We in the west will pay for our complicity with China
The world's biggest building, designed like a monster dragon, opens tomorrow. Needless to say, it is in China and it is an airport terminal. The new Beijing Airport building is bigger than all Heathrow's terminals - including the new Terminal Five - put together.
There are 300 check-in desks. There are 40 miles of luggage-carrying conveyor belts. The car park has space for 7000 vehicles. The construction incorporates more than 500,000 tonnes of steel. The building houses 64 restaurants. More than 50,000 workers were involved with the project, which was completed within four years. Before too long - certainly by 2011 - the terminal will process 90 million passengers a year. Within days, Beijing will be in the elite league of busiest airports, joining Heathrow, Atlanta and Chicago O'Hare.
And that is just one building. Cascades of statistics point to China's remarkable growth. Over the next decade, it will build 100 new airports. One estimate suggested that, on average, it was completing a new power station every four days.
There is obviously a dark side to these statistics. China is a polluter on a mega-scale. It is the world's biggest consumer of coal, and the biggest importer of illegally logged timber. Precious water is being diverted from outlying areas to Beijing for the forthcoming Olympics. Hydro-power projects threaten the livelihoods of millions of peasants.
Basic human rights are being systematically abused. The Chinese state executes at least 10,000 people a year. Amnesty International can provide a plethora of statistics pointing to the pervasive use of torture by the state, and the widespread detention of dissidents. The Falun Gong religious sect has been brutally repressed.
Despite this, there is courageous dissent. Four years ago I saw a brilliant film by the independent film-maker Li Yang. Called Blind Shaft, shamefully it was shown on very limited release in Britain. Despite being acted by amateurs, it was an unforgettably powerful exposé of the grotesque conditions in the unregulated coalmines of northern China, where thousands die every year.
China has an increasingly prosperous middle class, but they are to be found on the coastal strip, where most of the expansion is concentrated. To the north and the west there are conditions of appalling poverty and degradation. A few years ago, an official of the World Bank told me there would be a civil war in China. It has not happened yet, and at present I'd bet against it, but internal disparities and tensions are growing almost as fast as the economy.
If the Chinese regime found itself in real trouble internally, it might do what precarious governments often do - start expanding aggressively overseas. Apart from the disgraceful occupation of Tibet, China has so far been remarkably restrained in terms of foreign adventurism and military posturing, for such an expansionist economy. Taiwan is a constant danger. If the Chinese make a move there, the US administration - of whatever colour - will respond immediately. And Sino-Japanese relations remain at best acutely strained, a legacy of the Second World War, when the Japanese committed atrocity after atrocity on mainland China. More civilians died in that specific conflict than in any other country.
China is already practising non-military expansion, trawling through Africa and elsewhere for oil and other resources. Notoriously, it is a leading purchaser of Sudanese oil, and the principal supplier of military ordnance to Sudan's government. Darfur stains China as much as it does Sudan.
Yet we in the west cannot take a high moral line on any of this - the growing pollution, the disdain for human rights, the crushing of dissent. We are complicit in so much of it, not least because we continue to rely so heavily on the endless factories of this vast and enigmatic country. We consume Chinese goods because they are cheap; we do not worry about their provenance.
And who designed that dragon-shaped terminal? The British architect Norman Foster. The lead contractor was the British-based construction company Arup.
This summer, hundreds of British sportsmen will travel to China for the Olympics. Their participation cannot be divorced from the efforts of the Chinese regime to showcase the event for its own ends. Of course, the Games will be irredeemably tainted - but will that deter millions of television viewers in Britain, willing on our heroes and heroines for the (very) occasional medal?
If we are to take a moral line of any credibility, we must boycott the Olympics, stop outsourcing our manufacturing to China and refuse to purchase Chinese goods. Some chance. I once told my daughter that her grandchildren will in be in some kind of servitude, most probably economic, to the coming powerhouses of China, India and Brazil. She didn't believe me then, but she is beginning to believe me now.
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Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 12:18am Thu 28 Feb 08
Harry is very right. Saddam was a charmer compared to these jokers - to whom mass murder, torture, the execution of criminals in order to obtain body parts, etc, is second nature. Our complicity is not only stupid, but criminal.
Harry is very right. Saddam was a charmer compared to these jokers - to whom mass murder, torture, the execution of criminals in order to obtain body parts, etc, is second nature. Our complicity is not only stupid, but criminal.
Posted by: weegie, Glasgow on 2:22am Thu 28 Feb 08
With their large surplus they can do serious damage to any nation which challenges them.
"A candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long"
With their large surplus they can do serious damage to any nation which challenges them.
"A candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long"
Posted by: Sigismund, at David Ferguson's bit on 3:32am Thu 28 Feb 08
[bold]To the north and the west there are conditions of appalling poverty and degradation...[/bold]
I am willing to bet every penny I own that Harry Reid has never once set foot in the north of China. I have lived here for two years and have never yet, in all my travels, seen any instance of 'appalling poverty and degradation'. There are plenty of people who are still hard up, but they all appear to have a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, fuel to keep out the cold, plenty of food on the table, a decent school for their kids, and most importantly, prospects of a better future.
[quote]internal disparities and tensions are growing almost as fast as the economy...[/quote]
What a load of utter, total, drivelling bullshit.
To the north and the west there are conditions of appalling poverty and degradation...
I am willing to bet every penny I own that Harry Reid has never once set foot in the north of China. I have lived here for two years and have never yet, in all my travels, seen any instance of 'appalling poverty and degradation'. There are plenty of people who are still hard up, but they all appear to have a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, fuel to keep out the cold, plenty of food on the table, a decent school for their kids, and most importantly, prospects of a better future.
internal disparities and tensions are growing almost as fast as the economy...
What a load of utter, total, drivelling bullshit.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 4:07am Thu 28 Feb 08
You sound quite unfamiliar and rediculars with China as follows:
1, When you say "China is a polluter on a mega-scale", you forgot to mention 35% of pollution was for the export production to USA and Europe. You have nothing to nag because the plants should have originally been in your country ;
2,. When you say "Hydro-power projects threaten the livelihoods of millions of peasants", you overlooked the fact that they were also benefit billion people;
3, When you say "The Chinese state executes at least 10,000 people a year", you were simply turning yourself into rumour-monger, considering you even know Amnesty International;
4, The film "Blind Shaft" is not acted by amateurs as you say, but by professional actors named Li Yixiang and Wang Baoqiang who are quite famous in China;
Last thing: You dont need to worry for the future of China as World Bank official told you about a civil war in China, since 90% of Chinese are happy with the government which has brought an average 10% GDP in last 30 years reform and a good life they have never ever enjoyed in Chinese history . Even with a free election, the Chinese Communist Party will win.
You sound quite unfamiliar and rediculars with China as follows:
1, When you say "China is a polluter on a mega-scale", you forgot to mention 35% of pollution was for the export production to USA and Europe. You have nothing to nag because the plants should have originally been in your country ;
2,. When you say "Hydro-power projects threaten the livelihoods of millions of peasants", you overlooked the fact that they were also benefit billion people;
3, When you say "The Chinese state executes at least 10,000 people a year", you were simply turning yourself into rumour-monger, considering you even know Amnesty International;
4, The film "Blind Shaft" is not acted by amateurs as you say, but by professional actors named Li Yixiang and Wang Baoqiang who are quite famous in China;
Last thing: You dont need to worry for the future of China as World Bank official told you about a civil war in China, since 90% of Chinese are happy with the government which has brought an average 10% GDP in last 30 years reform and a good life they have never ever enjoyed in Chinese history . Even with a free election, the Chinese Communist Party will win.
Posted by: Boabby, Vancouver Island on 5:32am Thu 28 Feb 08
Nearly all of the hullabaloo about China"'s civil rights record, particularly in recent ntimes, has more to do with protectionism than any genuine concern for the well being of the people of China. Even the outcry about paint on kid's toys made in China was encouraged for the same reason; tainted with sheer hypocrisy. Sure---it was wrong to export such items , but anyone who has a memory knows that it has been a fairly short time since kids toys---and more---were made in our own country, and the USA, with the same lead paint. The main problem stems from the fact that Chinese -made goods are flooding the world markets, and are being found by the public to be cheap, and usually of a decent quality. Go into any hardware store and check the "made in----" tag----you will be amazed.
Nearly all of the hullabaloo about China"'s civil rights record, particularly in recent ntimes, has more to do with protectionism than any genuine concern for the well being of the people of China. Even the outcry about paint on kid's toys made in China was encouraged for the same reason; tainted with sheer hypocrisy. Sure---it was wrong to export such items , but anyone who has a memory knows that it has been a fairly short time since kids toys---and more---were made in our own country, and the USA, with the same lead paint. The main problem stems from the fact that Chinese -made goods are flooding the world markets, and are being found by the public to be cheap, and usually of a decent quality. Go into any hardware store and check the "made in----" tag----you will be amazed.
