
Missed opportunity of the North Sea billions
You would have to look hard to find the thin black line that keeps Scotland moving - a pipeline
buried between Cruden Bay and Grangemouth. We start to notice it only when it is switched off, and learn it has been steam-driven all these years. For a two-day strike, not only are the unions getting lots of bang for their strike-pay buck, but the consequences have forced us to ask some big questions about an industry located somewhere over the North Sea horizon.
Who is responsible for keeping the oil flowing? What right have workers to "hold the nation's economy to ransom" over pension changes that many of us have had to swallow? Does Britain face a new mood of industrial strife? What right has one company to inflict "economic terrorism" in a cost-cutting drive intended to demonstrate its management machismo to investors, now threatening not to put their money into the nation's most important industrial plant?
How come we are so dependent on oil? What are we going to do when the forecourts dry up more often, or prices spiral out of reach? Is this a mild taster of a lifestyle that will sharply cut commuter, shopping and food miles?
But this is not all about expecting oil to become more scarce, expensive and politically combustible. It also reflects on how we came to this point with an industry out of sight and mind. In his recent A History of Modern Britain, Andrew Marr argued that North Sea oil is one of the "most remarkable and under-discussed" stories in Britain's recent history. Here was an engineering feat at the frontier of technology greater than anything since Victorians built the railways - "an epic tale of technical skills, bold finance, endurance and individual courage".
Yet where, he asks, is the museum to show the achievements of the industry? Moreover, there are few physical signs of such a mighty economic force. Foreign crude fields may have nodding pumps and extravagant corporate HQs where oil barons flaunt their wealth, but in Scotland there are precious few heroes to tell the story. Sir Ian Wood quietly built a global business round it, but that's about it.
So what legacy is here? In Scotland, you can find a monument to those who died aboard the Piper Alpha 20 years ago. There are further memories of the roustabouts, helicopter pilots and divers who risked, and too often lost, their lives at the frontier of offshore technology.
You might also find a legacy of engineering know-how in Aberdeen, or Heriot-Watt University expertise in extraction from depleting reservoirs. But in Nigg, Ardersier, Methil, Loch Kishorn and Arnish, where the boom in jacket construction came and went Klondyke-style, the hardware floated away and the yards went quiet.
More demanding construction work was done elsewhere, because the boom arrived when British industry was least prepared to handle it. That is the other side of the rarely told story of North Sea oil. Here was a windfall for Britain as prices began to soar and surpass all expectations: the numbers can boggle. The Forties pipeline daily carries black gold worth £50m, with half that revenue bound for the Treasury. It takes only 17 days to fund the Holyrood building, or four months for this year's Scottish Government budget.
Yet Andrew Marr's trawl of political biographies found hardly any mention of North Sea oil. Perhaps it was too embarrassing to admit where the cash was going. This was not a windfall being spent, as in other oil-rich nations from Norway to Abu Dhabi, on trust funds that give permanent returns and are currently trawling globally for assets. British politicians chose to spend it on funding a massive transition in Britain's economy, paying for dole queues while industries collapsed in the 1980s. The point has not been lost on Scottish Nationalists. It was not lost, either, on civil servants in 1974, when they wrote in confidence that the oil boom should be played down because of what it could do to break up Britain.
With oil prices now soaring, the production peak may be past, but the value is not. The Nationalist case can be made that Scotland should have kept all the benefits for itself, though it makes you wonder if it would have been used to avoid necessary change in the industrial base? Thatcherites might argue that the 1980s transition was money well spent. But it is not only Nationalists who think this
one-off windfall should have been invested for the future.
Instead, we watch a squabble at Grangemouth over the sharing of the remaining spoils between workers and bosses. This may signal a future of North Sea decline, as ageing kit has to be broken up while pollution is minimised. Shell learned the hard way when its Brent Spar plans attracted international protest. No wonder the forecourt majors are trimming their Scottish operations, with BP out of Grangemouth and avoiding the reputational damage that seems to hold no fear for Ineos.
