Whether by error or design, Alexander was asserting Scotland’s rights
Now that the savage and almost universal criticism of Wendy Alexander has passed its peak, has she not, either by design or error, made a valuable contribution to supporting the democratic right of the Scottish people freely to select, by referendum, their future form of government?
Did not leading Unionists combine politically to campaign for, and to plan, the structure of the proposed Scottish Parliament/Executive?
This campaign led to the "Claim of Rights" strongly proclaiming that the Scottish people had the right to determine their own future.
A right they established in 1320 when the Declaration of Arbroath was accepted against all feudal Europe's trends by the then international arbiter, Pope John XXII.
The Labour government, prompted by the late Donald Dewar, accepted this position. It presented two complementary options to the Scottish people. Both were supported by a good majority in the referendum.
Time has shown that this executive/government is unable effectively to meet the essential needs and desires of the Scottish people.
Our government has virtually
no "commercially acceptable" tax-raising powers.
Almost 50% of Scotland's important reserves of gas and oil have been squandered with no real adequate sustainable benefit to our people.
Fortunately, the remaining more valuable 50% can provide much
more benefit under a Scottish Government.
All parties seem to agree that the present position is untenable. The Calman Commission of prominent people (none of whom seems to have an SNP connection) has been set up by the British government to recommend future change or changes short of independence.
Now that Ms Alexander has so prominently committed the Labour MSPs to voting for a referendum that contains an independence option, is it not advisable for the Calman Commission now to consider a con-federal solution which could mean that all the taxation raised in Scotland was paid into a Scottish exchequer. This exchequer would decide how much money Scotland needs for its many grievous social problems and what contribution it could then make to Westminster for international affairs, the armed services and the crown.
Is such a choice the best hope the Unionists can have to limit the Scottish independence vote, given the political situation that is likely to exist in 2010?
Would it not attract radical Labour and Liberal voters who strongly oppose more vast expenditure in unnecessary future wars?
Will those who are now clamouring for Ms Alexander's blood be then suggesting that she should be considered as a possible saint for preventing an even larger vote for Scottish independence?
Councillor Gordon Murray,
Civic Centre, Windmillhill Street,
Motherwell.
Robert Brown is to be applauded for doing everything he can to keep his party on the radar screen. But it ill-behoves him to criticise the Scottish Conservatives for delivering more police, helping to cut costs for our small businesses and securing a new national drugs strategy for Scotland, all the result of Scottish Conservative pressure which made the Scottish Government's budget better.
Robert Brown should remind everyone that, unlike the Scottish Conservatives, it was his party which for eight years lay locked into a
sterile coalition with an increasingly unpopular Labour Party. I don't recall him apologising for all the trappings of ministerial office which the
LibDems enjoyed. By contrast, the Scottish Conservatives are in nobody's pocket - we work on an issue-by-issue basis, doing what is right for the people of Scotland.
Bill Aitken, MSP,
The Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh.
Much as I would like to agree, I cannot for the life of me see why the imploding New Labour Party is a "boost for independence". It's certainly a boost for the Tories, at the UK level at least, and it will similarly boost SNP popularity in Scotland. How could it be otherwise? Where I have a problem is with this notion of self-destructing Labour as an automatic causality in "boosting independence".
Too little attention is being paid in the political discourse of Scotland to the paradox of the quality of governance that the SNP government is providing buttressing the status quo. A bit of fiscal autonomy added between now and 2010 and that acute sense of comfort will be intensified.
If the West Lothian question remains forever the unanswerable conundrum of devolution, so will the Tartan Shawl effect continue to erode the option of independence. A putative Tory government determined to ensure that the UK stays intact, and with all its imperial pretensions similarly in place, will be well placed to seduce those among us to wrap that Tartan Shawl around them, tightly. The tranche of goodies will become an avalanche. And that UK seat at the UN Security Council will also resonate with a certain kind of Scot. But what to do?
What to do is to ensure that the emphasis switches in the political discourse in Scotland to a sustained rhetoric about the referendum and how it is to be won for independence and away from a self-preening, look-how-well-we-are-doing posture at Holyrood. The explosive change from minor to major will make that largely irrelevant. We missed a great chance last week amid Ms Alexander's insanity, but that political opportunity has gone in large part. The future is still ours to win. Let's win it on the issues that will shape the referendum outcome, and let's do so starting now.
Chris Walker,
21/23 Main Street, West Kilbride.
I am surprised that the Scottish Labour MPs have not accused Wendy Alexander of picking a fight with Westminster.
Nick Dekker,
1 Nairn Way, Cumbernauld.
© All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without
permission is prohibited.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 10:16pm Tue 13 May 08
My personal hope is that Wendy's fight with Westminster, and apparently with everyone else too, will focus the political spotlight on an early referendum. Even if that is in response to Labour's new tactic of calling the SNP feart - or yellower than the colour yellow as Wendy said on the Politics show.
Whilst it is important that the SNP show good governance - as they have - there is only so long their luck will last, as with any political party - ask Labour.
Their raison d'etre is independence, and that should be the focus for all of us. If we spend too long in the political dirt playing party politics, we are liable to get mired in it.
My personal hope is that Wendy's fight with Westminster, and apparently with everyone else too, will focus the political spotlight on an early referendum. Even if that is in response to Labour's new tactic of calling the SNP feart - or yellower than the colour yellow as Wendy said on the Politics show.
Whilst it is important that the SNP show good governance - as they have - there is only so long their luck will last, as with any political party - ask Labour.
Their raison d'etre is independence, and that should be the focus for all of us. If we spend too long in the political dirt playing party politics, we are liable to get mired in it.
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh on 11:42pm Tue 13 May 08
Labour's latest position is that they might well now vote the bill down. London has called and the 'Claim of Right' is oot the windae.
Let's be clear about this the British Government DOES NOT support the sovereign right of the Scottish people to choose independence.
The proof is here:
[bold][quote]www.independence1st.
com/comment/not_acce
ptable.shtml[/quote][/bold]
Up till recently it seemed that Labour, Tories and Lib Dems didn't either because all refused to countenance a referendum on independence and yet this is the only point of genuine conflict.
Scottish Labour (if there is such a beast) in the shape of Wendy Alexander seemed to have changed their tune for a brief moment but they have rapidly returned to form.
