What’s the story with... atheism?
Is atheism the new opiate of the masses? The momentum for this question had begun long before the new Liberal Democrat leader, Nick Clegg, this week answered the BBC Radio 5 Live question, "Do you believe in God?", with a simple: "No." It was already under way before everyone forgot to feel affronted by the influx of seasonal e-cards wishing us all a Happy Holiday, and then comprehensively failed to notice that the mighty M&S had left out Jesus from its 2007 Christmas card collection. The traditional Christmas school holiday period had already morphed into "Winterval" in an increasing number of Scottish local authorities.
Earlier this month, a survey commissioned by the public theology think-tank Theos revealed that more than one-quarter of British adults could not identify Bethlehem as Jesus's birthplace, guessing Nazareth or Jerusalem instead. Only 12% could answer all four questions about the Christmas story correctly.
The Theos survey followed an earlier Sunday newspaper revelation that only one in five schools planned to perform a Nativity play this year. The apparent de-Christianising of modern multicultural Britain compelled at least one commentator yesterday to describe 2007 as the year "the swelling tide of unbelief crashed further through the structures of our cultural architecture".
Commenting on his survey, Paul Woolley, director of Theos - which was launched last year with the support of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, and the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor - said: "Such survey results do not prove the existence of an atheist plot to take Christ out of Christmas. The argument that the growth of religious pluralism demands of us particular sensitivity and consideration of others is a serious one - even when made by secularists who are willing to use some faith groups (with whom they have little affiliation or sympathy) to silence others.
"The result, however, is that in our desire not to offend we water everything down to an inoffensive but characterless lowest common denominator and, in the process, erode the public's knowledge of the very festivals that an educated, plural society is supposed to understand and recognise."
In an online debate, Woolley went on to say that in the case of Christmas, ignorance threatened to erode the cultural ties that bind, and secondly to remove some of the few remaining obstacles to a fully consumerised society. And he conceded: "No-one seriously thinks that being a Christian or a member of the established Church is the same thing as being British today."
One of the things that made Mr Clegg's atheistic declaration remarkable was that it distanced him from PM Gordon "son of the manse" Brown, the church-going Anglican Conservative leader David Cameron and one of his own predecessors, David Steel, also a son of the manse. But even more remarkable, perhaps, is the lack of outrage at his statement.
Perhaps the way had already been paved by the UK release in November of The Golden Compass, the first in children's author Philip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy to be made into a Hollywood film. Co-starring Daniel Craig and the self-professed Catholic Nicole Kidman, it is number one in the UK film charts - despite being criticised by the Vatican newspaper l'Osservatore Romano as being "the most anti-Christmas film possible" owing to its anti-God storyline: the sinister, controlling forces from which the orphan child Lyra Belacqua attempts to save the world bear a remarkable resemblence to organised religion. Pullman has stated that his purpose in writing his books was to undermine belief in God.
The Vatican's main objection to the film is its abandonment of hope. "In Pullman's world, hope simply does not exist because there is no salvation," said l'Osservatore's editorial.
Hope, of course, is the key to Christian faith. In his Christmas message, Mario Conti, Archbishop of Glasgow, reminds the faithful of His Holiness Pope Benedict's assertion that we are "saved by hope".
Those who choose to cling to their
old-fashioned religious faith in the
rising tide of atheism will no doubt say "Amen" to that.
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Posted by: Dee, Glasgow on 12:09am Sat 22 Dec 07
"The traditional Christmas school holiday period had already morphed into "Winterval" in an increasing number of Scottish local authorities."
Which Local Authorities Cate? I've not seen this phrase in Scottish authorities yet? Name them.
You are entitled to your views, kindly don't present them as fact. Those who need to know are aware that there is an agenda to remove God from the whole equation. Do get on with it and stop boring us with stupid columns like this. It gets tedious. And don't you wish you were important enough to be given more important things to write about by the Herald?
"The traditional Christmas school holiday period had already morphed into "Winterval" in an increasing number of Scottish local authorities."
Which Local Authorities Cate? I've not seen this phrase in Scottish authorities yet? Name them.
