
Would independence be velvet divorce from UK?
UN peacekeeping forces were moving into position last night as the inhabitants of Berwick declared independence from England. Secessionists are insisting that opinion polls
confirmed that the majority of the population wished to leave at the earliest opportunity and become part of recently-independent Scotland. Amid scenes of jubilation in the border town, there are anxieties about the fate of the remaining
ethnic English still living in the
disputed zone.
The Prime Minister David Miliband said that the Berwick move was "a flagrant and unilateral act of secession by a part of the territory of England and illegal under international law". The British government has reacted with fury to the call of the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, for all "free peoples" to recognise the right of Berwick to self-determination. America has condemned the Berwick Liberation Front as "moral terrorists" and pledged to lend air support if English nationals are
ethnically cleansed from the area. But the European Union has announced it is willing to open a mission in Berwick to ensure there can be a peaceful transition.
All fantasy, of course. Berwick's people are much too sensible to take up arms, even if a majority have, apparently, voted to leave England in a referendum organised by the ITV Tonight programme. However, Kosovo is a sobering reminder of what happens when nationalism gets out of hand. And no, I'm not going to make any facile comparisons between the Scottish National Party and the Kosovan Liberation Army or any other militant nationalist grouping. The SNP is a civic nationalist organisation, dedicated to democracy, which has stamped down hard on anti-
English sectarians. OK?
Mind you, most nationalists would be happy to see Berwick restored to Scotland and SNP MSP Christine Grahame has tabled a motion to the Scottish Parliament calling for Berwick to "return to the fold". It's not inconceivable that, if Scotland were to become formally independent - an eventuality that is no longer being regarded as fantasy in Westminster - there could be genuine border disputes over areas such as Berwick, which "feel" Scottish, even if they have been part of England for 600 years.
It is one of the reasons why Unionist politicians insist that independence would be divisive. No matter how amicable the divorce between England and Scotland might be initially, when it came to dividing the geographical assets tempers could get frayed. The SNP responds that, in Berwick as in Kosovo, you have to give people the right to decide, by majority vote, which country they wish to be part of. The right of free peoples to self-determination is inviolable and enshrined in international law.
True, of course. But who decides who "the people" are? The
Kosovan Albanians may have voted for independence, but Kosovo is still legally part of Serbia, which would vote for the province to remain so - if anyone asked. As
we know from bitter experience
in Northern Ireland, when you
start chopping up states and
handing autonomy to oppressed ethnic groups, they have a nasty habit of becoming the oppressors themselves.
The Serbians may have behaved atrociously, trying to "ethnically cleanse" the Kosovo province of ethnic Albanians in the 1990s, but that doesn't excuse the way the Kosovars have treated the Serbian minority since the end of the war in 1999. Human Rights Watch has issued an urgent call for protection for the Serbian minority in Kosovo, which has been the subject of large-scale violence since 2004, when 60,000 Kosovan Serbs were driven from their homes by Albanian militias. Many were murdered. Some 200,000 Kosovan Serbs are still living in camps abroad, unable to return to their homeland.
It would be ironic, indeed, if the west had to intervene in Kosovo for a second time in 10 years to prevent the ethnic cleansing of the Serbs. The dark side of nationalism has never been darker than in the Balkans. In the maelstrom of nationalisms that proliferated after the collapse of the Yugoslavian state, it's not easy to identify the good from the bad, the right from the wronged. All the more reason, then, to ensure that, if Scotland does become independent, it is done in a civilised and humane manner. Now, there is no reason to suppose that the process of Scottish independence, were it to happen, would be any more "conflicted" than the separation of Slovakia from the Czech Republic in the 1993. That velvet divorce has become the template for all civic nationalist movements in Europe. There was a bit of fuss about the division of the Czechoslovak national debt, and whether or not to have separate currencies, but in the end the two sides sorted themselves out, and made a go of it. Indeed, the five million Slovaks - who were very much the poor relations in the old Czechoslovakia - have never looked back. Slovakia is now one of the fastest-growing countries in Europe.
Most of us would assume that Scottish independence would take the Slovakian route, rather than the Kosovan. We do not have a Balkan history of ethnic conflict, dictatorship, war and partition. Our wars
of independence ended in, er, Berwick hundreds of years ago. Moreover, participation in the European Union would likely ensure a more civilised secession than in the Balkans.
Of course, there are still those who say that Europe would refuse to admit Scotland if it became independent. Some Labour ministers have argued that countries such as France would block Scotland's membership for fear of encouraging regional separatist movements in their own countries. But as in Kosovo, I suspect the EU would be among the first to recognise an independent Scotland - especially as it would be eager for the euro. There is realpolitik here. The diplomatic advantage to countries such as France from the disintegration of the UK would outweigh the risk of provoking domestic nationalism.
Think of it. Great Britain would be no more, its influence in the European Council fragmented, its place in the UN Security Council in question and its stature among the community of nations hugely diminished. England may be the biggest bit of the UK, but the loss of the little bits could be highly damaging to its international prestige. Indeed, my own view is that Westminster - if it were sensible - would plan for a historic compromise with Scotland, giving it all the political autonomy it sought so long as it remained formally part of the UK in the eyes of the world.
We would be living apart together; keeping up appearances, while going our separate ways politically. Scotland would remain British under the crown, a nominal partner in a new confederal United Kingdom. And if that meant handing Berwick back, I suspect the English wouldn't think twice
about it.
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Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 12:31am Mon 18 Feb 08
Scotland will be off loaded sooner than you think!
Scotland will be off loaded sooner than you think!
Posted by: Brian D Finch, Brigadoon on 12:40am Mon 18 Feb 08
Ian McWhirter: [quote]Think of it. Great Britain would be no more...[/quote] Oh, Ian. I think of it often. Great is the pleasure it gives me... ;-)
Ian McWhirter:
Think of it. Great Britain would be no more...
Oh, Ian. I think of it often. Great is the pleasure it gives me... ;-)
Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 12:41am Mon 18 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Think of it. Great Britain would be no more, its influence in the European Council fragmented, its place in the UN Security Council in question and its stature among the community of nations hugely diminished[/bold][/quote]
Why do you nat in skirts push this crap, Scotland is 8% of the UK, 8% is just a smidgen, get over it, your not that important to England.
England will keep the 7 mep seats allocated to Scotland, in my mind a win for England and more power in Europe.
Even "the fat one" stated Englands seat on the UN security council will stay as it is.
Scotland a nation with just over 1.1 million men in full time work should know it's place, and it's not at the top table!
Think of it. Great Britain would be no more, its influence in the European Council fragmented, its place in the UN Security Council in question and its stature among the community of nations hugely diminished
Why do you nat in skirts push this crap, Scotland is 8% of the UK, 8% is just a smidgen, get over it, your not that important to England.
England will keep the 7 mep seats allocated to Scotland, in my mind a win for England and more power in Europe.
Even "the fat one" stated Englands seat on the UN security council will stay as it is.
Scotland a nation with just over 1.1 million men in full time work should know it's place, and it's not at the top table!
Posted by: doonhamer on 3:43am Mon 18 Feb 08
[quote][bold]scotland only 8% of UK[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Think of it. Great Britain would be no more, its influence in the European Council fragmented, its place in the UN Security Council in question and its stature among the community of nations hugely diminished[/bold][/quote] Why do you nat in skirts push this crap, Scotland is 8% of the UK, 8% is just a smidgen, get over it, your not that important to England. England will keep the 7 mep seats allocated to Scotland, in my mind a win for England and more power in Europe. Even "the fat one" stated Englands seat on the UN security council will stay as it is. Scotland a nation with just over 1.1 million men in full time work should know it's place, and it's not at the top table![/quote] Thank you for another enlightened post.