All the parties would supposedly support more powers for the parliament, I say supposedly because the Tories simply cannot be trusted in this area as their last period in Government showed quite clearly.
If all parties support more powers then the SNP can easily accept Calman's recomendations whenever they are published, but as they will still be far short of independence this won't resolve a thing.
We would also then have to rely on Westminster implementing any changes and not fiddling with the powers of the parliament in a detrimental fashion. In fact Labour have already fiddled the electoral system in the Welsh parliament so they can't be trusted in this respect either. brown has already signalled that he wants a number of inconvenient powers removed and they ignored elements of the last broad based constitutional convention so they can easily ignore their own hand picked cabal of safe unionists (they are so safe they will possibly say the status quo is just fine!).
The only way to guarantee as much power as the parliament requires is by voting for independence. Those who oppose that decision don't support the sovereign right of the Scottish people to decide their own destiny and as such don't deserve one vote in Scotland.
Labour's latest position is that they might well now vote the bill down. London has called and the 'Claim of Right' is oot the windae.
Let's be clear about this the British Government DOES NOT support the sovereign right of the Scottish people to choose independence.
The proof is here:
www.independence1st.
com/comment/not_acce
ptable.shtml
Up till recently it seemed that Labour, Tories and Lib Dems didn't either because all refused to countenance a referendum on independence and yet this is the only point of genuine conflict.
Scottish Labour (if there is such a beast) in the shape of Wendy Alexander seemed to have changed their tune for a brief moment but they have rapidly returned to form.
All the parties would supposedly support more powers for the parliament, I say supposedly because the Tories simply cannot be trusted in this area as their last period in Government showed quite clearly.
If all parties support more powers then the SNP can easily accept Calman's recomendations whenever they are published, but as they will still be far short of independence this won't resolve a thing.
We would also then have to rely on Westminster implementing any changes and not fiddling with the powers of the parliament in a detrimental fashion. In fact Labour have already fiddled the electoral system in the Welsh parliament so they can't be trusted in this respect either. brown has already signalled that he wants a number of inconvenient powers removed and they ignored elements of the last broad based constitutional convention so they can easily ignore their own hand picked cabal of safe unionists (they are so safe they will possibly say the status quo is just fine!).
The only way to guarantee as much power as the parliament requires is by voting for independence. Those who oppose that decision don't support the sovereign right of the Scottish people to decide their own destiny and as such don't deserve one vote in Scotland.
Posted by: Vivas, Embra on 11:47pm Tue 13 May 08
Ah ... a coonciller that can write. However he obviously knows his place and is happy to defer to his betters it seems ! The only thing missing was the ceremonial bow of the head in his writings.
"The Calman Commission of [bold]prominent people[/bold] (none of whom seems to have an SNP connection) has been set up by [bold]the British government[/bold] to recommend future change or changes short of independence."
"Prominent people" and "the British government" eh ? Phew ! How can it go wrong ! Just glad that all out interests are going to be looked after by these unelected unrepresentative "prominent people".
LMFAO !
Ah ... a coonciller that can write. However he obviously knows his place and is happy to defer to his betters it seems ! The only thing missing was the ceremonial bow of the head in his writings.
"The Calman Commission of
prominent people (none of whom seems to have an SNP connection) has been set up by
the British government to recommend future change or changes short of independence."
"Prominent people" and "the British government" eh ? Phew ! How can it go wrong ! Just glad that all out interests are going to be looked after by these unelected unrepresentative "prominent people".
LMFAO !
Posted by: ratzo on 11:51pm Tue 13 May 08
Good letter from Chris Walker though maybe it was also worth drawing a parallel between the pace of Scottish withdrawal from Westminster and the similarly tentative pace of European integration.
Good letter from Chris Walker though maybe it was also worth drawing a parallel between the pace of Scottish withdrawal from Westminster and the similarly tentative pace of European integration.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 12:47am Wed 14 May 08
[quote]We missed a great chance last week amid Ms Alexander's insanity, but that political opportunity has gone in large part.[/quote]-Chris Walker, 21/23 Main Street, West Kilbride
A great chance Chris -as you and others argued here below. But just how great a chance we did not realise at the time. The subsequent 4/5 day' events in the disintegration of Labour both here south of the border have magnified that missed opportunity to even larger proportions than even we discerned last week.
We missed a great chance last week amid Ms Alexander's insanity, but that political opportunity has gone in large part.
-Chris Walker, 21/23 Main Street, West Kilbride
A great chance Chris -as you and others argued here below. But just how great a chance we did not realise at the time. The subsequent 4/5 day' events in the disintegration of Labour both here south of the border have magnified that missed opportunity to even larger proportions than even we discerned last week.
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh, Scotland on 12:52am Wed 14 May 08
We have no seat at the UN at the moment so the UK's seat in the security council does not help us one iota. Since Alexander has now changed her position again it would have been extremely foolish for the SNP to put any trust in her plans.
The SNP are attempting to engage 'civil Scotland' that needs to happen effectively for a referendum campaign to succeed and be properly fought.
We have no seat at the UN at the moment so the UK's seat in the security council does not help us one iota. Since Alexander has now changed her position again it would have been extremely foolish for the SNP to put any trust in her plans.
The SNP are attempting to engage 'civil Scotland' that needs to happen effectively for a referendum campaign to succeed and be properly fought.
Posted by: Clarinda, Tayside on 12:54am Wed 14 May 08
Reading that perhaps Gordon Brown will survive due to sympathy for him as the underdog plagued by the even more despised Cherie Blair, Lord Levy and John Prescott via their publications. With Darling handing out cash in lieu of taxing the poor and Labour's body-shock over the past week to jolt them into what sense they may have - if they continue to pinch the better Conservatives ideas and policies, (no wonder Mr Cameron is reluctant to voice Tory policy)perhaps they could win a GE again in 2010. A week is a long time - two years is a century where anything could, and usually does, happen.
I really hope the potential of last week to seize the referendum initiative and stick it to Labour's arrogant ignorance will not be regretted. With SLab now back-tracking on their previous support for Wendy's 'Bring it on' - the SNP may be back to square one against a cornered Labour fighting dirty for its life and a Tory party who may have peaked too soon - and Boris is still on Honeymoon.
Do we really think that the unionists will repeat last week's debacle and give a second chance to the SNP and probable independence? Now they have been alerted Scotland should be in line for a number of temporary pacifiers and crumbs of comfort , courtesy of Westminster. I hope I'm wrong.