You are entitled to your views, kindly don't present them as fact. Those who need to know are aware that there is an agenda to remove God from the whole equation. Do get on with it and stop boring us with stupid columns like this. It gets tedious. And don't you wish you were important enough to be given more important things to write about by the Herald?
Posted by: 123, Baden Baden on 1:22am Sat 22 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Dee[/bold] wrote:
"The traditional Christmas school holiday period had already morphed into "Winterval" in an increasing number of Scottish local authorities." Which Local Authorities Cate? I've not seen this phrase in Scottish authorities yet? Name them. You are entitled to your views, kindly don't present them as fact. Those who need to know are aware that there is an agenda to remove God from the whole equation. Do get on with it and stop boring us with stupid columns like this. It gets tedious. And don't you wish you were important enough to be given more important things to write about by the Herald? [/quote] Isn't it surprising how many believers in a loving god can be very unpleasant?
Dee wrote:
"The traditional Christmas school holiday period had already morphed into "Winterval" in an increasing number of Scottish local authorities." Which Local Authorities Cate? I've not seen this phrase in Scottish authorities yet? Name them. You are entitled to your views, kindly don't present them as fact. Those who need to know are aware that there is an agenda to remove God from the whole equation. Do get on with it and stop boring us with stupid columns like this. It gets tedious. And don't you wish you were important enough to be given more important things to write about by the Herald?
Isn't it surprising how many believers in a loving god can be very unpleasant?
Posted by: McGinty on 2:04am Sat 22 Dec 07
Isn't it surprising...what's the story with how so many readers and commenters on threads on UK papers are sarcastic, vitriolic, namecalling, pointscoring, mudslinging, unpleasant...let the vitriol begin...
God Bless you all,
Merry Christmas
Isn't it surprising...what's the story with how so many readers and commenters on threads on UK papers are sarcastic, vitriolic, namecalling, pointscoring, mudslinging, unpleasant...let the vitriol begin...
God Bless you all,
Merry Christmas
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 2:50am Sat 22 Dec 07
Unleash hell!
Posted by: BlackSun, Los Angeles, CA on 6:25am Sat 22 Dec 07
"The Vatican's main objection to the film is its abandonment of hope. "In Pullman's world, hope simply does not exist because there is no salvation," said l'Osservatore's editorial."
The editorial needs a translation to show why the Catholic church is so worried.
Translation: "In Pullman's world, there is no hope for the Catholic Church, because people realize they don't need a bunch of sexually repressed child-molesting old men to tell them about life, the universe, and everything, and [bold]offer false hopes of salvation[/bold]. In Pullman's world, young people figure out they are actually pretty smart on their own, and they can learn to listen to their inner voice of conscience, and actually learn to accept their sexuality and feel good about it, develop an internal code of ethics, follow their own free will, take responsibility for their choices, and live the rest of their lives free of anger, denial, guilt, and fear."
Imagine that.
"The Vatican's main objection to the film is its abandonment of hope. "In Pullman's world, hope simply does not exist because there is no salvation," said l'Osservatore's editorial."
The editorial needs a translation to show why the Catholic church is so worried.
Translation: "In Pullman's world, there is no hope for the Catholic Church, because people realize they don't need a bunch of sexually repressed child-molesting old men to tell them about life, the universe, and everything, and
offer false hopes of salvation. In Pullman's world, young people figure out they are actually pretty smart on their own, and they can learn to listen to their inner voice of conscience, and actually learn to accept their sexuality and feel good about it, develop an internal code of ethics, follow their own free will, take responsibility for their choices, and live the rest of their lives free of anger, denial, guilt, and fear."
Imagine that.
Posted by: donald, glasgow on 7:21am Sat 22 Dec 07
Football is the opium of religion.
Football is the opium of religion.
Posted by: Vronsky, Scotland on 10:23am Sat 22 Dec 07
" in our desire not to offend we water everything down to an inoffensive but characterless lowest common denominator"
What an abstruse construction to mean simply that the religious are now constrained by civil law. Sorry, guys, no more witch-burning, no more ecclesiastical torture, no more pogroms against the infidels, heretics, homosexuals or other arbitrarily defined deviants, no more power to withhold anasthesia from women in labour, no more support for slavery, no more cheer-leading for bloody wars, no more rationalising of social inequality ('the poor man at his gate'), no more kowtowing to privilege, no more indoctrination of children, no more (or at least a bit less) institutionalised child-abuse.
