaking German. The Left would be dead and gone just like they almost are today. Immigration would not be a problem as most of the worlds coloured population would have been wiped out by Adolf. So I wonder Ronald 11:58, with the exception of the present do you have anything good to say about the Yanks eg Normandy Landings etc etc etc.
Posted by: Jim, Irvine , North Ayrshire on 12:40pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Tthe saddest aspects of the Blair and Brown premierships, past, present and the future, is it seems nothing will change.
When ' Shock and Awe ' hit Iraq in 2003 there were specific targets.
The fresh water storage systems; (the best in Middle east). The
Sewerage plants and Electricity Plants. These facilities were covered by the Geneva Convention. Blair and anybody who assisted him should be charged.
The people of Middle England are in dire circumstances because of
Mother Natures Floods. Its happened before and not enough money
was spent on control mechanisms.
Middle England voted Blair back in after his Illegal war in Iraq.They saw the Billions of Pounds being waisted in Trident , Nuclear and
future Carrier programme.
Brown has to go to the country for re election shortly. Vote for his
policies and you take the responsibility.
Money for Armaments ; or money for Peace ?
Tthe saddest aspects of the Blair and Brown premierships, past, present and the future, is it seems nothing will change.
When ' Shock and Awe ' hit Iraq in 2003 there were specific targets.
The fresh water storage systems; (the best in Middle east). The
Sewerage plants and Electricity Plants. These facilities were covered by the Geneva Convention. Blair and anybody who assisted him should be charged.
The people of Middle England are in dire circumstances because of
Mother Natures Floods. Its happened before and not enough money
was spent on control mechanisms.
Middle England voted Blair back in after his Illegal war in Iraq.They saw the Billions of Pounds being waisted in Trident , Nuclear and
future Carrier programme.
Brown has to go to the country for re election shortly. Vote for his
policies and you take the responsibility.
Money for Armaments ; or money for Peace ?
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 12:57pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Brown's visit to the States can now only be regarded as an abject personal failure. Despite the spin leading up to this meeting with Bush, he has confirmed the worst suspicions of people - there will be no change to the servile nature of UK foreign policy in dealing with the US.
Iraqis will continue to die, Afghanis will continue to die, our soldiers will continue to die, the terrorism will continue unabated, nothing will change because Gordon Brown didn't have the bottle to stand up to George Bush.
How pathetic!
Brown's visit to the States can now only be regarded as an abject personal failure. Despite the spin leading up to this meeting with Bush, he has confirmed the worst suspicions of people - there will be no change to the servile nature of UK foreign policy in dealing with the US.
Iraqis will continue to die, Afghanis will continue to die, our soldiers will continue to die, the terrorism will continue unabated, nothing will change because Gordon Brown didn't have the bottle to stand up to George Bush.
How pathetic!
Posted by: Va Gent, Virginia, USA on 1:04pm Mon 30 Jul 07
I find it interesting reading the feedback to my posting. I keep reading " if this, if that, if whatever". Well 60 + years ago was no "IF". America was called on to help our cousins overseas and we responded with very little hesitation!! If we had not gotten into WWII imagine how many German and Italian citizens would have lived! War is never nice and hindsight is the way out that the uniformed use all the time. What has happened has happened and there is nothing that in Gods green earth will ever change it. I find it most distressing that people feel better and more self important criticizing that which happened instead off using that great talent to better things. What do you honestly feel you accomplish getting up on your high horse or soapbox and addressing the past. I would feel most honored if you would tell me how you will change the past?
I find it interesting reading the feedback to my posting. I keep reading " if this, if that, if whatever". Well 60 + years ago was no "IF". America was called on to help our cousins overseas and we responded with very little hesitation!! If we had not gotten into WWII imagine how many German and Italian citizens would have lived! War is never nice and hindsight is the way out that the uniformed use all the time. What has happened has happened and there is nothing that in Gods green earth will ever change it. I find it most distressing that people feel better and more self important criticizing that which happened instead off using that great talent to better things. What do you honestly feel you accomplish getting up on your high horse or soapbox and addressing the past. I would feel most honored if you would tell me how you will change the past?
Posted by: Anti-isms on 1:31pm Mon 30 Jul 07
There was never so much information as in this news item; every aspect on world issues is lifted.