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Posted by: MrC, Kelvinbridge on 9:38pm Mon 28 Apr 08
Yes. Indeed. A missed opportunity. Perhaps if Mr. Fraser's colleague Alf Young had had some principle back in the day, the money could have been wisely invested by an independent Scotland and we may have had a better country.
Yes. Indeed. A missed opportunity. Perhaps if Mr. Fraser's colleague Alf Young had had some principle back in the day, the money could have been wisely invested by an independent Scotland and we may have had a better country.
Posted by: Innes on 10:05pm Mon 28 Apr 08
well, Fraser might have mentioned the powerful book on the misuse of North Sea oil by SNP MSP Chris Harvie. Written with real academic depth and detail, its a painful read, especially when he gets into what Norway did with it by comparison. It was published in 1995 and its called [italic]Fool's Gold[/italic].
Andrew Marr by contrast is not a historian, or even a politician, just a lightweight selfpromoting unionist meejahoor. oops. But still, Fraser's counterfactual point about the old heavy industries is reasonable (if pointless & irrelevant) while the point about the Norwegian investment fund is germane.
well, Fraser might have mentioned the powerful book on the misuse of North Sea oil by SNP MSP Chris Harvie. Written with real academic depth and detail, its a painful read, especially when he gets into what Norway did with it by comparison. It was published in 1995 and its called
Fool's Gold.
Andrew Marr by contrast is not a historian, or even a politician, just a lightweight selfpromoting unionist meejahoor. oops. But still, Fraser's counterfactual point about the old heavy industries is reasonable (if pointless & irrelevant) while the point about the Norwegian investment fund is germane.
Posted by: Buchan Loon, Aberdeenshire on 10:38pm Mon 28 Apr 08
Why the reluctance to compare John Hutton's performance with Alex Salmond's? It's the diffference between an apologist and a visionary. But marks to Douglas for a bit of soul searching. Scotch mist is great opportunities for Scotland missed.
Why the reluctance to compare John Hutton's performance with Alex Salmond's? It's the diffference between an apologist and a visionary. But marks to Douglas for a bit of soul searching. Scotch mist is great opportunities for Scotland missed.
Posted by: John Leven, Leven Fife on 11:38pm Mon 28 Apr 08
One of the reasons BP bailed out of Grangemouth was that Browne bet the company on Russia, and had to sell the north sea assets to fund it.
Part of the Forties field is now owned by an American company called Apache, Grangemouth by Ineos as we know to our cost.
What other country would allow their strategic assets to be sold off to the highest bidder like this and then get their pocket money back, only Scotland with their tame press and the English Broadcasting Corporation, North British Branch. What other country has gutless complacent journalists, who see nothing and report nothing.
Maybe these companies buy peerages or seats in the House of Lords.
We may be in a state at present, but there is still far more value in the North Sea, that we can, should and must protect for the future of Scotland.
Scots for 150years have traveled thousands of miles in the past to get a better life for their families. At the next general election Scots only have to travel a s far as the nearest polling station to secure a better life for their families.
Will you walk half a mile and vote for your children and your grandchildren?
One of the reasons BP bailed out of Grangemouth was that Browne bet the company on Russia, and had to sell the north sea assets to fund it.
Part of the Forties field is now owned by an American company called Apache, Grangemouth by Ineos as we know to our cost.
What other country would allow their strategic assets to be sold off to the highest bidder like this and then get their pocket money back, only Scotland with their tame press and the English Broadcasting Corporation, North British Branch. What other country has gutless complacent journalists, who see nothing and report nothing.
Maybe these companies buy peerages or seats in the House of Lords.
We may be in a state at present, but there is still far more value in the North Sea, that we can, should and must protect for the future of Scotland.
Scots for 150years have traveled thousands of miles in the past to get a better life for their families. At the next general election Scots only have to travel a s far as the nearest polling station to secure a better life for their families.
Will you walk half a mile and vote for your children and your grandchildren?
Posted by: Ranting Rab, Carluke on 12:08am Tue 29 Apr 08
It might be Scotland's oil, or not, but it has been P1ssed against the wall (Hadrian;s?) by westminster. Neither Scotland nor England nor Wales even have anything to show!
No Sovereign Investment Fund! Nada! Zilch! SFA!
