
Church at odds with progress of human race
Throughout history new discoveries and detections,
particularly in the areas of medicine and science, have severely challenged established thought, often pushing the boundaries of our perceptions. Many times the human race has had to re-evaluate what seemed like fixed ideas, sometimes kicking and screaming when confronted by rational truths that disputed the old, comfortable ways.
At this time, we are staring ahead
at a critical point of human development. Stem cell therapies, accelerated by the facts gained from the lengthy human genome project of the 1980s and 1990s, mean that we have entered a period of massive medical, scientific and moral re-evaluation.
It is within our reach to eliminate motor neurone disease, Alzheimer's, cystic fibrosis and untold other hellish illnesses. It should be a cause for celebration. Instead we have religious figures of the fundamentalist born-again Christian movement and
notably Cardinal Keith O'Brien (who elected him?), deliberately using language to conjure up images of Frankenstein's monster. What a miserable state of affairs it is when the Roman Catholic Church, having already impeded so much of this vital research, resorts to threatening excommunication of Catholic politicians who vote for stem cell therapies to be licensed and developed.
As one who suffers from motor neurone disease, I have followed the human genome project and the ground-breaking discovery of scientists being able to isolate the nucleus of the cell. In discussion with others, I notice the inability of most to differentiate between a cell, a neurone, a nucleus, an embryo, a clone and a foetus. And it is in the misuse of these terms that Cardinal O'Brien and his church manipulate language in order to exploit a lack of knowledge among the general population. On the official Roman Catholic Church's website, it is claimed that stem cell research has not yielded any worthwhile results. In fact, scientists are overwhelmingly positive and confident that these devastating illnesses can be consigned to history.
It would be a simple argument to tell Catholics or other religious people that they are indeed at liberty to refuse these treatments, much as Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions. But that would suggest the Catholic Church has little or no influence, which is not the case. Hundreds of millions of people throughout the world hang on every word of bishops, cardinals and, of course, the Pope. This matter is so serious that we must now ask if we are to base political decisions involving health and medicine on the absurd idea that a just-fertilised cell, which has no brain, no organs or bones, no personality and no central nervous system, equals a human being.
Kenny McGuigan, Coatbridge.
What on earth is Gordon Brown thinking of? Alone among party leaders, he imposes a three-line whip on a "conscience" issue. Not only that, it is to drive through a measure (human/animal embryo chimeras) not featured in New Labour's 2005 election manifesto.
We have become accustomed to the two faces of Gordon Brown, the authoritarian control-freak and Macavity, who is never there when things go wrong. The metamorphosis of one into the other represents a manifestation of the "the Caledonian antisyzygy" to match anything in James Hogg or Robert Louis Stevenson: Dr Stalin and Mr Bean - or Confessions of a Justified Whipper?
Since there is a crisis with bad publicity, we can expect the emergence of Macavity: Gordon will not be seen or heard. He will delegate a climb-down on this issue to the chief whip or other subordinate. On the other hand, there is a powerful challenge to his personal decision on a three-line whip. So, Gordon Stalin will ruthlessly assert his authority with an iron fist, leaving blood on the cabinet floor. Which will it be? But, hey, this is New Labour. There must be a third way.
Thomas McLaughlin, Jordanhill, Glasgow.
Once again a religious leader rants about the creating of human/animal embryos. He claims that man is unique and distinct from all other animals, although the evidence does not support his theory. Our closest relative in the animal kingdom, the chimpanzee, shares 98% of his genome with us. We can quantify the number of mutations that have occurred since it was 100% - ie, since we were both one and the same species. We know the average rate at which mutations occur and the average length of one generation, so it is possible to calculate that our two species diverged about six million years ago somewhere on the plains of Africa where the archaeological evidence is found.
Here an ape-like creature gave birth to two daughters; one produced a lineage which over the centuries underwent many mutations and formed several discreet species. After about a quarter of a million generations, only one survives, Homo sapiens, us. Meanwhile, her sister also gave rise to a lineage that eventually produced Pan troglodyte, the chimp. These facts may be unpalatable to some but they are incontrovertible.
It has been known for some time that new tissue and organs can be grown from stem cells obtained from embryos. Animals can provide a plentiful supply of fertilised eggs and when the nucleus is removed from one of these and replaced with the nucleus from the cell of a patient, the resulting embryo will provide stem cells from which can be grown healthy tissue and organs, compatible with the patient's own tissue and thus accepted by the immune system.
These cells are almost completely human since only the supporting cytoplasm and organelles are of animal origin; all the nuclear DNA is human. The research that could provide cures for many distressing and often fatal diseases has been delayed for years by influential religious leaders holding opinions that have no foundation in fact. This situation must not be allowed to continue; the many thousands of sufferers have waited long enough.
Clare Marsh,
272 Bath Street, Glasgow.
While conceding the right of Cardinal Keith O'Brien, leader of Scotland's Catholics, to spout forth his revulsion at this forthcoming Bill (The Herald, March 22), I despair at the description given as monstrous and likening it to Frankenstein.
I disagree with such utterances as they are totally scaremongering in content and without real substance. His homily to his faithful on Easter Sunday should have been about a Risen Christ, not about embryonic research; a subject he probably knows little about in scientific terms. I know if I had been in attendance at St Mary's Cathedral yesterday, it would have been the Easter message of Triumph over Evil that I should have hoped to have heard, the very essence of the Christian Gospel. I was fortunate enough to be in my place in my small but vibrant Congregational Church, listening to such a message.
Recently, we also had the unedifying spectacle of the Bishop of Motherwell misreading the pulse of 21st-century Scotland with a speech that should never have been written, let alone released for public consumption: full of intolerance and lacking in compassion against a certain section of humanity.
I know many Catholic friends, and they find their church, at times, in a dinosaural mode when it comes to looking forward in a changing world, especially with experimentation in the field of scientific knowledge which might give cause to the eradication of all sorts of diseases that might or might not some day have an impact on any family.
None of us is immune; not even cardinals or bishops. I applaud Jim Devine, Labour MP for Livingstone,
a Catholic, who feels so strongly about the positive aspects of this Bill that he, unlike some elected members on all sides of the Westminster fraternity, is prepared to put his head above the parapet and declare his intentions on this Bill.
MPs should remember when those eligible to vote make their way to the polling booth, they don't vote on religious grounds but on a manifesto offered at the time. Cardinal O'Brien would do well to remember that intemperate language allied to a sort of arrogance cuts no ice with the a vast number in today's Scotland. He certainly doesn't speak for me.
Nelson Corbett, Cumnock.
In this argument which has been reduced to science v religion, it is important to point out that Cardinal O'Brien has a degree in chemistry from Edinburgh University, so his remarks are better informed than some people think.
Veronica Gordon Smith, Edinburgh.
WHY should the Prime Minister should allow a free vote on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill? If MPs are allowed to vote on matters of policy on the basis of religious affiliation, then the electorate will feel compelled to take into account the religious affiliations when choosing an MP. It is difficult to imagine a worse outcome in a country still struggling to rid itself of sectarianism.
Paul Braterman,
Professor Emeritus, University of North Texas; Honorary Senior Research Fellow in Chemistry, University of Glasgow.
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Posted by: Robert S A Moir on 12:15am Mon 24 Mar 08
The Cardinal is entitled to express his views, and those of his Church, and to ask ALL MPs to vote against any measure. However he should not appear to direct the line to be taken by MPs who share his faith. To do so attacks the basis on which we elect our MPs; they are not delegates but representatives and not to be suborned by particular interests.