But when I read for the first time about "global poverty", as climate change was an issue in the 60-s for something in the distant future, now a fact we are already not blinking our eyes for, when we see cars floating about in the street, now, for the first time, I'm just staring at the words "global poverty" in awe. Huh?
It's there, printed in black and white, the new challenge! Wow!
There was never so much information as in this news item; every aspect on world issues is lifted.
But when I read for the first time about "global poverty", as climate change was an issue in the 60-s for something in the distant future, now a fact we are already not blinking our eyes for, when we see cars floating about in the street, now, for the first time, I'm just staring at the words "global poverty" in awe. Huh?
It's there, printed in black and white, the new challenge! Wow!
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 1:36pm Mon 30 Jul 07
So, Va Gent, you do not believe in human-rights, or in International
Justice. Your Leaders, and sadly mine, can start ilegal wars based on a fabrication of lies and duplicity, yet not be called to account when these self-same lies become only too transparent.? Is having standards of morality the same as "getting on your high horse"?
Do tell.
And poor Graham, that New-Labour clown, and dribling supporter
of our Tone ( or as he puts it- Britains finest Prime Minister! ) and Gordo - Better known as Dumb and Dumber- the dogs in the street know that WW2 was won in the factories in Detroit, and on the Eastern Front by the indefatigable Russian people. And of course the real winners were International finance and members of the military and industrial complex.
So, Va Gent, you do not believe in human-rights, or in International
Justice. Your Leaders, and sadly mine, can start ilegal wars based on a fabrication of lies and duplicity, yet not be called to account when these self-same lies become only too transparent.? Is having standards of morality the same as "getting on your high horse"?
Do tell.
And poor Graham, that New-Labour clown, and dribling supporter
of our Tone ( or as he puts it- Britains finest Prime Minister! ) and Gordo - Better known as Dumb and Dumber- the dogs in the street know that WW2 was won in the factories in Detroit, and on the Eastern Front by the indefatigable Russian people. And of course the real winners were International finance and members of the military and industrial complex.
Posted by: Yok Finney, Ross-shire on 1:37pm Mon 30 Jul 07
No, you can't change the past, only your better understanding of it, Va Gent. I learn it from my wife and family and the generation that fought in WW2. And I read historians that do first hand research and strive for truth. In 1917 the "red" republican states of America had a majority German population. The boys were shipped across to fight their brothers !
It was about the power of the - i have to say - gutter press in these days. I will live to see the day when Winston Churchill is correctly considered one of the biggest war criminals of the 20th century along with J. Stalin. Truth will arrive in it's due time !
No, you can't change the past, only your better understanding of it, Va Gent. I learn it from my wife and family and the generation that fought in WW2. And I read historians that do first hand research and strive for truth. In 1917 the "red" republican states of America had a majority German population. The boys were shipped across to fight their brothers !
It was about the power of the - i have to say - gutter press in these days. I will live to see the day when Winston Churchill is correctly considered one of the biggest war criminals of the 20th century along with J. Stalin. Truth will arrive in it's due time !
Posted by: Gerry Sweeney, Hamilton on 1:38pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Oh goodie. Another American poodle to enter whatever conflictthey want us to help them with.
Oh goodie. Another American poodle to enter whatever conflictthey want us to help them with.
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 1:51pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Forgive me being ever so picky, Va Gent, but America never came into the war until Hitler declared war on the US in a reckless moment. And supplying arms to the UK, while never at any time putting the US in harm's way, being nice and beyond the reach of the nasty Nazis, was ever such a neat business idea for your munitions manufacturers. If Adolf hadn't declared war in 1941, when would you have entered the war, tell me?
Forgive me being ever so picky, Va Gent, but America never came into the war until Hitler declared war on the US in a reckless moment. And supplying arms to the UK, while never at any time putting the US in harm's way, being nice and beyond the reach of the nasty Nazis, was ever such a neat business idea for your munitions manufacturers. If Adolf hadn't declared war in 1941, when would you have entered the war, tell me?
Posted by: Ae.A. on 2:30pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Why not become part of the us, for heaven's sake!!!
The Globe, the Universe!
Why not become part of the us, for heaven's sake!!!
The Globe, the Universe!