You do make the Nats job so much easier.
Keep up the good work.
and do not forget to wash the sash and hat.
scotland only 8% of UK wrote:
Think of it. Great Britain would be no more, its influence in the European Council fragmented, its place in the UN Security Council in question and its stature among the community of nations hugely diminished
Why do you nat in skirts push this crap, Scotland is 8% of the UK, 8% is just a smidgen, get over it, your not that important to England. England will keep the 7 mep seats allocated to Scotland, in my mind a win for England and more power in Europe. Even "the fat one" stated Englands seat on the UN security council will stay as it is. Scotland a nation with just over 1.1 million men in full time work should know it's place, and it's not at the top table!
Thank you for another enlightened post.
You do make the Nats job so much easier.
Keep up the good work.
and do not forget to wash the sash and hat.
Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 7:02am Mon 18 Feb 08
[bold][quote]doonhamer on 3:43am today
You do make the Nats job so much easier.
Keep up the good work.[/quote][/bold]
That is my aim, the sooner your off the backs of the English the better, remember independence for Scotland means independence for England.
8% is a fact and dont forget that.
doonhamer on 3:43am today
You do make the Nats job so much easier.
Keep up the good work.
That is my aim, the sooner your off the backs of the English the better, remember independence for Scotland means independence for England.
8% is a fact and dont forget that.
Posted by: Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 8:48am Mon 18 Feb 08
The history of Westminster London is to retain power by mendacious or military means.
Democracy for Iraqis & Afghanis but not for Scots! Remember Mr Broon and Militant Miliband, you have “a moral imperative” – your own words in today’s speech – to bring your democracy & ballot boxes to subject peoples even by military means – your own declared policy - post Blair - Oh Antonius Blairius, thou are mighty yet.
Clearly the devolved Scottish Government is performing too well; Scotland is gaining confidence and Westminster can’t stand the idea of effective democracy in Scotland. Time to take back powers on elections, transport, planning, all energy, water etc…
There will no velvet divorce I fear; London has bust banks, restless hot-money -tax free of course- with the oligarchs and pop-stars threatening to leave; the London fat cat commissions drying up… they need the oil money to keep afloat in balance of payments and real cash.
Scotland is the Jewel in the Crown of Westminster.
The history of Westminster London is to retain power by mendacious or military means.
Democracy for Iraqis & Afghanis but not for Scots! Remember Mr Broon and Militant Miliband, you have “a moral imperative” – your own words in today’s speech – to bring your democracy & ballot boxes to subject peoples even by military means – your own declared policy - post Blair - Oh Antonius Blairius, thou are mighty yet.
Clearly the devolved Scottish Government is performing too well; Scotland is gaining confidence and Westminster can’t stand the idea of effective democracy in Scotland. Time to take back powers on elections, transport, planning, all energy, water etc…
There will no velvet divorce I fear; London has bust banks, restless hot-money -tax free of course- with the oligarchs and pop-stars threatening to leave; the London fat cat commissions drying up… they need the oil money to keep afloat in balance of payments and real cash.
Scotland is the Jewel in the Crown of Westminster.
Posted by: Scottish Patriot, Scotland on 9:02am Mon 18 Feb 08
There is one fundamental flaw with Ian's thesis. The people of Scotland have again and again voted against independence. Over the last year every single opinion poll which has offered respondents the choice between independence, the status quo and more powers for the Scottish Parliament within the UK has shown a clear and decisive majority in favour of more powers for Holyrood within the UK.
So Ian McWhirter and his fellow nationalists can dream on and the rest of us can take comfort from the fact that their dream will remain just that.....
There is one fundamental flaw with Ian's thesis. The people of Scotland have again and again voted against independence. Over the last year every single opinion poll which has offered respondents the choice between independence, the status quo and more powers for the Scottish Parliament within the UK has shown a clear and decisive majority in favour of more powers for Holyrood within the UK.
So Ian McWhirter and his fellow nationalists can dream on and the rest of us can take comfort from the fact that their dream will remain just that.....
Posted by: GML, right here on 9:12am Mon 18 Feb 08
The people of Scotland have never voted for or against independence, just as they never voted for or against union with England.
The people have never been given a chance to vote on the subject in 300 years. I think that is wrong.
Most unionists are opposed to a referendum on independence, despite their claims that the people don't want it. I wonder why that is?
The people of Scotland have never voted for or against independence, just as they never voted for or against union with England.
The people have never been given a chance to vote on the subject in 300 years. I think that is wrong.
Most unionists are opposed to a referendum on independence, despite their claims that the people don't want it. I wonder why that is?
Posted by: Scottish Patriot, Scotland on 2:13pm Mon 18 Feb 08
When I used the phrase "voted against" I was referring to the fact that the people of Scotland have in the main voted for parties who opposse seperation.
The reason that the opponents of seperation oppose a referendum is for the same reason that the opponents of any proposition do. It is up to the proponents of any proposition to get themselves into a positon where they can press for a referendum and then campaign for a yes vote in that referendum.
The constant demands of nationalists for a referendum while the SNP refuse to call one, frankly, does not add up.
When I used the phrase "voted against" I was referring to the fact that the people of Scotland have in the main voted for parties who opposse seperation.
The reason that the opponents of seperation oppose a referendum is for the same reason that the opponents of any proposition do. It is up to the proponents of any proposition to get themselves into a positon where they can press for a referendum and then campaign for a yes vote in that referendum.
The constant demands of nationalists for a referendum while the SNP refuse to call one, frankly, does not add up.
Posted by: Davie08, a basement at Edinburgh uni on 2:29pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Scotish patriot (are you Proud to BS in disguise?). The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one. I know that logical consistency is not a strong suit of unionism but you might at least try to keep up.
Scotish patriot (are you Proud to BS in disguise?). The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one. I know that logical consistency is not a strong suit of unionism but you might at least try to keep up.
Posted by: Farquinella on 3:03pm Mon 18 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Davie08[/bold] wrote:
Scotish patriot (are you Proud to BS in disguise?). The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one. I know that logical consistency is not a strong suit of unionism but you might at least try to keep up.[/quote] Davie, before you accuse anyone else of "logical inconsistency", you should learn to write logically consistent sentences yourself...
your statement.....
[quote]The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one. [/quote]
...is logically inconsistent. The "unionists" cannot, logically, [bold]block[/bold] a referendum, unless there is some move or intention to conduct a referendum. And Alex Salmond has made no such move, and appears to have no such intention.
Furthermore, the belief that the "unionists" may be "implacably blocking" a referendum, is no bar on Alex Salmond attempting to call one. He could do it today if he really wanted to.
So, Davie, if you want logical consistency from others, please try to show some yourself.
Davie08 wrote:
Scotish patriot (are you Proud to BS in disguise?). The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one. I know that logical consistency is not a strong suit of unionism but you might at least try to keep up.
Davie, before you accuse anyone else of "logical inconsistency", you should learn to write logically consistent sentences yourself...
your statement.....
The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one.
