
Salmond and Brown: the right men for these times
Like most political hacks, I tend to be a bit of a professional pessimist, if not a borderline depressive. The world of public affairs is not a sunny one, and the reward for optimism about politicians is generally ridicule. So this is one column I will probably regret writing.
For, at the close of this political year, I feel compelled to say that I feel more positive about our political culture and leadership now than I can recall in almost three decades of observing the political game. And it is all down to personalities.
Political enemies they may be, but in Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond we have two astute and even visionary politicians at the very top of their game. They have clear ideas about where they think the country is going, and the political skills to make things happen. I may not agree entirely with the policies of either, but I'd have no hesitation in pronouncing them the sharpest tools to have come out of the British political box in the last half century. And no, this isn't a wind-up.
Both Brown and Salmond strike me as more humane and grounded than Margaret Thatcher, more principled than Harold Wilson, more intelligent than Tony Blair. None of the other post-war leaders since Churchill stand comparison, except perhaps the late Donald Dewar, who lacked elementary political and presentational skills.
Gordon Brown had, of course, already shown himself to be a politician of the highest quality during his 10 years in the treasury. But in the past few weeks he has revealed an entirely new dimension of himself in the
sure-footed and intelligent way in which he has taken over in Number Ten.
Brown has made a philosophical and political break with the tawdry politics of Blairism without igniting civil war in his party. That took real class, after all those years of frustrated ambition. But there has been not one squeak of dissent from the remnants of the old regime, even as Brown has dismantled it.
The new PM's sober handling of the alleged attempted terrorist bombings and the English floods was exemplary. He was right to recognise that housing is one of the great issues of the 21st century, right to scrap supercasinos, right to review drug and alcohol laws. He was right to ditch sofa government, to begin to put an end to the war in Iraq, to address the defects in the constitution and to promise to clean up party funding.
Yes, I know it sounds naive and even sycophantic to talk this way, but bear with me. For if we don't identify when some politicians are getting it right, how can we expect the rest of them to raise their game?
In his current visit to America, Gordon Brown is showing that he is capable of achieving distance from the US Republican leadership without compromising diplomatic relations with America. Brown has already shown that he understands the imperatives of climate change and the importance of addressing economic failure in Africa, and he is rightly determined to speak over the heads of America's myopic political leadership to the thinking Americans who must be mobilised if these great global challenges are to be met.
And yes, I know Brown voted for the war in Iraq, but I don't believe he would have gone to war on the basis of dodgy intelligence. And his contrition now is sincere. It is rare enough for a leader to live up to their expectations; for them to exceed them is practically unheard of. But that is what Brown has done.
And, coincidentally, we also have the makings of Scotland's first great political leader in 300 years in the shape of Alex Salmond. The First Minister has shown tactical genius and real political courage in the manner in which he has run an effective government in Scotland, with only 46 out of 129 MSPs and no coalition partner. When the Liberal Democrats boycotted the Salmond executive, it looked as if Scotland's nationalist experiment would be short-lived. But most independent observers believe that this administration has a lot of life left in it, and may even go the distance. Certainly, if there were an election tomorrow, the SNP under Alex Salmond would likely be returned by a landslide.
Of course, no party's success is down to just one individual, and Salmond has had able support from his subordinates. But there is little doubt in my mind that only someone with Salmond's self-confidence, boldness and intelligence could have carried it off. Like him or loathe him, the First Minister is a brilliant political operator. Just look at his conduct in parliament, the succession of executive initiatives, the
al Megrahi affair, the handling of the trams defeat.
Above all, it is Salmond's sense of destiny that marks him out from other Scottish political figures of the modern age. He is the real deal; the first genuine political leader in Scottish democratic history. A very different character, of course, from Gordon Brown - impetuous, more of an outsider, less pious, much more willing to take a gamble than the ultra-cautious Labour leader. But, in a curious way, they are both the right men for the times. Scotland is clearly in the mood to take risks, live a little dangerously as it becomes more culturally assertive. England, on the other hand, is suffering from an excess of charisma and military adventures and wants to live rather less dangerously right now.
But they are polar opposites politically. So how, you ask, can you trust both of them at the same time? They can't both be right. Many would say it is reckless to applaud someone like the SNP leader, who is widely regarded as an unreliable and devious egotist, or a Labour leader whom many in his own party believe to be a neurotic control freak. But, somehow, I do believe their positives outweigh their negatives.
Of course, all politicians are fallible and make promises they cannot keep, and they are often corrupted by power. Promising leaders become diminished by the compromises of office; and, as Enoch Powell put it, "every political career ends in tears". But just for now, just for this moment, let's calmly celebrate the fact that we are in a rare time in history during which the nation's leaders are actually doing the business.
And how extraordinary that both of them should be Scottish. What is it about this little country that it generates such a disproportionate share of British political leaders? For, of course, the present and immediate past LibDem leaders are also Scots, and even Blair was a Jock of sorts.
In celebrating the new
generation of British political leaders, we are also celebrating Scottish society and culture. That's something, surely, that we can feel good about.