The Cardinal is entitled to express his views, and those of his Church, and to ask ALL MPs to vote against any measure. However he should not appear to direct the line to be taken by MPs who share his faith. To do so attacks the basis on which we elect our MPs; they are not delegates but representatives and not to be suborned by particular interests.
Posted by: Chris, Glasgow on 12:22am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote]In fact, scientists are overwhelmingly positive and confident that these devastating illnesses can be consigned to history.[/quote]
or
[quote]I know if I had been in attendance at St Mary's Cathedral yesterday, it would have been the Easter message of Triumph over Evil that I should have hoped to have heard[/quote]
It seems odd that the secular supporter of science seems as unjustifiably hopeful as the fervent believer in the Risen Christ.
In fact, scientists are overwhelmingly positive and confident that these devastating illnesses can be consigned to history.
or
I know if I had been in attendance at St Mary's Cathedral yesterday, it would have been the Easter message of Triumph over Evil that I should have hoped to have heard
It seems odd that the secular supporter of science seems as unjustifiably hopeful as the fervent believer in the Risen Christ.
Posted by: Brian D Finch, Brigadoon on 12:22am Mon 24 Mar 08
Headline: [quote]Church at odds with progress of human race[/quote] Inserting animal DNA into human embryos is not what I would call [italic][bold]progress[/bold] [/italic]. Once the techniques are established, we can expect docile sub-human slave workers to be bred to do the work needed to cosset the elite in their privileges. The working classes will not then be necessary, particularly as they will want wages that the sub-humans will not need. The future will then be bleak for the (formerly) working classes.
Headline:
Church at odds with progress of human race
Inserting animal DNA into human embryos is not what I would call
progress . Once the techniques are established, we can expect docile sub-human slave workers to be bred to do the work needed to cosset the elite in their privileges. The working classes will not then be necessary, particularly as they will want wages that the sub-humans will not need. The future will then be bleak for the (formerly) working classes.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 12:37am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote]MPs should remember when those eligible to vote make their way to the polling booth, they don't vote on religious grounds but on a manifesto offered at the time.[/quote]-Nelson Corbett
Would Mr Corbett care to point this out to Jim Devine MP? As a letter above his own points out (Mr McLaughlin's) the creation of human/animal hybrids was not in anybody's manifesto at the last election.
More generally, it is important to separate two issues here:
1) the creation such trans-species embryos for therapeutic research is one whos merits may be debated;
2) the right of MPs to vote on such an issue, for or against, according to their individual consciences rather than be whipped through a government lobby.
It does not help to conflate the two matters. It is possible to support such research and deplore the denial of individual conscience, whether guided by religious teaching or otherwise.
MPs should remember when those eligible to vote make their way to the polling booth, they don't vote on religious grounds but on a manifesto offered at the time.
-Nelson Corbett
Would Mr Corbett care to point this out to Jim Devine MP? As a letter above his own points out (Mr McLaughlin's) the creation of human/animal hybrids was not in anybody's manifesto at the last election.
More generally, it is important to separate two issues here:
1) the creation such trans-species embryos for therapeutic research is one whos merits may be debated;
2) the right of MPs to vote on such an issue, for or against, according to their individual consciences rather than be whipped through a government lobby.
It does not help to conflate the two matters. It is possible to support such research and deplore the denial of individual conscience, whether guided by religious teaching or otherwise.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:56am Mon 24 Mar 08
I am again shocked that the message in this case is being ignored simply because of the identity of the person delivering it. We ALL have consciences, or should have, and it is interesting to note that so far no one seems to have a problem with the Prime Minister of this country suggesting that only catholics possess such a thing. By offering to allow catholics to be excused from the vote that is exactly what he is saying. Those not of that faith, particularly in the comments, should feel deeply insulted. This is no compromise by Brown. He may be excusing certain people: he is still not allowing anyone to vote against him. If those who back him on this issue are also as a result backing the implication that there is no place in the Commons for a conscience then we have reached a sorry state indeed.
I have expressed several times my alarm about this being turned into a catholic issue when the issue being debated is so very serious and one which should concern us all. For all of us with a conscience boundaries in science should be something we do not want to see swept away. I recognise all the pleas on behalf of sick people who would benefit from this that and the other but I know too that promises were made in the past that science would never be permitted to mix human and animal cells in this way. Other countries have already banned this sort of research. What is coming across is that no one cares and that is alarming because frankly I don't believe it is a true reflection of public feeling. There are many people out there who are extremely uncomfortable with this whole proposal. Why is that being played down?
It is a very alarming thing indeed when a Prime Minister suggests there is no place for a conscience in the House of Commons and it is also highly disturbing that a free vote on such an issue is not being allowed. As ordinary people we should all be concerned about that and for so many to prefer to focus instead on attacking the messenger simply because of his religion is perhaps the most disturbing aspect in all of this.
I am again shocked that the message in this case is being ignored simply because of the identity of the person delivering it. We ALL have consciences, or should have, and it is interesting to note that so far no one seems to have a problem with the Prime Minister of this country suggesting that only catholics possess such a thing. By offering to allow catholics to be excused from the vote that is exactly what he is saying. Those not of that faith, particularly in the comments, should feel deeply insulted. This is no compromise by Brown. He may be excusing certain people: he is still not allowing anyone to vote against him. If those who back him on this issue are also as a result backing the implication that there is no place in the Commons for a conscience then we have reached a sorry state indeed.
I have expressed several times my alarm about this being turned into a catholic issue when the issue being debated is so very serious and one which should concern us all. For all of us with a conscience boundaries in science should be something we do not want to see swept away. I recognise all the pleas on behalf of sick people who would benefit from this that and the other but I know too that promises were made in the past that science would never be permitted to mix human and animal cells in this way. Other countries have already banned this sort of research. What is coming across is that no one cares and that is alarming because frankly I don't believe it is a true reflection of public feeling. There are many people out there who are extremely uncomfortable with this whole proposal. Why is that being played down?
It is a very alarming thing indeed when a Prime Minister suggests there is no place for a conscience in the House of Commons and it is also highly disturbing that a free vote on such an issue is not being allowed. As ordinary people we should all be concerned about that and for so many to prefer to focus instead on attacking the messenger simply because of his religion is perhaps the most disturbing aspect in all of this.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 1:05am Mon 24 Mar 08
"The government's Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill contains a controversial measure which would allow the creation of human/animal hybrid embryos for medical research. "
This is from the Herald's Editorial on the issue today. (There is no comments section.) It is self explanatory.
The interesting thing is that what the sentence says was specifically denied in yesterday's Sunday Herald by the person putting the case for the Bill. Dr Minger I believe his name was. How very apt. Maybe his first name is Lying.
"The government's Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill contains a controversial measure which would allow the creation of human/animal hybrid embryos for medical research. "
This is from the Herald's Editorial on the issue today. (There is no comments section.) It is self explanatory.
The interesting thing is that what the sentence says was specifically denied in yesterday's Sunday Herald by the person putting the case for the Bill. Dr Minger I believe his name was. How very apt. Maybe his first name is Lying.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 1:08am Mon 24 Mar 08
"Where the Church has it wrong is in thinking we are mixing human and animal cells together, creating something that is a true hybrid."
What Dr Minger said yesterday in the SH.
"Where the Church has it wrong is in thinking we are mixing human and animal cells together, creating something that is a true hybrid."