...is logically inconsistent. The "unionists" cannot, logically,
block a referendum, unless there is some move or intention to conduct a referendum. And Alex Salmond has made no such move, and appears to have no such intention.
Furthermore, the belief that the "unionists" may be "implacably blocking" a referendum, is no bar on Alex Salmond attempting to call one. He could do it today if he really wanted to.
So, Davie, if you want logical consistency from others, please try to show some yourself.
Posted by: Farquinella on 3:08pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Davie, before you accuse anyone else of "logical inconsistency", you should learn to write logically consistent sentences yourself...
your statement.....
[quote]The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one. [/quote]
...is logically inconsistent. The "unionists" cannot, logically, [bold]block[/bold] a referendum, unless there is some move or intention to conduct a referendum. And Alex Salmond has made no such move, and appears to have no such intention.
Furthermore, the belief that the "unionists" may be "implacably blocking" a referendum, is no bar on Alex Salmond attempting to call one. He could do it today if he really wanted to.
So, Davie, if you want logical consistency from others, please try to show some yourself.
Davie, before you accuse anyone else of "logical inconsistency", you should learn to write logically consistent sentences yourself...
your statement.....
The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one.
...is logically inconsistent. The "unionists" cannot, logically,
block a referendum, unless there is some move or intention to conduct a referendum. And Alex Salmond has made no such move, and appears to have no such intention.
Furthermore, the belief that the "unionists" may be "implacably blocking" a referendum, is no bar on Alex Salmond attempting to call one. He could do it today if he really wanted to.
So, Davie, if you want logical consistency from others, please try to show some yourself.
Posted by: Farquinella on 3:10pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Davie, before you accuse anyone else of "logical inconsistency", you should learn to write logically consistent sentences yourself...
your statement.....
[quote]The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one. [/quote]
...is logically inconsistent. The "unionists" cannot, logically, [bold]block[/bold] a referendum, unless there is some move or intention to conduct a referendum. And Alex Salmond has made no such move, and appears to have no such intention.
Furthermore, the belief that the "unionists" may be "implacably blocking" a referendum, is no bar on Alex Salmond attempting to call one. He could do it today if he really wanted to.
So, Davie, if you want logical consistency from others, please try to show some yourself.
Davie, before you accuse anyone else of "logical inconsistency", you should learn to write logically consistent sentences yourself...
your statement.....
The SNP does not refuse to call a referendum the unionist parties are implacable in blocking one.
...is logically inconsistent. The "unionists" cannot, logically,
block a referendum, unless there is some move or intention to conduct a referendum. And Alex Salmond has made no such move, and appears to have no such intention.
Furthermore, the belief that the "unionists" may be "implacably blocking" a referendum, is no bar on Alex Salmond attempting to call one. He could do it today if he really wanted to.
So, Davie, if you want logical consistency from others, please try to show some yourself.
Posted by: Farquinella on 3:12pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Apologies for the triple posting
all I can say is: it wisnae mah fault....r
Apologies for the triple posting
all I can say is: it wisnae mah fault....r
Posted by: Vespa, Clacks on 3:55pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Have the SNP actually tried to get a bill for a referendum through the Scottish parliament? I must have missed it!
Have the SNP actually tried to get a bill for a referendum through the Scottish parliament? I must have missed it!
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 4:02pm Mon 18 Feb 08
l legally part of Serbia, which would vote for the province to remain so - if anyone asked. As we know from bitter experience in Northern Ireland, when you start chopping up states and handing autonomy to oppressed ethnic groups, they have a nasty habit of becoming the oppressors themselves.
l legally part of Serbia, which would vote for the province to remain so - if anyone asked. As we know from bitter experience in Northern Ireland, when you start chopping up states and handing autonomy to oppressed ethnic groups, they have a nasty habit of becoming the oppressors themselves.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 4:04pm Mon 18 Feb 08
. [quote]As we know from bitter experience in Northern Ireland, when you start chopping up states and handing autonomy to oppressed ethnic groups, they have a nasty habit of becoming the oppressors themselves.[/quote]
NI not a good example. Its creation was to enable the "oppressor" to remain in pole position.
.
As we know from bitter experience in Northern Ireland, when you start chopping up states and handing autonomy to oppressed ethnic groups, they have a nasty habit of becoming the oppressors themselves.
NI not a good example. Its creation was to enable the "oppressor" to remain in pole position.
Posted by: Cynicus, Scotland on 4:07pm Mon 18 Feb 08
. [quote]As we know from bitter experience in Northern Ireland, when you start chopping up states and handing autonomy to oppressed ethnic groups, they have a nasty habit of becoming the oppressors themselves.[/quote]
NI not a good example. Its creation was to enable the "oppressor" to remain in pole position.
.
As we know from bitter experience in Northern Ireland, when you start chopping up states and handing autonomy to oppressed ethnic groups, they have a nasty habit of becoming the oppressors themselves.
NI not a good example. Its creation was to enable the "oppressor" to remain in pole position.
Posted by: Grassy Knollington on 4:23pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Iain this seems to be a request to hold back from the proper grown up independence enjoyed by other countries for the greater good of England because she has apparently much to lose.
The "stronger together" mantra is beloved of Unionists like yourself
(note to the terminally dim, Iain has never made any secret of the fact that he would prefer to remain part of the Union and the fact that he has written some fine articles in the past few months displaying fairness and objectivity does NOT make him a Nationalist) but frankly it won't wash.
Let England take care of herself Iain, she really is quite capable.
Besides the Jock bashing has gone too far for us to live happily under the same roof anymore. They believe the Labour Unionist mantra that Scots are weak , feckless, economic basket cases and appear to want shot of us at their ( or our) earliest convenience.
There is as much chance of a federal UK along the lines you propose as there is of a Press and Journal front page showing Nicol Stephen cutting the ribbon to open the Trump Golf development in Aberdeenshire.
Iain this seems to be a request to hold back from the proper grown up independence enjoyed by other countries for the greater good of England because she has apparently much to lose.
The "stronger together" mantra is beloved of Unionists like yourself
(note to the terminally dim, Iain has never made any secret of the fact that he would prefer to remain part of the Union and the fact that he has written some fine articles in the past few months displaying fairness and objectivity does NOT make him a Nationalist) but frankly it won't wash.
Let England take care of herself Iain, she really is quite capable.
Besides the Jock bashing has gone too far for us to live happily under the same roof anymore. They believe the Labour Unionist mantra that Scots are weak , feckless, economic basket cases and appear to want shot of us at their ( or our) earliest convenience.
There is as much chance of a federal UK along the lines you propose as there is of a Press and Journal front page showing Nicol Stephen cutting the ribbon to open the Trump Golf development in Aberdeenshire.
Posted by: Davie08, a basement at Edinburgh uni on 5:15pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Farquinella
Sorry been away. For a referendum to be hel would require a vote in the Scottish Parliament. It may have escaped your notice but we have a minority government in this country. All the unionist parties are opposed to holding said referendum despite the fact that unionist posters on this site repeat ad nauseam that Scots are opposed to independence. If they are so convinced of their case why not agree to a referendum. A logical and consistent position one would have thought but then you obviously work from a different definition to the term than most of us.
Farquinella
Sorry been away. For a referendum to be hel would require a vote in the Scottish Parliament. It may have escaped your notice but we have a minority government in this country. All the unionist parties are opposed to holding said referendum despite the fact that unionist posters on this site repeat ad nauseam that Scots are opposed to independence. If they are so convinced of their case why not agree to a referendum. A logical and consistent position one would have thought but then you obviously work from a different definition to the term than most of us.