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Posted by: MacShimmy on 12:03am Mon 30 Jul 07
Are we then seeing the real "End of Empire" ? One without bloodshed, economic recrimination, and an endless diplomatic tantrums?
Is it really possible that the present union is dissolving and reforming in a constructive way for all concerned?
I would like to think so. But the music will not be as good as comes from a bloody stramash. Can't have it both way I suppose.
Are we then seeing the real "End of Empire" ? One without bloodshed, economic recrimination, and an endless diplomatic tantrums?
Is it really possible that the present union is dissolving and reforming in a constructive way for all concerned?
I would like to think so. But the music will not be as good as comes from a bloody stramash. Can't have it both way I suppose.
Posted by: donald, glasgow on 8:15am Mon 30 Jul 07
Salmond aye. Ditch Broon.
Salmond aye. Ditch Broon.
Posted by: Andymac, Norway on 9:25am Mon 30 Jul 07
donald,
I suspect you'd be one of the first to attack others for not recognising Salmond's abilities and for deriding his achievements so far. You'd probably even accuse them of typical Labour bias.
Don't sound so churlish and at least recognise Brown's equally obvious abilities.
MacWhirter's column is interesting as it is the first real attempt to discern the dynamic between the two leaders, I would say credit all round, to Salmond for what he has done so far and is doing, to Brown for starting to make changes without so far destabilising his government and equally to MacWhirter for recording this.
Whether it works out well, no-one knows at the moment but so far so good in my opinion.
donald,
I suspect you'd be one of the first to attack others for not recognising Salmond's abilities and for deriding his achievements so far. You'd probably even accuse them of typical Labour bias.
Don't sound so churlish and at least recognise Brown's equally obvious abilities.
MacWhirter's column is interesting as it is the first real attempt to discern the dynamic between the two leaders, I would say credit all round, to Salmond for what he has done so far and is doing, to Brown for starting to make changes without so far destabilising his government and equally to MacWhirter for recording this.
Whether it works out well, no-one knows at the moment but so far so good in my opinion.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 9:29am Mon 30 Jul 07
re: "In celebrating the new generation of British political leaders, we are also celebrating Scottish society and culture. That's something, surely, that we can feel good about."
On no we're not!
Scots are distancing themselves politically and culturally from the British state, and that is something to celebrate.
re: "In celebrating the new generation of British political leaders, we are also celebrating Scottish society and culture. That's something, surely, that we can feel good about."
On no we're not!
Scots are distancing themselves politically and culturally from the British state, and that is something to celebrate.
Posted by: Mark Irvine, Edinburgh on 10:04am Mon 30 Jul 07
Well, Iain says so himself - he does sound naive and sycophantic.
Gordon Brown supports the enormous cost and waste of replacing Trident, Alex Salmond does not .
Alex Salmond supports the principle of fairer votes and proportional representation, Gordon Brown does not.
Gordon Brown is the architect of PFI/PPP, while Alex Salmond is arguing for less market-driven solutions.
They can't both be right - far less astute and visionary.
Well, Iain says so himself - he does sound naive and sycophantic.
Gordon Brown supports the enormous cost and waste of replacing Trident, Alex Salmond does not .
Alex Salmond supports the principle of fairer votes and proportional representation, Gordon Brown does not.
Gordon Brown is the architect of PFI/PPP, while Alex Salmond is arguing for less market-driven solutions.
They can't both be right - far less astute and visionary.
Posted by: Jimbo on 11:00am Mon 30 Jul 07
"None of the other post-war leaders since Churchill stand comparison, except perhaps the late Donald Dewar, who lacked elementary political and presentational skills."
But was an excellent liar, not on behalf of, but to the Scots, and also happily suppressed to McCrone report during his lifetime. Another Labour MP and MSP who fought his utmost on behalf of his Westminster masters to the detriment of Scotland. His statue is a slap in the face to the Scottish nation.
"None of the other post-war leaders since Churchill stand comparison, except perhaps the late Donald Dewar, who lacked elementary political and presentational skills."
But was an excellent liar, not on behalf of, but to the Scots, and also happily suppressed to McCrone report during his lifetime. Another Labour MP and MSP who fought his utmost on behalf of his Westminster masters to the detriment of Scotland. His statue is a slap in the face to the Scottish nation.
Posted by: Jimbo on 11:13am Mon 30 Jul 07
"Gordon Brown had, of course, already shown himself to be a politician of the highest quality during his 10 years in the treasury."
I take it his raid on the pensions hasn't affected you then Iain?
This man was complicit in everything Blair did. He eagerly sat in the background waiting his turn whilst happily finding the money to fund Blair's follies and Trident2, too afraid and inept to publicly stand up to Blair and put a rein on his craziness. He has since gone to the US where he has taken Blair's place and rolled over for Bush to rub his belly. The right man for these times? I think not.
"Gordon Brown had, of course, already shown himself to be a politician of the highest quality during his 10 years in the treasury."
I take it his raid on the pensions hasn't affected you then Iain?