Posted by: Va Gent, Virginia, USA on 2:31pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Let us get a look here at what I said. First off Hitler declared war in Sept. 1939. He only declared war against the US in 1941 after Pearl Harbor Alastair you should thank your lucky stars that the "nasty Nazi's" waited until 1941 else if it had been in 1938-39 we would never been able to help GB. It gave us breathing room to ramp up our factories for arms and material production. Yamamoto after being trained in the US said we (the Japanese) have awaken the sleeping dragon after Pearl Harbor.
Remember also GB wrote the contracts with the American munitions companies. We supplied free of charge a large percentage of firearms to GB up to and modifying the 45 ACP to use the English Webley ammunition! The US knew the inevitable outcome of our involvement in WWII so we used that 2 years to start preparing for the outcome
Let us get a look here at what I said. First off Hitler declared war in Sept. 1939. He only declared war against the US in 1941 after Pearl Harbor Alastair you should thank your lucky stars that the "nasty Nazi's" waited until 1941 else if it had been in 1938-39 we would never been able to help GB. It gave us breathing room to ramp up our factories for arms and material production. Yamamoto after being trained in the US said we (the Japanese) have awaken the sleeping dragon after Pearl Harbor.
Remember also GB wrote the contracts with the American munitions companies. We supplied free of charge a large percentage of firearms to GB up to and modifying the 45 ACP to use the English Webley ammunition! The US knew the inevitable outcome of our involvement in WWII so we used that 2 years to start preparing for the outcome
Posted by: CB, Edinburgh on 2:39pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Since when did The Herald turn into Labour's equivalent of Pravda? Oh, silly me, I forgot: Broon is the great leader whose shining benificence illuminates all. (Ouch! Please stop with the electrodes to me knackers, officer Dibble!)
Since when did The Herald turn into Labour's equivalent of Pravda? Oh, silly me, I forgot: Broon is the great leader whose shining benificence illuminates all. (Ouch! Please stop with the electrodes to me knackers, officer Dibble!)
Posted by: George Laird, Glasgow on 2:51pm Mon 30 Jul 07
It would appear Brown who is remarkably stupid wants to take the same line as the fool Blair. In the not too distance future Bush will be gone and the new administration will be anti war, what then for Brown?
180 degrees with a twist?
How far can Brown strengthen the "special relationship", put direct fax machines into all uk government office so that can get their orders direct from the neo cons!
Britain's future, what is left of it is in europe, and not tied to some 66 year old one side alliance with the US.
As everyone recalls the USA ripped Britain off in lend lease and took all the UK assets in their banks. The US entered the war, two years late and only because they were attacked.
If the Japanese had not attack Pearl Harbor then America would have never entered the war period.
So much for our transatlantic "ally".
Finally less we forget America is involved in running concentration camps and torture.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
It would appear Brown who is remarkably stupid wants to take the same line as the fool Blair. In the not too distance future Bush will be gone and the new administration will be anti war, what then for Brown?
180 degrees with a twist?
How far can Brown strengthen the "special relationship", put direct fax machines into all uk government office so that can get their orders direct from the neo cons!
Britain's future, what is left of it is in europe, and not tied to some 66 year old one side alliance with the US.
As everyone recalls the USA ripped Britain off in lend lease and took all the UK assets in their banks. The US entered the war, two years late and only because they were attacked.
If the Japanese had not attack Pearl Harbor then America would have never entered the war period.
So much for our transatlantic "ally".
Finally less we forget America is involved in running concentration camps and torture.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
Posted by: Va Gent, Virginia, USA on 3:20pm Mon 30 Jul 07
We did not "rip" Britain off. The only thing I recall is we got the use of Bermuda as a base of operations. George I would like to know your verifiable facts that we ripped Britain off. Remember we offered to forgive Britain's WWII debt right after the war!! Think about that before you accuse us of "ripping GB off". Many arms made for GB were also subdised by the US government. Much of the money for that came from war bonds sold to the small Americal who felt an obligation to GB, Europe and Asia.
We did not "rip" Britain off. The only thing I recall is we got the use of Bermuda as a base of operations. George I would like to know your verifiable facts that we ripped Britain off. Remember we offered to forgive Britain's WWII debt right after the war!! Think about that before you accuse us of "ripping GB off". Many arms made for GB were also subdised by the US government. Much of the money for that came from war bonds sold to the small Americal who felt an obligation to GB, Europe and Asia.