What Dr Minger said yesterday in the SH.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 1:19am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote]I am again shocked that the message in this case is being ignored simply because of the identity of the person delivering it.[/quote] -Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:56am today
Me too. I find myself in agreement with ALL of those, whether of the Cardinal's persuasion or no, who argue for a free vote on this matter -which is as much an issue of conscience as the vote on the Iraq War. I do not hear many today criticising the RC Church's admirable opposition to that calamity.
Secondly, you do not have to buy in to the Cardinal's world-view to be perturbed by this issue itself. More than one "secular" poster on these threads is opposed to hybrid embryo experimentation.
I am again shocked that the message in this case is being ignored simply because of the identity of the person delivering it.
-Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:56am today
Me too. I find myself in agreement with ALL of those, whether of the Cardinal's persuasion or no, who argue for a free vote on this matter -which is as much an issue of conscience as the vote on the Iraq War. I do not hear many today criticising the RC Church's admirable opposition to that calamity.
Secondly, you do not have to buy in to the Cardinal's world-view to be perturbed by this issue itself. More than one "secular" poster on these threads is opposed to hybrid embryo experimentation.
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 8:16am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote]This matter is so serious that we must now ask if we are to base political decisions involving health and medicine on the absurd idea that a just-fertilised cell, which has no brain, no organs or bones, no personality and no central nervous system, equals a human being.[/quote]
This is the crux of the dilemma. If one believes in a “nuts and bolts” approach to life and the creation of life and that Man is no different from “the beasts of the field” then it is a logical extension of that thesis to allow this genetic manipulation.
If however one looks at the process of birth from the viewpoint that from a starting-point of the fusion of two microscopic gametes, too small to be seen by the naked eye, that without further external influence a living breathing sentient individual develops it is difficult to subscribe to this point of view.
Considering all the information required to complete the process is “onboard” at the point of fertilisation the point at which it becomes “human” is a matter of opinion not one of fact.
Science does not “know” anything it simply has an explanation for what is observed and the explanations do change.
It has been recorded that some people who receive organ transplants also receive memory and character traits from the donor but since this is difficult to reconcile with scientific theory it is conveniently ignored.
If your leg is amputated does it know it is dying? Just because it can no longer communicate with the rest of your body is it unaware of what is happening?
This is not a “black and white” situation it is a big bottomless grey area and on balance I agree that the potential medical spin-offs from this type of research are of such magnitude that the program should be pursued with vigour but then again I would advocate the testing of drugs on convicted criminals and capital punishment.
Why accord a human tissue rights at one stage and not another just because it can talk back?
This matter is so serious that we must now ask if we are to base political decisions involving health and medicine on the absurd idea that a just-fertilised cell, which has no brain, no organs or bones, no personality and no central nervous system, equals a human being.
This is the crux of the dilemma. If one believes in a “nuts and bolts” approach to life and the creation of life and that Man is no different from “the beasts of the field” then it is a logical extension of that thesis to allow this genetic manipulation.
If however one looks at the process of birth from the viewpoint that from a starting-point of the fusion of two microscopic gametes, too small to be seen by the naked eye, that without further external influence a living breathing sentient individual develops it is difficult to subscribe to this point of view.
Considering all the information required to complete the process is “onboard” at the point of fertilisation the point at which it becomes “human” is a matter of opinion not one of fact.
Science does not “know” anything it simply has an explanation for what is observed and the explanations do change.
It has been recorded that some people who receive organ transplants also receive memory and character traits from the donor but since this is difficult to reconcile with scientific theory it is conveniently ignored.
If your leg is amputated does it know it is dying? Just because it can no longer communicate with the rest of your body is it unaware of what is happening?
This is not a “black and white” situation it is a big bottomless grey area and on balance I agree that the potential medical spin-offs from this type of research are of such magnitude that the program should be pursued with vigour but then again I would advocate the testing of drugs on convicted criminals and capital punishment.
Why accord a human tissue rights at one stage and not another just because it can talk back?
Posted by: John, glasgow on 9:00am Mon 24 Mar 08
Kenny McGuigan states: [quote]On the official Roman Catholic Church's website, it is claimed that stem cell research has not yielded any worthwhile results. In fact, scientists are overwhelmingly positive and confident that these devastating illnesses can be consigned to history.[/quote]
What it does say is: We continue to be told that experimenting on [bold]embryos[/bold] will lead us to cures and treatments. Yet as the years have gone by not one single treatment or therapy has emerged. In the meantime research using [bold]adult[/bold] stem cells has led to over 70 different therapies and treatments, without destroying a single embryo.
Why not put the energy into adult stem cell research?
Scientists need to tell us why they want to experiment on embryos and why not use adult stem cells.
Kenny McGuigan states:
On the official Roman Catholic Church's website, it is claimed that stem cell research has not yielded any worthwhile results. In fact, scientists are overwhelmingly positive and confident that these devastating illnesses can be consigned to history.
What it does say is: We continue to be told that experimenting on
embryos will lead us to cures and treatments. Yet as the years have gone by not one single treatment or therapy has emerged. In the meantime research using
adult stem cells has led to over 70 different therapies and treatments, without destroying a single embryo.
Why not put the energy into adult stem cell research?
Scientists need to tell us why they want to experiment on embryos and why not use adult stem cells.
Posted by: fatzdomingo, Glasgow on 9:29am Mon 24 Mar 08
God is a very smart fellah! Long long time ago, he gave stories to non- technological folk saying something like....."don't do it with your sister" and "really don't do it with that sheep". They didn't really understand why not...but in the main they did as they were told. They later wrote these, and other "rules" down. Not only so that they didn't forget it, but that others after them would know about them rules too. These ancients were really smart you see! Now we are a little bit more sophisticated, we understand about genetics, the absolute danger of having progeny - not right in the cabbage and possibly carrying hideous physical deformities - all because we didn't listen to "don't do it with you sister, cousin or anyone else close to you for that matter!" - genetic differences virtually non-existent etc. you see! Now we get to miss out the physical "don't do it with sheep" we just extract the bits that we want and mix it up in a test tube to get the result that we require! - Doesn't "break" any rules that way, does it? Then the pesky Catholics come along and remind us of those rules from long ago. Now then....why did God make those rules? Better ask the Catholics, maybe they know the answer.
God is a very smart fellah! Long long time ago, he gave stories to non- technological folk saying something like....."don't do it with your sister" and "really don't do it with that sheep". They didn't really understand why not...but in the main they did as they were told. They later wrote these, and other "rules" down. Not only so that they didn't forget it, but that others after them would know about them rules too. These ancients were really smart you see! Now we are a little bit more sophisticated, we understand about genetics, the absolute danger of having progeny - not right in the cabbage and possibly carrying hideous physical deformities - all because we didn't listen to "don't do it with you sister, cousin or anyone else close to you for that matter!" - genetic differences virtually non-existent etc. you see! Now we get to miss out the physical "don't do it with sheep" we just extract the bits that we want and mix it up in a test tube to get the result that we require! - Doesn't "break" any rules that way, does it? Then the pesky Catholics come along and remind us of those rules from long ago. Now then....why did God make those rules? Better ask the Catholics, maybe they know the answer.
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 9:33am Mon 24 Mar 08
It all boilsdown to one simple question. Are these 'embryos' viable outside of the lab? I would say , no!