This man was complicit in everything Blair did. He eagerly sat in the background waiting his turn whilst happily finding the money to fund Blair's follies and Trident2, too afraid and inept to publicly stand up to Blair and put a rein on his craziness. He has since gone to the US where he has taken Blair's place and rolled over for Bush to rub his belly. The right man for these times? I think not.
Posted by: Dougthedug on 11:18am Mon 30 Jul 07
This is a puff piece about Gordon Brown with Alex Salmond tagged on at the end to try and balance it out. Iain must be sharing notes with Alf Young and Catherine MacLeod. It's an uncritical piece more suitable for some airline magazine.
"Gordon Brown had, of course, already shown himself to be a politician of the highest quality during his 10 years in the treasury."
This is the man who's foisted the disastrous PFI schemes on public spending, sold off the gold reserves at a knock down price and blown the pension schemes apart. I wouldn't call that quality.
"He was right to recognise that housing is one of the great issues of the 21st century, right to scrap supercasinos, right to review drug and alcohol laws. He was right to ditch sofa government, to begin to put an end to the war in Iraq, to address the defects in the constitution and to promise to clean up party funding."
In his ten years as wing-man in the government, he let the housing crisis grow, he voted for the Supercasinos, he voted to reclassify cannabis the first time round and he hasn't mentioned Iraq at all. How about printing the timetable for withdrawal if you've got a copy? I've heard nothing from Gordon in the press.
"Yes, I know it sounds naive and even sycophantic to talk this way..."
Not sounds, it is.
"Many would say it is reckless to applaud someone like the SNP leader, who is widely regarded as an unreliable and devious egotist, or a Labour leader whom many in his own party believe to be a neurotic control freak. But, somehow, I do believe their positives outweigh their negatives."
When you say, "widely regarded as an unreliable and devious egotist", Iain, could you give us some numbers. This is a comment made a lot in the media but it's not a sentiment I've ever run across in the real world.
If sections of the labour party regard Brown as a, "neurotic control freak", it's not something I can comment on as I don't hang out with labour party members but I tend to take everything I read or hear in the media with a pinch of salt.
Gordon's week long disappearance after the Scottish elections is much more significant and an indication that defeat or bad news triggers a desire to run for cover rather than a desire to stand up and fight. It was a very strange episode and one that no-one has ever attempted to explain or examine in the press. Where did he go and why? Is it a taboo subject for journalists?
"For if we don't identify when some politicians are getting it right, how can we expect the rest of them to raise their game?"
Very true. But in this case a sober examination of the strengths and weakness of Brown and Salmond with some analysis of their political history would have been better than this piece of froth.
This is a puff piece about Gordon Brown with Alex Salmond tagged on at the end to try and balance it out. Iain must be sharing notes with Alf Young and Catherine MacLeod. It's an uncritical piece more suitable for some airline magazine.
"Gordon Brown had, of course, already shown himself to be a politician of the highest quality during his 10 years in the treasury."
This is the man who's foisted the disastrous PFI schemes on public spending, sold off the gold reserves at a knock down price and blown the pension schemes apart. I wouldn't call that quality.
"He was right to recognise that housing is one of the great issues of the 21st century, right to scrap supercasinos, right to review drug and alcohol laws. He was right to ditch sofa government, to begin to put an end to the war in Iraq, to address the defects in the constitution and to promise to clean up party funding."
In his ten years as wing-man in the government, he let the housing crisis grow, he voted for the Supercasinos, he voted to reclassify cannabis the first time round and he hasn't mentioned Iraq at all. How about printing the timetable for withdrawal if you've got a copy? I've heard nothing from Gordon in the press.
"Yes, I know it sounds naive and even sycophantic to talk this way..."
Not sounds, it is.
"Many would say it is reckless to applaud someone like the SNP leader, who is widely regarded as an unreliable and devious egotist, or a Labour leader whom many in his own party believe to be a neurotic control freak. But, somehow, I do believe their positives outweigh their negatives."
When you say, "widely regarded as an unreliable and devious egotist", Iain, could you give us some numbers. This is a comment made a lot in the media but it's not a sentiment I've ever run across in the real world.
If sections of the labour party regard Brown as a, "neurotic control freak", it's not something I can comment on as I don't hang out with labour party members but I tend to take everything I read or hear in the media with a pinch of salt.
Gordon's week long disappearance after the Scottish elections is much more significant and an indication that defeat or bad news triggers a desire to run for cover rather than a desire to stand up and fight. It was a very strange episode and one that no-one has ever attempted to explain or examine in the press. Where did he go and why? Is it a taboo subject for journalists?
"For if we don't identify when some politicians are getting it right, how can we expect the rest of them to raise their game?"
Very true. But in this case a sober examination of the strengths and weakness of Brown and Salmond with some analysis of their political history would have been better than this piece of froth.
Posted by: Biffa on 11:21am Mon 30 Jul 07
"the SNP leader, who is widely regarded as an unreliable and devious egotist,"
no he's not, only by Political journalists who are desperately pushing a pro-Brown agenda.
It's not as cosy as you think Iain . Your wish for a hobbled Salmond running North Britain with flair and imagination whilst not rocking the constitutional boat is not what I want for my country.