Posted by: IJ on 1:20pm Thu 28 Feb 08
China's entry into international affairs in a big way will be interesting to behold. China and Britain share an interest - clarifying property rights.
China's foreign policy priority is that everyone recognises Taiwan is part of China. In the same way Britain wants unquestioned recognition that the Falklands Islands belongs to it. Territorial ownership is such a fraught matter, as Kosovo is showing.
China's entry into international affairs in a big way will be interesting to behold. China and Britain share an interest - clarifying property rights.
China's foreign policy priority is that everyone recognises Taiwan is part of China. In the same way Britain wants unquestioned recognition that the Falklands Islands belongs to it. Territorial ownership is such a fraught matter, as Kosovo is showing.
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 11:01pm Thu 28 Feb 08
[[italic]quote], since 90% of Chinese are happy with the government which has brought an average 10% GDP in last 30 years reform[/quote][/italic]
What an absolutely fascinating insight from behind the Bamboo Curtain - and nice to see that the country's scrupulous suppression of the press, and the internet, does not apparently extend to The Herald. Delightful to find that 90% of Chinese are "happy", and only mildly surprising to find that it is not 100 or even 110%! I wonder if the ten per cent who are presumably not happy are in fact citizens of illegally occupied and brutalised Tibet?
, since 90% of Chinese are happy with the government which has brought an average 10% GDP in last 30 years reform
What an absolutely fascinating insight from behind the Bamboo Curtain - and nice to see that the country's scrupulous suppression of the press, and the internet, does not apparently extend to The Herald. Delightful to find that 90% of Chinese are "happy", and only mildly surprising to find that it is not 100 or even 110%! I wonder if the ten per cent who are presumably not happy are in fact citizens of illegally occupied and brutalised Tibet?
Posted by: Victor Vien, Canada on 12:11am Fri 29 Feb 08
[quote][italic]gao hong:
"Even with a free election, the Chinese Communist Party will win."[/italic]
[/quote]
.......
I laughed so hard on this one. Is this conclusion come from a survey with those "90% of Chinese " that "are happy with the government" ? Or is it just because the Communist Party say so?
gao hong:
"Even with a free election, the Chinese Communist Party will win."
.......
I laughed so hard on this one. Is this conclusion come from a survey with those "90% of Chinese " that "are happy with the government" ? Or is it just because the Communist Party say so?
Posted by: Sigismund on 1:32am Fri 29 Feb 08
Victor Vien I promise you that if you ever actually come to China you'll find that they're just normal people like everywhere else in the world I've ever been. The stuff about them strangling Christians and eating babies and the like is just crap.
Victor Vien I promise you that if you ever actually come to China you'll find that they're just normal people like everywhere else in the world I've ever been. The stuff about them strangling Christians and eating babies and the like is just crap.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 2:52am Fri 29 Feb 08
To Myrmillo, Batavadorum
"if the ten per cent who are presumably not happy are in fact citizens of illegally occupied and brutalised Tibet?"
You are deadly wrong about Tibetens who are much happier than the serf time of Dalai Lama because they can enjoy now Hollywood movies and Coca Cola from USA as you gloriously do and about Tibet which had a 6.5% GDP growth in 2007, by simply dream of which you would think of dumpping your own government that is only good at launching war to the weakest.
To Myrmillo, Batavadorum
"if the ten per cent who are presumably not happy are in fact citizens of illegally occupied and brutalised Tibet?"
You are deadly wrong about Tibetens who are much happier than the serf time of Dalai Lama because they can enjoy now Hollywood movies and Coca Cola from USA as you gloriously do and about Tibet which had a 6.5% GDP growth in 2007, by simply dream of which you would think of dumpping your own government that is only good at launching war to the weakest.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 3:12am Fri 29 Feb 08
To Victor Vien, Canada
you said "90% of Chinese are happy ...because the Communist Party say so".
Do you think that an average 10% GDP in 30 years can be done by "unhappy people" and your poor 2% GDP was by contrary by the happest?
Communist Party doesnt say so. The thing you failed to understand is Chinese Communist is actually not communist any longer. Failure to catch that fact makes you enjoy the spoonfeeding by Fax and CNN and blind to the truth of a real China.
To Victor Vien, Canada
you said "90% of Chinese are happy ...because the Communist Party say so".
Do you think that an average 10% GDP in 30 years can be done by "unhappy people" and your poor 2% GDP was by contrary by the happest?
Communist Party doesnt say so. The thing you failed to understand is Chinese Communist is actually not communist any longer. Failure to catch that fact makes you enjoy the spoonfeeding by Fax and CNN and blind to the truth of a real China.
Posted by: Duncan Brown, Ipswich, Suffolk on 7:43am Fri 29 Feb 08
Whatever anyone thinks of China is neither here nor there. Old Imperialist perceptions and modern scaremongering isn't going to make China-or India- go away. All the worlds a stage and China a leading actor, enjoy the unfolding drama. Who knows we may yet be enlightened and delighted by the East.
Whatever anyone thinks of China is neither here nor there. Old Imperialist perceptions and modern scaremongering isn't going to make China-or India- go away. All the worlds a stage and China a leading actor, enjoy the unfolding drama. Who knows we may yet be enlightened and delighted by the East.
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 3:48pm Fri 29 Feb 08
Gao Hong: You are absolutely correct about the despicable former Blair government, which launched a lunatic and illegal war in Iraq.
The big difference between your country and mine is this: I am free to criticise - you are not. I have freedom of access to information and communication - you must think what your government tells you to, or risk arrest, torture, imprisonment and possibly execution. My country does not assassinate protesting students: yours did, at Tianamen Square. Only when you face up to these stark realities can you hope for China to join the civilised world: lacking fundamental human rights, no matter how much money you make you will remain "serfs". You must also come to terms with your country's appalling crimes in Tibet - where people, as any reliable news channel will tell you, are very far from being "happy". I feel very sad for you if you think that "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" are the height of civilisation and luxury: Coca Cola makes fat Americans more rich, and Hollywood films are (largely) utter garbage for people of no intelligence. You would do better to dwell on the amazing vibrancy of infinitely superior modern Chinese cinema - and think how stupendous it could be if Chinese film-makers lived in a free country. I hope you continue to tune in to the free press in the free world - but take care: nobody on these web boards wants you to run the risk of imprisonment or worse for looking at sites made illegal by your political masters.
As for Duncan Brown, above - it isn't "scaremongering" to make a frank acknowledgement of China's many crimes against humanity and its desperate record on human rights. You can ignore it if you like - I choose not to. China is certainly a leading actor - but she badly needs a radically new script.
Gao Hong: You are absolutely correct about the despicable former Blair government, which launched a lunatic and illegal war in Iraq.
The big difference between your country and mine is this: I am free to criticise - you are not. I have freedom of access to information and communication - you must think what your government tells you to, or risk arrest, torture, imprisonment and possibly execution. My country does not assassinate protesting students: yours did, at Tianamen Square. Only when you face up to these stark realities can you hope for China to join the civilised world: lacking fundamental human rights, no matter how much money you make you will remain "serfs". You must also come to terms with your country's appalling crimes in Tibet - where people, as any reliable news channel will tell you, are very far from being "happy". I feel very sad for you if you think that "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" are the height of civilisation and luxury: Coca Cola makes fat Americans more rich, and Hollywood films are (largely) utter garbage for people of no intelligence. You would do better to dwell on the amazing vibrancy of infinitely superior modern Chinese cinema - and think how stupendous it could be if Chinese film-makers lived in a free country. I hope you continue to tune in to the free press in the free world - but take care: nobody on these web boards wants you to run the risk of imprisonment or worse for looking at sites made illegal by your political masters.
As for Duncan Brown, above - it isn't "scaremongering" to make a frank acknowledgement of China's many crimes against humanity and its desperate record on human rights. You can ignore it if you like - I choose not to. China is certainly a leading actor - but she badly needs a radically new script.
Posted by: Duncan Brown, Ipswich, Suffolk on 6:18pm Fri 29 Feb 08
Myrmillo,
I' not entirely in disagreement with some of your comments on both Britain' and China's performance on the world stage.
The point I was making is that isolationism and avoidance is probably not the best way to effect change for the better.
Myrmillo,
I' not entirely in disagreement with some of your comments on both Britain' and China's performance on the world stage.
The point I was making is that isolationism and avoidance is probably not the best way to effect change for the better.
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 10:24pm Fri 29 Feb 08
That's a fair point, Duncan - and it isn't easy to nag your neighbour when, as in the UK's case, we are complicit in mass murder in Iraq (whatever the local successes hard-won by British troops).