Be proud Gordon Brown! Even Quisling had some honour!
It might be Scotland's oil, or not, but it has been P1ssed against the wall (Hadrian;s?) by westminster. Neither Scotland nor England nor Wales even have anything to show!
No Sovereign Investment Fund! Nada! Zilch! SFA!
Be proud Gordon Brown! Even Quisling had some honour!
Posted by: sailingbuy on 12:36am Tue 29 Apr 08
this is just a rare shaft of light by fraser
back to default setting tomorrow please douglas you more country to sell down river
this is just a rare shaft of light by fraser
back to default setting tomorrow please douglas you more country to sell down river
Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 12:38am Tue 29 Apr 08
burkahs and kilts!
white satin and westminister!
muslims and scots!
chips on both shoulders
united in same mindsets!
ps:
sorry to all muslims for comparing with scots.
burkahs and kilts!
white satin and westminister!
muslims and scots!
chips on both shoulders
united in same mindsets!
ps:
sorry to all muslims for comparing with scots.
Posted by: exile, far away on 12:43am Tue 29 Apr 08
IQ of 8, go away!
Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 12:48am Tue 29 Apr 08
[quote][bold]exile[/bold] wrote:
IQ of 8, go away![/quote] from your tag it seems you have, I wonder why?
exile wrote:
IQ of 8, go away!
from your tag it seems you have, I wonder why?
Posted by: Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 8:34am Tue 29 Apr 08
Why the tone of this article that all the oil wealth is gone and it is museum time. The UKOOA – offshore oil operators – estimate there is as much oil to come from the North Sea as has been taken out over last thirty years. At $100-$200 bbl, Scotland still has a huge financial resource to benefit from and there is still the Western Hebrides Rockall Shelf to develop. We can still create a sovereign investment fund like Norway with $300 billion in its fund.
London –Tax haven of the World - has proven its money management skills – Sovereign Investment Funds – Zero with bankrupt banking and Non-Doms enjoying tax free offshore earnings while the rest of the country struggles with the Brown’s falsified inflation of 2% with soaring fuel, food and withdrawing mortgages while our soldiers in Afghanistan are short of food, ammo and helicopter support – while a royal prince junkets swans around with his party set on a Chinook helicopter.
The reckoning is nigh.
Why the tone of this article that all the oil wealth is gone and it is museum time. The UKOOA – offshore oil operators – estimate there is as much oil to come from the North Sea as has been taken out over last thirty years. At $100-$200 bbl, Scotland still has a huge financial resource to benefit from and there is still the Western Hebrides Rockall Shelf to develop. We can still create a sovereign investment fund like Norway with $300 billion in its fund.
London –Tax haven of the World - has proven its money management skills – Sovereign Investment Funds – Zero with bankrupt banking and Non-Doms enjoying tax free offshore earnings while the rest of the country struggles with the Brown’s falsified inflation of 2% with soaring fuel, food and withdrawing mortgages while our soldiers in Afghanistan are short of food, ammo and helicopter support – while a royal prince junkets swans around with his party set on a Chinook helicopter.
The reckoning is nigh.
Posted by: GML, right here on 10:00am Tue 29 Apr 08
A question for Wendy and Douglas Alexander, and their boss Gordon Brown:
Do you believe that if Scotland had become independent in 1979, enjoying the oil revenues detailed at the time in the McCrone report, and avoiding the worst excesses of Thatcher's forced deindustrialisation, that Paisley would be worse off than it is now, or better off than it is now? How about Kirkcaldy?
Here is a clue: did you notice that the oil revenue pays for the Scottish Parliament's entire budget in four months?
And did you catch on to the fact that there is at least as much left in the ground in pound note terms as has been produced to date?
But it would never do to put the interests of your constituents before the interest of the Labour Party in London and your own careers, would it?
A question for Wendy and Douglas Alexander, and their boss Gordon Brown:
Do you believe that if Scotland had become independent in 1979, enjoying the oil revenues detailed at the time in the McCrone report, and avoiding the worst excesses of Thatcher's forced deindustrialisation, that Paisley would be worse off than it is now, or better off than it is now? How about Kirkcaldy?