Saved by hope? What hope would that be - the usual Pie in the Sky? We certainly need saving but only a rational secular society can do it - superstitions of various sorts (god, the market, growth, the Union) are the problem, not the solution. Here endeth the secular message for Midwinter Solstice.
" in our desire not to offend we water everything down to an inoffensive but characterless lowest common denominator"
What an abstruse construction to mean simply that the religious are now constrained by civil law. Sorry, guys, no more witch-burning, no more ecclesiastical torture, no more pogroms against the infidels, heretics, homosexuals or other arbitrarily defined deviants, no more power to withhold anasthesia from women in labour, no more support for slavery, no more cheer-leading for bloody wars, no more rationalising of social inequality ('the poor man at his gate'), no more kowtowing to privilege, no more indoctrination of children, no more (or at least a bit less) institutionalised child-abuse.
Saved by hope? What hope would that be - the usual Pie in the Sky? We certainly need saving but only a rational secular society can do it - superstitions of various sorts (god, the market, growth, the Union) are the problem, not the solution. Here endeth the secular message for Midwinter Solstice.
Posted by: Fred, Inverclyde on 10:43am Sat 22 Dec 07
It is indeed depressing that only a quarter of the adult population are aware that there is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Jesus was actually born in Bethlehem. It says little for our education system that this eronious belief still persists in 75% of the population.
Oh and Winterval was a programme to encourage shoppers to use city centre shops in Birmingham rather than out of town malls. It was never intended to replace Christmas, indeed Birmingham City Council had a whopping great Merry Christmas sign on the town hall and all the usual festive lights etc. The idea that Winterval is part of some secular conspiracy to outlaw Christmas is unmittigated tosh.
As to the Golden Compass being top of the film charts regardless of the opinion of the Catholic Church, well good frankly. Which films the majority of non-Catholic UK families choose to take their children to is none of the Catholic Church's **** business.
It is indeed depressing that only a quarter of the adult population are aware that there is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Jesus was actually born in Bethlehem. It says little for our education system that this eronious belief still persists in 75% of the population.
Oh and Winterval was a programme to encourage shoppers to use city centre shops in Birmingham rather than out of town malls. It was never intended to replace Christmas, indeed Birmingham City Council had a whopping great Merry Christmas sign on the town hall and all the usual festive lights etc. The idea that Winterval is part of some secular conspiracy to outlaw Christmas is unmittigated tosh.
As to the Golden Compass being top of the film charts regardless of the opinion of the Catholic Church, well good frankly. Which films the majority of non-Catholic UK families choose to take their children to is none of the Catholic Church's **** business.
Posted by: Shirley Hodge, Glasgow on 11:05am Sat 22 Dec 07
I would like to expand on Fred from Inverclyde's statement in his comment that there is not one shred of evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem to add that there is not one shred of empirical evidence that Jesus ever even existed.
As to the original question whats the story with atheism? I am not aware of any story but for the sake of clarity atheism is that state of human intelligence whereby one opts to apply logical, rational thought to the superstitions that are called religion. I have always wondered at what point human beings give up their ability to think rationally and logically for the purpose of adopting belief in a supernatural being or beings called gods. I realize that much of this comes from prostlyzing of innocent children by parents but at some point in their lives those children have the option of casting off the ignorance that is religion and one does wonder why more do not do so.
I would like to expand on Fred from Inverclyde's statement in his comment that there is not one shred of evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem to add that there is not one shred of empirical evidence that Jesus ever even existed.
As to the original question whats the story with atheism? I am not aware of any story but for the sake of clarity atheism is that state of human intelligence whereby one opts to apply logical, rational thought to the superstitions that are called religion. I have always wondered at what point human beings give up their ability to think rationally and logically for the purpose of adopting belief in a supernatural being or beings called gods. I realize that much of this comes from prostlyzing of innocent children by parents but at some point in their lives those children have the option of casting off the ignorance that is religion and one does wonder why more do not do so.