Posted by: Farquinella on 6:08pm Mon 18 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Davie08[/bold] wrote:
Farquinella
Sorry been away. For a referendum to be hel would require a vote in the Scottish Parliament. It may have escaped your notice but we have a minority government in this country. All the unionist parties are opposed to holding said referendum despite the fact that unionist posters on this site repeat ad nauseam that Scots are opposed to independence. If they are so convinced of their case why not agree to a referendum. A logical and consistent position one would have thought but then you obviously work from a different definition to the term than most of us.[/quote] The opposition parties campaigned on a platform [bold]against[/bold] a referendum. Do you want them to betray their voters by now pressing for one?
Unlike Alex Salmond who campaigned on supporting a referendum within 100 days, and is now in hiding on the matter....
As for the voters being against independence. They are....
...At the last election fewer than 20% of Scots voters voted for the SNP, the party of independence....... You cannot break up the country on the support of less than 20% of the voters....
Davie08 wrote:
Farquinella
Sorry been away. For a referendum to be hel would require a vote in the Scottish Parliament. It may have escaped your notice but we have a minority government in this country. All the unionist parties are opposed to holding said referendum despite the fact that unionist posters on this site repeat ad nauseam that Scots are opposed to independence. If they are so convinced of their case why not agree to a referendum. A logical and consistent position one would have thought but then you obviously work from a different definition to the term than most of us.
The opposition parties campaigned on a platform
against a referendum. Do you want them to betray their voters by now pressing for one?
Unlike Alex Salmond who campaigned on supporting a referendum within 100 days, and is now in hiding on the matter....
As for the voters being against independence. They are....
...At the last election fewer than 20% of Scots voters voted for the SNP, the party of independence....... You cannot break up the country on the support of less than 20% of the voters....
Posted by: DougtheDug on 6:12pm Mon 18 Feb 08
"And no, I'm not going to make any facile comparisons between the Scottish National Party and the Kosovan Liberation Army "
So why the h3ll did you bring Kosovo into the article you dissembling little weasel, MacWhirter?
"Indeed, my own view is that Westminster - if it were sensible - would plan for a historic compromise with Scotland, giving it all the political autonomy it sought so long as it remained formally part of the UK in the eyes of the world."
If Westminster was sensible? What are you on about? If Scots decide for independence then what Westminster thinks is immaterial.
"If Westminster was sensible". What a patronising statement. Scots will decide on their own future not Westminster.
"And no, I'm not going to make any facile comparisons between the Scottish National Party and the Kosovan Liberation Army "
So why the h3ll did you bring Kosovo into the article you dissembling little weasel, MacWhirter?
"Indeed, my own view is that Westminster - if it were sensible - would plan for a historic compromise with Scotland, giving it all the political autonomy it sought so long as it remained formally part of the UK in the eyes of the world."
If Westminster was sensible? What are you on about? If Scots decide for independence then what Westminster thinks is immaterial.
"If Westminster was sensible". What a patronising statement. Scots will decide on their own future not Westminster.
Posted by: Kadok, West End on 7:40pm Mon 18 Feb 08
DougtheDug
No need for personal abuse. Iain MacWhirter believes in a federal UK with Scotland effectively independent. He'd be the first to accept that if the Scottish people wanted true independence then nothing should stand in their way.
Where I disagree with him is his obvious worry that England would be diminished if Scotland gained independence. The English population is rising rapidly and as Michael Portillo has previously argued, the loss of 5 million Scots should make little difference to the English economy or her world influence. It would be the best thing that ever happened to England as the great regional cities rose again to challenge the supremacy of London.
So DougtheDug. If you want to take federalists and fence sitters the extra step try persuasion. The likes of Iain MacWhirter have come a very long way and I expect there are many traditional Liberals who, in despair with Nicol Stephen, are ready to make the logical conclusion.
DougtheDug
No need for personal abuse. Iain MacWhirter believes in a federal UK with Scotland effectively independent. He'd be the first to accept that if the Scottish people wanted true independence then nothing should stand in their way.
Where I disagree with him is his obvious worry that England would be diminished if Scotland gained independence. The English population is rising rapidly and as Michael Portillo has previously argued, the loss of 5 million Scots should make little difference to the English economy or her world influence. It would be the best thing that ever happened to England as the great regional cities rose again to challenge the supremacy of London.
So DougtheDug. If you want to take federalists and fence sitters the extra step try persuasion. The likes of Iain MacWhirter have come a very long way and I expect there are many traditional Liberals who, in despair with Nicol Stephen, are ready to make the logical conclusion.
Posted by: DougtheDug on 8:32pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Kadok:
Iain MacWhirter writes a 1121 word article on Scottish independence and the first three paragraphs, 272 words or 25% of the article, are a Berwick on Tweed style fantasy explicitly based on Kosovo with phrases such as, "anxieties about the fate of the remaining ethnic English", and, "if English nationals are ethnically cleansed from the area."
He then has the cheek to say, "I'm not going to make any facile comparisons between the Scottish National Party and the Kosovan Liberation Army".
If you think I'm abusing him about his dreams of a unionist federal Britain then read the article and wake up and smell the coffee.
Kadok:
Iain MacWhirter writes a 1121 word article on Scottish independence and the first three paragraphs, 272 words or 25% of the article, are a Berwick on Tweed style fantasy explicitly based on Kosovo with phrases such as, "anxieties about the fate of the remaining ethnic English", and, "if English nationals are ethnically cleansed from the area."
He then has the cheek to say, "I'm not going to make any facile comparisons between the Scottish National Party and the Kosovan Liberation Army".
If you think I'm abusing him about his dreams of a unionist federal Britain then read the article and wake up and smell the coffee.
Posted by: Globaltraveller, Scotland on 8:39pm Mon 18 Feb 08
#3
[quote]Why do you nat in skirts push this crap, Scotland is 8% of the UK, 8% is just a smidgen, get over it, your not that important to England.
England will keep the 7 mep seats allocated to Scotland, in my mind a win for England and more power in Europe.
Even "the fat one" stated Englands seat on the UN security council will stay as it is.
Scotland a nation with just over 1.1 million men in full time work should know it's place, and it's not at the top table![/quote]
You should read the memoirs of John Major - an Englishman I believe.
He devotes a whole chapter to the "Union" and notes how he believed that if Scottish independence were ever to occur, England would be kicked off the UN Security Council and would have much less bargaining power in the EU - reduced below France and Italy - when it currently enjoys status equal to or above them.
Please also remember that England has a higher economic inactivity (and thus supplicancy) rate than Scotland. Thanks
#3
Why do you nat in skirts push this crap, Scotland is 8% of the UK, 8% is just a smidgen, get over it, your not that important to England.
England will keep the 7 mep seats allocated to Scotland, in my mind a win for England and more power in Europe.
Even "the fat one" stated Englands seat on the UN security council will stay as it is.
Scotland a nation with just over 1.1 million men in full time work should know it's place, and it's not at the top table!
You should read the memoirs of John Major - an Englishman I believe.
He devotes a whole chapter to the "Union" and notes how he believed that if Scottish independence were ever to occur, England would be kicked off the UN Security Council and would have much less bargaining power in the EU - reduced below France and Italy - when it currently enjoys status equal to or above them.
