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More powers for a devolved parliament will only delay inevitable secession of Scotland
YOUR LETTERSMay 16 2008

Neil Ascherson suggests presciently a "velvet divorce" between Scotland and the rest of this increasingly dis-United Kingdom (May 15). Is there really much difference between an increasing sense of "national" (or any other type) phobia and opposing awareness? The answer is no, as is obvious in all societies. Since the Act of Union in 1707, it has never really been an indispensable pillar of parliamentary democracy, for in any major topic benefiting the electorate south of the border to its advantage it has been carried because of the gross imbalance in the number of Scottish MPs, whether in government or in opposition, in relation to the remaining majority: the picture is further clouded by the fact that the voter turnout is becoming increasingly small and thus even less representative of national voting patterns. As for "Britishness", that is well past its sell-by date.

John Curtice focuses on the challenge facing the Union (May 15) but suggests that although devolution has benefited Scotland, most of the voters still wish to remain within the Union; however, the same hurdles remain for the Unionists, for they will progressively see English political dominance at Westminster should, as is almost certain, the Conservatives gain power but they are almost a spent force here. The SNP has gained respect at home for its stance in opposing the Westminster government as thought appropriate and for implementing a raft of necessary policies within the past year. More autonomy within the Union will only be a short-term solution to retaining the status quo, for the electorate here is increasingly witnessing the unwelcome, costly, social, political, economic and destructive policies being implemented at the "national" and international levels by the government.

It is the people at large who are the defining source of political authority; thus, the only type of political elite allowed is the one that will repudiate its elite status and claim to speak for the many rather than the few.

We will not witness this in Scotland while under Westminster domination.

Ian F M Saint-Yves, Whiting Bay, Arran.

Lib-Dem MSP Robert Brown claims (Letters, May 15) that his party "gave up the opportunity to be in government because of our opposition to Scotland separating from the rest of the UK".

Even in coalition, the Lib-Dems would have been perfectly free to campaign against independence in the 2010 referendum. But, in the meantime, they could have had 90% of their own policies (most of which are broadly similar to those of the SNP) on the statute book. The words "nose", "spite" and "face" come to mind, as does the phrase "political naivety". By declining the SNP invitation to join in a coalition government last May, the Lib-Dems made it clear that they do not believe in the sovereign right of the Scottish people to decide their own destiny and the future of their country. Not very liberal or democratic, I would say.

Iain A D Mann, Glasgow.

Robert Brown, Lib-Dem MSP, mocks the Tories for their "six positions since 1967" on devolution. He then proclaims that the Liberal Democrats have consistently supported home rule for Scotland within the Union.

Curiously, the word "federalism" does not appear once in his letter. The official Lib-Dem position is for a federal Britain which is rather different from devolution. However, their silence on the issue is now quite deafening.

I would have thought the Lib-Dems would have welcomed the election of an SNP government as providing the possibility of a referendum that could have included a federal alternative to independence. Or they could have backed Wendy Alexander's referendum on condition that federalism was an option. Are they pushing for a federal settlement within the Consititutional Commission?

If so, they are being very coy about it. Why don't they admit the truth: a federal arrangement involving a nation of 60 million and one of five million is a nonsense.

Either the federal parliament grants equal representation to each of the nations involved - fat chance! - or we are back to an English-dominated federal parliament. Federalism is dead in the water.

Doug Bain, Glasgow.

Gordon Brown is today touring the studios to convince us that he has the solutions to all our problems, including the one created by his Budget last year.

In what must be the most expensive by-election bribe in history, he is borrowing £2.7bn to raise the tax threshold by £600.

However, I don't think it is going to work. First, there are about one million people who will still be worse off because of the abolition of the 10p tax rate.

Also, since the raising of the tax threshold is for all basic-rate taxpayers, it won't take long for the five million people who lost out initially to work out that they are still worse off compared to other taxpayers.Finally, the bribe is for one year only and they won't see it until September, not enough, I fancy, to save the Crewe and Nantwich by-election.

The rest of the Queen's speech announcements are minor affairs mainly for show, some of them stolen from the Tories and many of them don't apply to Scotland.

What we see increasingly is a floundering Prime Minister desperate to convince us that he is in charge and can save us from the troubles of the world. His major problem is that he has been in charge of our social and economic policy for 11 years and people are asking why he hasn't solved these problems before already.

The implications of the likely defeat of Labour at Westminster make the debate about independence in Scotland ever more important. In 2010, we are likely to have a Tory government at Westminster with perhaps one or two Tory MPs from Scotland.