Brown, like Dewar before him does not act in the best interests of Scotland, his loyalty is to the Labour Party and to Westminster.
Alex Salmond will always put the best interests of Scotland first .
"the SNP leader, who is widely regarded as an unreliable and devious egotist,"
no he's not, only by Political journalists who are desperately pushing a pro-Brown agenda.
It's not as cosy as you think Iain . Your wish for a hobbled Salmond running North Britain with flair and imagination whilst not rocking the constitutional boat is not what I want for my country.
Brown, like Dewar before him does not act in the best interests of Scotland, his loyalty is to the Labour Party and to Westminster.
Alex Salmond will always put the best interests of Scotland first .
Posted by: Ian Black, France on 11:46am Mon 30 Jul 07
Scotland's dynamic political duo, First Minister Salmond and Prime Minister Brown are both social democrats. This tradition shaped our European post-war world under the benevolent hegemony of America. Its political viability in a post cold war globalised world economy is the challenge both leaders now face. As a small independent country the opportunity for Scotland to succeed in the context of the new Europe is the course Alex Salmond has set for the nation. Gordon Brown committed to greater multilateralism than previous UK governments still holds the Atlantasist doctrine central.The skill both leaders will need in the next few years is to keep each set of true believers on side.[bold]bold[/bold]
Scotland's dynamic political duo, First Minister Salmond and Prime Minister Brown are both social democrats. This tradition shaped our European post-war world under the benevolent hegemony of America. Its political viability in a post cold war globalised world economy is the challenge both leaders now face. As a small independent country the opportunity for Scotland to succeed in the context of the new Europe is the course Alex Salmond has set for the nation. Gordon Brown committed to greater multilateralism than previous UK governments still holds the Atlantasist doctrine central.The skill both leaders will need in the next few years is to keep each set of true believers on side.
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 12:08pm Mon 30 Jul 07
"Naive and sycophantic". The words nails, hit, and head come to mind Ian. Also grovelling and deluded fuckwit are others. One would think that the press would have learned leasons from those dreadfull Blair years and adopted more critical faculties, but not a bit of it. Business as usual then? Fraid so!
"Naive and sycophantic". The words nails, hit, and head come to mind Ian. Also grovelling and deluded fuckwit are others. One would think that the press would have learned leasons from those dreadfull Blair years and adopted more critical faculties, but not a bit of it. Business as usual then? Fraid so!
Posted by: Boab, Glasgow on 1:23pm Mon 30 Jul 07
I might sound naive and sycophantic now but McWhirter is probably Scotland's best political columnist and this could be read as him trying to flex his public opinion-forming muscles as he builds up two Scottish political heavyweights, partly out of his imagination! I also agree with Dougthedug and others above up to a point, McWhirter is out of step with the times by continuing to support Labour when their day has (hopefully?) passed. Brown's own legacy might come back to haunt him over his premiership, with Iraq, the pensions and the house prices.
Still, why not be optimistic for a change? Both these two will come unstuck sooner or later; they're certainly in a position to achieve great things, so this was a worthwhile article to write.
I might sound naive and sycophantic now but McWhirter is probably Scotland's best political columnist and this could be read as him trying to flex his public opinion-forming muscles as he builds up two Scottish political heavyweights, partly out of his imagination! I also agree with Dougthedug and others above up to a point, McWhirter is out of step with the times by continuing to support Labour when their day has (hopefully?) passed. Brown's own legacy might come back to haunt him over his premiership, with Iraq, the pensions and the house prices.
Still, why not be optimistic for a change? Both these two will come unstuck sooner or later; they're certainly in a position to achieve great things, so this was a worthwhile article to write.
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 1:47pm Mon 30 Jul 07
The press could (and should) have destroyed Blair/Brown, the Dumb and Dumber of British politics, with the rest of the nightmareish characters that comprise THe New-Labour project. That they chose not to do so is despicable, and have cost the lives of 670,000 civilian Iraq men, women and kiddies. Is it any wonder that politicians and those who are laughably called journalists have reputations that are lower than the gutter!
The press could (and should) have destroyed Blair/Brown, the Dumb and Dumber of British politics, with the rest of the nightmareish characters that comprise THe New-Labour project. That they chose not to do so is despicable, and have cost the lives of 670,000 civilian Iraq men, women and kiddies. Is it any wonder that politicians and those who are laughably called journalists have reputations that are lower than the gutter!
Posted by: Calgacus 2, Glasgow on 2:25pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Well, let me just redress the balance a tad, since the usual infestation of separatists has pretty comprehensively rubbished McWhirter for daring to suggest that Brown could possibly deserve any praise whatever for anything. I don't actually think McWhirter is that good a political analyst - he gives away his own agenda too often for that - and though it makes for a different slant on things, I think he's trying too hard to be different by suggesting that Salmond deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Brown.