Posted by: aelle on 3:31pm Mon 30 Jul 07
G. L. 2:51
If the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbour then America would have never entered the war.(period)
Many countries were happy that those events too k place. We would never have heard about the Americans except of Hollywood, Donald Duck and Ford-cars, if they were not all over the place coming to the rescue, with their chocolats and fags.
G. L. 2:51
If the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbour then America would have never entered the war.(period)
Many countries were happy that those events too k place. We would never have heard about the Americans except of Hollywood, Donald Duck and Ford-cars, if they were not all over the place coming to the rescue, with their chocolats and fags.
Posted by: Conner, USA on 3:32pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Va Gent, Virginia, USA........
Save your breath, as the Brits hate we American's. Plus, you are "only" beating yourself to death, along with raising your blood pressure, for nothing. Especially the likes of them.
It has taken me a long time, to come to the realization, that our families & all of our boys, died in vain. When fighting & defending Britian & Europe during WWI & II. Sorry "Va Gent", to inform you, but America's involvement , was for naught.
And "yes" to those of you Brits. Many of our families were German decent. "BUT...they volunteered to go over, and kill their own relations, in order to live in a free society, as well a free world.
My family, like many others, lost boys over there. They can "never be replaced. Never, ever. Yet, the Britsh say we were wrong, we never did did anything, concerning the two world war's. Than on tp of that, we are trash & that all American's are trash & garbage.
"Va Gent"........I read just recently, in a British Blog Thread, where a cemetery of American soldiers are buried in England, needed to be moved. Well, two replies to the blog said, and I quote; "Just plow them under, as they are nothing more than trash, like all American's".
Also, last year. A couple, with their children, was visiting London, and their eight year old daughter, was wearing a shirt with an American flag printed on it. Someone walked up to the little girl, and "spit" in her face. "How" sick is that, I ask you!?!? Spitting on an eight year little girl.
So, "Va Gent", save your breath, as they hate us, and look down on us. But, I can garantee you, when the **** hits the fan, especially with Russia, the so called WWII liberators, or Iran. They'll come running to the USA for help. I just hope & pray the next President doesn't give it, if the situation arises. I for one say "NO"!!!
Well, I like many, over here.Want us to become "Isolationists". let Europe worry about Europe. After all, our families fled the place to come here for a better life, which they received. They didn't give a horses batootie about Europe, as they hated the place, and all the bad memories which many left behind, in order to come here.
Va Gent, Virginia, USA........
Save your breath, as the Brits hate we American's. Plus, you are "only" beating yourself to death, along with raising your blood pressure, for nothing. Especially the likes of them.
It has taken me a long time, to come to the realization, that our families & all of our boys, died in vain. When fighting & defending Britian & Europe during WWI & II. Sorry "Va Gent", to inform you, but America's involvement , was for naught.
And "yes" to those of you Brits. Many of our families were German decent. "BUT...they volunteered to go over, and kill their own relations, in order to live in a free society, as well a free world.
My family, like many others, lost boys over there. They can "never be replaced. Never, ever. Yet, the Britsh say we were wrong, we never did did anything, concerning the two world war's. Than on tp of that, we are trash & that all American's are trash & garbage.
"Va Gent"........I read just recently, in a British Blog Thread, where a cemetery of American soldiers are buried in England, needed to be moved. Well, two replies to the blog said, and I quote; "Just plow them under, as they are nothing more than trash, like all American's".
Also, last year. A couple, with their children, was visiting London, and their eight year old daughter, was wearing a shirt with an American flag printed on it. Someone walked up to the little girl, and "spit" in her face. "How" sick is that, I ask you!?!? Spitting on an eight year little girl.
So, "Va Gent", save your breath, as they hate us, and look down on us. But, I can garantee you, when the **** hits the fan, especially with Russia, the so called WWII liberators, or Iran. They'll come running to the USA for help. I just hope & pray the next President doesn't give it, if the situation arises. I for one say "NO"!!!
Well, I like many, over here.Want us to become "Isolationists". let Europe worry about Europe. After all, our families fled the place to come here for a better life, which they received. They didn't give a horses batootie about Europe, as they hated the place, and all the bad memories which many left behind, in order to come here.
