Refunding of bank overdraft charges moves a step closer
Thousands of bank customers moved a step closer to having their overdraft charges refunded yesterday after the High Court in London ruled that they are subject to official regulation by the Office of Fair Trading.
Campaigners against the fees, which can exceed £30 per transaction and are estimated to earn UK banks between £2bn and £3.5bn a year, said the ruling represented a significant hurdle which could pave the way for future payouts worth more than £1.1bn.
Mr Justice Andrew Smith found that the charges were subject to the OFT's "unfair contract" rules, in a test case brought between the OFT, seven banks and a building society.
But he stressed that the ruling did not cover whether the charges were fair - a matter that is expected to be decided at further hearings later this year.
Until then, thousands of cases brought across the UK by bank customers which have been put on hold by the Financial Services Authority last July will not be able to proceed.
In Scotland, where the FSA waiver is not binding, a handful of cases have been allowed to proceed but the vast majority have been put on hold pending the outcome of the test case.
Mike Dailly, principal solicitor at the Govan Law Centre, who has led the campaign to reclaim charges in Scotland, said it was possible that sheriffs may allow more cases to proceed following the High Court ruling.
"All a sheriff would have to decide is whether the charges are fair and there's absolutely no way the banks can claim they are," he said. "The game's really up for the banks but I imagine they will try to drag this out."
The fall-out between banks and their customers began in 2005 when a handful of people successful argued that they had been charged unfair bank charges.
In the ensuing avalanche of cases which preceded the FSA's waiver, banks were forced to pay out in thousands of cases. Annual results for the major high street banks show they have so far paid out more than £559m in refunds to customers. The actual total will be higher as both Abbey and Nationwide Building Society declined to disclose how much they had refunded.
The charges are incurred when bank customers take out an unauthorised overdraft or breach their authorised limit. The disputed fees can be as much as £35 for a single bounced payment, although campaigners claim the cost to the banks could be as little as £2.50.
In yesterday's ruling, the judge accepted the banks' argument that the terms generally used for personal current accounts were not unenforceable on the grounds of being "penal". And he held that the terms, with a few minor exceptions, were in "plain and intelligible language".
But he rejected their argument that the charges were exempt from assessment for fairness under the regulations. The banks contend that the charges are fees for a service, namely setting up an overdraft, and they are not unfair.
HSBC has said that in the worst-case scenario total refunds could reach £303m if it loses the court case.
The other banks involved declined to predict the total liability they would face if they lost the case, but if like HSBC total payouts would be more than double what they have refunded so far, banks could collectively face a bill of more than £1.1bn from the issue.
Members of the industry have also warned that losing the case is likely to lead to the end of free banking in the UK, with consumers instead having to pay a monthly fee or a fee for every transaction.
The banks involved in the case are Abbey, Barclays, Clydesdale, HBoS, HSBC, Lloyds TSB, RBS and the Nationwide.
A statement by the British Bankers' Association welcomed what it said was a "complex" case but said it would continue to ask county and sheriff courts to put any further individual cases on hold until the test case was resolved.
It's not the practice, it's the amount
Case study
GOING up against a major UK bank and its team of top-flight lawyers was daunting for Paul Harbour, one of the handful of people whose case has been allowed to proceed recently and who initially represented himself in court.
But after submitting his claim last year - a relatively minor matter of some £350 - at Edinburgh Sheriff Court, he was surprised to have been given a sympathetic hearing and eventually won his case.
"I got the money just before Christmas, which made for a nice present. I was just glad, not to get one over on the bank but to get the money I was due. I'm not against banks charging, it's just the amount they charge."
Mr Harbour, 32, who was working as a staff nurse at the time, believes, along with solicitor Mike Dailly, who helped him free of charge in the latter stages of the case, that the point at which the bank decided to settle was when it was asked by the court to provide an explanation for their charges.
"If they have worked out their charges fairly, they should have a document to explain those calculations," Mr Dailly said. "But whenever the banks have been ordered to produce this, they settle the case.
"My suspicion is that no such document exists. The banks haven't worked out the charges in any reasonable manner, they are simply copying what other banks are charging."
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Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:18pm Thu 24 Apr 08
Let's hope we, the customer, win out. Charges are as close to racketeering as banks can get.
Let's hope we, the customer, win out. Charges are as close to racketeering as banks can get.