Please also remember that England has a higher economic inactivity (and thus supplicancy) rate than Scotland. Thanks
Posted by: art1000, Dunfermline on 8:47pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Kadok says of Scots independence's effect on England [quote]It would be the best thing that ever happened to England as the great regional cities rose again to challenge the supremacy of London.[/quote]
This I think totally correct- a win win. It would create the conditions for a real re-balancing of power across the whole island and provide a huge democratic boost to everyone as well as a giving a huge economic boost. There is nothing anti-English about the aspirations of Scots to run their own country- quite the reverse in fact.
Kadok says of Scots independence's effect on England
It would be the best thing that ever happened to England as the great regional cities rose again to challenge the supremacy of London.
This I think totally correct- a win win. It would create the conditions for a real re-balancing of power across the whole island and provide a huge democratic boost to everyone as well as a giving a huge economic boost. There is nothing anti-English about the aspirations of Scots to run their own country- quite the reverse in fact.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 11:51pm Mon 18 Feb 08
Doug, I liked the article. And I agree with Kadok, Iain MacWhirter has been on a political journey himself, he's still on it. That comes over in his writing all the time. I don't always agree with him but this is a "Comment" article he is writing and his opinions are allowed to come into it so he isnt doing anything wrong.
Doug, I liked the article. And I agree with Kadok, Iain MacWhirter has been on a political journey himself, he's still on it. That comes over in his writing all the time. I don't always agree with him but this is a "Comment" article he is writing and his opinions are allowed to come into it so he isnt doing anything wrong.
Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 12:05am Tue 19 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Globaltraveller, Scotland on 8:39pm today
Please also remember that England has a higher economic inactivity (and thus supplicancy) rate than Scotland. Thanks[/bold][/quote]
Dont forget Scotland is onlty 8% of the UK.
4.75 million public sector workers England.
585,000 public sector workers Scotland. (pro rata 25% more than England)
2.1 million incapacity benefit claiments England
302,000 incapacity benefit claiments Scotland (pro rata 50% more than England)
Take out the public sector and large % on incapacity benefit then Scotland looks very shamefull.
1.1 million Scottish males are in full time employment
12 million English males are in full time employment.
Globaltraveller, Scotland on 8:39pm today
Please also remember that England has a higher economic inactivity (and thus supplicancy) rate than Scotland. Thanks
Dont forget Scotland is onlty 8% of the UK.
4.75 million public sector workers England.
585,000 public sector workers Scotland. (pro rata 25% more than England)
2.1 million incapacity benefit claiments England
302,000 incapacity benefit claiments Scotland (pro rata 50% more than England)
Take out the public sector and large % on incapacity benefit then Scotland looks very shamefull.
1.1 million Scottish males are in full time employment
12 million English males are in full time employment.
Posted by: Toque, Lewes on 8:56am Tue 19 Feb 08
Salmond is mischief making, trying to raise English hackles.
But of course he would like Berwick because it would increase Scotland's Oil share which might just make Scotland a viable concern.
Salmond is mischief making, trying to raise English hackles.
But of course he would like Berwick because it would increase Scotland's Oil share which might just make Scotland a viable concern.
Posted by: Globaltraveller, Scotland on 9:06am Tue 19 Feb 08
Public Sector employment (Scotland) - 22% of all workers
Public Sector employment (England) - 20% of all workers
Not 25% more than England, public sector employment roughly equivalent to .
Economic Inactivity rates HIGHER in England than in Scotland.
Employment Rate HIGHER in Scotland than England
Unemployment Rate HIGHER in England than Scotland.
Public Sector employment (Scotland) - 22% of all workers
Public Sector employment (England) - 20% of all workers
Not 25% more than England, public sector employment roughly equivalent to .
Economic Inactivity rates HIGHER in England than in Scotland.
Employment Rate HIGHER in Scotland than England
Unemployment Rate HIGHER in England than Scotland.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:13am Tue 19 Feb 08
8% Of My Brain Cells I Use for Thinking[quote]your not that important to England.[/quote] Oh, but we are to you otherwise you wouldn't trouble yourself to write screeds of drivel day after day knocking the hell out of the "wee insignificant end of England" known as Scotland - now would you, ya lang stringy snotter. You take such immense care in saying nothing of any worth.
Your opinion is about as reliable as a punctured condom.
8% Of My Brain Cells I Use for Thinking
your not that important to England.
Oh, but we are to you otherwise you wouldn't trouble yourself to write screeds of drivel day after day knocking the hell out of the "wee insignificant end of England" known as Scotland - now would you, ya lang stringy snotter. You take such immense care in saying nothing of any worth.
Your opinion is about as reliable as a punctured condom.
Posted by: Farquinella on 9:16am Tue 19 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Globaltraveller[/bold] wrote:
Public Sector employment (Scotland) - 22% of all workers
Public Sector employment (England) - 20% of all workers
Not 25% more than England, public sector employment roughly equivalent to .
Economic Inactivity rates HIGHER in England than in Scotland.
Employment Rate HIGHER in Scotland than England
Unemployment Rate HIGHER in England than Scotland.
[/quote] A quote from an eminently sensible source:
[quote]...When petty nationalisms compete common sense goes oot the windy...[/quote]
Source: Ma Granny, but she was nae mug.
Globaltraveller wrote:
Public Sector employment (Scotland) - 22% of all workers
Public Sector employment (England) - 20% of all workers
Not 25% more than England, public sector employment roughly equivalent to .
Economic Inactivity rates HIGHER in England than in Scotland.
Employment Rate HIGHER in Scotland than England
Unemployment Rate HIGHER in England than Scotland.
A quote from an eminently sensible source:
...When petty nationalisms compete common sense goes oot the windy...
Source: Ma Granny, but she was nae mug.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:17am Tue 19 Feb 08
JC Walks On Rice Pudding[quote]Oh so are they going to stop having annual rallies at Bannockburn and is Salmond going to stop basing his view of history on the film Braveheart?[/quote] And are you going to stop posting anti-Scots gibberish in the Herald forums?
"Well, of course not. Without it I don't exist. I like to download my posts, print them, cut them out, and paste them in my scrapbook - JC's Jolly Jottings."
JC Walks On Rice Pudding
Oh so are they going to stop having annual rallies at Bannockburn and is Salmond going to stop basing his view of history on the film Braveheart?
And are you going to stop posting anti-Scots gibberish in the Herald forums?
"Well, of course not. Without it I don't exist. I like to download my posts, print them, cut them out, and paste them in my scrapbook - JC's Jolly Jottings."
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:20am Tue 19 Feb 08
Farquinella is A Fella[quote]Source: Ma Granny, but she was nae mug.[/quote] More a broken cup and saucer. Stop using your granny as literary canon fodder, you callous sw*ne.
Farquinella is A Fella
Source: Ma Granny, but she was nae mug.
More a broken cup and saucer. Stop using your granny as literary canon fodder, you callous sw*ne.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 9:29am Tue 19 Feb 08
Proud To Be A Patsy[quote] I was referring to the fact that the people of Scotland have in the main voted for parties who opposse seperation.[/quote] No they haven't.
They have never been given the choice of independence or unification, not by the SNP in the last decade. The SNP make it plain given enough time they will try to persuade by good government and argument. There is no talk of separation, only of self-determination.
And it's [bold]"separation."[/bold]
The standard of Unionist trolling on these forums is bloody lamentable.