Posted by: Mark N, London on 11:35am Sat 22 Dec 07
Cate says: "But even more remarkable, perhaps, is the lack of outrage at his statement."
Only 7% of the population are in church on an average Sunday, and apoplectic Christians are already hoarse due to ill-founded yells of oppression. In a country where this 7% control the majority of schools, and have a frankly Machiavellian mandated unrepresentative presence in government, it's not really surprising that the huge majority of people reserve their outrage for things of physical consequence, not metaphysical garbled thinking.
A demand from a Christian for more outrage is oddly Islamist in it's nature. I take it this is a case of jealousy?
Cate says: "But even more remarkable, perhaps, is the lack of outrage at his statement."
Only 7% of the population are in church on an average Sunday, and apoplectic Christians are already hoarse due to ill-founded yells of oppression. In a country where this 7% control the majority of schools, and have a frankly Machiavellian mandated unrepresentative presence in government, it's not really surprising that the huge majority of people reserve their outrage for things of physical consequence, not metaphysical garbled thinking.
A demand from a Christian for more outrage is oddly Islamist in it's nature. I take it this is a case of jealousy?
Posted by: John Holmes, Newcastle on 11:51am Sat 22 Dec 07
"But even more remarkable, perhaps, is the lack of outrage at his statement."
Doesn't that tell you something Cate. Its only a minority of religious bigots such as yourself that could possibly find any reason to be outraged with a politician giving a straight unambiguous one word answer to a direct question.
"But even more remarkable, perhaps, is the lack of outrage at his statement."
Doesn't that tell you something Cate. Its only a minority of religious bigots such as yourself that could possibly find any reason to be outraged with a politician giving a straight unambiguous one word answer to a direct question.
Posted by: SA, Glasgow on 12:52pm Sat 22 Dec 07
Not the tedious old 'Winterval' canard being trotted out again. I thought any intelligent journalist would by now know to avoid this sh*te for the barrel-scraping urban myth that it so patently is. Did I log on to the Daily Mail's website by mistake? As a previous poster wrote, name those local authorities.
Not the tedious old 'Winterval' canard being trotted out again. I thought any intelligent journalist would by now know to avoid this sh*te for the barrel-scraping urban myth that it so patently is. Did I log on to the Daily Mail's website by mistake? As a previous poster wrote, name those local authorities.
Posted by: Alasdair SIMPSON on 1:22pm Sat 22 Dec 07
Cate, you're way off the ball. Get a life. Who wants people in funny (very expensive) hats and funny (very expensive) coats telling the huge majority how best to behave if they wish to be first in the queue for 'everlasting life'. It's really very sad. To be upbeat it'll probably disappear this century, anyway that's my hope. The best one to have.
Cate, you're way off the ball. Get a life. Who wants people in funny (very expensive) hats and funny (very expensive) coats telling the huge majority how best to behave if they wish to be first in the queue for 'everlasting life'. It's really very sad. To be upbeat it'll probably disappear this century, anyway that's my hope. The best one to have.
Posted by: Alasdair SIMPSON on 1:22pm Sat 22 Dec 07
Cate, you're way off the ball. Get a life. Who wants people in funny (very expensive) hats and funny (very expensive) coats telling the huge majority how best to behave if they wish to be first in the queue for 'everlasting life'. It's really very sad. To be upbeat it'll probably disappear this century, anyway that's my hope. The best one to have.
Cate, you're way off the ball. Get a life. Who wants people in funny (very expensive) hats and funny (very expensive) coats telling the huge majority how best to behave if they wish to be first in the queue for 'everlasting life'. It's really very sad. To be upbeat it'll probably disappear this century, anyway that's my hope. The best one to have.
Posted by: Alexander MacAllister, Oslo on 1:38pm Sat 22 Dec 07
Even since the ancient Greeks, we have tried to ignore the irrational, supernatural aspects of the human condition at our peril. We may even argue that the surge in binge drinking is part of the spiriuality problem (along with other contributing factors, of course).
As a Buddhist myself, and a strong supporter of the evolution theorists over (un)intelligent (fairy story)design, I still think that we need to rethink a credible alternative to religious dogma. There ARE miraculous aspects to peoplekind, as a part of Nature, and there is lots of room for spirituality and wonder in this universe. And we haven't even started looking in the other universes yet...