Perhaps the Olympics hold the key after all: the world's spotlight will be on China as seldom before, and every major country represented: the exposure of Chinese people to the "free world" (I accept this is a relative term) could hasten the momentum for democratic change.
I'll be rooting for the Tibetan athletes, however, even if they are competing only in a country of the mind: having seen the Dalai Lama in action during his visit to Glasgow I am in no doubt who really rules Tibet - and it isn't Beijing.
That's a fair point, Duncan - and it isn't easy to nag your neighbour when, as in the UK's case, we are complicit in mass murder in Iraq (whatever the local successes hard-won by British troops).
Perhaps the Olympics hold the key after all: the world's spotlight will be on China as seldom before, and every major country represented: the exposure of Chinese people to the "free world" (I accept this is a relative term) could hasten the momentum for democratic change.
I'll be rooting for the Tibetan athletes, however, even if they are competing only in a country of the mind: having seen the Dalai Lama in action during his visit to Glasgow I am in no doubt who really rules Tibet - and it isn't Beijing.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 2:45am Sat 1 Mar 08
To Myrmillo, Batavadorum
1,“I am free to criticise and have freedom of access to information and communication”. In China there are over 5500 newpaper and magazines, 90% of which are not government controlled and which criticise a lot daily and over 110 million Chinese netizens with access to information online too. ( you are so naive to think of the risk of imprisonment for Chinese looking at sites, lol!). Meanwhile what is the use of your freedom to criticise if you cannot stop Blaire from raping Iraq and the use of your freedom to information while you are the last in the world to realize Blaire is a liar?
2, “No matter how much money you make you will remain "serfs"? If you think serf instead of “happy people” can make 10%GDP for 30 year years running, I wish you a happy man with your envious 2%GDP. From a man with such a logice, I can only expect you to think Dalai’s serdom make Tibetens happier. I assure you one thing: I was in Tibet 3 times, unlike what you imagine, every Tibeten want to have a cars.
3, “My country does not assassinate protesting students”? China government did mistake or even crime, exactly like Britain does. I hope you were sane enough to make a humble body-count of Iraq. Difference is your army only bravely kill foreign people
4, As to "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" thing, I just said it as satire to some westerners who always blame Chinese for ruinning the British were more humorous.
Last, seems you are interested in Chinese modern day culture. Try google Fang Lijun and Yue Minjun, two of the most contemporary artists whose works auctioned millions in Sothby and Christie. You’ll find all painted faces are smiling. Once asked why by BBC in HK, they said Chinese were indeed smiling and happy.
To Myrmillo, Batavadorum
1,“I am free to criticise and have freedom of access to information and communication”. In China there are over 5500 newpaper and magazines, 90% of which are not government controlled and which criticise a lot daily and over 110 million Chinese netizens with access to information online too. ( you are so naive to think of the risk of imprisonment for Chinese looking at sites, lol!). Meanwhile what is the use of your freedom to criticise if you cannot stop Blaire from raping Iraq and the use of your freedom to information while you are the last in the world to realize Blaire is a liar?
2, “No matter how much money you make you will remain "serfs"? If you think serf instead of “happy people” can make 10%GDP for 30 year years running, I wish you a happy man with your envious 2%GDP. From a man with such a logice, I can only expect you to think Dalai’s serdom make Tibetens happier. I assure you one thing: I was in Tibet 3 times, unlike what you imagine, every Tibeten want to have a cars.
3, “My country does not assassinate protesting students”? China government did mistake or even crime, exactly like Britain does. I hope you were sane enough to make a humble body-count of Iraq. Difference is your army only bravely kill foreign people
4, As to "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" thing, I just said it as satire to some westerners who always blame Chinese for ruinning the British were more humorous.
Last, seems you are interested in Chinese modern day culture. Try google Fang Lijun and Yue Minjun, two of the most contemporary artists whose works auctioned millions in Sothby and Christie. You’ll find all painted faces are smiling. Once asked why by BBC in HK, they said Chinese were indeed smiling and happy.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 2:49am Sat 1 Mar 08
To Myrmillo, Batavadorum
1,“I am free to criticise and have freedom of access to information and communication”. In China there are over 5500 newpaper and magazines, 90% of which are not government controlled and which criticise a lot daily and over 110 million Chinese netizens with access to information online too. ( you are so naive to think of the risk of imprisonment for Chinese looking at sites, lol!). Meanwhile what is the use of your freedom to criticise if you cannot stop Blaire from raping Iraq and the use of your freedom to information while you are the last in the world to realize Blaire is a liar?
2, “No matter how much money you make you will remain "serfs"? If you think serf instead of “happy people” can make 10%GDP for 30 year years running, I wish you a happy man with your envious 2%GDP. From a man with such a logice, I can only expect you to think Dalai’s serdom make Tibetens happier. I assure you one thing: I was in Tibet 3 times, unlike what you imagine, every Tibeten want to have a cars.
3, “My country does not assassinate protesting students”? China government did mistake or even crime, exactly like Britain does. I hope you were sane enough to make a humble body-count of Iraq. Difference is your army only bravely kill foreign people
4, As to "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" thing, I just said it as satire to some westerners who always blame Chinese for ruinning the British were more humorous.
Last, seems you are interested in Chinese modern day culture. Try google Fang Lijun and Yue Minjun, two of the most contemporary artists whose works auctioned millions in Sothby and Christie. You’ll find all painted faces are smiling. Once asked why by BBC in HK, they said Chinese were indeed smiling and happy.
To Myrmillo, Batavadorum
1,“I am free to criticise and have freedom of access to information and communication”. In China there are over 5500 newpaper and magazines, 90% of which are not government controlled and which criticise a lot daily and over 110 million Chinese netizens with access to information online too. ( you are so naive to think of the risk of imprisonment for Chinese looking at sites, lol!). Meanwhile what is the use of your freedom to criticise if you cannot stop Blaire from raping Iraq and the use of your freedom to information while you are the last in the world to realize Blaire is a liar?
2, “No matter how much money you make you will remain "serfs"? If you think serf instead of “happy people” can make 10%GDP for 30 year years running, I wish you a happy man with your envious 2%GDP. From a man with such a logice, I can only expect you to think Dalai’s serdom make Tibetens happier. I assure you one thing: I was in Tibet 3 times, unlike what you imagine, every Tibeten want to have a cars.
3, “My country does not assassinate protesting students”? China government did mistake or even crime, exactly like Britain does. I hope you were sane enough to make a humble body-count of Iraq. Difference is your army only bravely kill foreign people
4, As to "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" thing, I just said it as satire to some westerners who always blame Chinese for ruinning the British were more humorous.
Last, seems you are interested in Chinese modern day culture. Try google Fang Lijun and Yue Minjun, two of the most contemporary artists whose works auctioned millions in Sothby and Christie. You’ll find all painted faces are smiling. Once asked why by BBC in HK, they said Chinese were indeed smiling and happy.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 2:59am Sat 1 Mar 08
4, As to "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" thing, I just said it as satire to some westerners who always blame Chinese for ruinning the Tibeten culture. Actually its useless to blame for anybody since it's economy and globalization. And I thouhgt British were more humorous. : )
4, As to "Hollywood films and Coca Cola" thing, I just said it as satire to some westerners who always blame Chinese for ruinning the Tibeten culture. Actually its useless to blame for anybody since it's economy and globalization. And I thouhgt British were more humorous. : )
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 11:03am Sat 1 Mar 08
Greetings, Gao Hong. Of your various points, above, I agree totally with number 3: however on number 1 we were far from being the last in the world to realise that Blair is a liar - worse than a liar, he was also a vain and deluded fool who yearned for military glory while acting as a poodle to his master George Bush. I and many other people believe he should be in prison and have said so (in our free press) many times. I strongly believe that no military action should take place outwith the sanction of the UN; and that the UN, imperfect as it is, was the only legitimate way to deal with Iraq.
Your point about a free Chinese press is, however, simply not true. It's "freedom" depends heavily on a willingness not to attempt to report on the horrific crimes perpetrated by your government in Tibet and elsewhere - and when did you last see an objective Chinese TV documentary on Falun Gong? If you truly believe this, I am afraid you are quite deluded; many Chinese refugees from state oppression take a very different view.