Anyone who watched Salmond's first speeches to the Parliament as 1st Minister, throughout which he found it impossible to banish the self-satisfied grin of the cat that got the cream while putting on the most unconvincing portrayal of pseudo-humility, would find it hard to see him as a serious statesman. Anyone who is watching incredulously as the SNP's 'initiatives' are unveiled - the latest of which is a bizarre proposal about the flying of flags - will be concerned that anything serious is going to be accomplished by Salmond's administration over the next four years. Anyone who thinks that a succession of proposals about scrapping bridge tolls, holding pre-determined enquiries into changes in hospital provision and wasting parliamentary time on a white paper about a referendum which has no chance of being passed will question whether the person leading this administration is indeed a man of political 'vision' or just an astute chancer who is, like David Cameron used to be, good at PR. At the moment, Salmond only looks good because he hasn't had to do anything difficult and he has a Labour opposition that has completely lost the place.
Good try, Iain - but Brown is heading for a pretty solid victory whenever he holds the general election and things are going to get tough for Mr Salmond when he's run out of cost-free 'initiatives'. Let's see where we are in a year's time. Maybe by then we'll have had an SNP budget.......
Well, let me just redress the balance a tad, since the usual infestation of separatists has pretty comprehensively rubbished McWhirter for daring to suggest that Brown could possibly deserve any praise whatever for anything. I don't actually think McWhirter is that good a political analyst - he gives away his own agenda too often for that - and though it makes for a different slant on things, I think he's trying too hard to be different by suggesting that Salmond deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Brown.
Anyone who watched Salmond's first speeches to the Parliament as 1st Minister, throughout which he found it impossible to banish the self-satisfied grin of the cat that got the cream while putting on the most unconvincing portrayal of pseudo-humility, would find it hard to see him as a serious statesman. Anyone who is watching incredulously as the SNP's 'initiatives' are unveiled - the latest of which is a bizarre proposal about the flying of flags - will be concerned that anything serious is going to be accomplished by Salmond's administration over the next four years. Anyone who thinks that a succession of proposals about scrapping bridge tolls, holding pre-determined enquiries into changes in hospital provision and wasting parliamentary time on a white paper about a referendum which has no chance of being passed will question whether the person leading this administration is indeed a man of political 'vision' or just an astute chancer who is, like David Cameron used to be, good at PR. At the moment, Salmond only looks good because he hasn't had to do anything difficult and he has a Labour opposition that has completely lost the place.
Good try, Iain - but Brown is heading for a pretty solid victory whenever he holds the general election and things are going to get tough for Mr Salmond when he's run out of cost-free 'initiatives'. Let's see where we are in a year's time. Maybe by then we'll have had an SNP budget.......
Posted by: talorthane on 2:44pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Calgacus 2
What a waste of time that post was.
You criticise McWhirter because "he gives away his own agenda too often". You should have spent some time re-reading your own post.
You criticise Salmond for grinning throughout his first speech as First Minister. Given the historical nature of that event, I think he could be forgiven for enjoying the moment. He has some way to go before he can dislodge Blair as the biggest grinner at the despatch box.
You have betrayed your own agenda throughout your post, as every objective observer has commented that Salmond has done a hell of a lot during his first few weeks in office.
Calgacus 2
What a waste of time that post was.
You criticise McWhirter because "he gives away his own agenda too often". You should have spent some time re-reading your own post.
You criticise Salmond for grinning throughout his first speech as First Minister. Given the historical nature of that event, I think he could be forgiven for enjoying the moment. He has some way to go before he can dislodge Blair as the biggest grinner at the despatch box.
You have betrayed your own agenda throughout your post, as every objective observer has commented that Salmond has done a hell of a lot during his first few weeks in office.
Posted by: Harrybo on 3:04pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Calgacus 2 , still hurting then?
Come on , relax it will get easier. . The SNP won the election. Numptyville is a smouldering ruin. Vanquished Labour footsoldiers like yourself lash out at all and sundry. Even the Scottish journalists can find good things to say about Salmond. It wasn't meant to be like this now was it?
Calgacus 2 , still hurting then?
Come on , relax it will get easier. . The SNP won the election. Numptyville is a smouldering ruin. Vanquished Labour footsoldiers like yourself lash out at all and sundry. Even the Scottish journalists can find good things to say about Salmond. It wasn't meant to be like this now was it?
Posted by: Calgacus 2 on 3:29pm Mon 30 Jul 07
talorthane: you're a frequent SNP poster, I've noticed - perhaps an activist? "My own agenda?" That's a laugh - I think you're the one with the agenda actually. I just happen to be an ordinary voter that thinks Brown is a politician of stature who, to paraphrase your own words, "every objective observer has commented he has done a hell of a lot during his first few weeks in office". Salmond has also had a good press, it's true, but he hasn't done anything yet that his spin doctors would find difficult to sell to a media desperate for something new. And let's face it, the previous 1st Minister wasn't exactly the outstanding politician of our age. That's why I disagree with McWhirter's analysis. But since every snp poster on this board disagrees with him too, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed my own opinion.