Even since the ancient Greeks, we have tried to ignore the irrational, supernatural aspects of the human condition at our peril. We may even argue that the surge in binge drinking is part of the spiriuality problem (along with other contributing factors, of course).
As a Buddhist myself, and a strong supporter of the evolution theorists over (un)intelligent (fairy story)design, I still think that we need to rethink a credible alternative to religious dogma. There ARE miraculous aspects to peoplekind, as a part of Nature, and there is lots of room for spirituality and wonder in this universe. And we haven't even started looking in the other universes yet...
Posted by: Observer on 2:07pm Sat 22 Dec 07
The de-christianising of Britain has got nothing to do with multi culturalism. People have just stopped believing. No one has forced them to do that, they just have. Anyway christmas has got nothing to do with christ anyway it is a winter festival to cheer us all up. Long may that continue. Each to their own and have a good one.
The de-christianising of Britain has got nothing to do with multi culturalism. People have just stopped believing. No one has forced them to do that, they just have. Anyway christmas has got nothing to do with christ anyway it is a winter festival to cheer us all up. Long may that continue. Each to their own and have a good one.
Posted by: iain morrison, nairn on 2:10pm Sat 22 Dec 07
"Those who choose to cling to their old-fashioned religious faith in the rising tide of atheism will no doubt say "Amen" to that."
Blind faith in the face of reason - oh well done.
Xmas was a pagen festival highjacked by early Christians to popularies their gaith and is in no way related to the birth of Jesus, which if truth be told is a date unknown.
"Those who choose to cling to their old-fashioned religious faith in the rising tide of atheism will no doubt say "Amen" to that."
Blind faith in the face of reason - oh well done.
Xmas was a pagen festival highjacked by early Christians to popularies their gaith and is in no way related to the birth of Jesus, which if truth be told is a date unknown.
Posted by: Colin Garwood, Wells-next-the-Sea, Norfolk on 3:27pm Sat 22 Dec 07
Isn't it remarkable that a God who doesn't exist and a Christ who was never born and a faith that is false have been able to change the lives of millions from evil to good? Or was Mother Theresa just a deluded idiot? Christmas is a good time to remember that the proof of the pudding is in the eating! Modern China (after years of atheistic communism) is experiencing a rapid growth of the Christian Church with a current estimate of 40 million believers. It is said that "in the face of growing material wealth people are seeking to satisfy their spiritual needs, to look for happiness for the soul". Perhaps some of your unhappy contributers would like to pursue that quest!
Isn't it remarkable that a God who doesn't exist and a Christ who was never born and a faith that is false have been able to change the lives of millions from evil to good? Or was Mother Theresa just a deluded idiot? Christmas is a good time to remember that the proof of the pudding is in the eating! Modern China (after years of atheistic communism) is experiencing a rapid growth of the Christian Church with a current estimate of 40 million believers. It is said that "in the face of growing material wealth people are seeking to satisfy their spiritual needs, to look for happiness for the soul". Perhaps some of your unhappy contributers would like to pursue that quest!
Posted by: Godfrey, York on 6:26pm Sat 22 Dec 07
I'm surprised that Mother Theresa is still held up as an iconic figure in the catholic church. Given that she had millions of pounds at her disposal, she still preferred to let her patients suffer as she saw this as the way to true enlightenment.
Except of course when she needed treatment herself, and was straight on the plane to California for the best modern medicine.
Oh and as for christianity changing peoples lives from evil to good - have you any evidence for this Colin, or is it just that those who are non believers are bad people?
I'm surprised that Mother Theresa is still held up as an iconic figure in the catholic church. Given that she had millions of pounds at her disposal, she still preferred to let her patients suffer as she saw this as the way to true enlightenment.
Except of course when she needed treatment herself, and was straight on the plane to California for the best modern medicine.
Oh and as for christianity changing peoples lives from evil to good - have you any evidence for this Colin, or is it just that those who are non believers are bad people?