Posted by: yahtze river, Charlotte USA on 4:13pm Mon 30 Jul 07
FROM TODAY'S WASHINGTON POST
"In this century, it has fallen to America to take center stage. And let me acknowledge the debt the world owes to the United States for its leadership in this struggle.
America has shown by the resilience and bravery of its people from Sept. 11, 2001, to this day that while buildings can be destroyed, values are indestructible; that while lives may be ended, the belief in liberty never dies; and that while hearts may be broken, the faith in a better future is unbreakable.
So today the struggles of the 21st century are the battles that engage military might which we have been fighting together in Iraq and Afghanistan and through NATO -- and they are also the battles of ideas.
And just as we are united in tackling global terrorism, so we are united in our belief that globalization should be seen as an opportunity and not simply a threat.
Separated -- yes -- by an ocean, we are still united by the streams of history and the strengths of our ideals. Standing together on this foundation we will prevail in the greatest struggles of our times.
The writer is prime minister of Britain."
No wonder the self loathing fantasists on this thread are apoplectic. After reading this, Malloch Brown will resign if he has any honor (unlikely) with this utter repudiation of his comments of two weeks ago. The special realtionship is in good hands with
Mister Brown, so do not have any strokes - your NHS can't cope with the strain now.
"Gawd bless y'all and Gawd bless the United States of America!"
FROM TODAY'S WASHINGTON POST
"In this century, it has fallen to America to take center stage. And let me acknowledge the debt the world owes to the United States for its leadership in this struggle.
America has shown by the resilience and bravery of its people from Sept. 11, 2001, to this day that while buildings can be destroyed, values are indestructible; that while lives may be ended, the belief in liberty never dies; and that while hearts may be broken, the faith in a better future is unbreakable.
So today the struggles of the 21st century are the battles that engage military might which we have been fighting together in Iraq and Afghanistan and through NATO -- and they are also the battles of ideas.
And just as we are united in tackling global terrorism, so we are united in our belief that globalization should be seen as an opportunity and not simply a threat.
Separated -- yes -- by an ocean, we are still united by the streams of history and the strengths of our ideals. Standing together on this foundation we will prevail in the greatest struggles of our times.
The writer is prime minister of Britain."
No wonder the self loathing fantasists on this thread are apoplectic. After reading this, Malloch Brown will resign if he has any honor (unlikely) with this utter repudiation of his comments of two weeks ago. The special realtionship is in good hands with
Mister Brown, so do not have any strokes - your NHS can't cope with the strain now.
"Gawd bless y'all and Gawd bless the United States of America!"
Posted by: yahtze river, Charlotte USA on 4:20pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Va gent,
Conner beat me to it. You must remember that this kind of gabfest forum is the only thing these "castrati"' have left to them.
They certainly have no ability to project anything like we do.
Do what we have always done and just ignore them.
Or try to get a rise out of them, which is almost laughably too easy.
Va gent,
Conner beat me to it. You must remember that this kind of gabfest forum is the only thing these "castrati"' have left to them.
They certainly have no ability to project anything like we do.
Do what we have always done and just ignore them.
Or try to get a rise out of them, which is almost laughably too easy.
Posted by: The Celtic Ranger, Over here on 5:00pm Mon 30 Jul 07
VA Gent,
One slight error in one of your previous postings; Germany did not declare war on GB in 1939; the British Government and its allies declared war on Germany. IMO (and others) Hitler did not want to fight with the British people but was too arrogant to believe that we would back up our promise to Poland. We did. Old fashioned as it seems, we stuck by our promise, despite the cost.
As far as US involvement in 1941-45 was concerned, my father-in-law served in Burma and his opinion was that the Americans saved his (and many other) lives in that part of the conflict. I'm glad you did that.
VA Gent/Conner/Yahtze River: Please note that not all Brits/Scots are anti-US fanatics; some of us dislike your present government but appreciate that you have a democracy and, come the Presidential election, there will be a different person in charge. Thankfully, we have a similar system here and all I can say is roll on the next UK election too - in 24 months the Bush-Brown meeting will be a thing of history.