Faced with that, Scots are more likely to choose taking charge of their own affairs, and Labour's recent disarray over the referendum means that Labour cannot deny that vote. It is going to be an interesting two years in Scottish politics.

Hugh Kerr, Edinburgh.


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Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 10:03pm Thu 15 May 08
Faced with that, Scots are more likely to choose taking charge of their own affairs, and Labour's recent disarray over the referendum means that Labour cannot deny that vote. It is going to be an interesting two years in Scottish politics.
-Hugh Kerr, Edinburgh.

Interesting, maybe. But Eck and the Nats failed to convert "Labour's recent disarray over the referendum" into civil war inside New Labour by calling Wendy's bluff. Do not be so confident, Hugh, that "Labour cannot deny that vote." For Labour read "Gordon Brown" who swatted any talk of the Wendyrendum. He will do the same in 2010 if it suits him and Wendy & Co. will fall dutifully into line just as they did last week, hiding behind a fig-leaf of "tactics".
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 10:22pm Thu 15 May 08
COMMENTS BLACKOUT ON SCOTTISH POLITICAL ARTICLES CONTINUES.

Casual readers of The Herald should be aware that readers are being prevented from making online comments on Scottish political articles. The Herald blackout also includes articles relating to Rangers football fans.

This blackout is the second such from The Herald and follows a similar pattern to the first being that it coincided with the Labour party in apparent turmoil.

There has been no explanation forthcoming from The Herald editorial team and we are therefore forced to conclude that online comments are not to the liking of those in authority.
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 11:47pm Thu 15 May 08
People are posting on these articles anyway, so what is the Herald's problem? The ban can be circumvented by inserting into the first posting on any article with a comments section, an invitation to posters to comment on a particular political article.

It might finish up with a complete blackout on comments, but where would the reporters in this newspaper get ideas and inspiration for their articles then?

Posted by: Brian D Finch, Brigadoon on 7:46am Fri 16 May 08
JWIL:
...where would the reporters in this newspaper get ideas and inspiration for their articles then?
New Labour.
Posted by: Hugh Kerr, Edinburgh on 8:01am Fri 16 May 08
Cynicus Gordon Brown will be history by 2010 he will resign after losing the election and will be succeeded by that nice young man Milliband (not half the man his father was!).Scottish Labour will support a referendum otherwise they will be crucified at the 2011 elections indeed the only hope for Labour in Scotland is to break from control by London.
Posted by: nil on 9:29am Fri 16 May 08
Awaab Raja wrote:
An independence referendum is of course a deliberate ploy to distract the voters attention from the main problem in Scotland which is mass immigration.

It is mass immigration, supported by the SNP and the unionist parties, which means that Scots now have to compete on a global level for local jobs. This drives down wages and destroys hard won trade union terms and conditions.

Scottish children have seen their education disrupted by the arrival of thousands of foreign children into our schools. Resources which should be going to Scottish children are being spread more thinly thus adver sely affecting the life chances of our children.

An independence referendum does nothing to address the problems caused by mass immigration.

An interesting position you take there given that Scotland is widely regarded as having a declining population that means we'll likely see it fall under 5m by 2025. I'll be charitable and suggest that you misunderstood emigration as immigration and took it from there. Being less charitable, I'd suggest spouting your nonsense elsewhere.
Posted by: Awaab Raja, EDINBURGH on 9:39am Fri 16 May 08
Scotland has a rapidly rising population as anyone walking about any town or village in Scotland can see. It is a complete nonsense to state that the population is declining.

Thousands of eas tern Europeans, Africans and Asians have moved to Scotland as have many English and Irish.

People who support mass immigration deliberately claim a falling population as some sort of justification for mass immigration.

Posted by: Hugh Kerr, Edinburgh on 9:45am Fri 16 May 08
Awaab Raja I wonder what your real name is, care to elaborate? You are a nasty little racist who doesnt belong on the Herald go and post on your natural habitat the BNP site I suggest the best policy for other posters is to ignore your racist drivel.
Posted by: GML, right here on 10:23am Fri 16 May 08
No-one's going to fall for that stuff "Awaab Raja".
Try the Daily Record website, or better still the Telegraph.

If anyon is interested in Scotland's actual population statistics, visit the Scottish government website. There you will see data showing the shocking fall in Scotland's population during the baby boom era (think about that again for a minute) resulting from mass emigration due to lack of opportunity at home. And, I would like to remind everyone, that is the same era when UK prime minister Harold MacMillan advised us that we had "never had it so good".