The problem that religious people have with this is simple. Their whole system of belief in based on their God(s) creating humans. It has been proven that humans can create life independently in the lab, ergo their belief systems are tpe! Nobody likes to be told that they have been believing in garbage for years.
Sad, but true!
It all boilsdown to one simple question. Are these 'embryos' viable outside of the lab? I would say , no!
The problem that religious people have with this is simple. Their whole system of belief in based on their God(s) creating humans. It has been proven that humans can create life independently in the lab, ergo their belief systems are tpe! Nobody likes to be told that they have been believing in garbage for years.
Sad, but true!
Posted by: Gordon_J on 9:42am Mon 24 Mar 08
What is a "conscience issue"? I voted for an MP on the basis of policies not the religion of the candidate - which I didn't know in the case of most candidates anyway.
Talk of "Catholic MPs" worries me. I don't recall anyone of that party being elected. Why should MPs put their own religious beliefs ahead of the policies they were elected on?
What is a "conscience issue"? I voted for an MP on the basis of policies not the religion of the candidate - which I didn't know in the case of most candidates anyway.
Talk of "Catholic MPs" worries me. I don't recall anyone of that party being elected. Why should MPs put their own religious beliefs ahead of the policies they were elected on?
Posted by: Richard Davis, Vienna on 9:47am Mon 24 Mar 08
It is all very well talking about ethics and practice, nobody has mentioned what the people who have the most to gain from this think... i.e. sick and disabled.
I have suffered from Multiple Sclerosis for the past 27 years. I have been unable to work for the past 12 years and have gone from being totally independent to being dependant. If there is a chance that a 'cure' could be found (I and I am sure fellow suffers would back me up) am all in favour.
It is all very well for someone who has their health to postulate on the rights and wrong of treatment, but please spare a thought for those who are less fortunate.
It is all very well talking about ethics and practice, nobody has mentioned what the people who have the most to gain from this think... i.e. sick and disabled.
I have suffered from Multiple Sclerosis for the past 27 years. I have been unable to work for the past 12 years and have gone from being totally independent to being dependant. If there is a chance that a 'cure' could be found (I and I am sure fellow suffers would back me up) am all in favour.
It is all very well for someone who has their health to postulate on the rights and wrong of treatment, but please spare a thought for those who are less fortunate.
Posted by: Usconbuts, Glasgow on 9:50am Mon 24 Mar 08
MPs should be allowed to vote as they see fit, and take their chances with their party leaders and their constituents.
My objections to the behaviour of church leaders are these: they sadly reprove the politicians who refuse to do much about environmental catastrophe, enrich themselves at the expense of the public, or conduct murderous wars; but these same religious leaders are relatively restrained about such things -- they don't threaten excommunication.
But when it comes to issues like homosexuality, or embryonic research, which are not clearly moral issues at all -- except in the general sense that everything has moral implications -- the religious bosses go completely tonto.
And I like the definition of "conscience". A three line whip is what the party hierarchy tells you to do; conscience is what the Cardinal tells you to do.
MPs should be allowed to vote as they see fit, and take their chances with their party leaders and their constituents.
My objections to the behaviour of church leaders are these: they sadly reprove the politicians who refuse to do much about environmental catastrophe, enrich themselves at the expense of the public, or conduct murderous wars; but these same religious leaders are relatively restrained about such things -- they don't threaten excommunication.
But when it comes to issues like homosexuality, or embryonic research, which are not clearly moral issues at all -- except in the general sense that everything has moral implications -- the religious bosses go completely tonto.
And I like the definition of "conscience". A three line whip is what the party hierarchy tells you to do; conscience is what the Cardinal tells you to do.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 9:51am Mon 24 Mar 08
I don't buy into this conscience nonsense by Labour politicians.
Embyro research/stem cell research has already proven itself. There are already medical treatments in place that treat such things as leukemia, rare blood disorders and other types of cancer that have been derived from such research. It is a success story for thousands of people.
The reality is that because of this success and it's potential to cure other cellular disorders and diseases there is a large majority at Westminster who will pass this embryo legislation. Gordon Brown if he so wished could ignore those Labour politicians who profess to have a conscience on this matter.
The other reality, that one I find repugnant, is that more Labour ministers are prepared to resign over this issue than happened with the Westminster vote on Iraq; and it this that Gordon Brown is trying to prevent - Cabinet resignations.
[bold]The comparisons could not be more stark:[/bold]
1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives.
2. The invasion of Iraq has seen over a million dead, 4 million displaced, a country ruined, a region destabilised and world disorder.
A. The Catholic church is opposed to embryonic research that will save million of lives.
B. The Catholic church accepted Tony Blair, a war criminal and crook, into it's fold.
[bold]This arguement tell us more about the Catholic church and it's perverted view on humanity.[/bold]
I don't buy into this conscience nonsense by Labour politicians.
Embyro research/stem cell research has already proven itself. There are already medical treatments in place that treat such things as leukemia, rare blood disorders and other types of cancer that have been derived from such research. It is a success story for thousands of people.
The reality is that because of this success and it's potential to cure other cellular disorders and diseases there is a large majority at Westminster who will pass this embryo legislation. Gordon Brown if he so wished could ignore those Labour politicians who profess to have a conscience on this matter.
The other reality, that one I find repugnant, is that more Labour ministers are prepared to resign over this issue than happened with the Westminster vote on Iraq; and it this that Gordon Brown is trying to prevent - Cabinet resignations.
The comparisons could not be more stark:
1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives.
2. The invasion of Iraq has seen over a million dead, 4 million displaced, a country ruined, a region destabilised and world disorder.
A. The Catholic church is opposed to embryonic research that will save million of lives.
B. The Catholic church accepted Tony Blair, a war criminal and crook, into it's fold.
This arguement tell us more about the Catholic church and it's perverted view on humanity. Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 9:51am Mon 24 Mar 08
I don't buy into this conscience nonsense by Labour politicians.
Embyro research/stem cell research has already proven itself. There are already medical treatments in place that treat such things as leukemia, rare blood disorders and other types of cancer that have been derived from such research. It is a success story for thousands of people.
The reality is that because of this success and it's potential to cure other cellular disorders and diseases there is a large majority at Westminster who will pass this embryo legislation. Gordon Brown if he so wished could ignore those Labour politicians who profess to have a conscience on this matter.
The other reality, that one I find repugnant, is that more Labour ministers are prepared to resign over this issue than happened with the Westminster vote on Iraq; and it this that Gordon Brown is trying to prevent - Cabinet resignations.
[bold]The comparisons could not be more stark:[/bold]
1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives.
2. The invasion of Iraq has seen over a million dead, 4 million displaced, a country ruined, a region destabilised and world disorder.
A. The Catholic church is opposed to embryonic research that will save million of lives.
B. The Catholic church accepted Tony Blair, a war criminal and crook, into it's fold.
[bold]This arguement tell us more about the Catholic church and it's perverted view on humanity.[/bold]
I don't buy into this conscience nonsense by Labour politicians.
Embyro research/stem cell research has already proven itself. There are already medical treatments in place that treat such things as leukemia, rare blood disorders and other types of cancer that have been derived from such research. It is a success story for thousands of people.
The reality is that because of this success and it's potential to cure other cellular disorders and diseases there is a large majority at Westminster who will pass this embryo legislation. Gordon Brown if he so wished could ignore those Labour politicians who profess to have a conscience on this matter.