Reading that perhaps Gordon Brown will survive due to sympathy for him as the underdog plagued by the even more despised Cherie Blair, Lord Levy and John Prescott via their publications. With Darling handing out cash in lieu of taxing the poor and Labour's body-shock over the past week to jolt them into what sense they may have - if they continue to pinch the better Conservatives ideas and policies, (no wonder Mr Cameron is reluctant to voice Tory policy)perhaps they could win a GE again in 2010. A week is a long time - two years is a century where anything could, and usually does, happen.
I really hope the potential of last week to seize the referendum initiative and stick it to Labour's arrogant ignorance will not be regretted. With SLab now back-tracking on their previous support for Wendy's 'Bring it on' - the SNP may be back to square one against a cornered Labour fighting dirty for its life and a Tory party who may have peaked too soon - and Boris is still on Honeymoon.
Do we really think that the unionists will repeat last week's debacle and give a second chance to the SNP and probable independence? Now they have been alerted Scotland should be in line for a number of temporary pacifiers and crumbs of comfort , courtesy of Westminster. I hope I'm wrong.
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 1:33am Wed 14 May 08
Chris & Cynicus.
I tend to agree that the SNP should have picked up the gauntlet. However, the submission of NuLab (Scotland) to Westminster will be a heavy weight for it to carry.
The Tories are still seen as anathma in Scotland.
The LibDems are proving themselves to be self-seekers (Sir Ming/GB).
NuLab is dictated to by Westminster.
By concentrating on, and reiterating, the lies, distortions, Westminster orientation and self-seeking of the Unionist Alliance Independence is secure, in the very near future.
Can NuLab survive voting against the Scottish Government's Referendum Bill? I think not!!!
Chris & Cynicus.
I tend to agree that the SNP should have picked up the gauntlet. However, the submission of NuLab (Scotland) to Westminster will be a heavy weight for it to carry.
The Tories are still seen as anathma in Scotland.
The LibDems are proving themselves to be self-seekers (Sir Ming/GB).
NuLab is dictated to by Westminster.
By concentrating on, and reiterating, the lies, distortions, Westminster orientation and self-seeking of the Unionist Alliance Independence is secure, in the very near future.
Can NuLab survive voting against the Scottish Government's Referendum Bill? I think not!!!
Posted by: Westhighlander, West Highlands on 4:08am Wed 14 May 08
I think Alex Salmond was absolutely correct in not picking up the gauntlet. He knows full well that Scotland is not quite yet ready for independence, and much of the reason for that is that most people don't actually know exactly what such independence is likely to mean for them and their families. Frankly, if it would mean being governed by Wendy and her pals, most of us, quite rightly, would give a resounding NO THANKS.
And I don't believe the tories are too far away from swinging, particularly if it means further marginalising labour - the Scots tories have long had far more independence in party terms from their English colleagues than ever Labour had, and if the wind was blowing in that direction David Cameron will set all sail to take advantage of it.
Above all, what so much of this infantile squabbling illustrates is that that many of the players, including GB and The Alexander sisters, despite being puffed up as having 'massive intellects' by people like Ian McWhirter for so long, aren't particularly clever after all. I always thought Henry McLeish was thick: and Jack McConnell not much better. There's an ever growing list to join those two of people prominent in Scottish politics, particularly in the Labour & Lib Dem parties. So much for our votes. Bring back first past the post, then at least we can get rid of the twerps if they do nothing but play games with our country.
I think Alex Salmond was absolutely correct in not picking up the gauntlet. He knows full well that Scotland is not quite yet ready for independence, and much of the reason for that is that most people don't actually know exactly what such independence is likely to mean for them and their families. Frankly, if it would mean being governed by Wendy and her pals, most of us, quite rightly, would give a resounding NO THANKS.
And I don't believe the tories are too far away from swinging, particularly if it means further marginalising labour - the Scots tories have long had far more independence in party terms from their English colleagues than ever Labour had, and if the wind was blowing in that direction David Cameron will set all sail to take advantage of it.
Above all, what so much of this infantile squabbling illustrates is that that many of the players, including GB and The Alexander sisters, despite being puffed up as having 'massive intellects' by people like Ian McWhirter for so long, aren't particularly clever after all. I always thought Henry McLeish was thick: and Jack McConnell not much better. There's an ever growing list to join those two of people prominent in Scottish politics, particularly in the Labour & Lib Dem parties. So much for our votes. Bring back first past the post, then at least we can get rid of the twerps if they do nothing but play games with our country.
Posted by: Brizerwatt, Singapore on 7:28am Wed 14 May 08
[quote] great chance Chris -as you and others argued here below. But just how great a chance we did not realise at the time. The subsequent 4/5 day' events in the disintegration of Labour both here south of the border have magnified that missed opportunity to even larger proportions than even we discerned last week.[/quote]
CYNICUS
From what you say above the "subsequent events" are making a YES vote even more likely in any referendum. Your statement that this is a lost opportunity presumes that these "subsequent events" have now suddenly stopped and Labour will somehow turn all this chaos around and become a well oiled political machine "again"(?). Where does the evidence for this miraculous resurgence come from ? Why is it not wise to sit back and watch continued "subsequent events" to magnify Labours failings further. I suggest the only missed opportunity here would be to act too soon and miss Slabours continued slide down the road to electoral oblivion in Scotland.
great chance Chris -as you and others argued here below. But just how great a chance we did not realise at the time. The subsequent 4/5 day' events in the disintegration of Labour both here south of the border have magnified that missed opportunity to even larger proportions than even we discerned last week.
CYNICUS
From what you say above the "subsequent events" are making a YES vote even more likely in any referendum. Your statement that this is a lost opportunity presumes that these "subsequent events" have now suddenly stopped and Labour will somehow turn all this chaos around and become a well oiled political machine "again"(?). Where does the evidence for this miraculous resurgence come from ? Why is it not wise to sit back and watch continued "subsequent events" to magnify Labours failings further. I suggest the only missed opportunity here would be to act too soon and miss Slabours continued slide down the road to electoral oblivion in Scotland.