Posted by: iain morrison, nairn on 6:44pm Sat 22 Dec 07
"Colin Garwood, Wells-next-the-Sea, Norfolk on 3:27pm today
Isn't it remarkable that a God who doesn't exist and a Christ who was never born and a faith that is false have been able to change the lives of millions from evil to good?(Any idea how bigoted that sounds muppet) Or was Mother Theresa just a deluded idiot? (Yes and a self seeking one at that)
"Colin Garwood, Wells-next-the-Sea, Norfolk on 3:27pm today
Isn't it remarkable that a God who doesn't exist and a Christ who was never born and a faith that is false have been able to change the lives of millions from evil to good?(Any idea how bigoted that sounds muppet) Or was Mother Theresa just a deluded idiot? (Yes and a self seeking one at that)
Posted by: BlackSun, Los Angeles, CA on 6:47pm Sat 22 Dec 07
"Or was Mother Theresa just a deluded idiot?"
Actually, she was a sadist (withheld pain meds from the dying) and a closet unbeliever (but hypocritically professed her belief to keep getting contributions which she used not for the dying, but to spread her cancerous non-faith).
"Or was Mother Theresa just a deluded idiot?"
Actually, she was a sadist (withheld pain meds from the dying) and a closet unbeliever (but hypocritically professed her belief to keep getting contributions which she used not for the dying, but to spread her cancerous non-faith).
Posted by: Jill, Airth on 9:02pm Sat 22 Dec 07
This article isn't about atheism at all. It seems to meander in and out of a bit of political commentary and some scorn at the de-Christianising of Christmas. Very poor journalism indeed.
The most interesting aspect of the article is the 'The Vatican's main objection to the film is its abandonment of hope. "In Pullman's world, hope simply does not exist because there is no salvation," said l'Osservatore's editorial.' This roughly translates as 'it makes me very sad to think that there's no life after death. Therefore I'll make up and believe in an afterlife so I can feel better. Believing in it doesn't actually mean that there will be an afterlife, but as long as it makes me feel better, that's fine.'
For more death defying feats of logic on a similar theme, check out http://www.godlessge
eks.com/LINKS/GodPro
of.htm
This article isn't about atheism at all. It seems to meander in and out of a bit of political commentary and some scorn at the de-Christianising of Christmas. Very poor journalism indeed.
The most interesting aspect of the article is the 'The Vatican's main objection to the film is its abandonment of hope. "In Pullman's world, hope simply does not exist because there is no salvation," said l'Osservatore's editorial.' This roughly translates as 'it makes me very sad to think that there's no life after death. Therefore I'll make up and believe in an afterlife so I can feel better. Believing in it doesn't actually mean that there will be an afterlife, but as long as it makes me feel better, that's fine.'
For more death defying feats of logic on a similar theme, check out http://www.godlessge
eks.com/LINKS/GodPro
of.htm
Posted by: Chris Benton, Bath on 9:05pm Sat 22 Dec 07
Christmas has been replaced with a secularised, commercialised, hedonistic revel, from which Jesus has been cut away. Christianity has been replaced with food, drink, presents and partying.
Sounds good to me! F*** Jesus and pass the beer...
Christmas has been replaced with a secularised, commercialised, hedonistic revel, from which Jesus has been cut away. Christianity has been replaced with food, drink, presents and partying.
Sounds good to me! F*** Jesus and pass the beer...
Posted by: sheldon, Canadian in Cairo on 9:18pm Sat 22 Dec 07
The level of debate here is actually refreshing. I shudder to think of the debate which would follow from a similar story in an American newspaper, or a Canadian one for that matter (Harper has them feeling the faint glimmer of real power). I'd like to follow on what "Observer" said in regards to Christmas not having anything to do with Jesus anymore. I consider my beliefs somewhere along the lines of secular humanism but I love Christmas...does that make me a hypocrite? Not really, just someone that likes coloured lights, drinking with family and friends and giving things to people so I can watch them smile. We really don't need any Palestinians nailed to wood to enjoy these things. The date of Christmas should give us some clue as to its origin anyway. As I understand it the fact that it is only three or four days after the solistice is no coincidence, it began as a pagan winter celebration. These sort of festivals are always transitory and open to new interpretations anyway (Santa? Reindeer?) I say keep the name and all of the good stuff and just relax and enjoy the season. Worrying about the Christ in Christmas is about as relevant as worrying about the fun in fundamentalist.