The other reality, that one I find repugnant, is that more Labour ministers are prepared to resign over this issue than happened with the Westminster vote on Iraq; and it this that Gordon Brown is trying to prevent - Cabinet resignations.
The comparisons could not be more stark:
1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives.
2. The invasion of Iraq has seen over a million dead, 4 million displaced, a country ruined, a region destabilised and world disorder.
A. The Catholic church is opposed to embryonic research that will save million of lives.
B. The Catholic church accepted Tony Blair, a war criminal and crook, into it's fold.
This arguement tell us more about the Catholic church and it's perverted view on humanity. Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 9:56am Mon 24 Mar 08
Would those who claim that the advancement of science and medicine takes priority over conscience also approve of the experiments of Josef Mengele, which, after all, were for the same purpose?
Would those who claim that the advancement of science and medicine takes priority over conscience also approve of the experiments of Josef Mengele, which, after all, were for the same purpose?
Posted by: Gordon_J on 10:04am Mon 24 Mar 08
Mengele experimented on people, not,on cells. A very big difference.
Mengele experimented on people, not,on cells. A very big difference.
Posted by: sam, greenock on 10:11am Mon 24 Mar 08
If this research can stop, in the future, people going through the illnesses like dementia, which we had to witness happening to my mam, then go ahead and do it.
Also if this research is stopped because of the likes of the "good" cardinal and his ilk and their hypocritical religons the fek them all and their gods, will they be the first in the queue to tell some family that yer wean isn't going to be saved because God says so.......Aye Right!
Did God also tell the RC church that sexually abusing weans and then covering it up was OK too...........I think not
If this research can stop, in the future, people going through the illnesses like dementia, which we had to witness happening to my mam, then go ahead and do it.
Also if this research is stopped because of the likes of the "good" cardinal and his ilk and their hypocritical religons the fek them all and their gods, will they be the first in the queue to tell some family that yer wean isn't going to be saved because God says so.......Aye Right!
Did God also tell the RC church that sexually abusing weans and then covering it up was OK too...........I think not
Posted by: sam, greenock on 10:11am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote][bold]BM[/bold] wrote:
Would those who claim that the advancement of science and medicine takes priority over conscience also approve of the experiments of Josef Mengele, which, after all, were for the same purpose?[/quote] Ask the pope, he's the "former" NAZI after all.................
.............
BM wrote:
Would those who claim that the advancement of science and medicine takes priority over conscience also approve of the experiments of Josef Mengele, which, after all, were for the same purpose?
Ask the pope, he's the "former" NAZI after all.................
.............
Posted by: brian, glasgow on 10:21am Mon 24 Mar 08
How much genuine public debate has there been about this legislation. Not much. I attended one such debate (first in my life) at Glasgow University, and there were speakers from the legal system, medical wold and a Labour and Conservative Peer as well as the MP Anne Widdecombe. For someone who nothing about the issues involved it was very informative. The main point I learned from the evening was that throughout the country there had not been enough such opportunities and apparently in Parliament the debate was accused of being 'closed down' by thte government and not allowing enough time for discussion by MP's.
How much genuine public debate has there been about this legislation. Not much. I attended one such debate (first in my life) at Glasgow University, and there were speakers from the legal system, medical wold and a Labour and Conservative Peer as well as the MP Anne Widdecombe. For someone who nothing about the issues involved it was very informative. The main point I learned from the evening was that throughout the country there had not been enough such opportunities and apparently in Parliament the debate was accused of being 'closed down' by thte government and not allowing enough time for discussion by MP's.
Posted by: chris walker, west kilbride on 10:26am Mon 24 Mar 08
The bigots have already begun their distorting of the bill as a piece of secularist triumphalism when in fact it has emerged only after marked and lengthy attempts to resolve serious issues in the most considered manner. Conscience is not the prerogative of the religious amongst us, Nor, as Clare rightly argues, is it solely a "catholic" issue for those against the bill. Picking this weekend as the context to frame the bill in a coordinated attack was inevitable and I have no quarrel with that, but rhetoric enshrining "Frankenstein" or even wordplay on the person who leads the research (Mr Minger), reflect some of the unhelpful subjectivity on display. accusations of lying are otiose. This always occurs in legislation of this type but seldom helps serious debate. In the same way the original 1990 legislation, from clear memory, provoked much heat while shedding little light.
However, and here I take sides with Cardinal O'Brien, the 1990 episode also allowed a free vote and several cabinet ministers voted against the government of the day (extant) which was promoting that measure. Two of these concomitants were embryo research and abortion. People are absolutely entitled to exercise their conscience on such profound issues, especially, repeat especially, on the most contentious issues. That principle must obtain on this occasion, and not circumscribed by being heavily whipped. As Thomas McLaughlin foreshadows, will it be Big Clunkin or Mr Macavity who prevails?
The bigots have already begun their distorting of the bill as a piece of secularist triumphalism when in fact it has emerged only after marked and lengthy attempts to resolve serious issues in the most considered manner. Conscience is not the prerogative of the religious amongst us, Nor, as Clare rightly argues, is it solely a "catholic" issue for those against the bill. Picking this weekend as the context to frame the bill in a coordinated attack was inevitable and I have no quarrel with that, but rhetoric enshrining "Frankenstein" or even wordplay on the person who leads the research (Mr Minger), reflect some of the unhelpful subjectivity on display. accusations of lying are otiose. This always occurs in legislation of this type but seldom helps serious debate. In the same way the original 1990 legislation, from clear memory, provoked much heat while shedding little light.
However, and here I take sides with Cardinal O'Brien, the 1990 episode also allowed a free vote and several cabinet ministers voted against the government of the day (extant) which was promoting that measure. Two of these concomitants were embryo research and abortion. People are absolutely entitled to exercise their conscience on such profound issues, especially, repeat especially, on the most contentious issues. That principle must obtain on this occasion, and not circumscribed by being heavily whipped. As Thomas McLaughlin foreshadows, will it be Big Clunkin or Mr Macavity who prevails?
Posted by: Usconbuts, Glasgow on 10:41am Mon 24 Mar 08
Neither Anne Widdecombe nor other committed religious thinkers give a toss about "genuine public debate", at least on issues dear to the Church hierarchy. As Gerry Devlin wrote: Letters 22/03/08:
“The fundamental difference is that secularist moral values are based on the relationship between humans and are subject to change, and religious moral values are based on the relationship between man and God and are absolute”.
It’s nonsense of course. We no longer sell our daughters into sex slavery as permitted in the Pentateuch (or maybe that’s not a “moral value”); but in confrontation with that sort of religious mindset, public debate gets chucked out the window.
"Genuine public debate" -- or the infallibility of the Magisterium?
No, it's a joke!
Neither Anne Widdecombe nor other committed religious thinkers give a toss about "genuine public debate", at least on issues dear to the Church hierarchy. As Gerry Devlin wrote: Letters 22/03/08:
“The fundamental difference is that secularist moral values are based on the relationship between humans and are subject to change, and religious moral values are based on the relationship between man and God and are absolute”.
It’s nonsense of course. We no longer sell our daughters into sex slavery as permitted in the Pentateuch (or maybe that’s not a “moral value”); but in confrontation with that sort of religious mindset, public debate gets chucked out the window.
"Genuine public debate" -- or the infallibility of the Magisterium?
No, it's a joke!
Posted by: Martin McDonald, Cumbernauld on 10:48am Mon 24 Mar 08
I'm just amazed there's no letter from Dr David Shaw. Maybe after the dismantling of his nonsense and his running away from debates the last few times he has thought better of it.