Posted by: chris walker, west kilbride on 8:43am Wed 14 May 08
Although the least of it, and since I am being asked via emails, the "Tartan Shawl" analogy that I "invented" derives from the song "Bonnie Wee Jeannie McCall", where a putative suitor, in the Co-operative Hall no less, offered Ms McCall his mother's engagement ring and a bonnie wee tartan shawl. My grandchildren might say that Jeannie was "cool".
Anyways, by 2010, these shawls will be will be available on general issue across Scotland and paid for by the Unionist parties. "Here's your shawl, hen, it's two thousand and ten" will be a refrain sung by the cats' chorus of Bella Goldie (Conservative & Unionist), Nicol Stephen (Liberal Democrat & Unionist) and.........Disney Kerr (New Labour & you got it).
Although the least of it, and since I am being asked via emails, the "Tartan Shawl" analogy that I "invented" derives from the song "Bonnie Wee Jeannie McCall", where a putative suitor, in the Co-operative Hall no less, offered Ms McCall his mother's engagement ring and a bonnie wee tartan shawl. My grandchildren might say that Jeannie was "cool".
Anyways, by 2010, these shawls will be will be available on general issue across Scotland and paid for by the Unionist parties. "Here's your shawl, hen, it's two thousand and ten" will be a refrain sung by the cats' chorus of Bella Goldie (Conservative & Unionist), Nicol Stephen (Liberal Democrat & Unionist) and.........Disney Kerr (New Labour & you got it).
Posted by: Victor Smith on 8:54am Wed 14 May 08
Still cannot help thinking that the over-riding concern in all the Political minds is still - 'What's in it for me and mine?' - no matter what fancy words they dress it up with to try and show some concern as to why they are where they are - and what they are there, for in the first place!
I think the majority of the electorate will need a lot of convincing to think otherwise!!
As we are, seemingly by lack of choice, now all members of the greatest corrupt organisation known as the life saving EU, with the corruption aspect being its main note of ‘excellence’, and as it appears that much of their attitudes and activities in this field have already filtered down to the Westminster 'set up' (and aren't they doing well as in the cases of Hain, Conway, Martin - and no doubt many others!) - how can they fail? More importantly is - ‘How long before the disease contaminates ‘Holyrood?’ once again, and even more extensively?
To be named and shamed, in some kind of endeavour to rid the system of such opportunities, seems to be a ‘No! No!’ when, as we see, the 'authorities declare 'it's within the rules' - regardless of how blatant it appears, and apparently that's that!
It appears that not only is financial greed still the main driving force for many, if not all of the Politicians, but with, as it seems, many of the bodies of authority - mostly controlled from within their own ranks and therefore kept well under control, simply awaiting receipt of the answers the Politicians require - for as and when needed - even if only to 'Save Faces' - regardless. With what seems an enormous amount of collusion all round - in the right places, and everybody probably scratching each others backs to keep everything 'hunky - dorey ' (and secret) in the' Money factory' where it all seems well-oiled and running extremely smoothly - for all involved!
Such an infectious / contagious disease needs prompt positive action to eradicate it, before the Country and its finances are gone altogether!
Still cannot help thinking that the over-riding concern in all the Political minds is still - 'What's in it for me and mine?' - no matter what fancy words they dress it up with to try and show some concern as to why they are where they are - and what they are there, for in the first place!
I think the majority of the electorate will need a lot of convincing to think otherwise!!
As we are, seemingly by lack of choice, now all members of the greatest corrupt organisation known as the life saving EU, with the corruption aspect being its main note of ‘excellence’, and as it appears that much of their attitudes and activities in this field have already filtered down to the Westminster 'set up' (and aren't they doing well as in the cases of Hain, Conway, Martin - and no doubt many others!) - how can they fail? More importantly is - ‘How long before the disease contaminates ‘Holyrood?’ once again, and even more extensively?
To be named and shamed, in some kind of endeavour to rid the system of such opportunities, seems to be a ‘No! No!’ when, as we see, the 'authorities declare 'it's within the rules' - regardless of how blatant it appears, and apparently that's that!
It appears that not only is financial greed still the main driving force for many, if not all of the Politicians, but with, as it seems, many of the bodies of authority - mostly controlled from within their own ranks and therefore kept well under control, simply awaiting receipt of the answers the Politicians require - for as and when needed - even if only to 'Save Faces' - regardless. With what seems an enormous amount of collusion all round - in the right places, and everybody probably scratching each others backs to keep everything 'hunky - dorey ' (and secret) in the' Money factory' where it all seems well-oiled and running extremely smoothly - for all involved!
Such an infectious / contagious disease needs prompt positive action to eradicate it, before the Country and its finances are gone altogether!
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh on 10:13am Wed 14 May 08
Scotland is entirely ready for independence and I believe we will vote for it as soon as we get the chance, however to make absolutely sure that the unionists inevitable scaremongering has little effect it is important to properly engage with Scotland's civic institutiions and answer any questions they may have.
So far business has been successfully courted by SNP. Their move into the STUC obviously panicked Alexander as they seemed to prefer the SNP's position on a referendum than hers! Also Tom Hunter's call for an immediate referendum obviously had an effect on the wee windy one.
The SNP are also having discussions with the Scottish churches through the national conversation which is progressing extremely well, albeit in a phased fashion.
Labour cannot be trusted to hold a position for [bold]seven days[/bold] which doesn't directly accede to their London leadership, as such they are not fit allies and as their position has now turned full circle the SNP can look forward to reaping the electoral dividends when Labour reject the referendum vote in 2010 that they actually called for themselves in 2008!
Scotland is entirely ready for independence and I believe we will vote for it as soon as we get the chance, however to make absolutely sure that the unionists inevitable scaremongering has little effect it is important to properly engage with Scotland's civic institutiions and answer any questions they may have.
So far business has been successfully courted by SNP. Their move into the STUC obviously panicked Alexander as they seemed to prefer the SNP's position on a referendum than hers! Also Tom Hunter's call for an immediate referendum obviously had an effect on the wee windy one.
The SNP are also having discussions with the Scottish churches through the national conversation which is progressing extremely well, albeit in a phased fashion.
Labour cannot be trusted to hold a position for
seven days which doesn't directly accede to their London leadership, as such they are not fit allies and as their position has now turned full circle the SNP can look forward to reaping the electoral dividends when Labour reject the referendum vote in 2010 that they actually called for themselves in 2008!