Proud To Be A Patsy
I was referring to the fact that the people of Scotland have in the main voted for parties who opposse seperation.
No they haven't.
They have never been given the choice of independence or unification, not by the SNP in the last decade. The SNP make it plain given enough time they will try to persuade by good government and argument. There is no talk of separation, only of self-determination.
And it's
"separation."
The standard of Unionist trolling on these forums is bloody lamentable.
Posted by: GAW, Glasgow UK on 9:29am Tue 19 Feb 08
Can the folk above giving various comparisons between Scotland/England (public sector jobs, benefits etc) please state sources?
I tend to agree more with the figures of Mr "scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security", but then no-one has substantiated their claims.
What is clear is that anyone with half a brain would leave Scotland if it ever became independant. I certainly wouldnt be hanging around the pick up the increased tab for my sloth-like countrymen.
Can the folk above giving various comparisons between Scotland/England (public sector jobs, benefits etc) please state sources?
I tend to agree more with the figures of Mr "scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security", but then no-one has substantiated their claims.
What is clear is that anyone with half a brain would leave Scotland if it ever became independant. I certainly wouldnt be hanging around the pick up the increased tab for my sloth-like countrymen.
Posted by: DougtheDug on 9:42am Tue 19 Feb 08
Clare:
"Iain MacWhirter has been on a political journey himself"
Yes, all the way from being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who quite likes Labour to being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who doesn't really like Labour.
It's been a long hard road.
Clare:
"Iain MacWhirter has been on a political journey himself"
Yes, all the way from being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who quite likes Labour to being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who doesn't really like Labour.
It's been a long hard road.
Posted by: tormad, aberdeen on 9:47am Tue 19 Feb 08
jc If you have ever been to the Balkans you would have seen the brutality and ruin that ethnic nationalism can cause. I have never heard of one single bullet being fired in the name of Scottish Nationalism. Joining together to celebrate ones own history can never be compared with the rifle waving and indiscriminate shooting of innocents.
Come on mate the differences are stark
jc If you have ever been to the Balkans you would have seen the brutality and ruin that ethnic nationalism can cause. I have never heard of one single bullet being fired in the name of Scottish Nationalism. Joining together to celebrate ones own history can never be compared with the rifle waving and indiscriminate shooting of innocents.
Come on mate the differences are stark
Posted by: scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security on 9:56am Tue 19 Feb 08
Labour market statistics feb 08
http://tinyurl.com/2
jb69c
Public sector
http://tinyurl.com/2
knpps
% of population on benefits
England 13.7%
Scotland [bold]16.7[/bold] %
http://tinyurl.com/3
3rc86
Labour market statistics feb 08
http://tinyurl.com/2
jb69c
Public sector
http://tinyurl.com/2
knpps
% of population on benefits
England 13.7%
Scotland
16.7 %
http://tinyurl.com/3
3rc86
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 10:03am Tue 19 Feb 08
8% Drivel Is My Life[quote]http://tinyurl.com/2
knpps[/quote] Can't get much more boring than posting tiny meaningless urls.
"Oi 'ave run owt of crass opinion, oi 'ave, so oi wull post obscure urls. "Ere, aint tha' a mountain in far orft Russia, or summink?"
8% Drivel Is My Life
http://tinyurl.com/2
knpps
Can't get much more boring than posting tiny meaningless urls.
"Oi 'ave run owt of crass opinion, oi 'ave, so oi wull post obscure urls. "Ere, aint tha' a mountain in far orft Russia, or summink?"
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 10:09am Tue 19 Feb 08
[quote][bold]DougtheDug[/bold] wrote:
Clare: "Iain MacWhirter has been on a political journey himself" Yes, all the way from being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who quite likes Labour to being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who doesn't really like Labour. It's been a long hard road.[/quote] Doug your post makes no sense whatsoever. The main point I would make is that Iain MacWhirter is entitled to an opinion just like you or I. Attacking people for simply possessing an opinion is surely not the way to go.
DougtheDug wrote:
Clare: "Iain MacWhirter has been on a political journey himself" Yes, all the way from being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who quite likes Labour to being a Lib-Dem who believes in the Union and who wants some kind of federal system of internal government and who doesn't really like Labour. It's been a long hard road.
Doug your post makes no sense whatsoever. The main point I would make is that Iain MacWhirter is entitled to an opinion just like you or I. Attacking people for simply possessing an opinion is surely not the way to go.
Posted by: IanC, W Horsley on 11:11am Tue 19 Feb 08
In his whimsical analysis, Iain seems to have forgotten that, unlike Serbia and Kossovo, England and Scotland are both 'countries' and that both the English and Scots are nations. It just so happens that in 1707 they pooled their sovereignty. If independence is restored, the velvet divorce as between Slovakia and the Czech Republic is the more likely scenario. The important point, amid all this democratic posturing by the UK Government and the EU, is that in the 21st century a Union should rest on the consent of the people. The people were not asked in 1707. It's about time that we were. None of the Unionist parties however will agree to ask the people of England and Scotland whether they wish the Union continue. The most recently appointed party leader of one such, Nick Clegg, has specifically said that the constitutional commission that his party supports can review everything except the Union itself. On the Kossovo example, this puts him on the Serbian side. While the Unionists are entitled to their opinions surely they are not entitled to set limits to what can democratically decided by the people of England and Scotland? Did not some of his eminent colleagues sign the Claim of Right for Scotland (as did Mr Brown)? Perhaps the Claim should be pinned overnight to the door of No 10 Downing St.
In his whimsical analysis, Iain seems to have forgotten that, unlike Serbia and Kossovo, England and Scotland are both 'countries' and that both the English and Scots are nations. It just so happens that in 1707 they pooled their sovereignty. If independence is restored, the velvet divorce as between Slovakia and the Czech Republic is the more likely scenario. The important point, amid all this democratic posturing by the UK Government and the EU, is that in the 21st century a Union should rest on the consent of the people. The people were not asked in 1707. It's about time that we were. None of the Unionist parties however will agree to ask the people of England and Scotland whether they wish the Union continue. The most recently appointed party leader of one such, Nick Clegg, has specifically said that the constitutional commission that his party supports can review everything except the Union itself. On the Kossovo example, this puts him on the Serbian side. While the Unionists are entitled to their opinions surely they are not entitled to set limits to what can democratically decided by the people of England and Scotland? Did not some of his eminent colleagues sign the Claim of Right for Scotland (as did Mr Brown)? Perhaps the Claim should be pinned overnight to the door of No 10 Downing St.
Posted by: Farquinella on 11:49am Tue 19 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
Proud To Be A Patsy[quote] I was referring to the fact that the people of Scotland have in the main voted for parties who opposse seperation.[/quote] No they haven't.
They have never been given the choice of independence or unification, not by the SNP in the last decade. The SNP make it plain given enough time they will try to persuade by good government and argument. There is no talk of separation, only of self-determination.
And it's [bold]"separation."[/bold]
The standard of Unionist trolling on these forums is bloody lamentable.
[/quote] That's why opinion poll support for independence has been falling for a year, from a low of 33% who voted SNP last May to an even lower of 27% in the NOP poll last week.
And, you're right. It is indeed[bold] "separation".[/bold]
Los Angeles wrote:
Proud To Be A Patsy I was referring to the fact that the people of Scotland have in the main voted for parties who opposse seperation.
No they haven't.