Harrybo: moi a "vanquished Labour footsoldier"? Sorry - not me. I confess to having voted Labour at the last election, but that's as far as it goes. I realise that you separatists cannot stomach any dissent from the 'Salmond is a saint' line, but that is the kind of blind sycophancy will eventually cause you to come a cropper if you're not careful.
talorthane: you're a frequent SNP poster, I've noticed - perhaps an activist? "My own agenda?" That's a laugh - I think you're the one with the agenda actually. I just happen to be an ordinary voter that thinks Brown is a politician of stature who, to paraphrase your own words, "every objective observer has commented he has done a hell of a lot during his first few weeks in office". Salmond has also had a good press, it's true, but he hasn't done anything yet that his spin doctors would find difficult to sell to a media desperate for something new. And let's face it, the previous 1st Minister wasn't exactly the outstanding politician of our age. That's why I disagree with McWhirter's analysis. But since every snp poster on this board disagrees with him too, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed my own opinion.
Harrybo: moi a "vanquished Labour footsoldier"? Sorry - not me. I confess to having voted Labour at the last election, but that's as far as it goes. I realise that you separatists cannot stomach any dissent from the 'Salmond is a saint' line, but that is the kind of blind sycophancy will eventually cause you to come a cropper if you're not careful.
Posted by: talorthane on 4:15pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Calgacus 2
I have no problem admitting that I support the SNP. In fact it's not a matter of admitting anything as I'm perfectly open about it.
As a matter of fact, I support the SNP as a consequence of my believe that Scotland should be independent, not because I'm loyal to a single party.
I criticised your post because it suffered from the same flaws that you accused the journalist of, displaying an agenda. There's nothing wrong with having your owns opinions and biases, but in criticising McWhirter's objectivity, you presented as fact your owns views, which are equally subjective.
Calgacus 2
I have no problem admitting that I support the SNP. In fact it's not a matter of admitting anything as I'm perfectly open about it.
As a matter of fact, I support the SNP as a consequence of my believe that Scotland should be independent, not because I'm loyal to a single party.
I criticised your post because it suffered from the same flaws that you accused the journalist of, displaying an agenda. There's nothing wrong with having your owns opinions and biases, but in criticising McWhirter's objectivity, you presented as fact your owns views, which are equally subjective.
Posted by: Calgacus 2 on 4:59pm Mon 30 Jul 07
talorthane:
Political writers who have an agenda are less interesting than those who try to be detached. That's what I mean about McWhirter and why I find his writing too polemical and ultimately a bit boring. I, on the other hand, am just an ordinary politically interested member of the public, so I am allowed to have an 'agenda' (i.e. start from a particular set of sympathies) just as you are, and as you clearly do. I don't know why you think I should not be allowed to criticise McWhirter for having an 'agenda'. He gets paid to write political analysis, unlike me. In fact, of course, my criticism of him was very mild compared with almost all the nationalist supporters here who have villified him for daring to praise both Salmond AND Brown. The chief characteristic of both Herald and Scotsman message boards (though the Scotsman is worse) now seems to be that they are almost swamped by nationalist posters on any topic that touches on Scottish politics, and that most of these nationalists are extremely intolerant of any position that is not pro-independence.
I am someone who isn't convinced either by Salmond or the case for independence. That doesn't make me anything other than someone who has yet to be convinced - nothing more, nothing less. I don't accept that McWhirter is right to place Salmond in the pantheon of great political leaders, because he hasn't achieved much yet. Maybe he will in time, but in the mean time Brown has achieved a great deal, even if you disagree with some of his decisions. He may come to be seen as a great leader, maybe not, but it's too early to say and McWhirter's article is nothing more than an attempt to make something out of not very much.
talorthane:
Political writers who have an agenda are less interesting than those who try to be detached. That's what I mean about McWhirter and why I find his writing too polemical and ultimately a bit boring. I, on the other hand, am just an ordinary politically interested member of the public, so I am allowed to have an 'agenda' (i.e. start from a particular set of sympathies) just as you are, and as you clearly do. I don't know why you think I should not be allowed to criticise McWhirter for having an 'agenda'. He gets paid to write political analysis, unlike me. In fact, of course, my criticism of him was very mild compared with almost all the nationalist supporters here who have villified him for daring to praise both Salmond AND Brown. The chief characteristic of both Herald and Scotsman message boards (though the Scotsman is worse) now seems to be that they are almost swamped by nationalist posters on any topic that touches on Scottish politics, and that most of these nationalists are extremely intolerant of any position that is not pro-independence.
I am someone who isn't convinced either by Salmond or the case for independence. That doesn't make me anything other than someone who has yet to be convinced - nothing more, nothing less. I don't accept that McWhirter is right to place Salmond in the pantheon of great political leaders, because he hasn't achieved much yet. Maybe he will in time, but in the mean time Brown has achieved a great deal, even if you disagree with some of his decisions. He may come to be seen as a great leader, maybe not, but it's too early to say and McWhirter's article is nothing more than an attempt to make something out of not very much.