Posted by: Clarinda, Tayside on 10:39am Wed 14 May 08
Chris - I shudder at the potential of so many wrapped in their "tartan shawls" sucking on their sugared Westminster pacifiers. The subjugation of Scotland - barefoot, pregnant and tied to the kitchen sink of unionist indifference, ought to be in our past and not our future. The SNP as a new political force in power for the first time lost a brilliant opportunity to stake or re-state their position last week with authority. I can however, appreciate a reluctance not to get entangled in the Labour debacle and keep clear. But it's Wednesday and still very little to raise our spirit and soul from the SNP. The English press are still full of debate and ridicule about the disaster that is the Scottish and UK Labour - I hope Mr Salmond has good reason for waiting to see the whites of his opponents eyes before the SNP become frozen to the spot. - but by then, he might have been given a "tartan shawl" too?
Chris - I shudder at the potential of so many wrapped in their "tartan shawls" sucking on their sugared Westminster pacifiers. The subjugation of Scotland - barefoot, pregnant and tied to the kitchen sink of unionist indifference, ought to be in our past and not our future. The SNP as a new political force in power for the first time lost a brilliant opportunity to stake or re-state their position last week with authority. I can however, appreciate a reluctance not to get entangled in the Labour debacle and keep clear. But it's Wednesday and still very little to raise our spirit and soul from the SNP. The English press are still full of debate and ridicule about the disaster that is the Scottish and UK Labour - I hope Mr Salmond has good reason for waiting to see the whites of his opponents eyes before the SNP become frozen to the spot. - but by then, he might have been given a "tartan shawl" too?
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 10:41am Wed 14 May 08
[quote]I think Alex Salmond was absolutely correct in not picking up the gauntlet. He knows full well that Scotland is not quite yet ready for independence,[/quote]-Westhighlander, West Highlands on 4:08am today
That is an astonishing thing to say about the Leader of the SNP. "Not quite yet ready for independence?" He has never believed that and never will.
I think Alex Salmond was absolutely correct in not picking up the gauntlet. He knows full well that Scotland is not quite yet ready for independence,
-Westhighlander, West Highlands on 4:08am today
That is an astonishing thing to say about the Leader of the SNP. "Not quite yet ready for independence?" He has never believed that and never will.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 10:49am Wed 14 May 08
[quote]Your statement that this is a lost opportunity presumes that these "subsequent events" have now suddenly stopped[/quote]-Brizerwatt, Singapore on 7:28am today
And you presume that "events, dear boy" will be a one way street for the next 28 months or so. You really thing Eck's honeymonn is going to last that long? Do you truly beleve that there are no Nat disasters up ahead in the next 2+ years.
Here's a song that reflects your outlook: "Things can only get better." It was popuular at the UK general election 3 years back. Remind me who was singing it.
Your statement that this is a lost opportunity presumes that these "subsequent events" have now suddenly stopped
-Brizerwatt, Singapore on 7:28am today
And you presume that "events, dear boy" will be a one way street for the next 28 months or so. You really thing Eck's honeymonn is going to last that long? Do you truly beleve that there are no Nat disasters up ahead in the next 2+ years.
Here's a song that reflects your outlook: "Things can only get better." It was popuular at the UK general election 3 years back. Remind me who was singing it.
Posted by: Harry, Bishopbriggs on 11:03am Wed 14 May 08
I wish I could be so confident as some of the posters that Nulab's position can only get worse. I can only see it improve.
My opinion of what should have happened last week is simillar to that of Chris, Clarinda, Cynacus and Observer, in that the SNP and more importantly the wider Independence movement have failed to gain anything from Wendy's madness.
The argument that Labours weakness is all to the SNP's gain does not add up. The SNP need to be seen as a strong party worthy of the votes of the people whose minds are still controlled by the London-Centric Unionist parties.
The least Alex Salmond should have done was addressed the electorate, by whatever means, to get his message home while their minds were in turmoil from Wendyitus.
Maybe the SNP are getting too cosy as a party of devolved government, maybe they are already wearing their "Tartan Shawls".
I wish I could be so confident as some of the posters that Nulab's position can only get worse. I can only see it improve.
My opinion of what should have happened last week is simillar to that of Chris, Clarinda, Cynacus and Observer, in that the SNP and more importantly the wider Independence movement have failed to gain anything from Wendy's madness.
The argument that Labours weakness is all to the SNP's gain does not add up. The SNP need to be seen as a strong party worthy of the votes of the people whose minds are still controlled by the London-Centric Unionist parties.
The least Alex Salmond should have done was addressed the electorate, by whatever means, to get his message home while their minds were in turmoil from Wendyitus.
Maybe the SNP are getting too cosy as a party of devolved government, maybe they are already wearing their "Tartan Shawls".
Posted by: chris walker, west kilbride on 11:22am Wed 14 May 08
Clarinda
I have followed your thinking on the temporal aspect of the referendum debate. I believe that you represent a bellwether of perceptive and shifting public opinion. I say this in a complimentary sense. (And your use of metaphor is pure dead brilliant.) Alex Salmond is a very clever man - he asked me to write briefing notes for him after all on Iraq.
I cannot accept the proposition that Independence is a great idea but not yet. I hear the "act in haste and repent at leisure" arguments. They are plain wrong. After 300 years I don't think pressing on now is acting "in haste", whatever else it is. So I do (press on). The only tartan Alex should be wrapping himself in is that of the Black Watch, my grandfather's regiment. And that's a play, not a shawl!
Clarinda
I have followed your thinking on the temporal aspect of the referendum debate. I believe that you represent a bellwether of perceptive and shifting public opinion. I say this in a complimentary sense. (And your use of metaphor is pure dead brilliant.) Alex Salmond is a very clever man - he asked me to write briefing notes for him after all on Iraq.
I cannot accept the proposition that Independence is a great idea but not yet. I hear the "act in haste and repent at leisure" arguments. They are plain wrong. After 300 years I don't think pressing on now is acting "in haste", whatever else it is. So I do (press on). The only tartan Alex should be wrapping himself in is that of the Black Watch, my grandfather's regiment. And that's a play, not a shawl!
Posted by: GML, right here on 11:25am Wed 14 May 08
Cynicus, I am sure you would apply a good dose of cynicism to anyone claiming to know the future (as you should).