As far as Iraq goes, I am not going to venture too far down that road; suffice to say that it is tremendously sad to see young British and US men and women place their lives on the line for what many in this country (and possibly many in yours too) see as an unnecessary and unwinnable war. I hope and pray with all my heart that peace will come to Iraq; I believe that if it does come, it will not be due to either the Bush or the Brown administrations. It will, however, happen when the Iraqi people understand that they are stronger together than apart. This, of course, also applies to people all over the world; our differences may be many but they should never be allowed to tear us apart.
God bless the USof A - and God bless Scotland!
VA Gent,
One slight error in one of your previous postings; Germany did not declare war on GB in 1939; the British Government and its allies declared war on Germany. IMO (and others) Hitler did not want to fight with the British people but was too arrogant to believe that we would back up our promise to Poland. We did. Old fashioned as it seems, we stuck by our promise, despite the cost.
As far as US involvement in 1941-45 was concerned, my father-in-law served in Burma and his opinion was that the Americans saved his (and many other) lives in that part of the conflict. I'm glad you did that.
VA Gent/Conner/Yahtze River: Please note that not all Brits/Scots are anti-US fanatics; some of us dislike your present government but appreciate that you have a democracy and, come the Presidential election, there will be a different person in charge. Thankfully, we have a similar system here and all I can say is roll on the next UK election too - in 24 months the Bush-Brown meeting will be a thing of history.
As far as Iraq goes, I am not going to venture too far down that road; suffice to say that it is tremendously sad to see young British and US men and women place their lives on the line for what many in this country (and possibly many in yours too) see as an unnecessary and unwinnable war. I hope and pray with all my heart that peace will come to Iraq; I believe that if it does come, it will not be due to either the Bush or the Brown administrations. It will, however, happen when the Iraqi people understand that they are stronger together than apart. This, of course, also applies to people all over the world; our differences may be many but they should never be allowed to tear us apart.
God bless the USof A - and God bless Scotland!
Posted by: Conner, USA on 5:23pm Mon 30 Jul 07
"The Celtic Ranger".... "Thank you Sir"! And that is exactly what you are; A gentlemen & worthy to be called "Sir".
I quite agree with you. The majority of American's, like the British, can not wait for the next "Presidential" elections. That is why we see, the canditates, gearing up earlier than usual.
I also agree, that there are many people, in all of Britain. Who are wonderful people, and a pleasure to know.
Again; "thank you, Sir" for your kind words of encourgement. They are well taken and heeded.
"Celtic Ranger", you are a fine example, of who the Scottish people are.
"The Celtic Ranger".... "Thank you Sir"! And that is exactly what you are; A gentlemen & worthy to be called "Sir".
I quite agree with you. The majority of American's, like the British, can not wait for the next "Presidential" elections. That is why we see, the canditates, gearing up earlier than usual.
I also agree, that there are many people, in all of Britain. Who are wonderful people, and a pleasure to know.
Again; "thank you, Sir" for your kind words of encourgement. They are well taken and heeded.
"Celtic Ranger", you are a fine example, of who the Scottish people are.
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 5:56pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Do not see what is important about waiting for the next presidential elections. The next incumbant will do what is required. It could be Hillary, who is presently cuddling up to the US MILITARY LEADERSHIP. It could be her that orders the forthcoming attack on Iran![bold]bold[/bold]
Do not see what is important about waiting for the next presidential elections. The next incumbant will do what is required. It could be Hillary, who is presently cuddling up to the US MILITARY LEADERSHIP. It could be her that orders the forthcoming attack on Iran!
Posted by: Va Gent, Virginia, USA on 5:56pm Mon 30 Jul 07
For what it is worth my ancestors arrived in America in the early 1700's. My family heritage goes back to the to High Unger and the book of my families history has been documented back to 1600. I am proud of my English, Scotch, Scotch Irish and German ancestors. I have never been anti GB and never will. My family is registered in the Hall of Heraldry and not from one of these nickel and dime Crescent bunch. The motto on our crest says "What is Good is True" I do not tell you this to feel important but to let you know I have a very strong feeling/attachment to my history. There is no question "I AM AN AMERICAN" but my roots which I deeply respect extends back at least 600 yrs. if not more to your country and I am proud to say that!!!