Here is a clue: did you notice that the oil revenue pays for the Scottish Parliament's entire budget in four months?
And did you catch on to the fact that there is at least as much left in the ground in pound note terms as has been produced to date?
But it would never do to put the interests of your constituents before the interest of the Labour Party in London and your own careers, would it?
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 11:13am Tue 29 Apr 08
8/11:
Get back to the looney bin before they start sending out the search party!
8/11:
Get back to the looney bin before they start sending out the search party!
Posted by: teamdroid on 11:39am Tue 29 Apr 08
Douglas, go ask Alf Young and his ilk, about how many copies of the Herald (ostensibly a newspaper for well-educated, thinking people), are sold in Glasgow's East End these days.
Then muse on how many copies would be being sold today, if oil investment had been able to clear those slums and educate the population. Norway's second-biggest selling newspaper is Aftenposten, their main broadsheet. circulation is over 3 times The Herlads. Not surprising in one of the world's best-educated countries.
The most pathetic thing about Unionists is how they have, over the past 20 years, cut off all our noses to spite their own face.
Douglas, go ask Alf Young and his ilk, about how many copies of the Herald (ostensibly a newspaper for well-educated, thinking people), are sold in Glasgow's East End these days.
Then muse on how many copies would be being sold today, if oil investment had been able to clear those slums and educate the population. Norway's second-biggest selling newspaper is Aftenposten, their main broadsheet. circulation is over 3 times The Herlads. Not surprising in one of the world's best-educated countries.
The most pathetic thing about Unionists is how they have, over the past 20 years, cut off all our noses to spite their own face.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 12:50pm Tue 29 Apr 08
What this dispute highlights is how the English economy is dependent on North Sea Oil, and how greedy the UK government, London based companies and British unions have been in feeding on this natural resource. They are still fighting over it.
Scotland lost out on this bonanza because Scots of that generation believed the Westminster lies and completely lacked any self-belief. Scots have now an opportunity to claim their inheritance, that was stolen from them by the English Treasury, and to make a real difference to their lives and that of their families.
This is the Last Chance Saloon, we will only have ourselves to blame if we fail.
What this dispute highlights is how the English economy is dependent on North Sea Oil, and how greedy the UK government, London based companies and British unions have been in feeding on this natural resource. They are still fighting over it.
Scotland lost out on this bonanza because Scots of that generation believed the Westminster lies and completely lacked any self-belief. Scots have now an opportunity to claim their inheritance, that was stolen from them by the English Treasury, and to make a real difference to their lives and that of their families.
This is the Last Chance Saloon, we will only have ourselves to blame if we fail.
Posted by: rob4i, Scottish Borders on 4:15pm Tue 29 Apr 08
"consumes 11% of social security".....Take a hike to oblivion you self-serving Unionist westminster-loving W@NKER!!!
"consumes 11% of social security".....Take a hike to oblivion you self-serving Unionist westminster-loving W@NKER!!!
Posted by: Globaltraveller, Scotland on 3:06pm Wed 30 Apr 08
[quote]Yet Andrew Marr's trawl of political biographies found hardly any mention of North Sea oil.[/quote]
The autobiography of Nigel Lawson mentions the importance of North Sea Oil to the mid-Thatcherite era, when he saw it as one of the better performing parts of the UK Economy. Back then, North Sea oil was seen as something successful that could be milked. And milked, it most certainly was - accouting for around 10% of government income.
Indeed it has been said, I think by Andrew Marr himself, that the subsidy of Scottish North Sea revenue was the "great drip-feed of Thatcherism", without which, the Great Lady's "reforms" would not have been possible.
Yet Andrew Marr's trawl of political biographies found hardly any mention of North Sea oil.
The autobiography of Nigel Lawson mentions the importance of North Sea Oil to the mid-Thatcherite era, when he saw it as one of the better performing parts of the UK Economy. Back then, North Sea oil was seen as something successful that could be milked. And milked, it most certainly was - accouting for around 10% of government income.
Indeed it has been said, I think by Andrew Marr himself, that the subsidy of Scottish North Sea revenue was the "great drip-feed of Thatcherism", without which, the Great Lady's "reforms" would not have been possible.