Posted by: balornock, epsom on 8:45am Fri 25 Apr 08
My daughter's situation has I feel been exploited by her bank with these penal charges and they have made a vast amount of profit out of her demise can anyone inform me as to how I can act on her behalf to challenge the bank? how would I start the proceedings. Many Thanks.
My daughter's situation has I feel been exploited by her bank with these penal charges and they have made a vast amount of profit out of her demise can anyone inform me as to how I can act on her behalf to challenge the bank? how would I start the proceedings. Many Thanks.
Posted by: Carnwarth on 8:45am Fri 25 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
Let's hope we, the customer, win out. Charges are as close to racketeering as banks can get. [/quote] Let's hope the bonkers lawyer-haters who read the Herald note that Mr Harbour was treated well by the Sheriff Court and was advised free of charge by lawyer Mike Dailly.
Los Angeles wrote:
Let's hope we, the customer, win out. Charges are as close to racketeering as banks can get.
Let's hope the bonkers lawyer-haters who read the Herald note that Mr Harbour was treated well by the Sheriff Court and was advised free of charge by lawyer Mike Dailly.
Posted by: toom, Edinburgh on 9:08am Fri 25 Apr 08
There are many who don't manage their money properly, but the charges are still massively excessive. I've had a current account for 40+ years with TSB (now LloydsTSB) and it has always been in credit. It's the linked account to several internet accounts, so if I just happen to make a mistake online, or don't co-ordinate credits and debits correctly, I could accidently go into unauthorised overdraft. That would be automatic without regard to my credit record with them.
The charges are spectacular and as an example of unfair balance of terms, consider:-
LloydsTSB deducted £240 from my account without notifying me. They claimed I'd failed to put a cheque in a deposit envelope when they had in fact processed and cleared the same cheque and got the money. When I happened to notice, they put the money back and added a few pence for three weeks lost interest at 4% AER. Now if I 'd made a mistake and borrowed £240 from them, it would be an unathorised overdraft. They'd want £240 repaid plus interest at about 19% AER and the overdraft charges for these particular three weeks (spanning two separate monthly charging periods) would be £270.
Bear in mind that the threat to introduce monthly charges for banking is not to cover them for lost actual costs, but to replace the large contribution such charges make to their massive profits.
There are many who don't manage their money properly, but the charges are still massively excessive. I've had a current account for 40+ years with TSB (now LloydsTSB) and it has always been in credit. It's the linked account to several internet accounts, so if I just happen to make a mistake online, or don't co-ordinate credits and debits correctly, I could accidently go into unauthorised overdraft. That would be automatic without regard to my credit record with them.
The charges are spectacular and as an example of unfair balance of terms, consider:-
LloydsTSB deducted £240 from my account without notifying me. They claimed I'd failed to put a cheque in a deposit envelope when they had in fact processed and cleared the same cheque and got the money. When I happened to notice, they put the money back and added a few pence for three weeks lost interest at 4% AER. Now if I 'd made a mistake and borrowed £240 from them, it would be an unathorised overdraft. They'd want £240 repaid plus interest at about 19% AER and the overdraft charges for these particular three weeks (spanning two separate monthly charging periods) would be £270.
Bear in mind that the threat to introduce monthly charges for banking is not to cover them for lost actual costs, but to replace the large contribution such charges make to their massive profits.
Posted by: Carnwarth on 9:16am Fri 25 Apr 08
[quote][bold]balornock[/bold] wrote:
My daughter's situation has I feel been exploited by her bank with these penal charges and they have made a vast amount of profit out of her demise can anyone inform me as to how I can act on her behalf to challenge the bank? how would I start the proceedings. Many Thanks.[/quote] There are various websites giving information - try googling. Govan Law Centre hosts the website for Scotland and that might have a link to English sites.
balornock wrote:
My daughter's situation has I feel been exploited by her bank with these penal charges and they have made a vast amount of profit out of her demise can anyone inform me as to how I can act on her behalf to challenge the bank? how would I start the proceedings. Many Thanks.
There are various websites giving information - try googling. Govan Law Centre hosts the website for Scotland and that might have a link to English sites.