I am worried, too, by your obsession with cars, TVs, Coke, etc: the pursuit of "luxury goods" to the exclusion of humane and accountable government is deeply regrettable: the notion that ANY people are "all smiling and happy" is completelyt preposterous, and an insult to the intelligence - millions of your fellow citizens live in squalor, poverty and fear: as you gain experience of the free world you may begin to appreciate that this is the case. Your point number 4 is extremely silly,and I feel embarrassed for you for making it. If it was "satire", as you claim, it was of the type that does not travel! The illegal Chinese colonisation of Tibet, which is emphatically not, and never has been (nor ever will be) part of China, is disgusting and ongoing crime for which you should feel profound shame. Your claim that "every Tibetan" wants a car is risible - and it is in any case possible to desire a car without being occupied and enslaved by a foreign country. I am certainly interested in Chinese culture, for which I have a deep respect - and one thing my humble studies of Chinese history have taught me is that every tyranny falls in the end: ask yourself, for example, why the Han supplanted the Ch'in. Since you support your corrupt oligarchy so enthusiastically and blindly I take it that your net correspondence is sanctioned and approved by your secret service, and that consequently you are in no danger - but have a thought for your fellow citizens, who would prefer to live in a free society. What fate would befall them if they expressed any of my opinions? What use would their cars and Coca Cola be then?
Greetings, Gao Hong. Of your various points, above, I agree totally with number 3: however on number 1 we were far from being the last in the world to realise that Blair is a liar - worse than a liar, he was also a vain and deluded fool who yearned for military glory while acting as a poodle to his master George Bush. I and many other people believe he should be in prison and have said so (in our free press) many times. I strongly believe that no military action should take place outwith the sanction of the UN; and that the UN, imperfect as it is, was the only legitimate way to deal with Iraq.
Your point about a free Chinese press is, however, simply not true. It's "freedom" depends heavily on a willingness not to attempt to report on the horrific crimes perpetrated by your government in Tibet and elsewhere - and when did you last see an objective Chinese TV documentary on Falun Gong? If you truly believe this, I am afraid you are quite deluded; many Chinese refugees from state oppression take a very different view.
I am worried, too, by your obsession with cars, TVs, Coke, etc: the pursuit of "luxury goods" to the exclusion of humane and accountable government is deeply regrettable: the notion that ANY people are "all smiling and happy" is completelyt preposterous, and an insult to the intelligence - millions of your fellow citizens live in squalor, poverty and fear: as you gain experience of the free world you may begin to appreciate that this is the case. Your point number 4 is extremely silly,and I feel embarrassed for you for making it. If it was "satire", as you claim, it was of the type that does not travel! The illegal Chinese colonisation of Tibet, which is emphatically not, and never has been (nor ever will be) part of China, is disgusting and ongoing crime for which you should feel profound shame. Your claim that "every Tibetan" wants a car is risible - and it is in any case possible to desire a car without being occupied and enslaved by a foreign country. I am certainly interested in Chinese culture, for which I have a deep respect - and one thing my humble studies of Chinese history have taught me is that every tyranny falls in the end: ask yourself, for example, why the Han supplanted the Ch'in. Since you support your corrupt oligarchy so enthusiastically and blindly I take it that your net correspondence is sanctioned and approved by your secret service, and that consequently you are in no danger - but have a thought for your fellow citizens, who would prefer to live in a free society. What fate would befall them if they expressed any of my opinions? What use would their cars and Coca Cola be then?
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 11:21am Sat 1 Mar 08
You may care to read this Associated Press account of what happens to people who dare to tell the truth about your dictators:
http://ap.google.com
/article/ALeqM5gGtTr
BpkUffPzYAENMTtc8HAq
aBgD8V463HG0
You may also care to note that Hollywood's greatest director, Steven Spielberg, has withdrawn his support for the Olympics because of your country's criminal support for the mass-murdering government of Sudan - your allies. Be very ashamed.
You may care to read this Associated Press account of what happens to people who dare to tell the truth about your dictators:
http://ap.google.com
/article/ALeqM5gGtTr
BpkUffPzYAENMTtc8HAq
aBgD8V463HG0
You may also care to note that Hollywood's greatest director, Steven Spielberg, has withdrawn his support for the Olympics because of your country's criminal support for the mass-murdering government of Sudan - your allies. Be very ashamed.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 1:29pm Sun 2 Mar 08
1, Check my word you’ll realize I never said China’s press was free. I only consider you quite funny talking about the “risk of imprisonment for Chinese looking at sites”. Now you make yourself even funnier by thinking my “net correspondence is sanctioned and approved by secret service”. Now it’d my turn to pity you to have seen too much Hollywood cliche, maybe Rambo, even though the Cold War time was long over. I am quite impressed that you don’t feel a fly in your mouth when talking about your” Free world”. How about my lecturing you that UK or USA are not that free as you think. With million CCTV on all corners and your phone tabbed and finger printed at border and a record on your credit card and insurance, your establishment even know the brand of your jersay and your Big Brother is much biggger than China’s
2, You asked me “when did you last see an objective Chinese TV documentary on Falun Gong”? I’d like ask you when did you see an objective WESTERN TV documentary on it? Truth is: Falun Gong is only one of 2500 sects appeared after reform when state loosen up control. It was founded by an army trumpet player who self-claimed to be a living buhda and 95% of its believers are ignorant and poor peasants. The sect leader is only interested in collecting millions of money. I don't blame you standing by him as you think western way “enemy’s enemy is friend”, no matter how ridiculars pair you’d make.
3, As you have ”a humble studies of Chinese history”, I have to make you even more “disgusted” by telling you Tibet is part of China since Han Dynasty, a fact your beloved “freely elected” government recognize and a fact I don't want to argue with you. Oh, I forget once British tried to make it part of India :) by a military invasion of Tibet in last centary.
4, Since your favorate "Hollywood's greatest director" Spielberg, maybe your media didn't feed you, by purpose, has never accepted the title and post of 2008 Olympic Adviser for China, so he had nothing to throw to the face of China.
5, China has never support Sudan government as your media told you. The only thing China did is non-interference foreign policy which Africans feel fair compared with your colony time. China’ll still adheir to the policy though your Miliband asked China a few days ago to” Interfer as a real power”. Like Britain interfered Iraq for its WMD, or shall I call it a “Liberation”?
1, Check my word you’ll realize I never said China’s press was free. I only consider you quite funny talking about the “risk of imprisonment for Chinese looking at sites”. Now you make yourself even funnier by thinking my “net correspondence is sanctioned and approved by secret service”. Now it’d my turn to pity you to have seen too much Hollywood cliche, maybe Rambo, even though the Cold War time was long over. I am quite impressed that you don’t feel a fly in your mouth when talking about your” Free world”. How about my lecturing you that UK or USA are not that free as you think. With million CCTV on all corners and your phone tabbed and finger printed at border and a record on your credit card and insurance, your establishment even know the brand of your jersay and your Big Brother is much biggger than China’s
2, You asked me “when did you last see an objective Chinese TV documentary on Falun Gong”? I’d like ask you when did you see an objective WESTERN TV documentary on it? Truth is: Falun Gong is only one of 2500 sects appeared after reform when state loosen up control. It was founded by an army trumpet player who self-claimed to be a living buhda and 95% of its believers are ignorant and poor peasants. The sect leader is only interested in collecting millions of money. I don't blame you standing by him as you think western way “enemy’s enemy is friend”, no matter how ridiculars pair you’d make.
3, As you have ”a humble studies of Chinese history”, I have to make you even more “disgusted” by telling you Tibet is part of China since Han Dynasty, a fact your beloved “freely elected” government recognize and a fact I don't want to argue with you. Oh, I forget once British tried to make it part of India :) by a military invasion of Tibet in last centary.
4, Since your favorate "Hollywood's greatest director" Spielberg, maybe your media didn't feed you, by purpose, has never accepted the title and post of 2008 Olympic Adviser for China, so he had nothing to throw to the face of China.
5, China has never support Sudan government as your media told you. The only thing China did is non-interference foreign policy which Africans feel fair compared with your colony time. China’ll still adheir to the policy though your Miliband asked China a few days ago to” Interfer as a real power”. Like Britain interfered Iraq for its WMD, or shall I call it a “Liberation”?
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 9:53pm Sun 2 Mar 08
Greetings, my entertainingly sarcastic oriental friend, Gao Hong - I am relieved to hear from you.
1. I was never a big fan of Rambo, which I consider to be a gauche example of the school of magical-realism - a genre exemplified in, for example, that splendid Chinese epic Hero. However I do take your point about creeping Big Brother techniques in the UK - I doubt we're remotely as intrusive and controlling as Red China (or is it pink, now?), but then we're supposed to be a free democracy: I shall take your observation as a salutary wake-up call. At the same time you will appreciate vigilance is required, these days, as sundry gangs of demented Islamist fanatics periodically try to murder as many of us as they can - but of course it is possible to take security so far that it compromises freedom (as in your country): it is a difficult balance to strike, I am sure you will agree.
2. I am not a supporter of Falun Gong and know almost nothing about it: nevertheless I am in no doubt that however mad or stupid you consider it to be it is quite wrong to persecute its followers - as I am utterly convinced that they are being. It strikes me that Falun Gong (and maybe other sects) are not unlike the cults which sprout spontaneously in China in times of great historic stress and crisis - notable the Taipei Rebellion and the so-called Boxer Rebellion (with its Society of the Harmonious Fist): the Yellow Turbans and the Red Eyebrows are two other historic movements which spring to mind , again in connection with periods of rebellion against the status quo.