Posted by: John Hancock, Edinburgh on 4:35pm Wed 30 Apr 08
When one thinks of the vastness of the contribution that Scotland has made and continues to make to the United Kingdom not least in terms of the wealth from North Sea oil resources, it is difficult to continue to tolerate the all too common English taunt that Scotland is dependent on England.
To date we have allowed England to get away with daylight robbery, and we are clearly not respected for it. Best to acknowledge that we have foolishly let ourselves be ripped off. It is our fault. We let them do it to us. We have only ourselves to blame.
I well remember the claim of UK government ministers in the 1970s that the SNP didn't care twopence about England. Well, I think that England cannot be said now not to have had its share of the oil. Scotland, if it becomes independent, can legitimately claim its entitlement with a clear conscience. We have given England the lion's share. We have been generous. We should now just take the bit that's left, although further sharing of the resources could presumably be agreed to for old times' sake on terms not disadvantageous to Scotland.
Norway looked beautiful and prosperous to me in the 1970s. Scotland seemed more in need of benefiting from North Sea oil. It still does. It is time to do something about this at last before it is too late. It is time.
When one thinks of the vastness of the contribution that Scotland has made and continues to make to the United Kingdom not least in terms of the wealth from North Sea oil resources, it is difficult to continue to tolerate the all too common English taunt that Scotland is dependent on England.
To date we have allowed England to get away with daylight robbery, and we are clearly not respected for it. Best to acknowledge that we have foolishly let ourselves be ripped off. It is our fault. We let them do it to us. We have only ourselves to blame.
I well remember the claim of UK government ministers in the 1970s that the SNP didn't care twopence about England. Well, I think that England cannot be said now not to have had its share of the oil. Scotland, if it becomes independent, can legitimately claim its entitlement with a clear conscience. We have given England the lion's share. We have been generous. We should now just take the bit that's left, although further sharing of the resources could presumably be agreed to for old times' sake on terms not disadvantageous to Scotland.
Norway looked beautiful and prosperous to me in the 1970s. Scotland seemed more in need of benefiting from North Sea oil. It still does. It is time to do something about this at last before it is too late. It is time.
Posted by: Old Tam, Glasgow on 8:12pm Wed 30 Apr 08
[quote][bold]John Hancock[/bold] wrote:
When one thinks of the vastness of the contribution that Scotland has made and continues to make to the United Kingdom not least in terms of the wealth from North Sea oil resources, it is difficult to continue to tolerate the all too common English taunt that Scotland is dependent on England. To date we have allowed England to get away with daylight robbery, and we are clearly not respected for it. Best to acknowledge that we have foolishly let ourselves be ripped off. It is our fault. We let them do it to us. We have only ourselves to blame. I well remember the claim of UK government ministers in the 1970s that the SNP didn't care twopence about England. Well, I think that England cannot be said now not to have had its share of the oil. Scotland, if it becomes independent, can legitimately claim its entitlement with a clear conscience. We have given England the lion's share. We have been generous. We should now just take the bit that's left, although further sharing of the resources could presumably be agreed to for old times' sake on terms not disadvantageous to Scotland. Norway looked beautiful and prosperous to me in the 1970s. Scotland seemed more in need of benefiting from North Sea oil. It still does. It is time to do something about this at last before it is too late. It is time.[/quote] Thing is John, obviously it will run out one day, but until then the price just keeps going up. We can't allow the argument to become: there is little left so let's just forget about it.
John Hancock wrote:
When one thinks of the vastness of the contribution that Scotland has made and continues to make to the United Kingdom not least in terms of the wealth from North Sea oil resources, it is difficult to continue to tolerate the all too common English taunt that Scotland is dependent on England. To date we have allowed England to get away with daylight robbery, and we are clearly not respected for it. Best to acknowledge that we have foolishly let ourselves be ripped off. It is our fault. We let them do it to us. We have only ourselves to blame. I well remember the claim of UK government ministers in the 1970s that the SNP didn't care twopence about England. Well, I think that England cannot be said now not to have had its share of the oil. Scotland, if it becomes independent, can legitimately claim its entitlement with a clear conscience. We have given England the lion's share. We have been generous. We should now just take the bit that's left, although further sharing of the resources could presumably be agreed to for old times' sake on terms not disadvantageous to Scotland. Norway looked beautiful and prosperous to me in the 1970s. Scotland seemed more in need of benefiting from North Sea oil. It still does. It is time to do something about this at last before it is too late. It is time.