I am sure you all do not give a "nats ****" about this but I just wanted to let you know "-------------------
-". You fill in the blanks as you see fit.
For what it is worth my ancestors arrived in America in the early 1700's. My family heritage goes back to the to High Unger and the book of my families history has been documented back to 1600. I am proud of my English, Scotch, Scotch Irish and German ancestors. I have never been anti GB and never will. My family is registered in the Hall of Heraldry and not from one of these nickel and dime Crescent bunch. The motto on our crest says "What is Good is True" I do not tell you this to feel important but to let you know I have a very strong feeling/attachment to my history. There is no question "I AM AN AMERICAN" but my roots which I deeply respect extends back at least 600 yrs. if not more to your country and I am proud to say that!!!
I am sure you all do not give a "nats ****" about this but I just wanted to let you know "-------------------
-". You fill in the blanks as you see fit.
Posted by: History lessons needed! on 6:02pm Mon 30 Jul 07
[quote][bold]Va Gent[/bold] wrote:
I find it interesting reading the feedback to my posting. I keep reading " if this, if that, if whatever". Well 60 + years ago was no "IF". America was called on to help our cousins overseas and we responded with very little hesitation!! If we had not gotten into WWII imagine how many German and Italian citizens would have lived! War is never nice and hindsight is the way out that the uniformed use all the time. What has happened has happened and there is nothing that in Gods green earth will ever change it. I find it most distressing that people feel better and more self important criticizing that which happened instead off using that great talent to better things. What do you honestly feel you accomplish getting up on your high horse or soapbox and addressing the past. I would feel most honored if you would tell me how you will change the past?[/quote] Very little hesitation? We were asking you for years! Churchill signed over many government owned businesses etc; in the US for the weapons you sent us.
It took Churchill staying quiet (he knew it was happening) on the Pearl Harbor attack for you to actually come and fight. My Grandpa who was a captain on the big guns shooting down enemy aircraft said that when the US joined WW2 he had to physically stop them shooting down friendly planes. There were more British soldiers killed in both Iraq wars by American soldiers than by the enemy! Your army may be big but I'd take 20 British soldiers for 100 of yours.
And [bold]Churchill[/bold] said "They have awoken the sleeping giant." Get your facts straight!
Va Gent wrote:
I find it interesting reading the feedback to my posting. I keep reading " if this, if that, if whatever". Well 60 + years ago was no "IF". America was called on to help our cousins overseas and we responded with very little hesitation!! If we had not gotten into WWII imagine how many German and Italian citizens would have lived! War is never nice and hindsight is the way out that the uniformed use all the time. What has happened has happened and there is nothing that in Gods green earth will ever change it. I find it most distressing that people feel better and more self important criticizing that which happened instead off using that great talent to better things. What do you honestly feel you accomplish getting up on your high horse or soapbox and addressing the past. I would feel most honored if you would tell me how you will change the past?
Very little hesitation? We were asking you for years! Churchill signed over many government owned businesses etc; in the US for the weapons you sent us.
It took Churchill staying quiet (he knew it was happening) on the Pearl Harbor attack for you to actually come and fight. My Grandpa who was a captain on the big guns shooting down enemy aircraft said that when the US joined WW2 he had to physically stop them shooting down friendly planes. There were more British soldiers killed in both Iraq wars by American soldiers than by the enemy! Your army may be big but I'd take 20 British soldiers for 100 of yours.
And
Churchill said "They have awoken the sleeping giant." Get your facts straight!
Posted by: History lessons needed! on 6:13pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Not that I am anit-American you did help win the war but I just don't like it when you state that you did it on a whim, we paid you to help and then allowed an atrocity to happen in order for you to join. We signed over a lot of businesses and money to secure victory. The only reason we don't speak German is because Hitler refused to believe that the British Empire had become so weak so did not invade England, if he had decided to invade we would have been screw*d and the government here had created many contingency plans. Also he attacked Russia, which was daft. If he had not attacked Russia then he would have had enough men and fire power to ensure that the D-day landings came to nothing.
In the end a lot of luck and Hitler's and the Japanese bad decisions allowed for us to take advantage and win.