Notice that "2500" sects didn't "appear", except in the sense that a frog which was previously invisible at the bottom of a well "appears" if he sits in the bucket which is lowered for water and waits to be pulled up (as, I think, a notable T'ang poet said).
3) If Tibet was part of China since the Han Dynasty (ended 220 AD) why did the Mongols have to subdue it 1000 years later? In fact during the formative period of Chinese history (and long, long after the Han), Tibet was a quiet powerful state, larger than at present, and well able to defend itself. I think you may have been relying for your history on government versions? I am frankly shocked at your apparent ignorance of the basics of your own history.
In fact, if you look at the most rudimentary Chinese history
, you will find that Tibet became subject to the Mongols by agreement - not conquest - and that in most senses Tibet remained to all intents and purposes independent. Tibet, prior to the atrocity of the 50's invasion, was subject to China only insofar as China was subject to the Mongols: therefore your argument is preposterous, absurd, risible, and grossly insulting to the culture and heritage of Tibet and the Tibetans - I think you should apologise.
On your lesser point about Britain and Tibet, I think Britain's actions were despicable - almost as much so as in the Opium War: I can't imagine why you expect me to defend the British Empire? However in order to learn from the lessons of history we have to examine truth in the way it is, not through a "magical-realism" version manufactured by the government. As you rightly said before, the criminal Blair lied to his country to take it into an illegal war - the fact that most intelligent people know this, speak and write about it quite openly, is our best insurance that it cannot happen again.
4) Don't try to be clever. Spielberg's gesture was entirely deliberate. I don't think he wanted to insult China - he just didn't want to be complicit in its crime.
5) I agree with the second part. To be quite honest I would be perfectly delighted if almost anybody's army were to remove the Khartoum government, but nobody wants to occupy yet another fanatic-infested wasteland for an indefinite period or purpose: but China could play a valuable role in ending all support - all support - for the people who are effectively enabling mass murder. Incidentally, it's not "my media": it's the international media - the world's media.
Ask yourself this question, honestly: Would murderous bandit militias be slaughtering people and carrying out ethnic cleansing if China had a completely different - ie, moral - relationship with the gang of cut-throats in Khartoum?
This I will say about the empire - the annihalation of the Mahdist state in the Sudan by Britain in 1898 was probably the best thing ever to happen to that benighted country. As with Iraq, it is a cauldron of despair which should have been handled with joint diplomatic endeavour: instead it's a butcher's yard with no hope in sight. I don't think China would be so stupid as to act as Britain has in Iraq - it is the greatest politico-military blunder by the UK since Suez - but I think it could do itself and the world a favour by showing some moral fibre.
You can do that quite easily and still enjoy your cars and Coca-Cola.
Have a nice day.
:
Greetings, my entertainingly sarcastic oriental friend, Gao Hong - I am relieved to hear from you.
1. I was never a big fan of Rambo, which I consider to be a gauche example of the school of magical-realism - a genre exemplified in, for example, that splendid Chinese epic Hero. However I do take your point about creeping Big Brother techniques in the UK - I doubt we're remotely as intrusive and controlling as Red China (or is it pink, now?), but then we're supposed to be a free democracy: I shall take your observation as a salutary wake-up call. At the same time you will appreciate vigilance is required, these days, as sundry gangs of demented Islamist fanatics periodically try to murder as many of us as they can - but of course it is possible to take security so far that it compromises freedom (as in your country): it is a difficult balance to strike, I am sure you will agree.
2. I am not a supporter of Falun Gong and know almost nothing about it: nevertheless I am in no doubt that however mad or stupid you consider it to be it is quite wrong to persecute its followers - as I am utterly convinced that they are being. It strikes me that Falun Gong (and maybe other sects) are not unlike the cults which sprout spontaneously in China in times of great historic stress and crisis - notable the Taipei Rebellion and the so-called Boxer Rebellion (with its Society of the Harmonious Fist): the Yellow Turbans and the Red Eyebrows are two other historic movements which spring to mind , again in connection with periods of rebellion against the status quo.
Notice that "2500" sects didn't "appear", except in the sense that a frog which was previously invisible at the bottom of a well "appears" if he sits in the bucket which is lowered for water and waits to be pulled up (as, I think, a notable T'ang poet said).
3) If Tibet was part of China since the Han Dynasty (ended 220 AD) why did the Mongols have to subdue it 1000 years later? In fact during the formative period of Chinese history (and long, long after the Han), Tibet was a quiet powerful state, larger than at present, and well able to defend itself. I think you may have been relying for your history on government versions? I am frankly shocked at your apparent ignorance of the basics of your own history.
In fact, if you look at the most rudimentary Chinese history
, you will find that Tibet became subject to the Mongols by agreement - not conquest - and that in most senses Tibet remained to all intents and purposes independent. Tibet, prior to the atrocity of the 50's invasion, was subject to China only insofar as China was subject to the Mongols: therefore your argument is preposterous, absurd, risible, and grossly insulting to the culture and heritage of Tibet and the Tibetans - I think you should apologise.
On your lesser point about Britain and Tibet, I think Britain's actions were despicable - almost as much so as in the Opium War: I can't imagine why you expect me to defend the British Empire? However in order to learn from the lessons of history we have to examine truth in the way it is, not through a "magical-realism" version manufactured by the government. As you rightly said before, the criminal Blair lied to his country to take it into an illegal war - the fact that most intelligent people know this, speak and write about it quite openly, is our best insurance that it cannot happen again.
4) Don't try to be clever. Spielberg's gesture was entirely deliberate. I don't think he wanted to insult China - he just didn't want to be complicit in its crime.
5) I agree with the second part. To be quite honest I would be perfectly delighted if almost anybody's army were to remove the Khartoum government, but nobody wants to occupy yet another fanatic-infested wasteland for an indefinite period or purpose: but China could play a valuable role in ending all support - all support - for the people who are effectively enabling mass murder. Incidentally, it's not "my media": it's the international media - the world's media.
Ask yourself this question, honestly: Would murderous bandit militias be slaughtering people and carrying out ethnic cleansing if China had a completely different - ie, moral - relationship with the gang of cut-throats in Khartoum?
This I will say about the empire - the annihalation of the Mahdist state in the Sudan by Britain in 1898 was probably the best thing ever to happen to that benighted country. As with Iraq, it is a cauldron of despair which should have been handled with joint diplomatic endeavour: instead it's a butcher's yard with no hope in sight. I don't think China would be so stupid as to act as Britain has in Iraq - it is the greatest politico-military blunder by the UK since Suez - but I think it could do itself and the world a favour by showing some moral fibre.
You can do that quite easily and still enjoy your cars and Coca-Cola.
Have a nice day.
:
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 10:16pm Sun 2 Mar 08
"Feel a fly in my mouth" - I hadn't heard that one before: quite like it.
"Feel a fly in my mouth" - I hadn't heard that one before: quite like it.
Posted by: Somnamna, Far East on 1:20am Mon 3 Mar 08
Myrmilla 0 - Gao Hong 3 (Myrmilla OG 3)
(Myrmillo sent off in the 87th minute for second yellow card for abusive language - "my sarcastic oriental friend")
Myrmilla 0 - Gao Hong 3 (Myrmilla OG 3)
(Myrmillo sent off in the 87th minute for second yellow card for abusive language - "my sarcastic oriental friend")
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 3:49am Mon 3 Mar 08
1, I have no objection to your agreeing “security compromises freedom” concerning your Bigger Brother thing. Chinese is actually doing the same: developing China stronger under a stable social condition and have “freedom” later when we, well, sorry to open your old wound, after overpassing UK in 2002, will overpass Germany in 2008, then Japan in 2010. I only hope the west media could stop pointing fingers while it itseft still need a meter-long toilet paper. Time’s long passed when west still has moral high ground.
2. As you tried hard to show your knowledge about Chinese history, such as Yellow Turbans and the Red Eyebrows, even Taipin and Boxer Rebellion, I wish you could understand the reason China crack down Falun Gong and its peasant followers. Maybe the main reason is China hate to be invaded with its Summer Palace rubbed and burnt down by 8-state army again. :)
3) If you think Tibet should be independent only because it became subject to the Mongols while China was subject to the Mongols too then, you are telling me Northeast China should also be independent since it used to be home of Manchu.
I’d like to test your feeling by telling you N. Iriland is not part of UK or Basque not to Spain or Quebec not to Canada. I don't need to apologise since I am happy China is not Serbia. Tibet is never a sovergn state, recogized by nobody ever incl. Brititain. Even Dalai the former serf-master and biggest landerlord of Tibet, who used to be vice chairman of China Political Consultative Committee in Beijing in 50’, is not seeking independent from China.