They have never been given the choice of independence or unification, not by the SNP in the last decade. The SNP make it plain given enough time they will try to persuade by good government and argument. There is no talk of separation, only of self-determination.
And it's "separation."
The standard of Unionist trolling on these forums is bloody lamentable.
That's why opinion poll support for independence has been falling for a year, from a low of 33% who voted SNP last May to an even lower of 27% in the NOP poll last week.
And, you're right. It is indeed
"separation". Posted by: Grassy Knollington on 3:31pm Tue 19 Feb 08
Surely if Douglas Fraser can call Nationalist bloggers "vermin from the sewer", Nationalist bloggers can call Iain a dissembling little weasel.
Although Iain doesn't go for wee furry beasties himself he called us the "hoodies from blog steerage".
There's rather a worrying amount of apparently over sensitive souls on these sites and often as not they are indignant Nationalists policing the site themselves and "advising" people not to be so nasty to Iain, Alf , Douglas or whoever.
This may make them feel like better people but I must counsel any who do that despite stepping in on their behalf Alf and Douglas will still dislike you and all you stand for.
I like to see a bit of anger on these blogs if it is legitimate and I hope we don't all turn into some sort of version of Ned Flanders from the Simpsons where we are all saying "okilly dokilly" and writing anodyne respectful posts.
There is plenty to be angry about in Scottish Politics and the journalists who are paid to be political analysts are well able to look after themselves.
Oh and if you didn't like that , in the words of the much missed Father Jack Hackett, ye can Feck off!!!
Surely if Douglas Fraser can call Nationalist bloggers "vermin from the sewer", Nationalist bloggers can call Iain a dissembling little weasel.
Although Iain doesn't go for wee furry beasties himself he called us the "hoodies from blog steerage".
There's rather a worrying amount of apparently over sensitive souls on these sites and often as not they are indignant Nationalists policing the site themselves and "advising" people not to be so nasty to Iain, Alf , Douglas or whoever.
This may make them feel like better people but I must counsel any who do that despite stepping in on their behalf Alf and Douglas will still dislike you and all you stand for.
I like to see a bit of anger on these blogs if it is legitimate and I hope we don't all turn into some sort of version of Ned Flanders from the Simpsons where we are all saying "okilly dokilly" and writing anodyne respectful posts.
There is plenty to be angry about in Scottish Politics and the journalists who are paid to be political analysts are well able to look after themselves.
Oh and if you didn't like that , in the words of the much missed Father Jack Hackett, ye can Feck off!!!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:34pm Tue 19 Feb 08
Farquinella Is A Fella[quote]That's why opinion poll support for independence has been falling for a year[/quote] Yawn.
If you don't have friends please go out and make them rather than removing them from other people so you feel better.
Farquinella Is A Fella
That's why opinion poll support for independence has been falling for a year
Yawn.
If you don't have friends please go out and make them rather than removing them from other people so you feel better.
Posted by: Farquinella on 4:54pm Tue 19 Feb 08
Los Angeles wrote, for not the first time....
[quote]
Farquinella Is A Fella[/quote]
LA, you seem quite obsessed that I might be male.....
How can I put this delicately......
LA, do you have, ahem, gender issues?
Only, if you have, and thanks to the Labour Government and its wonderful investment in health, you can get psychological and psychiatric help on the NHS. It's free. And anonymous if you wish, so no-one else needs to know.
Meanwhile the point I made is still accurate. Support for independence, in published opinion polls, is falling ...
Any chance you might try to forget your sexual obsessions for a wee minute and address the point?
You can't just lurk here forever wondering on the sexual inclinations of those posters who do stick to the point..
LA, it's just not right and, deep down, you know it!
Los Angeles wrote, for not the first time....
Farquinella Is A Fella
LA, you seem quite obsessed that I might be male.....
How can I put this delicately......
LA, do you have, ahem, gender issues?
Only, if you have, and thanks to the Labour Government and its wonderful investment in health, you can get psychological and psychiatric help on the NHS. It's free. And anonymous if you wish, so no-one else needs to know.
Meanwhile the point I made is still accurate. Support for independence, in published opinion polls, is falling ...
Any chance you might try to forget your sexual obsessions for a wee minute and address the point?
You can't just lurk here forever wondering on the sexual inclinations of those posters who do stick to the point..
LA, it's just not right and, deep down, you know it!
Posted by: DAVID MCCANN on 6:33pm Tue 19 Feb 08
If you want a referendum why not 'Let Scotland Decide"?
Go to http://www.scottishi
ndependenceconventio
n.com
and vote for it
If you want a referendum why not 'Let Scotland Decide"?
Go to http://www.scottishi
ndependenceconventio
n.com
and vote for it
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 8:55pm Tue 19 Feb 08
Farquinella Is A Fella[quote]Support for independence, in published opinion polls, is falling ...[/quote]A lame reposte.
Scottish voiced Shrek has more gumption.
And my curiousity lies in wondering why a supposedly full-blooded political activist would choose a weak cartoon character, female too, for a web name.
Once trolls are challenged you usually find they have no opinion than that first posted, scant as it was. You are no exception - you resort to repeating a bald statement. And I can tell you are holding on to it tight ...a lifeline, in case you sink without trace.
Farquinella Is A Fella
Support for independence, in published opinion polls, is falling ...
A lame reposte.
Scottish voiced Shrek has more gumption.
And my curiousity lies in wondering why a supposedly full-blooded political activist would choose a weak cartoon character, female too, for a web name.
Once trolls are challenged you usually find they have no opinion than that first posted, scant as it was. You are no exception - you resort to repeating a bald statement. And I can tell you are holding on to it tight ...a lifeline, in case you sink without trace.
Posted by: JC on 9:54pm Tue 19 Feb 08
[quote][bold]tormad[/bold] wrote:
jc If you have ever been to the Balkans you would have seen the brutality and ruin that ethnic nationalism can cause. I have never heard of one single bullet being fired in the name of Scottish Nationalism. Joining together to celebrate ones own history can never be compared with the rifle waving and indiscriminate shooting of innocents. Come on mate the differences are stark[/quote] The point is this- the nats like to present themselves as internationalists and libertarians, but basically they are an anti-English party. They need to be to provide some justification for their support. If they simply said 'Let's have a Scotland separate from the rest of the UK, perople would naturally ask why? It's not self -determination, as the person in the Street is still having to vote to put a numpty into parliament, except instead of westminster the parliament is in edinburgh.
No, the nats have to create a bogey man, something to be against- i.e. the English. They may use code words such as Westminster, but we know what they mean. This issue about Berwick is one example. Stirring up trouble over nothing.
So they have rallies at Bannockburn. Is that necause of the good car parking facilities or is it because it's the site of a Scotland v England batllefield with symbolic importance for themselves?
Wake up and smell the coffee, and smell the crap coming from salmond and his mob. It's not celebrating history, it's using the past to stir up greivance for politicaladvantage. Unfortunately if they go on much longer, this place will end up like Kosovo.
tormad wrote:
jc If you have ever been to the Balkans you would have seen the brutality and ruin that ethnic nationalism can cause. I have never heard of one single bullet being fired in the name of Scottish Nationalism. Joining together to celebrate ones own history can never be compared with the rifle waving and indiscriminate shooting of innocents. Come on mate the differences are stark
The point is this- the nats like to present themselves as internationalists and libertarians, but basically they are an anti-English party. They need to be to provide some justification for their support. If they simply said 'Let's have a Scotland separate from the rest of the UK, perople would naturally ask why? It's not self -determination, as the person in the Street is still having to vote to put a numpty into parliament, except instead of westminster the parliament is in edinburgh.