That is the history of the British union in a nutshell, if you ask me.
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 11:38am Fri 16 May 08
Awaab Raja, a moron just waiting for a comment. What a nasty little racist! Awaa Yaradge more like....
Posted by: nil on 12:16pm Fri 16 May 08
Awaab Raja wrote:
Scotland has a rapidly rising population as anyone walking about any town or village in Scotland can see. It is a complete nonsense to state that the population is declining.

Thousands of eas tern Europeans, Africans and Asians have moved to Scotland as have many English and Irish.

People who support mass immigration deliberately claim a falling population as some sort of justification for mass immigration.

Tempted as I am to folllow Hugh Kerr's suggestion, I'd rather show up Awaab Raja's argument for what it is.

http://www.esrcsocie
tytoday.ac.uk/ESRCIn
foCentre/PO/releases
/2005/april/index2.a
spx?ComponentId=8666
&SourcePageId=6482

http://www.scotland.
gov.uk/News/Releases
/2001/11/606

Away back to trolling other websites with your nonsense.
Posted by: chris walker, west kilbride on 12:23pm Fri 16 May 08
To Brian D Finch

Hi where have you been?

I think that Awaab Raja may well be Tim aka Lou aka Tom. Their neofascist rhetoric is very similar as is their strange choice of names and their compelling need to forever change them. They tend to disappear for a while and then re-emerge from whichever stone they live under. You will recall somebody called "Tom" whom you referred to as "repellent" only a few weeks ago and whom you thankfully with Usconbuts, Observer, Sam and myself, repelled the repellent, as it were.

The support of many others also helped to chase him from these boards. Your adjective 'repellent' was apposite and more importantly, effective, for he did indeed disappear. The last I heard he had been reported to Bearsden Police Department. I don't know if he was apprehended although he deserved to be.

Anyways, the repellent Tom has manifested himself (via repellent Lou) as repellent Tim, and he is still....... repellent. Awaab Raja may well be his latest appellation since anonymity is the cloak they both use to attack others. They disgust them as well apparently.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:52pm Fri 16 May 08
Chris

Awaab Raja has been around for some time. He is a sad little racist and a Unionist to boot, but I don't think he has the unique dstinction of being Tom from Bearsden.

I am with Cynicus on this issue, I still mourn the chance the SNP missed to call Wendy's bluff - especially now that we know it was a bluff. Hugh Kerr may very well be right, but how can we predict what will happen in two years time ? All that we do know is that whoever is in power will be playing to the English vote, not the Scottish one. So whether a referendum is blocked or supported will be a matter of political expediency relative to the position down South. T'was ever thus.

Alternatively, if Labour do break free - and if you look at indicators that is a real possibility - then the tartan shawl effect could kick in.
Posted by: Deasún, Glasgow on 1:12pm Fri 16 May 08
Well said Doug. The only way the federalism could work in the UK is if England is ready to dissolve into 6 or 7 'regions' and there is absolutely no appetite for this. Also, how would a UK federal assembly work? What powers would be reserved and how would decisions be made. Majority voting? The right to veto? Could we have policy on abortion vetoed by Northern Ireland? And we haven’t even got to financial considerations. Would £25million a day in tax revenue from the North Sea still head straight to the UK treasury, for example?

I'm not against federalism per se , I just can't see how would work in the present day UK.
Posted by: GML, right here on 1:28pm Fri 16 May 08
Deasun
It is more than £25 million a day now. The Forties pipeline system is now worth £30M/day alone.

regards
GML
Posted by: Angus on 1:49pm Fri 16 May 08
If Wendy got her way and a vote was done right now the latest poll shows a majority wouldnt vote for independence. How does that help the SNP or the independence question?
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 1:57pm Fri 16 May 08
Angus wrote:
If Wendy got her way and a vote was done right now the latest poll shows a majority wouldnt vote for independence. How does that help the SNP or the independence question?
Wendy was bluffing, she had no authority to say what she did. However, if, speculatively, she had the authority to proceed to a straightforward yes/no vote, the vote could have been held about six to nine months before the SNP's timetabled one.

As it is, we are all left wondering what happens next, and the SNP are always going to be taunted by the opposition for rejecting the option out of hand.
Posted by: Stringman on 1:57pm Fri 16 May 08
The comments that were under the 'Police hurt in Manchester' story were the best thing I have ever read here. They have now been wiped.
Herald - keep pulling these stunts and your sales will fall even lower.
Posted by: Bill Forbes, Cambuslang on 2:59pm Fri 16 May 08
The soothsaying properties of Neal Ascherson are unfortunately much over rated. I suggest he has perhaps taken some of his knowledge based on his work in Prague and applied it directly to the Scottish independence scenario – but to do so he has had to vigorously massage some of the figures. His Velvet Divorce might get shelf space beside Dan Brown but it really isn’t to be taken too seriously.