Thing is John, obviously it will run out one day, but until then the price just keeps going up. We can't allow the argument to become: there is little left so let's just forget about it.
Posted by: JBlackley, Florida on 9:09pm Wed 30 Apr 08
What troubles me about the nationalist argument is still the assumption that, were Scotland to become independent, the Westminster government would simply and willingly hand over control of the North Sea oil revenues.
I can't understand why anyone would make that assumption.
What troubles me about the nationalist argument is still the assumption that, were Scotland to become independent, the Westminster government would simply and willingly hand over control of the North Sea oil revenues.
I can't understand why anyone would make that assumption.
Posted by: Old Tam, Glasgow on 9:33pm Wed 30 Apr 08
[quote][bold]JBlackley[/bold] wrote:
What troubles me about the nationalist argument is still the assumption that, were Scotland to become independent, the Westminster government would simply and willingly hand over control of the North Sea oil revenues. I can't understand why anyone would make that assumption.[/quote] Westminster would lose control of the oil by law and the physical fact that the Forties pipeline runs through Scotland - and even in the unlikely event that we get no oil it would still be better than being presented as scroungers. Loads of countries took independence and had no oil and don't regret it. I believe in the ability of people in Scotland to make things better when they are given control over their own country. For now, we are kept in a state of dependency and ignorance.
JBlackley wrote:
What troubles me about the nationalist argument is still the assumption that, were Scotland to become independent, the Westminster government would simply and willingly hand over control of the North Sea oil revenues. I can't understand why anyone would make that assumption.
Westminster would lose control of the oil by law and the physical fact that the Forties pipeline runs through Scotland - and even in the unlikely event that we get no oil it would still be better than being presented as scroungers. Loads of countries took independence and had no oil and don't regret it. I believe in the ability of people in Scotland to make things better when they are given control over their own country. For now, we are kept in a state of dependency and ignorance.
Posted by: Graham, Larbert - Scotland / Kazakhstan on 9:17am Fri 2 May 08
[quote][bold]John Leven[/bold] wrote:
One of the reasons BP bailed out of Grangemouth was that Browne bet the company on Russia, and had to sell the north sea assets to fund it. Part of the Forties field is now owned by an American company called Apache, Grangemouth by Ineos as we know to our cost. What other country would allow their strategic assets to be sold off to the highest bidder like this and then get their pocket money back, only Scotland with their tame press and the English Broadcasting Corporation, North British Branch. What other country has gutless complacent journalists, who see nothing and report nothing. Maybe these companies buy peerages or seats in the House of Lords. We may be in a state at present, but there is still far more value in the North Sea, that we can, should and must protect for the future of Scotland. Scots for 150years have traveled thousands of miles in the past to get a better life for their families. At the next general election Scots only have to travel a s far as the nearest polling station to secure a better life for their families. Will you walk half a mile and vote for your children and your grandchildren?[/quote] I agree with you here John. Myself and many other Scots are out here working in the "Oil game" to keep our wife and children back home.
In Kazakhstan the Government, such as it is, keeps a very close eye on things, and makes sure its people are well looked after while working for the oil companies. eg Health care, housing loans, childrens holidays and much more.
In the seventies I dont remember "North sea workers" or their families getting any of the above, from the Americans et al.
The Douglas Fraser article however mentions mostly the past, I would sugest our political incumbants better try and not let more future opertunities slip slide away again, to Englandshire.
Also I've made dam sure my postal vote is organised !
Who is building a LNG plant in Scotland ? Why not ? When will ?
Why are they only in South of England and Wales ?
As our family is Scottish, I will cast my vote for my children.