The level of debate here is actually refreshing. I shudder to think of the debate which would follow from a similar story in an American newspaper, or a Canadian one for that matter (Harper has them feeling the faint glimmer of real power). I'd like to follow on what "Observer" said in regards to Christmas not having anything to do with Jesus anymore. I consider my beliefs somewhere along the lines of secular humanism but I love Christmas...does that make me a hypocrite? Not really, just someone that likes coloured lights, drinking with family and friends and giving things to people so I can watch them smile. We really don't need any Palestinians nailed to wood to enjoy these things. The date of Christmas should give us some clue as to its origin anyway. As I understand it the fact that it is only three or four days after the solistice is no coincidence, it began as a pagan winter celebration. These sort of festivals are always transitory and open to new interpretations anyway (Santa? Reindeer?) I say keep the name and all of the good stuff and just relax and enjoy the season. Worrying about the Christ in Christmas is about as relevant as worrying about the fun in fundamentalist.
Posted by: Jim, Irvine on 10:11pm Sat 22 Dec 07
So the Libdems are pointing the road to Atheism in The British State.
I presume this means a Fundemental change in the British State
Constitution . No Royal Family .
The Queen is nominally the Religious Head of Anglican Church.
The 'Act of Settlement ' would be scrapped as this is denying the
Fundemental Rights of Cathoiics to be on Equal Terms with all their
Fellow Tax Payers. Bring it on.
So the Libdems are pointing the road to Atheism in The British State.
I presume this means a Fundemental change in the British State
Constitution . No Royal Family .
The Queen is nominally the Religious Head of Anglican Church.
The 'Act of Settlement ' would be scrapped as this is denying the
Fundemental Rights of Cathoiics to be on Equal Terms with all their
Fellow Tax Payers. Bring it on.
Posted by: Jay, Glasgow on 9:32pm Sun 23 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Godfrey[/bold] wrote:
I\'m surprised that Mother Theresa is still held up as an iconic figure in the catholic church. Given that she had millions of pounds at her disposal, she still preferred to let her patients suffer as she saw this as the way to true enlightenment. Except of course when she needed treatment herself, and was straight on the plane to California for the best modern medicine. Oh and as for christianity changing peoples lives from evil to good - have you any evidence for this Colin, or is it just that those who are non believers are bad people?[/quote] Godfrey, what are you on???????????? What an absurd statement to make. I don't mind if you're a non believer but I do think telling shocking lies is a bad thing yes, definitely. Mother Teresa's work was respected world wide and that is a fact.
And Fred, I'm sure you are extremely depressed that "only a quarter of adults are aware...............
." blah blah blah. What you should have said is that only a quarter of adults "believe" along the lines you do yourself. That does not make you right. But the arrogance of people like you never fails to astonish me on questions like this. You just can't cope with people having spiritual beliefs full stop. Now THAT is depressing. You go on about christians and yet the aggression of people like you isn't disguised even slightly towards believers or your contempt either. Most of the people I know who have no spiritual beliefs are at least decent enough to allow others to make their own choice on the subject. Whereas you want your view to dominate, you must be right.........and they say christians are the ones doing the brainwashing!
Godfrey wrote:
I\'m surprised that Mother Theresa is still held up as an iconic figure in the catholic church. Given that she had millions of pounds at her disposal, she still preferred to let her patients suffer as she saw this as the way to true enlightenment. Except of course when she needed treatment herself, and was straight on the plane to California for the best modern medicine. Oh and as for christianity changing peoples lives from evil to good - have you any evidence for this Colin, or is it just that those who are non believers are bad people?
Godfrey, what are you on???????????? What an absurd statement to make. I don't mind if you're a non believer but I do think telling shocking lies is a bad thing yes, definitely. Mother Teresa's work was respected world wide and that is a fact.
And Fred, I'm sure you are extremely depressed that "only a quarter of adults are aware...............