However, recent governments in both Westminster and Edinburgh have lasted two to three terms, before running out of ideas and/or becoming corrupted by power. The SNP has to be odds-on for 2011; I am sure some ambitious Labour MSPs are thinking about keeping their heads down just now and aiming at the leadership for 2015...and if Scotland was independent by then, a record of supporting the independence referendum would come in very handy for them. How's my cynicism doing?
Major managed to stagger back in to everyone's surprise, maybe Brown might do the same (though it seems unlikely - Argentina would have to invade the Falklands, I reckon ). But Labour is on the way out in Westminster, for sure.
Cynicus, I am sure you would apply a good dose of cynicism to anyone claiming to know the future (as you should).
However, recent governments in both Westminster and Edinburgh have lasted two to three terms, before running out of ideas and/or becoming corrupted by power. The SNP has to be odds-on for 2011; I am sure some ambitious Labour MSPs are thinking about keeping their heads down just now and aiming at the leadership for 2015...and if Scotland was independent by then, a record of supporting the independence referendum would come in very handy for them. How's my cynicism doing?
Major managed to stagger back in to everyone's surprise, maybe Brown might do the same (though it seems unlikely - Argentina would have to invade the Falklands, I reckon ). But Labour is on the way out in Westminster, for sure.
Posted by: Westhighlander, West Highlands on 12:27pm Wed 14 May 08
Cynicus, I don't think it's an astonishing thing to say by any means. Right now, I do not believe that the Scots as a nation would vote for independence, and I think AS and many in the SNP hold a largely similar view.
Everything that the labour party is doing right now, whether here or in Westminster, and without even getting into personalities, is simply acting further to discredit them as a currently viable political force. That is actually a bad situation for us all to be in, since it can bring people to perceive a mediocre opposition, as we have in Westminster now, as rather good. All the SNP require to do is wait, that is what they are doing, and with considerable skill.
Cynicus, I don't think it's an astonishing thing to say by any means. Right now, I do not believe that the Scots as a nation would vote for independence, and I think AS and many in the SNP hold a largely similar view.
Everything that the labour party is doing right now, whether here or in Westminster, and without even getting into personalities, is simply acting further to discredit them as a currently viable political force. That is actually a bad situation for us all to be in, since it can bring people to perceive a mediocre opposition, as we have in Westminster now, as rather good. All the SNP require to do is wait, that is what they are doing, and with considerable skill.
Posted by: chris walker, west kilbride on 1:01pm Wed 14 May 08
I have a friend who is very intelligent. Unlike yours truly he is a man of few words. He believes that Gordon Brown's current agony is best symbolised by 'Iraq'. Apropos withdrawal from that benighted land, Big Clunkin cannae say 'aye' and he cannae say 'naw'. If he fell off the fence he would probably gallop off in both directions simutaneously. Alex Salmond speaks "sotto voce" now on Iraq. If he were running Scotland or even proactively, in the context of a referendum, declaiming on the topic, he would be stridently calling for all Scottish soldiers to be withdrawn immediately, repeat immediately. As it is, Iraqis die in great numbers still as does the occasional Scot. But then who ever gave a damnnn about dead Iraqis?
As my friend says it's but a symbol.
I have a friend who is very intelligent. Unlike yours truly he is a man of few words. He believes that Gordon Brown's current agony is best symbolised by 'Iraq'. Apropos withdrawal from that benighted land, Big Clunkin cannae say 'aye' and he cannae say 'naw'. If he fell off the fence he would probably gallop off in both directions simutaneously. Alex Salmond speaks "sotto voce" now on Iraq. If he were running Scotland or even proactively, in the context of a referendum, declaiming on the topic, he would be stridently calling for all Scottish soldiers to be withdrawn immediately, repeat immediately. As it is, Iraqis die in great numbers still as does the occasional Scot. But then who ever gave a damnnn about dead Iraqis?
As my friend says it's but a symbol.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 1:07pm Wed 14 May 08
Westhighlander it does not require much skill to wait.
I am not too sure what people think we are waiting for. For the SNP to prove they can govern ? They have.
There are two dangers here, one is the tartan shawl effect. The other is that the SNP's luck will turn. Now it would be very soon into their term of Office if it did, but all governments are subject to events, or luck.
Too many posters seem to be basing their view of SNP stratregy upon the destiny of the Labour Party. We are not clairvoyants, and should not in any case be trusting to luck in the first place. The SNP's raison d'etre is independence and they should not be deflected from that.
Westhighlander it does not require much skill to wait.
I am not too sure what people think we are waiting for. For the SNP to prove they can govern ? They have.
There are two dangers here, one is the tartan shawl effect. The other is that the SNP's luck will turn. Now it would be very soon into their term of Office if it did, but all governments are subject to events, or luck.
Too many posters seem to be basing their view of SNP stratregy upon the destiny of the Labour Party. We are not clairvoyants, and should not in any case be trusting to luck in the first place. The SNP's raison d'etre is independence and they should not be deflected from that.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 3:05pm Wed 14 May 08
Since the Labour party now appear to hold the view that they won't back a refendum bill , this discussion is only academic.
At least , I'm "crystal clear "on that ,for the moment !
Who knows what tomorrow may bring !
More fun and laughter at FMQs for sure !
Since the Labour party now appear to hold the view that they won't back a refendum bill , this discussion is only academic.
At least , I'm "crystal clear "on that ,for the moment !
Who knows what tomorrow may bring !
More fun and laughter at FMQs for sure !
Posted by: chris walker, west kilbride on 6:42pm Wed 14 May 08
Methinks, this thread needs an injection of some sort. I think the striking TV images from Manchester at this time of writing provide exactly that. As a Nationalist and somebody who has supported the Rangers all his life - while acknowledging that the club's credo has encompassed "religious" baggage that has caused shame on occasion - I hope the SNP hierarchy takes note. It is essential that the emotions captured here - forget the cerebral for now - can find a place in the nationalist pantheon. For they too are "Scottish" feeligs, for good or bad. Rangers are a Scottish team albeit that Union Jacks will outnumber Saltires. That's to do with a faux-political heritage that is being jettisoned slowly but surely. Celtic's osmosis may also be working in the same direction. I hope so, although the starting point is more problematic..
If the SNP cannot embrace this energy then "we're all doomed" as Cpl Jones might say, doomed to the Union for ever. But they can and we aint.