4, Spielberg's gesture was entirely a show like every Hollywood celebrities do. There are a big group of foreign advisers for 2008 Olympic, while he is not one of them at all from very beginning. He is just an opportunitist. If all are blaming China for all bad things, why not me? A insult or not, Chinese, under influrence of Confucias, while keeping low profile, don't complain to the mistreatment and don’t explain to the misunderstanding. We don't give a dm.
5, As to China’s interfering role in no matter where, Sudan or Burma, I think West is expecting too much. China has its own business to do, to be strong as never before so that no hostile power will interfer us like Iraq and bully us like 100 years ago. That’s also why I told you Chinese are happy, because they support the government. (you’ll be happy too if you suported Blaire year ago : ) ) Chinese suffered enough from foreign power and will not do the same to other weak countries, never, even under the inspiration and instruction by your Miliband.
1, I have no objection to your agreeing “security compromises freedom” concerning your Bigger Brother thing. Chinese is actually doing the same: developing China stronger under a stable social condition and have “freedom” later when we, well, sorry to open your old wound, after overpassing UK in 2002, will overpass Germany in 2008, then Japan in 2010. I only hope the west media could stop pointing fingers while it itseft still need a meter-long toilet paper. Time’s long passed when west still has moral high ground.
2. As you tried hard to show your knowledge about Chinese history, such as Yellow Turbans and the Red Eyebrows, even Taipin and Boxer Rebellion, I wish you could understand the reason China crack down Falun Gong and its peasant followers. Maybe the main reason is China hate to be invaded with its Summer Palace rubbed and burnt down by 8-state army again. :)
3) If you think Tibet should be independent only because it became subject to the Mongols while China was subject to the Mongols too then, you are telling me Northeast China should also be independent since it used to be home of Manchu.
I’d like to test your feeling by telling you N. Iriland is not part of UK or Basque not to Spain or Quebec not to Canada. I don't need to apologise since I am happy China is not Serbia. Tibet is never a sovergn state, recogized by nobody ever incl. Brititain. Even Dalai the former serf-master and biggest landerlord of Tibet, who used to be vice chairman of China Political Consultative Committee in Beijing in 50’, is not seeking independent from China.
4, Spielberg's gesture was entirely a show like every Hollywood celebrities do. There are a big group of foreign advisers for 2008 Olympic, while he is not one of them at all from very beginning. He is just an opportunitist. If all are blaming China for all bad things, why not me? A insult or not, Chinese, under influrence of Confucias, while keeping low profile, don't complain to the mistreatment and don’t explain to the misunderstanding. We don't give a dm.
5, As to China’s interfering role in no matter where, Sudan or Burma, I think West is expecting too much. China has its own business to do, to be strong as never before so that no hostile power will interfer us like Iraq and bully us like 100 years ago. That’s also why I told you Chinese are happy, because they support the government. (you’ll be happy too if you suported Blaire year ago : ) ) Chinese suffered enough from foreign power and will not do the same to other weak countries, never, even under the inspiration and instruction by your Miliband.
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 1:48pm Mon 3 Mar 08
1. Thankyou. This is your first admission that you do not have freedom – in any of the usual senses of the word – now. I hope this frank declaration does not get you into trouble with your authorities: they will surely see that it was but a momentary slip.
I cannot agree that your progress towards freedom should be dependant upon your financial performance vis-à-vis Japan: by that time the wealth gap between bloated “have’s” and millions of “have-nots” will have grown exponentially, fuelling revolt, disorder, and in turn further repression. You will be aware of the adage “a stitch in time”. It isn’t the “west’s” media which is pointing the finger but the entire civilized world – not least Amnesty International, whose 2007 report catalogues a shocking litany of basic violations of human rights – from Tibet, where it remains highly dangerous to own even a picture of the Dalai Lama; to the repression of the Uighurs, to the execution of alleged criminals by lethal injection in order to obtain body parts. Again, I stress, you are judged in the court of international opinion, and are found guilty. You cannot keep the lid on this state of affairs forever – and the world will certainly not tolerate another Tianamen massacre: therefore something will have to give.
2. I wasn’t trying terribly hard. What I did do – quite effortlessly – was reveal in a few lines your apparent complete ignorance of your own history, far less Tibet’s. Five centuries or more after you postulate that China annexed Tibet a Tibetan army occupied Beijing and briefly declared a new emperor there! Back in the 8th century you were losing, my friend – not winning! Thanks, too, for your frank admission that China is “cracking down” (repressing, with attendant torture) Falun Gong – as it has with countless Buddhists, democrats, etc, etc.
3. That was not my point. My point is that China has NEVER ruled Tibet, and that Tibet was, is, and will remain a discrete nation (which is obvious to the meanest intelligence), and no more a part of China than Manchukuo was a part of Japan. Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK so long as its electors decide that this will be the case – and no longer. Your point here is what we call “a red herring”. China is not Serbia, true, but some of her actions are redolent of those of the Serbians at their worst. It does you no credit to insult the Dalai Lama, when your government has ruled that Buddhists must honour a puppet Dalai who is laughed to scorn by the entire international Buddhist community. I doubt His Holiness is bothered by your insults, which only serve to reveal the depths of your fear and loathing.
4. Aha! So first it is terrific to be able to see Hollywood films, but now its leading director is a mere “opportunist”. I agree, however, with your assertion that you “don’t give a ****” – a classic Hollywood line (from Gone With The Wind).
In fact China’s propensity not to “give a ****” about the legitimate concerns of the international community is rather the point of the argument. I promise you, you will most certainly “give a ****” by the time the Olympics is finished – the Bamboo Curtain will be torn aside, and the world will see your criminal government for what it is. So – in increasing numbers – will your own people.
5. So let me get this right: China is perfectly content to “interfere” in Tibet, a country which it annexed amid much violence and which it continues to occupy with repression, censorship and fear, but has no useful role to play in the Sudan (its ally), Burma, or anywhere else? What a very curious foreign policy. Nobody expects you to follow Milliband’s suggestions – you could actually evolve a moral course of action entirely on your own initiative: it is quite possible, even at this late stage. Your continued assertions that “Chinese are happy” is at variance with the irrefutable facts about the realities of life for millions of Chinese in every reliable (ie, not yours) media source on the planet. That you, an admirer of your dictators, are happy, I do not doubt: this does not however confer “happiness” on several hundred million of your compatriots. Believe it or not, they have minds of their own. So might you – one day.
1. Thankyou. This is your first admission that you do not have freedom – in any of the usual senses of the word – now. I hope this frank declaration does not get you into trouble with your authorities: they will surely see that it was but a momentary slip.
I cannot agree that your progress towards freedom should be dependant upon your financial performance vis-à-vis Japan: by that time the wealth gap between bloated “have’s” and millions of “have-nots” will have grown exponentially, fuelling revolt, disorder, and in turn further repression. You will be aware of the adage “a stitch in time”. It isn’t the “west’s” media which is pointing the finger but the entire civilized world – not least Amnesty International, whose 2007 report catalogues a shocking litany of basic violations of human rights – from Tibet, where it remains highly dangerous to own even a picture of the Dalai Lama; to the repression of the Uighurs, to the execution of alleged criminals by lethal injection in order to obtain body parts. Again, I stress, you are judged in the court of international opinion, and are found guilty. You cannot keep the lid on this state of affairs forever – and the world will certainly not tolerate another Tianamen massacre: therefore something will have to give.
2. I wasn’t trying terribly hard. What I did do – quite effortlessly – was reveal in a few lines your apparent complete ignorance of your own history, far less Tibet’s. Five centuries or more after you postulate that China annexed Tibet a Tibetan army occupied Beijing and briefly declared a new emperor there! Back in the 8th century you were losing, my friend – not winning! Thanks, too, for your frank admission that China is “cracking down” (repressing, with attendant torture) Falun Gong – as it has with countless Buddhists, democrats, etc, etc.
3. That was not my point. My point is that China has NEVER ruled Tibet, and that Tibet was, is, and will remain a discrete nation (which is obvious to the meanest intelligence), and no more a part of China than Manchukuo was a part of Japan. Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK so long as its electors decide that this will be the case – and no longer. Your point here is what we call “a red herring”. China is not Serbia, true, but some of her actions are redolent of those of the Serbians at their worst. It does you no credit to insult the Dalai Lama, when your government has ruled that Buddhists must honour a puppet Dalai who is laughed to scorn by the entire international Buddhist community. I doubt His Holiness is bothered by your insults, which only serve to reveal the depths of your fear and loathing.
4. Aha! So first it is terrific to be able to see Hollywood films, but now its leading director is a mere “opportunist”. I agree, however, with your assertion that you “don’t give a ****” – a classic Hollywood line (from Gone With The Wind).