John Leven wrote:
One of the reasons BP bailed out of Grangemouth was that Browne bet the company on Russia, and had to sell the north sea assets to fund it. Part of the Forties field is now owned by an American company called Apache, Grangemouth by Ineos as we know to our cost. What other country would allow their strategic assets to be sold off to the highest bidder like this and then get their pocket money back, only Scotland with their tame press and the English Broadcasting Corporation, North British Branch. What other country has gutless complacent journalists, who see nothing and report nothing. Maybe these companies buy peerages or seats in the House of Lords. We may be in a state at present, but there is still far more value in the North Sea, that we can, should and must protect for the future of Scotland. Scots for 150years have traveled thousands of miles in the past to get a better life for their families. At the next general election Scots only have to travel a s far as the nearest polling station to secure a better life for their families. Will you walk half a mile and vote for your children and your grandchildren?
I agree with you here John. Myself and many other Scots are out here working in the "Oil game" to keep our wife and children back home.
In Kazakhstan the Government, such as it is, keeps a very close eye on things, and makes sure its people are well looked after while working for the oil companies. eg Health care, housing loans, childrens holidays and much more.
In the seventies I dont remember "North sea workers" or their families getting any of the above, from the Americans et al.
The Douglas Fraser article however mentions mostly the past, I would sugest our political incumbants better try and not let more future opertunities slip slide away again, to Englandshire.
Also I've made dam sure my postal vote is organised !
Who is building a LNG plant in Scotland ? Why not ? When will ?
Why are they only in South of England and Wales ?
As our family is Scottish, I will cast my vote for my children.
Posted by: Globaltraveller, Scotland on 11:20pm Fri 2 May 08
[quote][bold]JBlackley[/bold] wrote:
What troubles me about the nationalist argument is still the assumption that, were Scotland to become independent, the Westminster government would simply and willingly hand over control of the North Sea oil revenues.
I can't understand why anyone would make that assumption.[/quote] Two reasons;
(1) International Law
(2) United Kingdom Government Law.
(1) is the most obvious given the delineation of the maritime zones of independent states. Should their be any dispute (and their shouldn't be - no-one with any intelligence would not put the overwhelming majority of the oil resource in anything but Scottish waters - LOOK AT A MAP FFS!!!) then the ICJ in The Hague would be the neutral arbitrar in any dispute.
(2) is rather interesting. The UK Government already has laws in place delineating the maritime boundaries of England and Scotland for the purposes of administering Scottish and English law in their various sectors. The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 are the two main pieces of legislation - you can Google them and read about them.
(2) would be a bit of a non-sequitur in a subsequent court action (should their be one between Scotland v rUK on maritime assets). The fact such delineation already exists (and follows internationally agreed principles) undermines any case rUK could hope to initiate on the matter.
Therefore there isn't any option for the rUK Government.
Its not so much as handing over control of oil revenues, as abiding by their own laws, their own precedents and much, much more importantly international law, custom and practice.
JBlackley wrote:
What troubles me about the nationalist argument is still the assumption that, were Scotland to become independent, the Westminster government would simply and willingly hand over control of the North Sea oil revenues.
I can't understand why anyone would make that assumption.
Two reasons;
(1) International Law
(2) United Kingdom Government Law.
(1) is the most obvious given the delineation of the maritime zones of independent states. Should their be any dispute (and their shouldn't be - no-one with any intelligence would not put the overwhelming majority of the oil resource in anything but Scottish waters - LOOK AT A MAP FFS!!!) then the ICJ in The Hague would be the neutral arbitrar in any dispute.
(2) is rather interesting. The UK Government already has laws in place delineating the maritime boundaries of England and Scotland for the purposes of administering Scottish and English law in their various sectors. The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 are the two main pieces of legislation - you can Google them and read about them.
(2) would be a bit of a non-sequitur in a subsequent court action (should their be one between Scotland v rUK on maritime assets). The fact such delineation already exists (and follows internationally agreed principles) undermines any case rUK could hope to initiate on the matter.
Therefore there isn't any option for the rUK Government.
Its not so much as handing over control of oil revenues, as abiding by their own laws, their own precedents and much, much more importantly international law, custom and practice.