I'm just amazed there's no letter from Dr David Shaw. Maybe after the dismantling of his nonsense and his running away from debates the last few times he has thought better of it.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 11:06am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Cynicus[/bold] wrote:
[quote]I am again shocked that the message in this case is being ignored simply because of the identity of the person delivering it.[/quote] -Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:56am today Me too. I find myself in agreement with ALL of those, whether of the Cardinal's persuasion or no, who argue for a free vote on this matter -which is as much an issue of conscience as the vote on the Iraq War. I do not hear many today criticising the RC Church's admirable opposition to that calamity. Secondly, you do not have to buy in to the Cardinal's world-view to be perturbed by this issue itself. More than one "secular" poster on these threads is opposed to hybrid embryo experimentation.[/quote] Cynicus, thank you for that, it is reassuring.
Cynicus wrote:
I am again shocked that the message in this case is being ignored simply because of the identity of the person delivering it.
-Clare, Lanarkshire on 12:56am today Me too. I find myself in agreement with ALL of those, whether of the Cardinal's persuasion or no, who argue for a free vote on this matter -which is as much an issue of conscience as the vote on the Iraq War. I do not hear many today criticising the RC Church's admirable opposition to that calamity. Secondly, you do not have to buy in to the Cardinal's world-view to be perturbed by this issue itself. More than one "secular" poster on these threads is opposed to hybrid embryo experimentation.
Cynicus, thank you for that, it is reassuring.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 11:16am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Mike MacKinnon[/bold] wrote:
It all boilsdown to one simple question. Are these 'embryos' viable outside of the lab? I would say , no! The problem that religious people have with this is simple. Their whole system of belief in based on their God(s) creating humans. It has been proven that humans can create life independently in the lab, ergo their belief systems are tpe! Nobody likes to be told that they have been believing in garbage for years. Sad, but true![/quote] Mike I would agree that your view is sad, but it certainly isn't true. Your arrogance in rubbishing the views of others says it all about you really and that is sad also. I'm just happy there are still a few people around with consciences and you won't shut them up. They have more courage than you do obviously as it takes no courage at all to run with the pack and attack a person just because of their religion. Maybe you'll find a conscience yourself one day or are you of the Hitler persuasion where he sent those with consciences to the concentration camps along with the Jews? That's quite a role model you follow there yourself Mike, he was into experiments like this too!
Mike MacKinnon wrote:
It all boilsdown to one simple question. Are these 'embryos' viable outside of the lab? I would say , no! The problem that religious people have with this is simple. Their whole system of belief in based on their God(s) creating humans. It has been proven that humans can create life independently in the lab, ergo their belief systems are tpe! Nobody likes to be told that they have been believing in garbage for years. Sad, but true!
Mike I would agree that your view is sad, but it certainly isn't true. Your arrogance in rubbishing the views of others says it all about you really and that is sad also. I'm just happy there are still a few people around with consciences and you won't shut them up. They have more courage than you do obviously as it takes no courage at all to run with the pack and attack a person just because of their religion. Maybe you'll find a conscience yourself one day or are you of the Hitler persuasion where he sent those with consciences to the concentration camps along with the Jews? That's quite a role model you follow there yourself Mike, he was into experiments like this too!
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 11:20am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Usconbuts[/bold] wrote:
MPs should be allowed to vote as they see fit, and take their chances with their party leaders and their constituents. My objections to the behaviour of church leaders are these: they sadly reprove the politicians who refuse to do much about environmental catastrophe, enrich themselves at the expense of the public, or conduct murderous wars; but these same religious leaders are relatively restrained about such things -- they don't threaten excommunication. But when it comes to issues like homosexuality, or embryonic research, which are not clearly moral issues at all -- except in the general sense that everything has moral implications -- the religious bosses go completely tonto. And I like the definition of "conscience". A three line whip is what the party hierarchy tells you to do; conscience is what the Cardinal tells you to do.[/quote] Embryonic research isn't a moral issue? What planet are you on?
Usconbuts wrote:
MPs should be allowed to vote as they see fit, and take their chances with their party leaders and their constituents. My objections to the behaviour of church leaders are these: they sadly reprove the politicians who refuse to do much about environmental catastrophe, enrich themselves at the expense of the public, or conduct murderous wars; but these same religious leaders are relatively restrained about such things -- they don't threaten excommunication. But when it comes to issues like homosexuality, or embryonic research, which are not clearly moral issues at all -- except in the general sense that everything has moral implications -- the religious bosses go completely tonto. And I like the definition of "conscience". A three line whip is what the party hierarchy tells you to do; conscience is what the Cardinal tells you to do.
Embryonic research isn't a moral issue? What planet are you on?
Posted by: Victor Smith on 11:26am Mon 24 Mar 08
Surely if these Catholic MP’s, or any, are driven by ‘their’ own conscience ‘and the orders’ from their Church, against this move altogether, especially on a personal ‘conscience’ basis - should they really be members of a Government - or indeed any Political party that ‘goes in’ for this sort of thing - as New Labour apparently are doing?
Surely what ever they are voting for - or against, should be representative of their ‘Political’ flock and not driven / guided / instructed - or whatever, by outsiders of their representative Political field!
It is the decision of their constituents that should guide them, and to vote accordingly!
Also, if it is entirely down to their own personal conscience and they are against it - which is their choice (as it should be!) they should, in principle (Yes! I know, a nasty little stumbling block in the Political game - and can prove very expensive in monetary terms!) - resign instantly and completely, from being members of any Party that is, it seems ‘All for it - regardless!’ - isn’t that what Conscience is all about?
They say if they are not given a ‘Free’ vote, they will abstain and ‘resign’, or vote against it and risk being ‘sacked!’
My money on a bet would be - like their money, would be on ‘getting sacked’ - there seems to be a greater financial reward in Politics for that venture!
Cannot help feeling, in the Politicians attitude we see and experience these days, ‘Pay’ will always beat ‘Principle’ any time!
What position did 'Conscience' come in the race about the Iraqi War - when they must have known that vast numbers of 'Human Beings' would be slaughtered intentionally? Their 'Consciences' apparently were not pricked in the slightest - what a poor show! It seems that being two faced - as and when it suits, seems to be an occupational necessity in the Politics of the day!
When Robin Cook resigned I think he completely emptied the ‘Political Principle’ jar - or so it seems!
Surely if these Catholic MP’s, or any, are driven by ‘their’ own conscience ‘and the orders’ from their Church, against this move altogether, especially on a personal ‘conscience’ basis - should they really be members of a Government - or indeed any Political party that ‘goes in’ for this sort of thing - as New Labour apparently are doing?
Surely what ever they are voting for - or against, should be representative of their ‘Political’ flock and not driven / guided / instructed - or whatever, by outsiders of their representative Political field!
It is the decision of their constituents that should guide them, and to vote accordingly!
Also, if it is entirely down to their own personal conscience and they are against it - which is their choice (as it should be!) they should, in principle (Yes! I know, a nasty little stumbling block in the Political game - and can prove very expensive in monetary terms!) - resign instantly and completely, from being members of any Party that is, it seems ‘All for it - regardless!’ - isn’t that what Conscience is all about?
They say if they are not given a ‘Free’ vote, they will abstain and ‘resign’, or vote against it and risk being ‘sacked!’
My money on a bet would be - like their money, would be on ‘getting sacked’ - there seems to be a greater financial reward in Politics for that venture!