Indeed the whole question of an independence referendum in 2010 might be up there beside the other fantasy writings. As things currently stand, I doubt if there would be such a plebiscite and it looks more and more that Alex Salmond is waiting to see
i) how the SNP performs in Government, and (more important)
ii) how the 2010 (or earlier) Election fares.
Either way I see his delay as deliberate and calculated – it certainly has nothing to do with listening to the people (if his National Conversation shows that there is no appetite for Independence do you really think he will listen to it?). Wendy perhaps saw something like this too but handled the delivery quite badly.
As the rest of you are heavily into predicting the future I may as well add my tuppence worth. So here is what I see in my crystal balls:
1. IF LABOUR GET BACK IN, IN 2010
The SNP will deliver the Referendum question in a form which they know will be unacceptable to the Scottish Unionists. They will be voted down and they will then fight the 2011 Scottish Elections on the basis of the big bad Unionists not allowing “the people” to have a say.
2. IF THE CONSERVATIVES GET IN
Alex Salmond will hope to hold the balance of power either alone or with other minority regional parties and will promise the Tories his backing in exchange for his referendum, his way. He can then enter the 2011 Election with a reason for delaying or postponing his earlier commitment safe in the knowledge that he has the Scottish Conservatives mute if not onside.

No, the best we will get this term is a charade of a referendum – playing with the people in the hope of making political capital, knowing full well that the Unionists will vote his Bill down. The one thing I doubt Alex Salmond wants at this stage is a question on independence – particularly a multi-faceted one. (Did you see Nicola dodge the generational question on last nights Politics Now?).

Nil wrote:
Scotland is widely regarded as having a declining population that means we'll likely see it fall under 5m by 2025


Whether Awaab Raja is or is not a racist – he is right. Scotland’s population is on the increase. Your two sources are a little out of date (2001 and 2005). Read the up to date opinions of the Registrar offered during the term of an SNP government no less. See

http://www.gro-scotl
and.gov.uk
/press/2008-news/pop
ulation-projections-
for-scotlands-counci
l-areas.html

In January 2008, the GROS figures predicted that Scotland's population would rise to 5.37 million by 2031 and that is based on the existing migration patterns holding as at present – positive immigration but at no increased rates.

Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 4:55pm Fri 16 May 08


To Brian D Finch: Hi where have you been?
-chris walker, west kilbride on 12:23pm today

He has been absorbing the energies (recently) of Cynicus, David Lewis, Usconbuts, Hugh V. McLaughln, T McLachlan and others on a marathon thread

http://www.theherald
.co.uk/features/lett
ers/display.var.2220
982.0.0.php

You yourself were an early participant in the thread (How can society provide for those who do not believe in God?). Only the equivalent of Grand National stayers are still pressing on. Mr Finch is one.


Cynicus Gordon Brown will be history by 2010
-Hugh Kerr, Edinburgh on 8:01am today

Maybe then. But I thought you were with Observer, Chris and myself on this one -a great missed opportunity to call Wendy's bluff. I am the most pessimistic of us. Because the "feartie" tendency prevailed in the SNP, 2010 is back to the future: 1979.


(or

Posted by: Awaab Raja, EDINBURGH on 6:10pm Fri 16 May 08
Mass immigration is against the interests of the Scottish working class.

Those who support mass immigration are the enemies of the working class.

Those of us who support the Scottish working class will not be silenced by the enemies of the working class.

Working class people and their children in Scotland are paying a heavy price for the cheap labour currently flooding into Scotland.

Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 7:23pm Fri 16 May 08
Don't be ridiculous Awaab Raja. You sound like Enoch Powell. What someone who is truly on the side of the working class, which includes immigrants, would do is support strong trade unions and a root and breanch reform of employment law. That means that both immigrants and the indigenous population would be protected from rogue employers.

And consider this, without new Scots and their children more schools would have to close. Are you in favour of that Awaab Raja ?

Now stop masquerading as a socialist and away and join the BNP where you belong.
Posted by: Patrick Kirkwood, West Kilbride on 9:22pm Fri 16 May 08
Rants on mass immigration relate to Scotland's constitutional future how?
Posted by: stonehaven on 9:52am Sat 17 May 08
Awaab Raja wrote:
Scotland has a rapidly rising population as anyone walking about any town or village in Scotland can see. It is a complete nonsense to state that the population is declining.

Thousands of eas tern Europeans, Africans and Asians have moved to Scotland as have many English and Irish.

People who support mass immigration deliberately claim a falling population as some sort of justification for mass immigration.

Complete unadulterated nonsense.
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