And if we cannot redirect this energy, or a large part of it, into political support for Independence then we will not win the freedom for our country that we so much want. This, as they say, is a defining moment. As to the game itself, I will be watching more in hope than in confidence. Besides, even if we get beaten the odyssey to Manchester has been unforgettable. My son-in-law, a Celtic fan, has just been in touch to say he will be hoping the Gers win. I don't believe him for a moment but he means well, and his heart is in the right place. I am told that Glasgow city centre is a sea of blue. I know Coatbridge will not be similarly coloured but if I could support Celtic in Seville, then, while they may not be dancing in Carfin tonight, given a Rangers win, they might feeel able to say, "Good on you the Gers".
I apologise for going "off-topic"...... but then I'm not sure I have. And I'll never wear a Tartan Shawl, so there!
Methinks, this thread needs an injection of some sort. I think the striking TV images from Manchester at this time of writing provide exactly that. As a Nationalist and somebody who has supported the Rangers all his life - while acknowledging that the club's credo has encompassed "religious" baggage that has caused shame on occasion - I hope the SNP hierarchy takes note. It is essential that the emotions captured here - forget the cerebral for now - can find a place in the nationalist pantheon. For they too are "Scottish" feeligs, for good or bad. Rangers are a Scottish team albeit that Union Jacks will outnumber Saltires. That's to do with a faux-political heritage that is being jettisoned slowly but surely. Celtic's osmosis may also be working in the same direction. I hope so, although the starting point is more problematic..
If the SNP cannot embrace this energy then "we're all doomed" as Cpl Jones might say, doomed to the Union for ever. But they can and we aint.
And if we cannot redirect this energy, or a large part of it, into political support for Independence then we will not win the freedom for our country that we so much want. This, as they say, is a defining moment. As to the game itself, I will be watching more in hope than in confidence. Besides, even if we get beaten the odyssey to Manchester has been unforgettable. My son-in-law, a Celtic fan, has just been in touch to say he will be hoping the Gers win. I don't believe him for a moment but he means well, and his heart is in the right place. I am told that Glasgow city centre is a sea of blue. I know Coatbridge will not be similarly coloured but if I could support Celtic in Seville, then, while they may not be dancing in Carfin tonight, given a Rangers win, they might feeel able to say, "Good on you the Gers".
I apologise for going "off-topic"...... but then I'm not sure I have. And I'll never wear a Tartan Shawl, so there!
Posted by: elrond511, glasgow on 6:53pm Wed 14 May 08
Nice try but your statement "Now that the savage and universal criticism of Wendy Alexander is past is peak " is not true. We the people have only started. We have been treated like mugs for years by the Labour establishment in Scotland and have watched as non entities who have never had a job in the real world have been placed in powerful positions whilst we were fed crap by a complient media that so and so is an intellectual powerhouse etc etc ad naseum. Well the games up Wendy is not an intellectual genius , she is not even clever. She is a spoiled brat who has got where she is because of Daddys ties to Labours "Beautiful people." Her whole style of "stamp our feet till you get what you want" management reminds me of the Verucca Salt character in Charlie and the chocolate factory, or was it that dreadful ginger haired girl in the Just William books ?
She is a little tyrant as evidenced by her steamrolling of the section 28 issue which was in no ones manifesto. Yep Wendy had some power and she was going to abuse it to push through her pet projects which she had brought in from the playground.
The woman is hopeless . Her time is up but wait...... Gordon may need someone to take some bullets for him later on in the year. It is a well knowm Political tatic not to immediatley sack someone even where it is deserved as it is beneficial to keep them them in order to use them as a scapegoat when it is known that a truck load of s*** is about to be dumped further down the road.
Ah Wendy for all your naked ambition you are only a patsy. You are about to get well and truly SAMMIED !
Nice try but your statement "Now that the savage and universal criticism of Wendy Alexander is past is peak " is not true. We the people have only started. We have been treated like mugs for years by the Labour establishment in Scotland and have watched as non entities who have never had a job in the real world have been placed in powerful positions whilst we were fed crap by a complient media that so and so is an intellectual powerhouse etc etc ad naseum. Well the games up Wendy is not an intellectual genius , she is not even clever. She is a spoiled brat who has got where she is because of Daddys ties to Labours "Beautiful people." Her whole style of "stamp our feet till you get what you want" management reminds me of the Verucca Salt character in Charlie and the chocolate factory, or was it that dreadful ginger haired girl in the Just William books ?
She is a little tyrant as evidenced by her steamrolling of the section 28 issue which was in no ones manifesto. Yep Wendy had some power and she was going to abuse it to push through her pet projects which she had brought in from the playground.
The woman is hopeless . Her time is up but wait...... Gordon may need someone to take some bullets for him later on in the year. It is a well knowm Political tatic not to immediatley sack someone even where it is deserved as it is beneficial to keep them them in order to use them as a scapegoat when it is known that a truck load of s*** is about to be dumped further down the road.
Ah Wendy for all your naked ambition you are only a patsy. You are about to get well and truly SAMMIED !
Posted by: elrond511, glasgow on 7:02pm Wed 14 May 08
Oh lest I forget the other half of the hapless "Alexander brothers" wee Douglas. This little sychophant was the boy responsible for the Scottish election fiasco. Consider this. The election was a close run thing with the SNP only just beating Labour in several seats. So close in some instances that it really was touch and go. Why then you may ask , when it became known that up to 100,000 votes were spoiled was there not a number of appeals raised by understandably disgruntled Labour candidates who in total had lost their seats by A LOT less than this number ?
The answer my friends is that the election **** UP was of such monumental proportions that Labour calculated it would be better to accept defeat than have their utter utter utter incompetence gone over in the courts. Part of this no doubt contained an arrogance that they would get back into power at the next opportunity with the "intellectual powerhouse" that is Wendy at the helm.
WRONG!
You were the weakest link. Goodbye!
Oh lest I forget the other half of the hapless "Alexander brothers" wee Douglas. This little sychophant was the boy responsible for the Scottish election fiasco. Consider this. The election was a close run thing with the SNP only just beating Labour in several seats. So close in some instances that it really was touch and go. Why then you may ask , when it became known that up to 100,000 votes were spoiled was there not a number of appeals raised by understandably disgruntled Labour candidates who in total had lost their seats by A LOT less than this number ?