In fact China’s propensity not to “give a ****” about the legitimate concerns of the international community is rather the point of the argument. I promise you, you will most certainly “give a ****” by the time the Olympics is finished – the Bamboo Curtain will be torn aside, and the world will see your criminal government for what it is. So – in increasing numbers – will your own people.
5. So let me get this right: China is perfectly content to “interfere” in Tibet, a country which it annexed amid much violence and which it continues to occupy with repression, censorship and fear, but has no useful role to play in the Sudan (its ally), Burma, or anywhere else? What a very curious foreign policy. Nobody expects you to follow Milliband’s suggestions – you could actually evolve a moral course of action entirely on your own initiative: it is quite possible, even at this late stage. Your continued assertions that “Chinese are happy” is at variance with the irrefutable facts about the realities of life for millions of Chinese in every reliable (ie, not yours) media source on the planet. That you, an admirer of your dictators, are happy, I do not doubt: this does not however confer “happiness” on several hundred million of your compatriots. Believe it or not, they have minds of their own. So might you – one day.
1. Thankyou. This is your first admission that you do not have freedom – in any of the usual senses of the word – now. I hope this frank declaration does not get you into trouble with your authorities: they will surely see that it was but a momentary slip.
I cannot agree that your progress towards freedom should be dependant upon your financial performance vis-à-vis Japan: by that time the wealth gap between bloated “have’s” and millions of “have-nots” will have grown exponentially, fuelling revolt, disorder, and in turn further repression. You will be aware of the adage “a stitch in time”. It isn’t the “west’s” media which is pointing the finger but the entire civilized world – not least Amnesty International, whose 2007 report catalogues a shocking litany of basic violations of human rights – from Tibet, where it remains highly dangerous to own even a picture of the Dalai Lama; to the repression of the Uighurs, to the execution of alleged criminals by lethal injection in order to obtain body parts. Again, I stress, you are judged in the court of international opinion, and are found guilty. You cannot keep the lid on this state of affairs forever – and the world will certainly not tolerate another Tianamen massacre: therefore something will have to give.
2. I wasn’t trying terribly hard. What I did do – quite effortlessly – was reveal in a few lines your apparent complete ignorance of your own history, far less Tibet’s. Five centuries or more after you postulate that China annexed Tibet a Tibetan army occupied Beijing and briefly declared a new emperor there! Back in the 8th century you were losing, my friend – not winning! Thanks, too, for your frank admission that China is “cracking down” (repressing, with attendant torture) Falun Gong – as it has with countless Buddhists, democrats, etc, etc.
3. That was not my point. My point is that China has NEVER ruled Tibet, and that Tibet was, is, and will remain a discrete nation (which is obvious to the meanest intelligence), and no more a part of China than Manchukuo was a part of Japan. Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK so long as its electors decide that this will be the case – and no longer. Your point here is what we call “a red herring”. China is not Serbia, true, but some of her actions are redolent of those of the Serbians at their worst. It does you no credit to insult the Dalai Lama, when your government has ruled that Buddhists must honour a puppet Dalai who is laughed to scorn by the entire international Buddhist community. I doubt His Holiness is bothered by your insults, which only serve to reveal the depths of your fear and loathing.
4. Aha! So first it is terrific to be able to see Hollywood films, but now its leading director is a mere “opportunist”. I agree, however, with your assertion that you “don’t give a ****” – a classic Hollywood line (from Gone With The Wind).
In fact China’s propensity not to “give a ****” about the legitimate concerns of the international community is rather the point of the argument. I promise you, you will most certainly “give a ****” by the time the Olympics is finished – the Bamboo Curtain will be torn aside, and the world will see your criminal government for what it is. So – in increasing numbers – will your own people.
5. So let me get this right: China is perfectly content to “interfere” in Tibet, a country which it annexed amid much violence and which it continues to occupy with repression, censorship and fear, but has no useful role to play in the Sudan (its ally), Burma, or anywhere else? What a very curious foreign policy. Nobody expects you to follow Milliband’s suggestions – you could actually evolve a moral course of action entirely on your own initiative: it is quite possible, even at this late stage. Your continued assertions that “Chinese are happy” is at variance with the irrefutable facts about the realities of life for millions of Chinese in every reliable (ie, not yours) media source on the planet. That you, an admirer of your dictators, are happy, I do not doubt: this does not however confer “happiness” on several hundred million of your compatriots. Believe it or not, they have minds of their own. So might you – one day.
1. Thankyou. This is your first admission that you do not have freedom – in any of the usual senses of the word – now. I hope this frank declaration does not get you into trouble with your authorities: they will surely see that it was but a momentary slip.
I cannot agree that your progress towards freedom should be dependant upon your financial performance vis-à-vis Japan: by that time the wealth gap between bloated “have’s” and millions of “have-nots” will have grown exponentially, fuelling revolt, disorder, and in turn further repression. You will be aware of the adage “a stitch in time”. It isn’t the “west’s” media which is pointing the finger but the entire civilized world – not least Amnesty International, whose 2007 report catalogues a shocking litany of basic violations of human rights – from Tibet, where it remains highly dangerous to own even a picture of the Dalai Lama; to the repression of the Uighurs, to the execution of alleged criminals by lethal injection in order to obtain body parts. Again, I stress, you are judged in the court of international opinion, and are found guilty. You cannot keep the lid on this state of affairs forever – and the world will certainly not tolerate another Tianamen massacre: therefore something will have to give.
2. I wasn’t trying terribly hard. What I did do – quite effortlessly – was reveal in a few lines your apparent complete ignorance of your own history, far less Tibet’s. Five centuries or more after you postulate that China annexed Tibet a Tibetan army occupied Beijing and briefly declared a new emperor there! Back in the 8th century you were losing, my friend – not winning! Thanks, too, for your frank admission that China is “cracking down” (repressing, with attendant torture) Falun Gong – as it has with countless Buddhists, democrats, etc, etc.
3. That was not my point. My point is that China has NEVER ruled Tibet, and that Tibet was, is, and will remain a discrete nation (which is obvious to the meanest intelligence), and no more a part of China than Manchukuo was a part of Japan. Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK so long as its electors decide that this will be the case – and no longer. Your point here is what we call “a red herring”. China is not Serbia, true, but some of her actions are redolent of those of the Serbians at their worst. It does you no credit to insult the Dalai Lama, when your government has ruled that Buddhists must honour a puppet Dalai who is laughed to scorn by the entire international Buddhist community. I doubt His Holiness is bothered by your insults, which only serve to reveal the depths of your fear and loathing.
4. Aha! So first it is terrific to be able to see Hollywood films, but now its leading director is a mere “opportunist”. I agree, however, with your assertion that you “don’t give a ****” – a classic Hollywood line (from Gone With The Wind).
In fact China’s propensity not to “give a ****” about the legitimate concerns of the international community is rather the point of the argument. I promise you, you will most certainly “give a ****” by the time the Olympics is finished – the Bamboo Curtain will be torn aside, and the world will see your criminal government for what it is. So – in increasing numbers – will your own people.
5. So let me get this right: China is perfectly content to “interfere” in Tibet, a country which it annexed amid much violence and which it continues to occupy with repression, censorship and fear, but has no useful role to play in the Sudan (its ally), Burma, or anywhere else? What a very curious foreign policy. Nobody expects you to follow Milliband’s suggestions – you could actually evolve a moral course of action entirely on your own initiative: it is quite possible, even at this late stage. Your continued assertions that “Chinese are happy” is at variance with the irrefutable facts about the realities of life for millions of Chinese in every reliable (ie, not yours) media source on the planet. That you, an admirer of your dictators, are happy, I do not doubt: this does not however confer “happiness” on several hundred million of your compatriots. Believe it or not, they have minds of their own. So might you – one day.
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 1:50pm Mon 3 Mar 08
Apologies for the double posting. Curious and slightly worrying that the word "d(a)mn" is censored!
Apologies for the double posting. Curious and slightly worrying that the word "d(a)mn" is censored!
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 1:55pm Mon 3 Mar 08
[quote]Posted by: Somnamna, Far East on 1:20am today
Myrmilla 0 - Gao Hong 3 (Myrmilla OG 3) (Myrmillo sent off in the 87th minute for second yellow card for abusive language - "my sarcastic oriental friend")
Myrmilla 0 - Gao Hong 3 (Myrmilla OG 3)[/quote]
In your guilty dreams, Somnabulist! Either enter the debate with a proper argument or bugger off.
Posted by: Somnamna, Far East on 1:20am today
Myrmilla 0 - Gao Hong 3 (Myrmilla OG 3) (Myrmillo sent off in the 87th minute for second yellow card for abusive language - "my sarcastic oriental friend")
Myrmilla 0 - Gao Hong 3 (Myrmilla OG 3)
In your guilty dreams, Somnabulist! Either enter the debate with a proper argument or bugger off.