Cannot help feeling, in the Politicians attitude we see and experience these days, ‘Pay’ will always beat ‘Principle’ any time!
What position did 'Conscience' come in the race about the Iraqi War - when they must have known that vast numbers of 'Human Beings' would be slaughtered intentionally? Their 'Consciences' apparently were not pricked in the slightest - what a poor show! It seems that being two faced - as and when it suits, seems to be an occupational necessity in the Politics of the day!
When Robin Cook resigned I think he completely emptied the ‘Political Principle’ jar - or so it seems!
Posted by: Usconbuts, Glasgow on 11:37am Mon 24 Mar 08
Claire
Can you distinguish between a cell and a human being? Is wearing condoms to prevent AIDS a moral offence?
As to people being of the "Hitler persuasion" -- OK Ratzinger was only 15, so we'll let him off, but see:
http://www.shoahrose
.com/vatican.html
“At the local level, there were clergy of noble spirit and character who sacrificed in the saving of Jewish lives, but the Church as an institution, other than verbal support, either stayed completely silent, or actively participated in the Shoah.”
See: Lawsuit against Vatican and the CIA: msg#00199
“Pavelic and other Nazis were housed and protected in Vatican castles and monasteries, often taking the guise of priests [23.]. The Ustasha (Croatian fascist) loot was used to set up the Ustashe as an anticommunist freedom fighter.”
http://alexconstanti
ne.blogspot.com/2007
/07/nazi-gold-vatica
n.html
“The Vatican ratline (escape organization for Nazi war criminals) was initially exposed in 1983 in the Klaus Barbie case [19] but its full extent is still unknown. Levy v. Army and CIA has triggered a new declassification of several hundred documents never before released, which may yet shed some additional light on the ratline.”
Etc, etc, etc …
Claire
Can you distinguish between a cell and a human being? Is wearing condoms to prevent AIDS a moral offence?
As to people being of the "Hitler persuasion" -- OK Ratzinger was only 15, so we'll let him off, but see:
http://www.shoahrose
.com/vatican.html
“At the local level, there were clergy of noble spirit and character who sacrificed in the saving of Jewish lives, but the Church as an institution, other than verbal support, either stayed completely silent, or actively participated in the Shoah.”
See: Lawsuit against Vatican and the CIA: msg#00199
“Pavelic and other Nazis were housed and protected in Vatican castles and monasteries, often taking the guise of priests . The Ustasha (Croatian fascist) loot was used to set up the Ustashe as an anticommunist freedom fighter.”
http://alexconstanti
ne.blogspot.com/2007
/07/nazi-gold-vatica
n.html
“The Vatican ratline (escape organization for Nazi war criminals) was initially exposed in 1983 in the Klaus Barbie case but its full extent is still unknown. Levy v. Army and CIA has triggered a new declassification of several hundred documents never before released, which may yet shed some additional light on the ratline.”
Etc, etc, etc …
Posted by: Martin McDonald, Cumbernauld on 11:53am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Mac[/bold] wrote:
I don't buy into this conscience nonsense by Labour politicians.
Embyro research/stem cell research has already proven itself. There are already medical treatments in place that treat such things as leukemia, rare blood disorders and other types of cancer that have been derived from such research. It is a success story for thousands of people.
The reality is that because of this success and it's potential to cure other cellular disorders and diseases there is a large majority at Westminster who will pass this embryo legislation. Gordon Brown if he so wished could ignore those Labour politicians who profess to have a conscience on this matter.
The other reality, that one I find repugnant, is that more Labour ministers are prepared to resign over this issue than happened with the Westminster vote on Iraq; and it this that Gordon Brown is trying to prevent - Cabinet resignations.
[bold]The comparisons could not be more stark:[/bold]
1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives.
2. The invasion of Iraq has seen over a million dead, 4 million displaced, a country ruined, a region destabilised and world disorder.
A. The Catholic church is opposed to embryonic research that will save million of lives.
B. The Catholic church accepted Tony Blair, a war criminal and crook, into it's fold.
[bold]This arguement tell us more about the Catholic church and it's perverted view on humanity.[/bold] [/quote] "1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives."
A lie. Embryonic stem cell research has produced not one single treatment or cure. For anything. Non embryonic stem cell research has produced in excess of 80 cures and treatments. One wonders why the supporters of this bill feel the need to lie.
The supporters of this bill are trying to keep this debate about religion. It's dissembling at it's worst. They fail to acknowledge that people of all faiths and none are utterly opposed to this latest mission creep.
Mac wrote:
I don't buy into this conscience nonsense by Labour politicians.
Embyro research/stem cell research has already proven itself. There are already medical treatments in place that treat such things as leukemia, rare blood disorders and other types of cancer that have been derived from such research. It is a success story for thousands of people.
The reality is that because of this success and it's potential to cure other cellular disorders and diseases there is a large majority at Westminster who will pass this embryo legislation. Gordon Brown if he so wished could ignore those Labour politicians who profess to have a conscience on this matter.
The other reality, that one I find repugnant, is that more Labour ministers are prepared to resign over this issue than happened with the Westminster vote on Iraq; and it this that Gordon Brown is trying to prevent - Cabinet resignations.
The comparisons could not be more stark:
1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives.
2. The invasion of Iraq has seen over a million dead, 4 million displaced, a country ruined, a region destabilised and world disorder.
A. The Catholic church is opposed to embryonic research that will save million of lives.
B. The Catholic church accepted Tony Blair, a war criminal and crook, into it's fold.
This arguement tell us more about the Catholic church and it's perverted view on humanity.
"1. Embryo research has already saved thousands of lives and has the potential to save millions of lives."
A lie. Embryonic stem cell research has produced not one single treatment or cure. For anything. Non embryonic stem cell research has produced in excess of 80 cures and treatments. One wonders why the supporters of this bill feel the need to lie.
The supporters of this bill are trying to keep this debate about religion. It's dissembling at it's worst. They fail to acknowledge that people of all faiths and none are utterly opposed to this latest mission creep.
Posted by: Martin McDonald, Cumbernauld on 11:54am Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Usconbuts[/bold] wrote:
Claire
Can you distinguish between a cell and a human being? Is wearing condoms to prevent AIDS a moral offence?
As to people being of the "Hitler persuasion" -- OK Ratzinger was only 15, so we'll let him off, but see:
http://www.shoahrose
.com/vatican.html
“At the local level, there were clergy of noble spirit and character who sacrificed in the saving of Jewish lives, but the Church as an institution, other than verbal support, either stayed completely silent, or actively participated in the Shoah.”
See: Lawsuit against Vatican and the CIA: msg#00199
“Pavelic and other Nazis were housed and protected in Vatican castles and monasteries, often taking the guise of priests [23.]. The Ustasha (Croatian fascist) loot was used to set up the Ustashe as an anticommunist freedom fighter.”
http://alexconstanti
ne.blogspot.com/2007
/07/nazi-gold-vatica
n.html
“The Vatican ratline (escape organization for Nazi war criminals) was initially exposed in 1983 in the Klaus Barbie case [19] but its full extent is still unknown. Levy v. Army and CIA has triggered a new declassification of several hundred documents never before released, which may yet shed some additional light on the ratline.”
Etc, etc, etc …
[/quote] Please, nobody answer this. The supporters of this evil bill are trying to dissemble. Don't let them run away from this debate.