Posted by: marianne, 168-608 on 5:08pm Mon 30 Jul 07
No, Calgacus, Salmond is very far from being a saint but then neither is Gordon Brown! But, Salmond has been the best thing to happen to Scotland in generations. As for Gordon Brown, he was the power behind Blair's throne, the man signing the cheques, the one equally responsible for the continuing Iraq horror, the pensions scandal, the rampant PFI catastrophes that have further enriched the moneymen while leaving future generations in hock, the massively expensive but failed IT projects, the dangerous cutbacks in the funding to the armed services and at a time when they've never been more stretched. The Chancellor who kept reannouncing the same money, the one who thought it was ok to offer old age pensioners a rise of 75 pence. The man who in his last budget made the poor poorer. The sneaky spinner who undermined Jack McConnell at every turn and controlled the election strategy because he thought he knew best. The man so furious at Alex Salmond’s victory that he took 2 weeks phone him. I don’t like or trust him.
No, Calgacus, Salmond is very far from being a saint but then neither is Gordon Brown! But, Salmond has been the best thing to happen to Scotland in generations. As for Gordon Brown, he was the power behind Blair's throne, the man signing the cheques, the one equally responsible for the continuing Iraq horror, the pensions scandal, the rampant PFI catastrophes that have further enriched the moneymen while leaving future generations in hock, the massively expensive but failed IT projects, the dangerous cutbacks in the funding to the armed services and at a time when they've never been more stretched. The Chancellor who kept reannouncing the same money, the one who thought it was ok to offer old age pensioners a rise of 75 pence. The man who in his last budget made the poor poorer. The sneaky spinner who undermined Jack McConnell at every turn and controlled the election strategy because he thought he knew best. The man so furious at Alex Salmond’s victory that he took 2 weeks phone him. I don’t like or trust him.
Posted by: Dougthedug on 5:23pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Calgacus 2:
"the usual infestation of separatists has pretty comprehensively rubbished McWhirter for daring to suggest that Brown could possibly deserve any praise whatever for anything. "
Nope, We've had go at McWhirter for writing a sycophantic piece which is contradicted by the facts. Brown is either wholly or partially culpable for PFI, the Pensions disaster, the Gold sell-off, Trident 2 and Iraq as well as that mysterious missing week when Labour needed rallying and leadership in the wake of losing power in Scotland.
If McWhirter is going to describe Brown as, "a politician of the highest quality", he should back it up with enough fact to convince those of us who have watched the PFI and Iraq disasters unfold over the years. Brown may have several good points as a politician, I just haven't spotted any yet. Convince me.
"anyone who is watching incredulously as the SNP's 'initiatives' are unveiled - the latest of which is a bizarre proposal about the flying of flags "
You've got a typo here. You've got "the SNP's" where you meant to write "Brown's".
Calgacus 2:
"the usual infestation of separatists has pretty comprehensively rubbished McWhirter for daring to suggest that Brown could possibly deserve any praise whatever for anything. "
Nope, We've had go at McWhirter for writing a sycophantic piece which is contradicted by the facts. Brown is either wholly or partially culpable for PFI, the Pensions disaster, the Gold sell-off, Trident 2 and Iraq as well as that mysterious missing week when Labour needed rallying and leadership in the wake of losing power in Scotland.
If McWhirter is going to describe Brown as, "a politician of the highest quality", he should back it up with enough fact to convince those of us who have watched the PFI and Iraq disasters unfold over the years. Brown may have several good points as a politician, I just haven't spotted any yet. Convince me.
"anyone who is watching incredulously as the SNP's 'initiatives' are unveiled - the latest of which is a bizarre proposal about the flying of flags "
You've got a typo here. You've got "the SNP's" where you meant to write "Brown's".
Posted by: Calgacus 2 on 7:06pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Marianne and dougthedug - I don't suppose I have a hope of arguing against your position on Brown, which isn't, by the way, shared by most respected commentators - but I just hope your faith in Salmond and the SNP isn't rudely shattered when the going gets tough. Because you see, politics is the same the world over and politicians always, always end up being hated by large sections of the population and their achievements ignored while their successes are derided.
Brown has had his failures, but among those I would not count the so-called 'pensions scandal'. That's what the Tories, led by the Daily Mail, called it and the SNP typically have jumped on that band-wagon. What Brown did was to lift the tax exemption on the pension funds when they were absolutely awash with cash. Later we had the dot.com crash and they were caught short - at least those that had imprudently invested their capital. I think you'll find that most reputable economists maintain that Brown's tax accounted for only a small and fairly insignificant proportion of their problem.
As for Trident: replacing the existing system seems a wise enough choice at the moment. It has worked as a deterrent for long enough, and with relations by no means warm with Russia, and in future a potentially aggressive China as well, it's hard to see why being cautious and not breaking international treaties by going for unilateral disarmament should seem such a bad thing to do at the moment.
But none of this will appeal to your 'agenda' so I suppose I'm just wasting my time. You stick with your local hero Alec Salmond and carry on painting Brown as some sort of three-headed monster. It's not grown-up politics, but if it makes you feel all warm inside, fine.
Marianne and dougthedug - I don't suppose I have a hope of arguing against your position on Brown, which isn't, by the way, shared by most respected commentators - but I just hope your faith in Salmond and the SNP isn't rudely shattered when the going gets tough. Because you see, politics is the same the world over and politicians always, always end up being hated by large sections of the population and their achievements ignored while their successes are derided.