The answer my friends is that the election **** UP was of such monumental proportions that Labour calculated it would be better to accept defeat than have their utter utter utter incompetence gone over in the courts. Part of this no doubt contained an arrogance that they would get back into power at the next opportunity with the "intellectual powerhouse" that is Wendy at the helm.
WRONG!
You were the weakest link. Goodbye!
Posted by: JJF, Glasgow on 8:27pm Wed 14 May 08
Elrond511: Excellent posts. "Intellectual powerhouses", indeed. Can we have a proper cleansing of the Augean stables to which Scottish public life has descended, soon?
Elrond511: Excellent posts. "Intellectual powerhouses", indeed. Can we have a proper cleansing of the Augean stables to which Scottish public life has descended, soon?
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 10:16pm Wed 14 May 08
Elrond511: I concur, good posts, sir.
The girl from Just William shared with Wendy the unfortunate speech defect - remember this? 'I'll thcweam and thcweam until I am thick!'
The part of Violet Elizabeth Bott could have been written with Miss Alexander in mind.
Elrond511: I concur, good posts, sir.
The girl from Just William shared with Wendy the unfortunate speech defect - remember this? 'I'll thcweam and thcweam until I am thick!'
The part of Violet Elizabeth Bott could have been written with Miss Alexander in mind.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 11:21pm Wed 14 May 08
[quote]For they too are "Scottish" feeligs, for good or bad. Rangers are a Scottish team albeit that Union Jacks will outnumber Saltires.[/quote]-west kilbride on 6:42pm today
Red hands outnumber saltires, Chris. Did you see The Herald centre page cartoon? Surveying cavalcades of Union Flag -festooned fans heading south, a reflective Eck thinks, "Maybe this would have been a good time to hold a snap referendum after all."
Sorry the Teds went down. I hope it is not a harbinger of the regerendum in 2010 but fear it might be.
For they too are "Scottish" feeligs, for good or bad. Rangers are a Scottish team albeit that Union Jacks will outnumber Saltires.
-west kilbride on 6:42pm today
Red hands outnumber saltires, Chris. Did you see The Herald centre page cartoon? Surveying cavalcades of Union Flag -festooned fans heading south, a reflective Eck thinks, "Maybe this would have been a good time to hold a snap referendum after all."
Sorry the Teds went down. I hope it is not a harbinger of the regerendum in 2010 but fear it might be.
Posted by: Brizerwatt, Singapore on 5:22am Thu 15 May 08
[quote]And you presume that "events, dear boy" will be a one way street for the next 28 months or so. You really thing Eck's honeymonn is going to last that long? Do you truly beleve that there are no Nat disasters up ahead in the next 2+ years.
Here's a song that reflects your outlook: "Things can only get better." It was popuular at the UK general election 3 years back. Remind me who was singing it.[/quote] CYNISUS
Sorry "old chap" I presume nothing about the SNP's term in government except that they will be doing their utmost for the people of Scotland, to the best of their abilities, with no secondary agenda from another place. This is good enough for me in the short term. Scottish people have learned the hard way that life is no Honeymoon, mainly due to the party the majority of them gave their heart to betraying their aspirations. They have now found a more faithful partner in government , one that wont run off with some Westminster wide boy at the first flash of a fat wallet and a big motor.
And you presume that "events, dear boy" will be a one way street for the next 28 months or so. You really thing Eck's honeymonn is going to last that long? Do you truly beleve that there are no Nat disasters up ahead in the next 2+ years.
Here's a song that reflects your outlook: "Things can only get better." It was popuular at the UK general election 3 years back. Remind me who was singing it.
CYNISUS
Sorry "old chap" I presume nothing about the SNP's term in government except that they will be doing their utmost for the people of Scotland, to the best of their abilities, with no secondary agenda from another place. This is good enough for me in the short term. Scottish people have learned the hard way that life is no Honeymoon, mainly due to the party the majority of them gave their heart to betraying their aspirations. They have now found a more faithful partner in government , one that wont run off with some Westminster wide boy at the first flash of a fat wallet and a big motor.
Posted by: chris walker, west kilbride on 9:55am Thu 15 May 08
Cynicus
Honesty compels me to acknowledge that there were more, a lot more, union jacks than saltires. That particular bubble has still to burst - the point is that it is a bubble. However, as you know, it's the Tartan Shawls that worry me most of all. I note that Professor John Curtice, in his analysis in yesterday's Herald, agrees with me. The better the SNP government - at the simulacrum called Holyrood - does in discharging power doing popular and populist things, the more comforting the status quo will appear to be. "Don't worry, hen, it's two thousand and ten" will be a sing-song injunction from every unionist party in the land together with the issue of the Tartan Shawl to every denizen.
All opportunities to respond to golden chances such as Ms Alexander's gaffe last week must be taken. The silent Socratean amusement won't do. And the infantile name-calling of wee Wendy will be counterproductive as well if it doesn't stop soon.
However, Cynicus, our joint efforts to draw attention to the reality (and importance) of McMillan's "Events, dear boy, events" has struck a chord and you can't say fairer than that. My Tartan Shawl imagery may also have become part of the lexicon and currency. I hope it may also become part of yours, in our efforts to dismantle the British state. Let's get on with it!
Cynicus
Honesty compels me to acknowledge that there were more, a lot more, union jacks than saltires. That particular bubble has still to burst - the point is that it is a bubble. However, as you know, it's the Tartan Shawls that worry me most of all. I note that Professor John Curtice, in his analysis in yesterday's Herald, agrees with me. The better the SNP government - at the simulacrum called Holyrood - does in discharging power doing popular and populist things, the more comforting the status quo will appear to be. "Don't worry, hen, it's two thousand and ten" will be a sing-song injunction from every unionist party in the land together with the issue of the Tartan Shawl to every denizen.
All opportunities to respond to golden chances such as Ms Alexander's gaffe last week must be taken. The silent Socratean amusement won't do. And the infantile name-calling of wee Wendy will be counterproductive as well if it doesn't stop soon.
However, Cynicus, our joint efforts to draw attention to the reality (and importance) of McMillan's "Events, dear boy, events" has struck a chord and you can't say fairer than that. My Tartan Shawl imagery may also have become part of the lexicon and currency. I hope it may also become part of yours, in our efforts to dismantle the British state. Let's get on with it!
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