." blah blah blah. What you should have said is that only a quarter of adults "believe" along the lines you do yourself. That does not make you right. But the arrogance of people like you never fails to astonish me on questions like this. You just can't cope with people having spiritual beliefs full stop. Now THAT is depressing. You go on about christians and yet the aggression of people like you isn't disguised even slightly towards believers or your contempt either. Most of the people I know who have no spiritual beliefs are at least decent enough to allow others to make their own choice on the subject. Whereas you want your view to dominate, you must be right.........and they say christians are the ones doing the brainwashing!
Posted by: David, SE on 9:38pm Sun 23 Dec 07
"People have just stopped believing."
I think a more accurate statement would be "Some people have stopped believing."
"People have just stopped believing."
I think a more accurate statement would be "Some people have stopped believing."
Posted by: Strp, Norway on 1:44am Mon 24 Dec 07
[italic]"Hope, of course, is the key to Christian faith. In his Christmas message, Mario Conti, Archbishop of Glasgow, reminds the faithful of His Holiness Pope Benedict's assertion that we are "saved by hope"."[/italic]
What kind of hope is there in Hell? They hope for a better place, but torment themselves with the threat and fears of Hell. I think it's perfeclty fine to take away their hope when we also take away their irrational fears.
Endless bliss + endless pain = ?
"Hope, of course, is the key to Christian faith. In his Christmas message, Mario Conti, Archbishop of Glasgow, reminds the faithful of His Holiness Pope Benedict's assertion that we are "saved by hope"."
What kind of hope is there in Hell? They hope for a better place, but torment themselves with the threat and fears of Hell. I think it's perfeclty fine to take away their hope when we also take away their irrational fears.
Endless bliss + endless pain = ?
Posted by: G, Glasgow on 9:29am Mon 24 Dec 07
BUT - What [bold]IF[/bold] God did exist? http://www.exist.org
.uk
BUT - What
IF God did exist? http://www.exist.org
.uk
Posted by: Carl Richardson, Leed on 10:43am Mon 24 Dec 07
I do not know how Christianity or to call it by its true name, the religion of suffering, can dare declare its self a bastion of hope when it’s only achievement seems to be the creation of a sense of worthlessness in people. It teaches people, including children, falsehoods such as the idea that they are vile creatures who deserve misery (the concept of sin) while at the same time telling them the Church has the path to salvation. It artificially creates a false sense hope where none is needed – it’s a despicable entity and the faster it dies the better.
I do not know how Christianity or to call it by its true name, the religion of suffering, can dare declare its self a bastion of hope when it’s only achievement seems to be the creation of a sense of worthlessness in people. It teaches people, including children, falsehoods such as the idea that they are vile creatures who deserve misery (the concept of sin) while at the same time telling them the Church has the path to salvation. It artificially creates a false sense hope where none is needed – it’s a despicable entity and the faster it dies the better.
Posted by: Valerie Cantone, New York City on 4:55pm Mon 24 Dec 07
As an atheist in NYC, I can live my life openly and without fear. However, evangelical christianity seems to rule the Bible-Belt (southern states), and the mid-west. This is why I felt compelled to write in and tell you all how **** refreshing it is to read how the majority of you feel. And I agree with Sheldon from Canada, that the reader response in America would be vastly different; filled with vitriolic, evangelic, christian fundamentalist bullsh*t.
"Thank god I'm an Atheist" --Luis Bunuel
As an atheist in NYC, I can live my life openly and without fear. However, evangelical christianity seems to rule the Bible-Belt (southern states), and the mid-west. This is why I felt compelled to write in and tell you all how **** refreshing it is to read how the majority of you feel. And I agree with Sheldon from Canada, that the reader response in America would be vastly different; filled with vitriolic, evangelic, christian fundamentalist bullsh*t.
"Thank god I'm an Atheist" --Luis Bunuel
Posted by: Yok Finney, Ross-shire on 5:22pm Wed 26 Dec 07
I respect atheists and atheism. Consumerism, no. Or it could be more glamorously cried ananchistic hedonism. And belief in a bizarre deity called "market forces".
I respect atheists and atheism. Consumerism, no. Or it could be more glamorously cried ananchistic hedonism. And belief in a bizarre deity called "market forces".
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