Posted by: barrelis, Glasgow on 9:58am Fri 25 Apr 08
[quote][bold]balornock[/bold] wrote:
My daughter's situation has I feel been exploited by her bank with these penal charges and they have made a vast amount of profit out of her demise can anyone inform me as to how I can act on her behalf to challenge the bank? how would I start the proceedings. Many Thanks.[/quote] http://www.moneysavi
ngexpert.com/ is excellent, its gives you step my step instuctions on how to proceed, with template letters and loads of advice. After being fobbed off on numerous occasions by my bank I am now taking to the small claims court. If you can prove that you have financial hardship (I am a full time student) the waiver does not count and they must consider your case. Good luck!
balornock wrote:
My daughter's situation has I feel been exploited by her bank with these penal charges and they have made a vast amount of profit out of her demise can anyone inform me as to how I can act on her behalf to challenge the bank? how would I start the proceedings. Many Thanks.
http://www.moneysavi
ngexpert.com/ is excellent, its gives you step my step instuctions on how to proceed, with template letters and loads of advice. After being fobbed off on numerous occasions by my bank I am now taking to the small claims court. If you can prove that you have financial hardship (I am a full time student) the waiver does not count and they must consider your case. Good luck!
Posted by: stevie, glasgow on 10:22am Fri 25 Apr 08
I wonder how long it will take for us to get our £95 billion back.
Why are we the customer always paying for the **** ups created by the banking classes.
I wonder how long it will take for us to get our £95 billion back.
Why are we the customer always paying for the **** ups created by the banking classes.
Posted by: Gordon_J on 10:56am Fri 25 Apr 08
The sooner the banks give in and pay out the better. RBS owes me a lot!!
The sooner the banks give in and pay out the better. RBS owes me a lot!!
Posted by: sadsack, glasgow on 11:31am Fri 25 Apr 08
Don't hold your breath over RBS paying up, I have had my account closed but charges are continuing to be added to my account.
After numerous phone calls between us the latest [italic]DEAL[/italic]
offered to me was if i borrowed the money from a friend or family member to clear off my account they would give me £100.
I live off sickness benefits and one charge of £38.00 puts me in a bind but it does not stop at £38.00 another £30.00 is added if the charge takes you over the limit. One week I had £50.00 to live on and the next I had Nothing due to charges
Don't hold your breath over RBS paying up, I have had my account closed but charges are continuing to be added to my account.
After numerous phone calls between us the latest
DEAL
offered to me was if i borrowed the money from a friend or family member to clear off my account they would give me £100.
I live off sickness benefits and one charge of £38.00 puts me in a bind but it does not stop at £38.00 another £30.00 is added if the charge takes you over the limit. One week I had £50.00 to live on and the next I had Nothing due to charges
Posted by: IainGlasgow07, glasgow on 12:04pm Fri 25 Apr 08
Most of the people who are hit by these charges are those on tight budgets and/or low incomes who are restricted in what they can get in terms of overdraft limits.
All it takes is one late payment into an account to result in a bounced direct debit resulting in a charge for that, another for going over overdraft limit and often daily charges for being overdrawn.
This can quickly snowball resulting in a mopunting debt being accumulated as more charges get piled on, that these individuals will struggle to pay off if they are already barely balancing their finances month to month. Meanwhile banks are raking in a fortune from this.
Most of the people who are hit by these charges are those on tight budgets and/or low incomes who are restricted in what they can get in terms of overdraft limits.
All it takes is one late payment into an account to result in a bounced direct debit resulting in a charge for that, another for going over overdraft limit and often daily charges for being overdrawn.
This can quickly snowball resulting in a mopunting debt being accumulated as more charges get piled on, that these individuals will struggle to pay off if they are already barely balancing their finances month to month. Meanwhile banks are raking in a fortune from this.
Posted by: sam the god on 12:18pm Fri 25 Apr 08
sadsack you could save a few bob every month if you cancelled your internet.
sadsack you could save a few bob every month if you cancelled your internet.