Not that I am anit-American you did help win the war but I just don't like it when you state that you did it on a whim, we paid you to help and then allowed an atrocity to happen in order for you to join. We signed over a lot of businesses and money to secure victory. The only reason we don't speak German is because Hitler refused to believe that the British Empire had become so weak so did not invade England, if he had decided to invade we would have been screw*d and the government here had created many contingency plans. Also he attacked Russia, which was daft. If he had not attacked Russia then he would have had enough men and fire power to ensure that the D-day landings came to nothing.
In the end a lot of luck and Hitler's and the Japanese bad decisions allowed for us to take advantage and win.
Posted by: History lessons needed! on 6:19pm Mon 30 Jul 07
“The Americans will always do the right thing after they’ve exhausted all the alternatives.” - Churchill
“The Americans will always do the right thing after they’ve exhausted all the alternatives.” - Churchill
Posted by: Gr8 on 6:24pm Mon 30 Jul 07
It was the Japanese that said the "sleeping giant" bit first I'm afraid...
It was the Japanese that said the "sleeping giant" bit first I'm afraid...
Posted by: Graham, Glasgow on 6:26pm Mon 30 Jul 07
History Lesson Needs a History Lesson.
The Yanks could not enter WW11 because of home public opinion not to mention support for Adolf from prominent figures like Ford, Kennedy (Joe), JFs father, even the Vatican that had an arrangement with Adolf. They did however feed our country prior to entering the war. The fact is we would be a satelite of NAZISM IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE YANKS. Is it not ironic that some of the present posters, probably of the looney left would now be Adolf worshippers. Strange old world.[bold]bold[/bold]
History Lesson Needs a History Lesson.
The Yanks could not enter WW11 because of home public opinion not to mention support for Adolf from prominent figures like Ford, Kennedy (Joe), JFs father, even the Vatican that had an arrangement with Adolf. They did however feed our country prior to entering the war. The fact is we would be a satelite of NAZISM IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE YANKS. Is it not ironic that some of the present posters, probably of the looney left would now be Adolf worshippers. Strange old world.
Posted by: Anders Nogiets on 7:02pm Mon 30 Jul 07
I'd just like to point out to some deluded posters on this site, there is not God or "Gawd", so nowhere will get "blessed", whatever you think that might mean.
I'd just like to point out to some deluded posters on this site, there is not God or "Gawd", so nowhere will get "blessed", whatever you think that might mean.
Posted by: Gr8 on 7:10pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Let us not forget that the German and French controlled EU is succeeding where both Hitler and Napoleon failed by taking control of Europe, albeit by peaceful means this time. The UK should opt out of the EU as it is now and revert back to solely free trade in my opinion. Likewise for an independent Scotland, the EU would suck away all of our oil money (which is supposed to save us). Either way the EU is bad for us... FREE TRADE IS ALL WE SIGNED UP TO...
Let us not forget that the German and French controlled EU is succeeding where both Hitler and Napoleon failed by taking control of Europe, albeit by peaceful means this time. The UK should opt out of the EU as it is now and revert back to solely free trade in my opinion. Likewise for an independent Scotland, the EU would suck away all of our oil money (which is supposed to save us). Either way the EU is bad for us... FREE TRADE IS ALL WE SIGNED UP TO...
Posted by: Finnking, Finland on 7:44pm Mon 30 Jul 07
I wonder if Oor Gordon will be visiting other prospective presidents?
Shared values? Aye, the notion that an oil rich nation state MUST NEVER be allowed to control its own agenda without the hoof of empire on its neck.
THe closer politicians get to power the more they stink.
I wonder if Oor Gordon will be visiting other prospective presidents?
Shared values? Aye, the notion that an oil rich nation state MUST NEVER be allowed to control its own agenda without the hoof of empire on its neck.
THe closer politicians get to power the more they stink.
Posted by: Gawd, Up Here on 7:44pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Anders NoGiblets - Your name just went in the book, son. "Not a sparrow **** that I don't know about." Olaf 3:16
You have been warned. Repent! ya glaikit wee baster!
Anders NoGiblets - Your name just went in the book, son. "Not a sparrow **** that I don't know about." Olaf 3:16
You have been warned. Repent! ya glaikit wee baster!
Posted by: Bill England on 7:45pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Brown doesn't know whether he's Scottish, British, European, American or royalty. Is he getting married to Bush in the photo?
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