No, the nats have to create a bogey man, something to be against- i.e. the English. They may use code words such as Westminster, but we know what they mean. This issue about Berwick is one example. Stirring up trouble over nothing.
So they have rallies at Bannockburn. Is that necause of the good car parking facilities or is it because it's the site of a Scotland v England batllefield with symbolic importance for themselves?
Wake up and smell the coffee, and smell the crap coming from salmond and his mob. It's not celebrating history, it's using the past to stir up greivance for politicaladvantage. Unfortunately if they go on much longer, this place will end up like Kosovo.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:47am Wed 20 Feb 08
JC In The Toilet Bowl Of Politics[quote]The point is this- the nats like to present themselves as internationalists and libertarians, but basically they are an anti-English party.[/quote]Teacher's Report:
A lame attempt at smear - not much heart in it, to be candid; and in the face of a much admired SNP government, a wasted technique fast proving to be more boring than attention arresting. The rest of your mini-essay strains to reach even the lowly heights of waffle staying resolutely dross. Could do a lot better.
[bold]Marks out of 10: -3.[/bold]
JC In The Toilet Bowl Of Politics
The point is this- the nats like to present themselves as internationalists and libertarians, but basically they are an anti-English party.
Teacher's Report:
A lame attempt at smear - not much heart in it, to be candid; and in the face of a much admired SNP government, a wasted technique fast proving to be more boring than attention arresting. The rest of your mini-essay strains to reach even the lowly heights of waffle staying resolutely dross. Could do a lot better.
Marks out of 10: -3.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 9:54am Wed 20 Feb 08
JC , the first to really accuse the Scots of racism.
How dare you !
It is an argument well passed its sell by date.
Every time someone plays the racist card, the debate degenerates into 'no I'm not'' Yes you are'.
There is no other country in the world that so accuses itself of racism, it's like a bl**dy industry.
Come to think of it there is probably someone in a well paid job writing about it, analysing it and laughing all the way to the bank.
Over played and irritating in the extreme.
With regards independence, we have NEVER had a vote on it .
It is NOT just SNP supporters who believe in it.
And any poll, which you care to use as evidence ,is fatally flawed before it gets off the ground.
I would like someone to call a simple referendum ,
Do you want to see an independent Scotland ? Yes/ No
JC , the first to really accuse the Scots of racism.
How dare you !
It is an argument well passed its sell by date.
Every time someone plays the racist card, the debate degenerates into 'no I'm not'' Yes you are'.
There is no other country in the world that so accuses itself of racism, it's like a bl**dy industry.
Come to think of it there is probably someone in a well paid job writing about it, analysing it and laughing all the way to the bank.
Over played and irritating in the extreme.
With regards independence, we have NEVER had a vote on it .
It is NOT just SNP supporters who believe in it.
And any poll, which you care to use as evidence ,is fatally flawed before it gets off the ground.
I would like someone to call a simple referendum ,
Do you want to see an independent Scotland ? Yes/ No
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh on 10:13am Wed 20 Feb 08
There is no advantage to Scotland of staying in the British state, we need our own seat at the UN and will have to push until we get it.
Anything short of that is not independence. We might share a Queen (for a time) after independence, but so did Eire and Canada and Australia do at the moment. That won't stop us being independent andf I personally believe a monarchy won't last for long in an independent Scotland where MP's are not forced to take any oath of allegience to the monarch.
There is no advantage to Scotland of staying in the British state, we need our own seat at the UN and will have to push until we get it.
Anything short of that is not independence. We might share a Queen (for a time) after independence, but so did Eire and Canada and Australia do at the moment. That won't stop us being independent andf I personally believe a monarchy won't last for long in an independent Scotland where MP's are not forced to take any oath of allegience to the monarch.
Posted by: Farquinella on 10:13am Wed 20 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Disgusted Dorothy[/bold] wrote:
JC , the first to really accuse the Scots of racism.
How dare you !
It is an argument well passed its sell by date.
Every time someone plays the racist card, the debate degenerates into 'no I'm not'' Yes you are'.
There is no other country in the world that so accuses itself of racism, it's like a bl**dy industry.
Come to think of it there is probably someone in a well paid job writing about it, analysing it and laughing all the way to the bank.
Over played and irritating in the extreme.
With regards independence, we have NEVER had a vote on it .
It is NOT just SNP supporters who believe in it.
And any poll, which you care to use as evidence ,is fatally flawed before it gets off the ground.
I would like someone to call a simple referendum ,
Do you want to see an independent Scotland ? Yes/ No[/quote] Dorothy the only "someone" who can call a referendum is Alex Salmond. He's the FM and he promised to call a referendum within 100 days of taking power. So take out your frustration on him and his party.
As for Scots being racist: some are, most aren't, but nationalism attracts racists and gives them a framework and a spurious respectability.
JC is right about code words such as "Westminster" and "London based" and so on to mean "English". It's what American politicians call "dog whistle". Those with sensitive ears can read the message, while leaving it denyable.
Disgusted Dorothy wrote:
JC , the first to really accuse the Scots of racism.
How dare you !
It is an argument well passed its sell by date.
Every time someone plays the racist card, the debate degenerates into 'no I'm not'' Yes you are'.
There is no other country in the world that so accuses itself of racism, it's like a bl**dy industry.
Come to think of it there is probably someone in a well paid job writing about it, analysing it and laughing all the way to the bank.
Over played and irritating in the extreme.
With regards independence, we have NEVER had a vote on it .
It is NOT just SNP supporters who believe in it.
And any poll, which you care to use as evidence ,is fatally flawed before it gets off the ground.
I would like someone to call a simple referendum ,
Do you want to see an independent Scotland ? Yes/ No
Dorothy the only "someone" who can call a referendum is Alex Salmond. He's the FM and he promised to call a referendum within 100 days of taking power. So take out your frustration on him and his party.
As for Scots being racist: some are, most aren't, but nationalism attracts racists and gives them a framework and a spurious respectability.
JC is right about code words such as "Westminster" and "London based" and so on to mean "English". It's what American politicians call "dog whistle". Those with sensitive ears can read the message, while leaving it denyable.
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh, Scotland on 10:21am Wed 20 Feb 08
It's important people realise what exactly is happening with the referendum policy. After the elections the unionists made it clear they would oppose any referendum bill so to bring one in then would have doomed it to failure and wouldn't have helped the credibility of a new minority Government.
Alex Salmond has said the SNP will hold a referendum in 2010, once the people have had the chance to see the SNP in Government and realise that the unionists alarmist scare stories prior to the election were just that.
Wendy Alexander has said on the record "the SNP will have there referendum in 2010 and lose it" which suggest Labour might vote for it (in the hope that the pro independence position will lose).
If they don't then the SNP can legitimately claim that the unionists are blocking the people's desire for a vote on independence (80% are in favour of a vote according to the polls) so will fight the next election (and no doubt win it handsomely) on that basis.
In the meantime anyone who wants one can support a referendum by signing the public petition at
[bold]http://www.scottishi
ndependenceconventio
n.com[/bold]
It's important people realise what exactly is happening with the referendum policy. After the elections the unionists made it clear they would oppose any referendum bill so to