Posted by: hughmuscat, UK on 12:36pm Fri 25 Apr 08
Don't get overdrawn and you won't get charged. Very simple. Intentionally going overdrawn or being reckless about your finances is tantamount to theft/fraud. Banks should be entitled to penalise people. In some countries bouncing a cheque will land you in prison. Stop moaning and "harden the f*ck up"
Don't get overdrawn and you won't get charged. Very simple. Intentionally going overdrawn or being reckless about your finances is tantamount to theft/fraud. Banks should be entitled to penalise people. In some countries bouncing a cheque will land you in prison. Stop moaning and "harden the f*ck up"
Posted by: tris, scotland on 1:07pm Fri 25 Apr 08
[quote][bold]hughmuscat[/bold] wrote:
Don't get overdrawn and you won't get charged. Very simple. Intentionally going overdrawn or being reckless about your finances is tantamount to theft/fraud. Banks should be entitled to penalise people. In some countries bouncing a cheque will land you in prison. Stop moaning and "harden the f*ck up"[/quote]
Indeed, banks should be entitled to make some charges for people who get overdrawn, but the charges they make are out of proportion to the realistic cost of the overdraft. As has been pointed out, when THEY make a mistake, they aren't nearly as quick to make financial redress.
Not everyone is as incredibly organised and as amazing efficient as you sound, and some people have to juggle with very, very little money.
In the past these people would not have had bank accounts. They would have been paid in cash, and have done all their dealings in cash. Today that is not possible. No one pays in cash; even benefits are paid in into banks, and banks automatically give you an overdraft.
Utilities want paying by DD, and give discount to those who pay that way. Poorer people need the discount. They sign up for these DDs because they are almost forced to.
It only takes one tiny mistake (I'm sure you would never make one of these, but we are not all so perfect), and voila, you are overdrawn by a few pence and a £40 "charge" has been landed on your account.l
It happened to me once because my salary was late in going into the bank. Not my fault. I was overdrawn by 4p, and charged, on this occasion, £25.
The perfect people amongst us really do have to try to understand that not everyone is a wonderful as them. Until they do they will continue to live life feeling as unpleasant and bitter as you sound.
hughmuscat wrote:
Don't get overdrawn and you won't get charged. Very simple. Intentionally going overdrawn or being reckless about your finances is tantamount to theft/fraud. Banks should be entitled to penalise people. In some countries bouncing a cheque will land you in prison. Stop moaning and "harden the f*ck up"
Indeed, banks should be entitled to make some charges for people who get overdrawn, but the charges they make are out of proportion to the realistic cost of the overdraft. As has been pointed out, when THEY make a mistake, they aren't nearly as quick to make financial redress.
Not everyone is as incredibly organised and as amazing efficient as you sound, and some people have to juggle with very, very little money.
In the past these people would not have had bank accounts. They would have been paid in cash, and have done all their dealings in cash. Today that is not possible. No one pays in cash; even benefits are paid in into banks, and banks automatically give you an overdraft.
Utilities want paying by DD, and give discount to those who pay that way. Poorer people need the discount. They sign up for these DDs because they are almost forced to.
It only takes one tiny mistake (I'm sure you would never make one of these, but we are not all so perfect), and voila, you are overdrawn by a few pence and a £40 "charge" has been landed on your account.l
It happened to me once because my salary was late in going into the bank. Not my fault. I was overdrawn by 4p, and charged, on this occasion, £25.
The perfect people amongst us really do have to try to understand that not everyone is a wonderful as them. Until they do they will continue to live life feeling as unpleasant and bitter as you sound.
Posted by: hughmuscat, UK on 1:29pm Fri 25 Apr 08
Tris
Rather pleasnt and sweet as it happens. Life is good. I have been charged a few times. My fault and I have taken the hit. I am not perfect but I do my best to avoid incurring charges precisely because they are so penal. Make them "proportionate" and people will just take advantage, factor that into their spending and become even more irresponsible. We all know the deal, we get the terms and conditions. I know we have little or no choice and have to use banks. As for your late pay, you should have asked your employer to re-imburse you.
Tris
Rather pleasnt and sweet as it happens. Life is good. I have been charged a few times. My fault and I have taken the hit. I am not perfect but I do my best to avoid incurring charges precisely because they are so penal. Make them "proportionate" and people will just take advantage, factor that into their spending and become even more irresponsible. We all know the deal, we get the terms and conditions. I know we have little or no choice and have to use banks. As for your late pay, you should have asked your employer to re-imburse you.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 2:19pm Fri 25 Apr 08
hughmuscat,
I did .... and he wouldn't.
But as I said, some people live so near the mark they just can't help it, and some are simply not good at the paperwork and tracking that is involved in keeping an account in credit, whilst managing on a shoestring. (You obviously can, but then maybe you're not on a shoestring.)
It was easier for them when they only had cash. When they were out of money, they were out of money. Of course there are, I admit freely, people who would take advantage of any kind of credit going!