Brown has had his failures, but among those I would not count the so-called 'pensions scandal'. That's what the Tories, led by the Daily Mail, called it and the SNP typically have jumped on that band-wagon. What Brown did was to lift the tax exemption on the pension funds when they were absolutely awash with cash. Later we had the dot.com crash and they were caught short - at least those that had imprudently invested their capital. I think you'll find that most reputable economists maintain that Brown's tax accounted for only a small and fairly insignificant proportion of their problem.
As for Trident: replacing the existing system seems a wise enough choice at the moment. It has worked as a deterrent for long enough, and with relations by no means warm with Russia, and in future a potentially aggressive China as well, it's hard to see why being cautious and not breaking international treaties by going for unilateral disarmament should seem such a bad thing to do at the moment.
But none of this will appeal to your 'agenda' so I suppose I'm just wasting my time. You stick with your local hero Alec Salmond and carry on painting Brown as some sort of three-headed monster. It's not grown-up politics, but if it makes you feel all warm inside, fine.
Posted by: Marianne on 10:37pm Mon 30 Jul 07
I don’t have an agenda. My background was ‘Old’ Labour - red in tooth and claw. But having grown up in Scotland and been depressed by the Tory years then sorely disillusioned by 10 years of ‘New’ Labour, I can honestly say that, while we are only at the beginning of the SNP Administration, there is a distinct feeling around of what I can only describe as ‘hope’. Alex Salmond has taken a moribund, lacklustre Parliament and given it a shake and made a lot of us onlookers sit up and take notice. He’s speaking up for Scotland in a way that the others didn’t. So far, so good. If they can continue to do well for as long as this Parliament lasts they should be able to win themselves support enough for more seats next time round and then we will be able to REALLY see what they can do. Only then will we be able to judge. Brown on the other hand, was the principal architect and guiding hand in all ten years of New Labour so his attempts now to portray his leadership as somehow ‘different’ from Blair ring hollow. A ‘different ‘ spin maybe, but as Gorgeous George Galloway said – still 2 cheeks on the same a*rse. Brown can posture all he likes - get rid of the super casinos (I wonder how many smaller ones he will quietly allow?). And so much for no more ‘sofa’ government – he made that announcement on the televised PMQs without consulting his Cabinet colleagues or forewarning the Manchester MPs. Then we saw him stealing Cameron’s thunder with an announcement about a new Border force although he rubbished the whole idea as unworkable when Cameron announced it a few months back - he also forgot to mention that there will be no more money for it - but it sounded good at PMQs and the press swallowed it. I would credit him with giving load of money to the NHS were it not for the fact that between him abd Patricia Hewitt they made such a hash of it that it was largely wasted.
I don’t have an agenda. My background was ‘Old’ Labour - red in tooth and claw. But having grown up in Scotland and been depressed by the Tory years then sorely disillusioned by 10 years of ‘New’ Labour, I can honestly say that, while we are only at the beginning of the SNP Administration, there is a distinct feeling around of what I can only describe as ‘hope’. Alex Salmond has taken a moribund, lacklustre Parliament and given it a shake and made a lot of us onlookers sit up and take notice. He’s speaking up for Scotland in a way that the others didn’t. So far, so good. If they can continue to do well for as long as this Parliament lasts they should be able to win themselves support enough for more seats next time round and then we will be able to REALLY see what they can do. Only then will we be able to judge. Brown on the other hand, was the principal architect and guiding hand in all ten years of New Labour so his attempts now to portray his leadership as somehow ‘different’ from Blair ring hollow. A ‘different ‘ spin maybe, but as Gorgeous George Galloway said – still 2 cheeks on the same a*rse. Brown can posture all he likes - get rid of the super casinos (I wonder how many smaller ones he will quietly allow?). And so much for no more ‘sofa’ government – he made that announcement on the televised PMQs without consulting his Cabinet colleagues or forewarning the Manchester MPs. Then we saw him stealing Cameron’s thunder with an announcement about a new Border force although he rubbished the whole idea as unworkable when Cameron announced it a few months back - he also forgot to mention that there will be no more money for it - but it sounded good at PMQs and the press swallowed it. I would credit him with giving load of money to the NHS were it not for the fact that between him abd Patricia Hewitt they made such a hash of it that it was largely wasted.
Posted by: Anne on 10:39pm Mon 30 Jul 07
Hang on a minute, SNP's bizarre proposals about flying flags? Folks, have we forgotten Broon's bizarre proposal about everyone in the GB land flying a union jack in their gardens.
Hang on a minute, SNP's bizarre proposals about flying flags? Folks, have we forgotten Broon's bizarre proposal about everyone in the GB land flying a union jack in their gardens.
Posted by: craigy, s lanarkshire on 1:05am Wed 1 Aug 07
not to mention browns rumoured plans to regionalise the minimum wage, with cuts in scotland, wales, n. ireland and the north of england to around £4.80 ph and a rise to £7 ph in london....any heard anymore on this?
not to mention browns rumoured plans to regionalise the minimum wage, with cuts in scotland, wales, n. ireland and the north of england to around £4.80 ph and a rise to £7 ph in london....any heard anymore on this?