Posted by: gao hong, Beijing on 11:56am Tue 4 Mar 08
My last post and greetings to Myrmillo, Batavadorum:
1, I sure admited we had no freedom, but in a sense that nobody is really free either in West or in China and that you are just a sort of pot calling kettle black. At least we never brand China a “Free World” which you laughably and repeatedly did.
2, Beijing was capital only since 13thcentary in Yuan Dynasty. What’s the sense to occupy it as a sign of Tibeten winning in 8th century? I presume all the history books you read about China are as fancy as cartoon books or as your favorate Hollywood movies.
As to Falun Gong, I like to repeat the word “Crack Down”, to this most reactionary, ignorant and supersticious peasant sect force which almost stopped our reform by an uprising. Who said only you have exclusive right to crack down Muslim extremist whom you nourished before and later consider as thread to society?
3, By telling you what Dalai really is is not an insult to Your Holiness. Here I repeat again: He was master of over 800 serfs and landlord of 13% of land of Lhasa in 40’s and vice chairman of China Political Consultative Conference in 50”s. He has never openly advocated the independence, a pure Western idea. I often wonder why, an eunuch worry for something that even Emperor is not worry about. Want to keep Tibet as an carbon-free int’l park as Dailai trickily promised you when Tibetens also dream of a car?
4, I agree that by the time the Olympics is finished, the world will see our government for what it is, while I disagree that the Bamboo Curtain will be open, because only you think it is still closed.
5, Unlike Britain and your master US believing in Napoleon’s “home is where we are better off”, Chinese who believe in “falling leaves goes back to the root” will not put nose far into other’s affairs like “Ugly American”, even for sake of so–called “human right”, under pretext of which so many crimes are committed by the West. (Were UK soldiers raping hundreds of Kenya women also for human right reason?) On this point, we are grateful you stepped on landmines for us and we learnt a lot from your silliness. Chinese knew much earlier both Bush and your Blaire were liars and sooner or later they had to pay. So why China should follow you to the quargmare while we have no problem seeing US and UK being , well, how the lyric goes? “Oh, boy, you have to carry that weight, for a long time!”
We will always differ, Mr. Myrmillo. Difference is you drank Cola for longer time while we just started to get rid of hunger. All our argument began with a funny article by Mr. Harry Reid which started from a sour grape--The greatest new airport in Beijing ( in fact the old one put in use only 7 years ago is already bigger than your Heathrow) and ended up with such a fairytale of China “ executing over 10,000 each year” and a future civil war. (he forgot to say Chinese are all opium smokers) Hate it or not, a strong China is there to stay, along with 1.3 billion Chinese who also want a share of better life and whom you have to live with, sorry, on the same planet all your life, maybe with another 1 billion Muslim added as well whom you may hate with clenched teeth.
Chinese food is well known. But what if I tell you the dishes served in the London are not Chinese at all? Truth is: it is NOT but a mixture of all stuffs westerners like. If one day a restaurant serve a real Chinese dish, you will all run away. West media just cook such thing for targeted receivers like you who have never tasted reall one.
I wonder if you’ve ever been to China, to be watched by “secret police” and suffocated by “smog” like over 12,000 British living in China? Seeing is believing. I sincerely suggest you come see China with your own eyes and taste real Chinese food with your own tongue. I mocked your CCVT since I was in UK several times, even to Arisaig for a short stay (a place I like best compared with rotten and shabby shanty town London); I was in Tibet too so I know Tibetens also want cars with its remarkable 6.5% DGP, compared with which England look like Albania.
This world would be nicer if people prefer learning, not lecturing, like Bush or Miliband do. As I cannot persuade you that 10%GDP for 30 years cannot be achieved by unhappy people and Tibetens also dream of a modern life, I am glad to have exchanged views and improved my English with you, though your mother tongue under your writing sound pretty tilted. However I am just one of millions hard working Chinese who cannot afford a luxury 2% GDP as you do, since we still have 20 millions peasant under poverty line, though 30 years ago it was 550 millions. So I have to quit. Anyway us Chinese is interested only in last laugh, not in last word.
If any chance meeting Dalai Lama who might visit Glasgow, give my wholehearted regards and tell him my warmest advice: fight hard for his holly cause of independence, from the West. : )
Bye.
Gao Hong, Beijing
My last post and greetings to Myrmillo, Batavadorum:
1, I sure admited we had no freedom, but in a sense that nobody is really free either in West or in China and that you are just a sort of pot calling kettle black. At least we never brand China a “Free World” which you laughably and repeatedly did.
2, Beijing was capital only since 13thcentary in Yuan Dynasty. What’s the sense to occupy it as a sign of Tibeten winning in 8th century? I presume all the history books you read about China are as fancy as cartoon books or as your favorate Hollywood movies.
As to Falun Gong, I like to repeat the word “Crack Down”, to this most reactionary, ignorant and supersticious peasant sect force which almost stopped our reform by an uprising. Who said only you have exclusive right to crack down Muslim extremist whom you nourished before and later consider as thread to society?
3, By telling you what Dalai really is is not an insult to Your Holiness. Here I repeat again: He was master of over 800 serfs and landlord of 13% of land of Lhasa in 40’s and vice chairman of China Political Consultative Conference in 50”s. He has never openly advocated the independence, a pure Western idea. I often wonder why, an eunuch worry for something that even Emperor is not worry about. Want to keep Tibet as an carbon-free int’l park as Dailai trickily promised you when Tibetens also dream of a car?
4, I agree that by the time the Olympics is finished, the world will see our government for what it is, while I disagree that the Bamboo Curtain will be open, because only you think it is still closed.
5, Unlike Britain and your master US believing in Napoleon’s “home is where we are better off”, Chinese who believe in “falling leaves goes back to the root” will not put nose far into other’s affairs like “Ugly American”, even for sake of so–called “human right”, under pretext of which so many crimes are committed by the West. (Were UK soldiers raping hundreds of Kenya women also for human right reason?) On this point, we are grateful you stepped on landmines for us and we learnt a lot from your silliness. Chinese knew much earlier both Bush and your Blaire were liars and sooner or later they had to pay. So why China should follow you to the quargmare while we have no problem seeing US and UK being , well, how the lyric goes? “Oh, boy, you have to carry that weight, for a long time!”
We will always differ, Mr. Myrmillo. Difference is you drank Cola for longer time while we just started to get rid of hunger. All our argument began with a funny article by Mr. Harry Reid which started from a sour grape--The greatest new airport in Beijing ( in fact the old one put in use only 7 years ago is already bigger than your Heathrow) and ended up with such a fairytale of China “ executing over 10,000 each year” and a future civil war. (he forgot to say Chinese are all opium smokers) Hate it or not, a strong China is there to stay, along with 1.3 billion Chinese who also want a share of better life and whom you have to live with, sorry, on the same planet all your life, maybe with another 1 billion Muslim added as well whom you may hate with clenched teeth.
Chinese food is well known. But what if I tell you the dishes served in the London are not Chinese at all? Truth is: it is NOT but a mixture of all stuffs westerners like. If one day a restaurant serve a real Chinese dish, you will all run away. West media just cook such thing for targeted receivers like you who have never tasted reall one.
I wonder if you’ve ever been to China, to be watched by “secret police” and suffocated by “smog” like over 12,000 British living in China? Seeing is believing. I sincerely suggest you come see China with your own eyes and taste real Chinese food with your own tongue. I mocked your CCVT since I was in UK several times, even to Arisaig for a short stay (a place I like best compared with rotten and shabby shanty town London); I was in Tibet too so I know Tibetens also want cars with its remarkable 6.5% DGP, compared with which England look like Albania.
This world would be nicer if people prefer learning, not lecturing, like Bush or Miliband do. As I cannot persuade you that 10%GDP for 30 years cannot be achieved by unhappy people and Tibetens also dream of a modern life, I am glad to have exchanged views and improved my English with you, though your mother tongue under your writing sound pretty tilted. However I am just one of millions hard working Chinese who cannot afford a luxury 2% GDP as you do, since we still have 20 millions peasant under poverty line, though 30 years ago it was 550 millions. So I have to quit. Anyway us Chinese is interested only in last laugh, not in last word.
If any chance meeting Dalai Lama who might visit Glasgow, give my wholehearted regards and tell him my warmest advice: fight hard for his holly cause of independence, from the West. : )
Bye.
Gao Hong, Beijing
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 7:41pm Tue 4 Mar 08
Realise it's your closing statement and so you have to make lots of sweeping assertions backed by little or no evidence. Meanwhile why I may have confused Beijing for Loyang at least I don't (like you) fantasise about the Han (presumably later Han) Dynasty conquering Tibet - something even the People's Liberation Army (ha
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