Talking about being irresponsible about spending.... perhaps the banks should be charged the same penal rates by Darling-Brown over their recent behaviour, and their need for "overdrafts" of £100 billion!
PS: I'm glad you're not as bitter as you sounded in your first post. :)
hughmuscat,
I did .... and he wouldn't.
But as I said, some people live so near the mark they just can't help it, and some are simply not good at the paperwork and tracking that is involved in keeping an account in credit, whilst managing on a shoestring. (You obviously can, but then maybe you're not on a shoestring.)
It was easier for them when they only had cash. When they were out of money, they were out of money. Of course there are, I admit freely, people who would take advantage of any kind of credit going!
Talking about being irresponsible about spending.... perhaps the banks should be charged the same penal rates by Darling-Brown over their recent behaviour, and their need for "overdrafts" of £100 billion!
PS: I'm glad you're not as bitter as you sounded in your first post. :)
Posted by: hughmuscat, UK on 5:00pm Fri 25 Apr 08
Tris
I think we are in agreement to some extent. If the Chancellor had any balls he should have made a condition of the 50 billion bail out that the banks had to give the Treasury half their profits for the next five years.
Tris
I think we are in agreement to some extent. If the Chancellor had any balls he should have made a condition of the 50 billion bail out that the banks had to give the Treasury half their profits for the next five years.
Posted by: Robert Wood, Kansas USA, formerly Dunoon on 10:53pm Fri 25 Apr 08
If the Banks can afford to pay their ceo's in excess of 1 million pounds per annum, then they should be able to abolish these exorbitant charges which can only be described as fines for not playing by their rules.
If the Banks can afford to pay their ceo's in excess of 1 million pounds per annum, then they should be able to abolish these exorbitant charges which can only be described as fines for not playing by their rules.
Posted by: haggismcfaggis, Scotland on 2:18pm Sat 26 Apr 08
Thing that really bugs me about my bank, the Abbey, is if I put in a cheque which hasn't yet cleared, they will bounce any DDs due at the time, but it they are taking off charges, they remove the money from the uncleared balance. I'm really fed up with £35 and £25 charges all to do with one bounced DD.
I think its also true that the whole set up of modern day banking conspires to encourage people to lose sight of what's going on with their bank accounts. It just takes one very busy life and banking that is invisible to create havoc - with my finances anyway. I dont consider myself irresponsible, sometimes I think I like so many other working people perform miracles making ends meet. overcharging needs to be stopped.
Thing that really bugs me about my bank, the Abbey, is if I put in a cheque which hasn't yet cleared, they will bounce any DDs due at the time, but it they are taking off charges, they remove the money from the uncleared balance. I'm really fed up with £35 and £25 charges all to do with one bounced DD.
I think its also true that the whole set up of modern day banking conspires to encourage people to lose sight of what's going on with their bank accounts. It just takes one very busy life and banking that is invisible to create havoc - with my finances anyway. I dont consider myself irresponsible, sometimes I think I like so many other working people perform miracles making ends meet. overcharging needs to be stopped.
Posted by: haggismcfaggis, Scotland on 2:19pm Sat 26 Apr 08
Thing that really bugs me about my bank, the Abbey, is if I put in a cheque which hasn't yet cleared, they will bounce any DDs due at the time, but it they are taking off charges, they remove the money from the uncleared balance. I'm really fed up with £35 and £25 charges all to do with one bounced DD.
I think its also true that the whole set up of modern day banking conspires to encourage people to lose sight of what's going on with their bank accounts. It just takes one very busy life and banking that is invisible to create havoc - with my finances anyway. I dont consider myself irresponsible, sometimes I think I like so many other working people perform miracles making ends meet. overcharging needs to be stopped.
Thing that really bugs me about my bank, the Abbey, is if I put in a cheque which hasn't yet cleared, they will bounce any DDs due at the time, but it they are taking off charges, they remove the money from the uncleared balance. I'm really fed up with £35 and £25 charges all to do with one bounced DD.
I think its also true that the whole set up of modern day banking conspires to encourage people to lose sight of what's going on with their bank accounts. It just takes one very busy life and banking that is invisible to create havoc - with my finances anyway. I dont consider myself irresponsible, sometimes I think I like so many other working people perform miracles making ends meet. overcharging needs to be stopped.