Usconbuts wrote:
Claire
Can you distinguish between a cell and a human being? Is wearing condoms to prevent AIDS a moral offence?
As to people being of the "Hitler persuasion" -- OK Ratzinger was only 15, so we'll let him off, but see:
http://www.shoahrose
.com/vatican.html
“At the local level, there were clergy of noble spirit and character who sacrificed in the saving of Jewish lives, but the Church as an institution, other than verbal support, either stayed completely silent, or actively participated in the Shoah.”
See: Lawsuit against Vatican and the CIA: msg#00199
“Pavelic and other Nazis were housed and protected in Vatican castles and monasteries, often taking the guise of priests . The Ustasha (Croatian fascist) loot was used to set up the Ustashe as an anticommunist freedom fighter.”
http://alexconstanti
ne.blogspot.com/2007
/07/nazi-gold-vatica
n.html
“The Vatican ratline (escape organization for Nazi war criminals) was initially exposed in 1983 in the Klaus Barbie case but its full extent is still unknown. Levy v. Army and CIA has triggered a new declassification of several hundred documents never before released, which may yet shed some additional light on the ratline.”
Etc, etc, etc …
Please, nobody answer this. The supporters of this evil bill are trying to dissemble. Don't let them run away from this debate.
Posted by: Martin McDonald, Cumbernauld on 12:07pm Mon 24 Mar 08
After twenty years of research, there are no approved treatments or human trials using embryonic stem cells.
Adult stem cell treatments have been used for many years to treat successfully leukemia and related bone/blood cancers through bone marrow transplants.
And now some scientists want to creat hybrid emryos to satisfy their curiosity. In reality the push to do this research is all about money. Those who support this bill are doing the will of big business and trading on the suffering people while offering utterly false hope as a feeble attempt to emotionally blackmail people into supporting this largely useless but lfinancially lucrative research.
After twenty years of research, there are no approved treatments or human trials using embryonic stem cells.
Adult stem cell treatments have been used for many years to treat successfully leukemia and related bone/blood cancers through bone marrow transplants.
And now some scientists want to creat hybrid emryos to satisfy their curiosity. In reality the push to do this research is all about money. Those who support this bill are doing the will of big business and trading on the suffering people while offering utterly false hope as a feeble attempt to emotionally blackmail people into supporting this largely useless but lfinancially lucrative research.
Posted by: Usconbuts, Glasgow on 12:10pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Martin
So much for genuine debate!
It as the Churches, not anyone else, who made this a religious issue; and it was the opponents of the Bill who decided to liken people to Nazis. So if anyone's running away from debate it's Clare and yourself.
Martin
So much for genuine debate!
It as the Churches, not anyone else, who made this a religious issue; and it was the opponents of the Bill who decided to liken people to Nazis. So if anyone's running away from debate it's Clare and yourself.
Posted by: Martin McDonald, Cumbernauld on 12:13pm Mon 24 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Usconbuts[/bold] wrote:
Martin
So much for genuine debate!
It as the Churches, not anyone else, who made this a religious issue; and it was the opponents of the Bill who decided to liken people to Nazis. So if anyone's running away from debate it's Clare and yourself.[/quote] You are failing to respond to any of the key points in this debate. Instead you are dissembling. While you do this you'll receive no more responses from me. You are wasting everyone's time.
Usconbuts wrote:
Martin
So much for genuine debate!
It as the Churches, not anyone else, who made this a religious issue; and it was the opponents of the Bill who decided to liken people to Nazis. So if anyone's running away from debate it's Clare and yourself.
You are failing to respond to any of the key points in this debate. Instead you are dissembling. While you do this you'll receive no more responses from me. You are wasting everyone's time.
Posted by: Usconbuts, Glasgow on 12:20pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Martin
Thanks for promising not to respond. At least I won't need to read things like your post of 10:11am Fri 17 Aug 07:
"Feminism is a corrupt supremacist ideology and attracts lots of people who are not interested in equality of the sexes but in the ascendency of women and the subjugation of men."
Martin
Thanks for promising not to respond. At least I won't need to read things like your post of 10:11am Fri 17 Aug 07:
"Feminism is a corrupt supremacist ideology and attracts lots of people who are not interested in equality of the sexes but in the ascendency of women and the subjugation of men."
Posted by: ubergeek, glasgow on 12:29pm Mon 24 Mar 08
the possiblity that a hybrid embryo has any chance of forming "life" is preposterous. One would require implantation of the collection of cells into a uterus for embryonic growth. There is also every possibility that a hybrid embryo would not successfully implant into a uterus and grow. There are really more important issues to worry about in the world today Brian D Finch than an army of sub-human drones to wipe out the working class.
the possiblity that a hybrid embryo has any chance of forming "life" is preposterous. One would require implantation of the collection of cells into a uterus for embryonic growth. There is also every possibility that a hybrid embryo would not successfully implant into a uterus and grow. There are really more important issues to worry about in the world today Brian D Finch than an army of sub-human drones to wipe out the working class.
Posted by: ubergeek, glasgow on 12:35pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Research proposals undergo scrutiny as to their validity and do not have carte blanche, so the argument that this is all being undertaken to satisfy curiosity is simply ill informed. How do you suppose they will make money out of this? And who are these big corporations?
Research proposals undergo scrutiny as to their validity and do not have carte blanche, so the argument that this is all being undertaken to satisfy curiosity is simply ill informed. How do you suppose they will make money out of this? And who are these big corporations?
Posted by: sam, greenock on 12:40pm Mon 24 Mar 08
There's a great deal of difference between objecting to this bill on grounds that you might think it may go to far, the legislation can be adapted to take care of this, and objecting to it because some hypocritic erse in a cassock said so.
Still no takers for being first in the queue to tel the parents/family of a seriously chronically ill person taht ther'll be no cure because god says so.
Says it all really..............
....................
.............C'mon Clare et al, stick your heads up from behind the wall and say I'll go up to the childrens hospital wards and say your like this because God said so...........and your never going to get better either..............
...because god said so.
You lot make me sick sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!
There's a great deal of difference between objecting to this bill on grounds that you might think it may go to far, the legislation can be adapted to take care of this, and objecting to it because some hypocritic erse in a cassock said so.
Still no takers for being first in the queue to tel the parents/family of a seriously chronically ill person taht ther'll be no cure because god says so.
Says it all really..............
....................
.............C'mon Clare et al, stick your heads up from behind the wall and say I'll go up to the childrens hospital wards and say your like this because God said so...........and your never going to get better either..............
...because god said so.
You lot make me sick sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:41pm Mon 24 Mar 08
This research does not mix human and animal cells to create a hybrid, Dr Minger is right, although it took me a good while of internet working to actually find out the truth of this matter, there has been so much erroneous information floating about. It does not create anything with the potential for life. Furthermore it is possible that this research will diminish the use of material taken from feotuses, which has always horrifed this particular atheist. Having said that, this should of course be subject to a free vote, the thought of three line whipping this should horrify anyone.
We should not have blind faith in science any more then blind faith in religion. If people do not see the serious ethical difficulties involved in any form of embrayonic research then they haven't thought it through.. On this ocasion I believe that what they propose to do is justified, but we should never let something like this go through without scrutinising it incredibly carefully. This is not a Catholic issue, it is an issue for everyone as everyone has a conscience and a responsibility to use it.
This research does not mix human and animal cells to create a hybrid, Dr Minger is right, although it took me a good while of internet working to actually find out the truth of this matter, there has been so much erroneous information floating a